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Topic: Really universal soldering controller (Read 762210 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Really universal soldering controller

Reply #1530
[quote author="GuruMeditation"]

The worry is that even if I start at 150c, and my c1 is way out, it could overshoot past 450c while showing < 150c.  Being so fast to heat up I might not catch it in time before damage is done.

 I'm hoping that if I can understand c1 better, I can use the two fixed melting points to adjust c1 until the curve matches at least those two points.

So, my next step is to start trying to read the code to see how c1 is used so I might then get a clue as to  where c1 comes from and thus get a good starting point for the c1 and the T30.[/quote]

Yes you have reason to worry about, see JBC C245 C1 and ( C210 C1 and micro tweezers C1 ), what you can see 3x difference - they use different thermocouples, but that is different brand.
Don't forget for the Gain, gain and C1 are related to the thermocoule.
If hakko uses different thermocouples also it will be hard to get proper value for T30 C1, but you could see it from the beginning, let say you start from 80 - 100C* and I expect max difference to be not more than 30C*, if you increase to 150C* and they use different thermocouple, expected themp. shouldn't exceed 60C*, but is only suggestions. You need extra at least 5 bucs control thermometer ( error 2-3 C* ) firmly connected to the tip.
But if they use the same thermocouple, no C1 change, only need to check for over, undershooting and little align PID values if need.
Forget for a 2 point match, it is not a straight line . And is not so easy.

Re: Really universal soldering controller

Reply #1531
[quote author="minkok"]
Yes you have reason to worry about, see JBC C245 C1 and C210 C1 and micro tweezers C1, what you can see 3x difference - they use different thermocouples, but that is different brand.
Don't forget for the Gain, gain and C1 are related to the thermocoule.[/quote]

Yes, this is why I've listed Gain under "Guess".  It is also why using 50.1(the T15 value) as a starting point for c1 doesn't appeal to me.

[quote author="minkok"]
If hakko uses different thermocouples also it will be hard to get proper value for T30 C1, but you could see it from the beginning, let say you start from 80 - 100C* and I expect max difference to be not more than 30C*, if you increase to 150C* and they use different thermocouple, expected themp. shouldn't exceed 60C*, but is only suggestions. [/quote]

Err, the lowest I've been able to set my Unisolder to is 150c ????

[quote author="minkok"]
You need extra at least 5 bucs control thermometer ( error 2-3 C* ) firmly connected to the tip.
[/quote]

You can have calibrated or you can have cheap, you can't have both.  I'd be better off using the thermocouple on my multimeter than something that cheap.  And no, the cloned Hakko ones on ebay are worse than useless, see the teardown on YT by "bigclivedotcom".

[quote author="minkok"]
But if they use the same thermocouple, no C1 change, only need to check for over, undershooting and little align PID values if need.
Forget for a 2 point match, it is not a straight line . And is not so easy.[/quote]

I have no idea if it is he same thermocouple, in fact I'd be surprised if it was given the difference in physical size between the T15 and T30.  That and the tip resistance is different between the two.

I understand that it is not a straight line as I have referred to it as both a "curve" and a "logarithmic progression".  Two points can be enough if you understand how the results are generated and can live with varying degrees of undershoot in between those two points.  I know it as "best fit analysis" but I understand that it may now be better known as "Curve fitting" (see wikipedia).

Bear in mind that you actually have THREE data points.  The "hidden" one is - room temperature, where the tip and Room: should give the same (or damn near) results.

Re: Really universal soldering controller

Reply #1532
[quote author="GuruMeditation"]

Yes, this is why I've listed Gain under "Guess".  It is also why using 50.1(the T15 value) as a starting point for c1 doesn't appeal to me.[/quote]

I think you have all the  info I can help you until now.

Re: Really universal soldering controller

Reply #1533
[quote author="minkok"][quote author="GuruMeditation"]

Yes, this is why I've listed Gain under "Guess".  It is also why using 50.1(the T15 value) as a starting point for c1 doesn't appeal to me.[/quote]

I think you have all the  info I can help you until now.[/quote]

Thank you for you effort miniok, it has forced me to organise my thoughts so as to discuss this with you.

Were it not for this discussion I would not have realised that I do have 3 data points as I was missing out room temperature!

