High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reflow ovens, hot plates, pick and place machines, test rigs, solder stencils. Small scale manufacturing and prototyping tool discussion.

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Postby TAUTIC » Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:18 pm

DwayneR wrote:For me, Ian *is* a trusted source and I have absolutely NO problem sending money where he tells me to send it because I am convinced that he is NOT a scam artist. In other words, I feel that he has a massively-positive reputation, based on his past history.


Oh absolutely, i'm on board if Ian is pointing where to send the money. I have a few last minute decisions to make and can see myself choosing soon.

Glad to hear you're happy with the purchase as well, the few videos i've seen seem very promising. Thank you for confirming and for the quick reply.
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Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Postby hardcore » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:57 am

Be VERY careful about this company, Whilst I to trust Ian
I recently tried to do business with this company, for what I considered to be a reasonable quantity of machines.

They are by far the worst company I have had to deal with, they are off hand even to the point of being rude and that is in Chinese via a Chinese contact.
Both the Shenzhen 'agent' and the head office in Hang Zhou seemed to have a similar attitude, really really impolite even stating that "They don't do business in US$".

The factory representative basically said if I did not go in person and discuss business then they were not interested.

So I would guess if that is the attitude when you try to give them business, then service requests or support are going to be non-existent.

so I'm going to wait until the market gains a few more players, then find a long term partner to do business with.....
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Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Postby patc » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:04 am

impressive.
Last edited by patc on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Postby Handi » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:49 am

Hello

I ordered the TM220A on Aliexpress two weeks ago and is having a good experience with the machine. The machine arrived in few days in France without problem. I received the machine configured in english with the english manual and PCB test card and program. Thanks Ian for your videos and tutorial. I'm using the export script for eagle and it seems to work perfectly. It would be really awesome if we could charge our own stack configuration with a config file.

I have three questions about the machine :
I'm not able to find how to configure the origin of the PCB using the joystick. Do we have to do it just with measuring ? Can't we use laser?

When I edit a file with the menu Edit, i change a value somewhere (like skip 0 -> 1 ) for a component, press enter and the modification is not saved ... Why ?

Finally, how do we do to use the 2 pick head at the same time ? My test program only use one type of component with one head but it just uses only one pick head ...


Apart from this, my only problem is that my PCB have components where the machine have the grip to hold the pcb, so I will not be able to 100% pnp my board ... I will have to add panelization border to my card next time !

Anyway, the precision seems awesome, and this is good investment for a professional hardware engineer like me who create twice a month 20 proto of a different PCB.
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Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Postby Zeta » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:24 am

hardcore wrote:They are by far the worst company I have had to deal with, they are off hand even to the point of being rude and that is in Chinese via a Chinese contact.
Both the Shenzhen 'agent' and the head office in Hang Zhou seemed to have a similar attitude, really really impolite even stating that "They don't do business in US$".

Most probably they are a company aiming to serve the local market. Therefore, they only accept local currency and are in no way interested in (and most probably are not prepared to deal with) all the problems money exchange brings. They have probably thought you were impolite for demanding them take US$ too :P

hardcore wrote:The factory representative basically said if I did not go in person and discuss business then they were not interested.

Shocking :O
Maybe they though the cuantities where actually small for them. Or They probably thought you were some kind of a scammer or something.
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Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Postby teletypeguy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:05 pm

and a 'nuther PnP -- a plywood-framed $3700 kit, from Texas I think (kinda slow, but large pcb area and lots of reels):
(unsure of accuracy)

http://buildyourcnc.com/PickandPlaceMac ... dFrog.aspx
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Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Postby hardcore » Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:44 pm

The issue is
I can do business both in USD OR RMB all perfectly legally since my banking facilities allow both AND I have facilities to handle 'proper' shipping from China
I know some of my ex-staff live in the province of the 'factory', I'm going to see if one of them is willing to go check it out, because I get the feeling something is not right, since the staff I allocated to look at this case has over 15 Years of experience dealing with difficult China factories and she was upset by the attitude.
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Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Postby matseng » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:13 pm

teletypeguy wrote:and a 'nuther PnP -- a plywood-framed $3700 kit, from Texas I think (kinda slow, but large pcb area and lots of reels): (unsure of accuracy) http://buildyourcnc.com/PickandPlaceMac ... dFrog.aspx

Hmm... I think I prefer a prebuild metal Chinese PnP that does 6000 parts per hour over a PnP kit made out of wood from an US company that does about 400 parts per hour for the same price.

