Loki: A new PSoC based development board

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Re: Loki: A new PSoC based development board

Postby alanh » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:02 pm

Since you actually don't use 5V anywhere (except maybe a plank), why not diode or both vbus and the barrel connector into a fixed 3.3V switcher like a TPS62162DSGT?

It would significantly reduce component count and PCB area.
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Re: Loki: A new PSoC based development board

Postby sanandak » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:13 pm

Great - didn't see that.

I'll preorder a Loki board... where do I go.

Sincerely,
sak
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Re: Loki: A new PSoC based development board

Postby nickjohnson » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:11 am

alanh wrote:Since you actually don't use 5V anywhere (except maybe a plank), why not diode or both vbus and the barrel connector into a fixed 3.3V switcher like a TPS62162DSGT?

It would significantly reduce component count and PCB area.


The 5v rail is provided as a high-power rail mainly for planks. The display plank, for instance, uses it to power the backlight, while the audio plank powers the amplifier off it.
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Re: Loki: A new PSoC based development board

Postby nickjohnson » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:12 am

sanandak wrote:Great - didn't see that.

I'll preorder a Loki board... where do I go.

Sincerely,
sak


Sorry, they're not yet available for preorder. I'll post here when they are, though!
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Re: Loki: A new PSoC based development board

Postby nickjohnson » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:02 am

So, with Cypress releasing their Pioneer board, I'm having to rethink the Loki's target market and features a bit. There's no way I can compete with Cypress for price, and their board even has onboard debugging!

As one option, I'm considering a fairly substantial redesign, to position the Loki as an Arduno Mega/Due to the Pioneer's Uno/Leonardo. This would, unfortunately, require giving up on Loki's unique expansion and stacking system, but it would also provide easier access to the existing ecosystem of Arduino shields, as well as making it easier to launch the Loki, since it wouldn't require launching a whole set of expansion planks along with it.

Thoughts?
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Re: Loki: A new PSoC based development board

Postby neslekkim » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:54 am

I'm not going to buy the Pioneer, I have 5 arduinoes, couple of shields, but the problem with the arduino which I don't like, is the damn pinout, it's not breadboardable, and you cannot easily add an standard stripboard due to the placement of the upper headerrow. (which have odd spacing between the two blocks)
And the other part with arduino layout, is that, yes, you can physically add the shields, but recent designs etc makes the old shields obsolete anyway, due to 3v3 usage, and that they are not 5v tolerant (Due is crappy imho, 3v3, but still have 5v here and there, easy to kill it)

but, that's just me, I can see that beginners want the arduino layout due to its existing popularity though.
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Re: Loki: A new PSoC based development board

Postby nickjohnson » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:10 am

neslekkim wrote:I'm not going to buy the Pioneer, I have 5 arduinoes, couple of shields, but the problem with the arduino which I don't like, is the damn pinout, it's not breadboardable, and you cannot easily add an standard stripboard due to the placement of the upper headerrow. (which have odd spacing between the two blocks)
And the other part with arduino layout, is that, yes, you can physically add the shields, but recent designs etc makes the old shields obsolete anyway, due to 3v3 usage, and that they are not 5v tolerant (Due is crappy imho, 3v3, but still have 5v here and there, easy to kill it)

but, that's just me, I can see that beginners want the arduino layout due to its existing popularity though.


The motivating factor for me is not beginners but rather migration and ecosystem.

Migration wise, the Pioneer has just eaten a big hole in the Loki's potential market. If I refactor Loki to provide a natural upgrade path from the Pioneer, then I can hopefully get a lot of users who have outgrown the Pioneer's capabilities.

Ecosystem wise, there are a _lot_ of Arduino shields out there. Being able to use them all is valuable. Having to launch with a large initial set of expansion planks is one of the things that's been holding up the Loki.
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Re: Loki: A new PSoC based development board

Postby neslekkim » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:30 am

Yes, but that's my beef,, I cannot use any of my shields with my Arduino Due.. :(
And since it also have the stupid pinlayout, I cannot even add an stripboard to create my own prototyping shield, I need to buy one, or order something.
Like on the STM Discovery boards, i can just use an stripboard and play on..
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Re: Loki: A new PSoC based development board

Postby dolabra » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:57 am

personally, I have never thought copying the form factor added any value to competing products. I don't see lot of people using shields except a proto shield. What made the arduino was the programming environment and the ease of use for the api.
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Re: Loki: A new PSoC based development board

Postby neslekkim » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:10 pm

Yes that's what I'm also into, the Arduino IDE, is fine, but you grow out of it really fast (depending on your background), but the develpment boards, if they contribute value to what you want to do, that is something else.
I would gladly pay $50 for an board like the loki, that gives me posibility to develop solutions, where I'm free to adjust IO, that is what I was interrested in in the first place, the IO redirection, not compability with other stuff.
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Re: Loki: A new PSoC based development board

Postby Zeta » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:24 pm

nickjohnson wrote:The motivating factor for me is not beginners but rather migration and ecosystem.