So again.

Thanks :-)

Re: Really universal soldering controller

Reply #1534
[quote author="GuruMeditation"]Bear in mind that you actually have THREE data points. The "hidden" one is - room temperature, where the tip and Room: should give the same (or damn near) results.[/quote]

If you see Hakko 951 uses the three handles T12,T15 and T30 for the same station , there is very big possibility all of them to share the same thermocouple, only different heaters. You can try to connect your multimeters thermocouple firmly to the T30 and observe all region it should go with no more the same difference b/n display data and a multimeter. May be you are lucky enough
to not change anything.

Re: Really universal soldering controller

Reply #1535
[quote author="minkok"]

Expensive try isn't it?[/quote]
Yes, it is about 20 USD but I think the transformer is better than switching power supply I used while tuning and testing unisolder.
Actually I have a problem with my original JBC enclosure. It's impossible to insert the recommended transformer the enclosure has limited space. Now I think how to solve that. The solution to use the original JBC transformer in it but now I use it in my first station so I need to find a replacement first.

Re: Really universal soldering controller

Reply #1536
[quote author="minkok"][quote author="GuruMeditation"]
[/quote]

If you see Hakko 951 uses the three handles T12,T15 and T30 for the same station , there is very big possibility all of them to share the same thermocouple, only different heaters. You can try to connect your multimeter thermocouple firmly to the T30 and observe all region it should go with no more the same difference b/n display data and a multimeter. May be you are lucky enough
to not change anything.[/quote]

As far as I can tell, the T12 and T15 are the same and both work with the T15 profile. Both have an 8 Ohm tip+sensor.  The T30 is 12 Ohm for the tip+sensor.

I think the difference is more along the lines of Hakko T12/T15 is like the JBC C245 and the Hakko T30 is like the JBC C210.

Re: Really universal soldering controller

Reply #1537
[quote author="GuruMeditation"]
As far as I can tell, the T12 and T15 are the same and both work with the T15 profile. Both have an 8 Ohm tip+sensor.  The T30 is 12 Ohm for the tip+sensor.

I think the difference is more along the lines of Hakko T12/T15 is like the JBC C245 and the Hakko T30 is like the JBC C210.[/quote]

Do you really think, that simple station as 951 have a software enough to recognise 3x different kind of handles?
Sorry, but I don' t think so. Try it.

Re: Really universal soldering controller

Reply #1538
[quote author="minkok"][quote author="GuruMeditation"]
As far as I can tell, the T12 and T15 are the same and both work with the T15 profile. Both have an 8 Ohm tip+sensor.  The T30 is 12 Ohm for the tip+sensor.

I think the difference is more along the lines of Hakko T12/T15 is like the JBC C245 and the Hakko T30 is like the JBC C210.[/quote]

Do you really think, that simple station as 951 have a software enough to recognise 3x different kind of handles?
Sorry, but I don' t think so. Try it.[/quote]

It must do or else it wouldn't know to limit the power output as the T15 runs @ 70W and the T30 @ 48W.

That and the T12 *IS* the T15!

"T12 Series is available in Japan, Oceania, Asia & Other countries.
* In case of North America & EU, see “T15 Series."

Re: Really universal soldering controller

Reply #1539
[quote author="GuruMeditation"]
It must do or else it wouldn't know to limit the power output as the T15 runs @ 70W and the T30 @ 48W.

That and the T12 *IS* the T15!

"T12 Series is available in Japan, Oceania, Asia & Other countries.
* In case of North America & EU, see “T15 Series."[/quote]


You do not need that, power is limited from bigger resistant- 12 Ohm, you just need to connect it by corresponded ID resistors like T12, mount your multimeters thermocouple for measuring the tip themp. and check. If there is overshooting, because of the smaller tip, need to change only pid constants. That's all

 

Re: Really universal soldering controller

Reply #1540
Good people - please help!
I broke my head - no more ideas!
 Bought from a seller on Ali 4 display. 3 - 1.3 inch and 1 - 0.96. Works only 0.96, while the rest show complete crap! Read the manuals to them and they are the same Vcc-12, Vdd-2.8. 1.3 inch should work the same as 0.96.
IN WHAT MAY BE AN AMBUSH?