It probably is nice to have 28 reels instead of only 15, but at at that speed I can manually place 0805/0603 discretes faster.
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Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Postby jipilabont » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:33 pm

Loved so much the machine trough your clip that i bought one directly in china the reflow oven too. Thanks for alll the info you gave us.
Should receive in Quebec next month. Just hoping..
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Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Postby DwayneR » Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:00 pm

I had previously mentioned that my TM240A had a defective vacuum pump when I received the unit. Although I got the pump working, I suspected that it would not be reliable and asked NeoDen for a replacement. I also mentioned that I had not received the demo PCB and Mia said that they would send one along with the pump.

The package with the replacement pump and demo PCB arrived Thursday. I'm not sure what ship method they used but the package arrived at least 6 business days earlier than I expected.

I didn't even bother installing the new pump (the original is still working), but instead loaded up the first 3 reel positions with tapes containing 0402, 0603, 0805 components. As it turns out, I should have also loaded up a reel of 1206 components - but I'll get to that later.

Anyway, inserted the SD card and loaded the SMTDemo.csv file from the card. Hit the 'Step' button - and immediately noticed major problems. The tape would not feed because the pin was centered at the edge of the tape instead of over the tow of feed holes and the nozzle was attempting to pick the part up from the area between the actual component and the feed holes. Oops, sez me - I must have somehow messed up the calibration. So: I fired off an email message to Mia at NeoDen with an extremely detailed description of what I was seeing. Because I knew that I wouldn't receive a response from NeoDen until the next day, I proceeded to mess with the various manual setup parameters as well as the calibration settings for the machine.

I was able to get the nozzle to be centered over the component but nothing that I tried was able to move the needle to be centered over the feed holes. So I gave up, restored the machine to its original settings, and waited for NeoDen to get back to me.

I received a message from Mia's private email address - he said that their engineer thought that I might have messed up something mechanical while I had the machine apart. The engineer recorded a video (in Chinese) that showed very clearly what I needed to look out for and showed how to fix the problem if in fact the problem was what they thought.

Turns out they nailed the problem exactly. If you recall, I mentioned that if you power the machine up while the main baseplate is standing vertical and sitting on your bench surface, it was necessary to lift the bottom edge of the baseplate off the work bench with a piece of 2 x 4 lumber or something similar. I also mentioned that the stepper motor had enough torque to cause the belt to stretch and skip teeth if you didn't do this.

I know this, of course, because that is exactly what happened to me the first time that I powered the machine up while it was standing vertically on my bench. But when the belt skipped teeth, the pickup head was at the homing position of bottom-left on the baseplate. As a result, the entire gantry became 'racked' - the right-hand belt skipped more teeth than the left hand belt. Of course, I didn't realize this had happened.

The fix was simple: removed power from the machine, then manually moved the gantry to the front of the machine and observed that there was a gap of about 2mm on the left side between the gantry and the front stop while the right side of the gantry was right tight against its stop. Backed the gantry up a little bit, slid a screwdriver shaft between the right-hand stop and the gantry, then forced the left belt to skip first one tooth, then one more. Now the left side of the gantry was right tight up against the front stop while the right side had a tiny gap. The video that Mia sent was quite clear that there must be NO gap on the left side, so that is how I left it.

Powered the machine back up, loaded the file, then used the 'Step' button to grab the first component. Now the tape feed worked correctly and the nozzle is EXACTLY centered on the 0402 component pocket on the tape. Note that I wanted to use the 0402 tape for checking the centering - the pocket is very small and its easy to verify how well centered the nozzle is.

Ran the SMTDemo file - the machine proceeded to pick up parts from all 3 tapes and place them on the board. I can't yet tell how accurate the placement is - the parts bounce all over the place because there is nothing to keep in place (no paste or anything). I'll try again on Monday after spraying the PCB with something sticky to hold the parts.

I mentioned that I should have also loaded a reel of 1206 components. The SMTDemo.csv file has a '1' in the 'Skip' field for all of the larger components (diodes, QFN32 parts, etc) but does allow placing of all of the small components. One thing to note: the CSV file mentions that the larger parts are 1210 instead of 1206 but the offset values used in the stack setup are in fact for 1206 components. So: I think that the '1210' in the components list is a mistake and that you should load a reel of 1206 components in stack #4, not 1210.