Migration wise, the Pioneer has just eaten a big hole in the Loki's potential market. If I refactor Loki to provide a natural upgrade path from the Pioneer, then I can hopefully get a lot of users who have outgrown the Pioneer's capabilities.

Ecosystem wise, there are a _lot_ of Arduino shields out there. Being able to use them all is valuable. Having to launch with a large initial set of expansion planks is one of the things that's been holding up the Loki.


I think you might have something sweet here.

Cypress kits are great for development but they are quite costly and big. Therefore, originally there was a big need for smaller/cheaper boards in the cypress comunnity. I think your original Loki board lost it's oportunity in the market because it took too long.

In the last month, several new boards apeared. Appart from the Freesocs boards there were 2 boards with arduino pinout and several with breadboard compatibility. I dont think the arduino form factor added much value so many of us who had CY8Ckit-001/-050/-030 kits went for the small breadboard compatible boards.

With the launch of the Pioner kit and the roadtest, PSOCs will get introduced to several new users. The pioner kit does not eat your market but creates it. Having a PSOC4 as main processor with limited UDB/Analog resources and a PSOC5LP with limited IO broken to pins, if you manage to position your Loki as an upgrade path from the Pioneer kit you could have a chance.

you'll have to get the price right and will have to be quick to take your new loki to the market while there is still hip about the roadtest.
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Re: Loki: A new PSoC based development board

Postby nickjohnson » Wed May 01, 2013 6:03 am

Zeta wrote:
nickjohnson wrote:The motivating factor for me is not beginners but rather migration and ecosystem.

Migration wise, the Pioneer has just eaten a big hole in the Loki's potential market. If I refactor Loki to provide a natural upgrade path from the Pioneer, then I can hopefully get a lot of users who have outgrown the Pioneer's capabilities.

Ecosystem wise, there are a _lot_ of Arduino shields out there. Being able to use them all is valuable. Having to launch with a large initial set of expansion planks is one of the things that's been holding up the Loki.


I think you might have something sweet here.

Cypress kits are great for development but they are quite costly and big. Therefore, originally there was a big need for smaller/cheaper boards in the cypress comunnity. I think your original Loki board lost it's oportunity in the market because it took too long.

In the last month, several new boards apeared. Appart from the Freesocs boards there were 2 boards with arduino pinout and several with breadboard compatibility. I dont think the arduino form factor added much value so many of us who had CY8Ckit-001/-050/-030 kits went for the small breadboard compatible boards.

With the launch of the Pioner kit and the roadtest, PSOCs will get introduced to several new users. The pioner kit does not eat your market but creates it. Having a PSOC4 as main processor with limited UDB/Analog resources and a PSOC5LP with limited IO broken to pins, if you manage to position your Loki as an upgrade path from the Pioneer kit you could have a chance.

you'll have to get the price right and will have to be quick to take your new loki to the market while there is still hip about the roadtest.


Precisely my thoughts. Thanks for the feedback!

I'm still bothered I can't offer onboard debug, but there's no sense worrying about something I can't do anything about.
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Re: Loki: A new PSoC based development board

Postby Markus Gritsch » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:28 am

Would it be possible to use the KitProg included on the Pionieer board to program an external PSoC 5 chip? Or is the KitProg locked to only program PSoC 4 chips? At $89.00 plus shipping the MiniProg3 is a bit expensive.
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Re: Loki: A new PSoC based development board

Postby nickjohnson » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:33 am

Markus Gritsch wrote:Would it be possible to use the KitProg included on the Pionieer board to program an external PSoC 5 chip? Or is the KitProg locked to only program PSoC 4 chips? At $89.00 plus shipping the MiniProg3 is a bit expensive.


I've been conversing with Cypress about this. Apparently there's no way to do this without cutting tracks, because the Pioneer board has the programmer PSoC attached directly to the target device.

The PSoC programmer elsewhere on DP is worth a look as a cheaper alternative to the miniprog3, though.
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Re: Loki: A new PSoC based development board

Postby Markus Gritsch » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:47 am

nickjohnson wrote:I've been conversing with Cypress about this. Apparently there's no way to do this without cutting tracks, because the Pioneer board has the programmer PSoC attached directly to the target device.


If I get the schematic right, I think one has just to desolder the zero ohm resistors R32, R33, and R34.

nickjohnson wrote:The PSoC programmer elsewhere on DP is worth a look as a cheaper alternative to the miniprog3, though.


As I already have a Pioneer Kit, I would rather like to use it as my general programmer. So no restrictions otherwise on the KitProg?
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