[attachment=3] [attachment=2]
[attachment=1] [attachment=0]

Re: Really universal soldering controller

Reply #1541
NECHTO,
Display should have 128x64 resolution and be based on SSD1306 controller. Sellers usually declare these important parameters.
Your displays are based on the SH1106 controller, I suppose.

Re: Really universal soldering controller

Reply #1542
Does anyone know receptacle socket part number for the JBC micro tweezers?  I thinking to buy one and want connector to add to Unisolder.
Thank you!

Re: Really universal soldering controller

Reply #1543
[quote author="minkok"][quote author="GuruMeditation"]
It must do or else it wouldn't know to limit the power output as the T15 runs @ 70W and the T30 @ 48W.

That and the T12 *IS* the T15!

"T12 Series is available in Japan, Oceania, Asia & Other countries.
* In case of North America & EU, see “T15 Series."[/quote]


You do not need that, power is limited from bigger resistant- 12 Ohm, you just need to connect it by corresponded ID resistors like T12, mount your multimeters thermocouple for measuring the tip themp. and check. If there is overshooting, because of the smaller tip, need to change only pid constants. That's all[/quote]

Ahhh the "suck it and see" method.  While it *might* work for the T30s it would leave me no closer to adding the T9s.  Whereas, if I can understand the logic behind it, I will be that much closer to SAFELY adding BOTH.

I only gave my meter's thermocouple as an example of a crap idea to highlight my lack of a proper measurement device.  The K-type thermocouple used in most inexpensive meters is notoriously bad for this kind of work as the thermal transfer properties are all over the place.

I think I will continue my dive into the contents of PID.c and see what a couple of days wrestling with understanding it get me.  I will admit that at first glance it is giving me a headache, particularly the wave shaping section but I feel that it is worth the effort.

After all if I do manage to add support for these tips, it would be wrong of me to expect sparkybg to support them.  That would fall to me and without understanding what I'm doing I can't do that.

Re: Really universal soldering controller

Reply #1544
[quote author="GuruMeditation"][quote author="minkok"][quote author="GuruMeditation"]
It must do or else it wouldn't know to limit the power output as the T15 runs @ 70W and the T30 @ 48W.

That and the T12 *IS* the T15!

"T12 Series is available in Japan, Oceania, Asia & Other countries.
* In case of North America & EU, see “T15 Series."[/quote]


You do not need that, power is limited from bigger resistant- 12 Ohm, you just need to connect it by corresponded ID resistors like T12, mount your multimeters thermocouple for measuring the tip themp. and check. If there is overshooting, because of the smaller tip, need to change only pid constants. That's all[/quote]

Ahhh the "suck it and see" method.  While it *might* work for the T30s it would leave me no closer to adding the T9s.  Whereas, if I can understand the logic behind it, I will be that much closer to SAFELY adding BOTH.

I only gave my meter's thermocouple as an example of a crap idea to highlight my lack of a proper measurement device.  The K-type thermocouple used in most inexpensive meters is notoriously bad for this kind of work as the thermal transfer properties are all over the place.

I think I will continue my dive into the contents of PID.c and see what a couple of days wrestling with understanding it get me.  I will admit that at first glance it is giving me a headache, particularly the wave shaping section but I feel that it is worth the effort.

After all if I do manage to add support for these tips, it would be wrong of me to expect sparkybg to support them.  That would fall to me and without understanding what I'm doing I can't do that.[/quote]


Soon or late you need to check somehow your handle. Do you see some other options to fix it without that? You guess that your handle cannot work and you do vast amount of job to fix something without knowing if is it  ok?  Let say you open sparkybgs code and even you would understand all of it, how could  you  continue, without checking? I don't want to trust me just like that, do your job as you think is right , I just try to save you a big work for nothing. And about  "suck it and see" method - may be is a common practice in you place, but not all over the world.

[quote author="GuruMeditation"]I only gave my meter's thermocouple as an example of a crap idea to highlight my lack of a proper measurement device.  The K-type thermocouple used in most inexpensive meters is notoriously bad for this kind of work as the thermal transfer properties are all over the place. [/quote]

If you cannot afford to buy expensive thermocouple as you mention before and don't want to use, what is under your hand, what you are going to do!