Anyway, my machine appears to be usable at this point. I will know better on Monday - I have up to 200 panels each of two different panels of SMD boards (6 boards in each panel) ready to run - including having paste stencils. I just need to wait until the lady who knows where all the parts are to dig them out for me - then I'll start playing <grin>.

Finally, I wanted to mention that I saved a copy of the video that Mia sent to me in the Cubby cloud storage site that I mentioned earlier. The file name is FixRackingProblem.avi (32MB) and you can get it from https://www.cubby.com/pl/Cubby/_84be51e9ba934374b6f13af5e66cb880. I am also uploading more pictures into the 'Canon' folder on that same site - these pictures are the under-side of the main control PCB and more pictures of the under-side of the Stepper Driver PCB (showing the LM2576 Simple Switcher +5V & +10V rails).

dwayne
Last edited by DwayneR on Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Postby DwayneR » Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:10 pm

I wanted to mention something pretty cool that I noticed while I was running the SMTDemo file: there are a couple of places within the file where the pickup head is grabbing two components from the same stack. That is: both nozzles are in use and grabbing from the same tape.

The tape feed moves the tape TWO positions in this particular case! Because the machine knows that both nozzles are grabbing from the same tape, it moves the tape by 2 positions, then loads both nozzles sequentially. This saves time - the normal method would be to move the tape by one position, grab the component, move the same tape another position, then grab the second component.

Very, very cool!

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Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Postby Sjaak » Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:22 am

great review (i know it still WIP..)

I saw one today in action in the Seg buy building at ground level. Dunno if it was a Neoden outlet, will check out tomorrow. THe macine was very fast and looks acurate (it ran a different program then the pcb; the head moved further then the pcb). I found the machine was bigger then expected.
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Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Postby supertronic » Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:49 pm

I have some problems in placement accuracy using XS nozzle if the distance between pick and place is longer.
On multi board placement configuration. (machine speed is 5 no vibrations!)
There is no problem using S nozzle all parts taken from head 2 using S nozzle are in place.
I already changed the XS nozzle on head 1 no improvement!

Any suggestions?
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Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Postby DwayneR » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:48 pm

supertronic wrote:I have some problems in placement accuracy using XS nozzle if the distance between pick and place is longer.
On multi board placement configuration.


I'd be checking several things. First: power-down the machine and check to see that the gantry hits both front stops at the same time. In other words, no gap on either the left or right sides of the gantry and the front supports.

Check to see if the nozzle is exactly centered in the component tape. To do this, go to the main screen that shows the files on the SD card. But instead of hitting 'Load", hit "Edit" instead. Cursor down to the line that shows the nozzle offset for the stack that you are checking out. Note that the X and Y parameters will show the settings for that stack.

Then tap the top-right parameter box (marked 'Stack' and highlight the right-hand digit only. Use the "UP" button on the keypad to select the proper stack number. Then press the "Joystick" icon in the middle of the touch-screen. The head will move to that stack and drop the nozzle. Ensure that it is exactly centered in the component hole in the tape.

To change the offset, decide whether you are adjusting either the X or Y setting. Highlight the extreme right-hand digit in whichever parameter you are going to change. Then use the Up and Down buttons on the keypad to change the entry. After making a change to one of the parameters, hit the Joystick icon in the middle of the touch-screen again. That will move the head to the new location. Note that the head will move only when the Joystick icon is tapped.

Keep adjusting the offset until it is correct. Then press the "Enter" button to save your changes to the SD card.

Other things to look out for:

You mention "multi-board" placement. Is the accuracy good on the first board? If so, I would carefully measure the exact distance between the individual boards in the panel and enter those values into the multi-board header in the file (header ID #3).

More information from you might allow us to make more suggestions.

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Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Postby supertronic » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:12 am

Hi dwayne,

Thank you for the fast reply,

It's not a feeder offset problem the first board is ok the offsets for the next boards are right because head 2 puts the component at the right place. The first head using XS nozzle has the problem. If the component is traveling over long distances the accuracy is poor.

I found one problem if both heads are in action he first component picked sometimes misaligned.
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