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Topic: High speed Pick & Place for $3600 (Read 343697 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #30
@ammsolutions if you are still around, were did you get it? I'll be back in shenzhen soon and would be interested in seeing it or meeting a dealer.
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Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #31
Good day All,

Just a follow up to reflect what we decided to do for a PnP machine...  Looking at this one and few other similarly priced machines, I decided to break the bank and go with an older commercial PnP machine (about $10K).  The issue I had with the smaller and less expensive units are their lack of adequate feeders and support for BGAs, etc.  Also, some like the Madell unit look somewhat "flimsy" and for almost $8K.  Adding feeders, etc and the cost was quickly approaching $10K... and I could not find any online reviews of this unit... too many unknowns for me given the $$$ involved.  The $3600 unit looked solid and the videos certainly show it works quite well.  However, the PCB mounting and registration system did not inspire confidence with me... and I really cannot see how it can handle BGAs given that I do not see a vision system or laser registration.  Lastly, there is the issue of support... both technical as well as spares.  Using a known commerical system provides a lot of resources if needed.  That is not to say that this $3600 unit is bad or poor value, but is just a little to risky for me as well as lacks the features that I require.

... well... back to the poor house...

Cheers,

Sam

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #32
That commercial PnP machine did you end up getting?
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Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #33
[quote author="ian"]That commercial PnP machine did you end up getting?[/quote]

Good day Ian,

I am just finalizing the deal now, but it is a Juki 575.  There are a variety of units available on the market, but the balance for me was cost, size (because of transport logistics), power needs (single phase as opposed to three phase), feeder package (which is important, as feeders can add up pretty quickly), etc.  The Juki's are highly regarded, straight forward to program, spares/replacement parts can be easily found, etc.  Although the 575 is a "smaller" unit it is by no means a light weight... it weights 450kg and 973mm x 843mmx 1680mm in size... Smaller meaning that it's placement rate and total installed feeder quantity is smaller compared to the higher end placement machines.  For me that is fine, as I am only looking to use the machine for prototyping and low production needs and will still be using a ECM for medium to high volume requirements.  About the price... I believe I am paying a fair price for the unit given all of the accessories, free training by the owner, and for a relatively lightly used unit from the original owner.  Can better bargains be found?  Sure, but then there is increased risk ... to me anyway.  Transport is also a consideration, as the unit needs to be properly packaged (crated, etc) and co-ordinated with the (International) transport carrier.  Not a big issue, but certainly extra effort and attention is needed.

Personally I do think there is a market for a new machine catered to people/companies like myself. I do think that this market is currently in its infancy and so that is the reason that there are few (new) devices available and so the current prices are reflective of this.  Secondly, it is a niche market, as a PnP would not be used or needed by the general populous... and so again pricing will be higher because of the lack of economies of scale. 

In regards to this $3600 PnP, or the ones from Madell, etc... Perhaps I would of purchased one had I been able to see, touch, and experiment with the unit.  Sadly, one does not know the strengths or weakness of a product until one has some real hands on time with it.  In my case there is just none available anywhere close to me and so far virtually 0 feedback I could find on the Madell units and only a few comments on the $3600 PnP... and even these comments are only from first usage/impressions... what will they be in 6 months or even 1 year from now? $3600 or $7500 (Madell) + shipping is fair amount of $$$ to spend based upon a product's "spec".  Like I said before I am not trying to dissuade anyone from these units, but my previous comments are things that entered into my decision.

Anyway, If all goes well I should have the machine by months end or so and if there is interest by others in this thread I can post my experiences.

Cheers,

Sam

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #34
I haven't hunted around too much, but $10k for a lightly used single owner Juki 575 with feeders sounds phenomenal.  I think this choice is a really good fit for your situation.

Thanks for sharing!  btw, how did you come across the unit?

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #35
[quote author="bearmos"]I haven't hunted around too much, but $10k for a lightly used single owner Juki 575 with feeders sounds phenomenal.  I think this choice is a really good fit for your situation.

Thanks for sharing!  btw, how did you come across the unit?[/quote]

Good day Bearmos,

Indeed, I think the price is excellent all things considered.  The owner is fantastic to deal with and more importantly he will demonstrate and train me on the unit.  Like I said, can better deals be found?  Possibly, but in this case I am getting info and training right from the owner, as opposed to 2nd or 3rd hand knowledge and this is worth a lot to me.

As for my search... I have been scouring Ebay, the web, a few SMT forums, and e-mailed a few brokers in the last 7 weeks or so.  There is a ton (no pun intended) of equipment out there with a range of capability, prices, and condition.  The trick is to narrow your search based upon your placement needs, cost, size, and infrastructure needs (single phase/ Three phase, etc)... Cost is a big one and should include additional feeders, transport, and future serviceability.  As for links I used the following:
 
 http://www.used-line.com
 http://www.hi-techsources.com/
 http://www.caeonline.com
 http://www.smtnet.com

Cheers,

Sam

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #36
Thanks a lot for the links Sam!

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #37
Thanks for the extra info! Good luck with your machine.
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Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #38
I went ahead and bought the TM-220A for $3650 plus $307 for shipping via FedEx. It's a ton of cash for my micro business. I have conversed with them quite a bit. They were able to send me the training videos and while in Chinese the videos along with the English screenshots I was able to make sense of it all. Now they are helping me (and me helping them I suppose) to get the centroid data out of Eagle. I just need to format the data properly(comma delimited, x,y,indicator,package and rotation) and they have a tool that does much of the programming from there. I just need to map the feeders to the parts. I don't use BGA currently mostly SOIC some sop and 0805 although I think I'm going to go down to 0603 with future designs. I must say it's a gamble and I'm definitely nervous that I've made a bad decision but I'm comfortable with the purchase. I've been paying people ~$10/hr to hand place parts for many many years. The pnp has always been out of my reach financially. I'll post here and let everyone know how it goes. Hoping for it to arrive by the end of the week.

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #39
good luck xinort.  we'd all love to hear how it goes.

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #40
Quote
good luck xinort. we'd all love to hear how it goes.

Ditto, if you're happy I'll buy one right away :)
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Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #42
Good day All,
I just returned from inspecting and training on the used Juki PnP that I will buying and mentioned in my earlier post.  I am totally amazed and bewildered at all of the intricacies involved with how PnP is done, used, and what parameters need to be inputted.  After training and seeing all of the details needed for PnP'ing I can now see the issues facing the smaller and less commercial devices available.  That is not to say that the smaller devices should not be considered, but one should really know and understand their limitations.  In my case after looking, analyzing, and now being somewhat trained on a commercial unit I am even more convinced that the unit I am going with is my best direction.  My advice to other considering a PnP... ensure you understand the costs, benefits, and limitations of the machine you are considering.
Cheers,
Sam

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #43
I just posted up a picture of a $5000 PNP I got to see yesterday. Quite nice.

http://dangerousprototypes.com/2013/01/ ... and-place/
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Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #44
[quote author="ian"]I just posted up a picture of a $5000 PNP I got to see yesterday. Quite nice.

http://dangerousprototypes.com/2013/01/ ... and-place/[/quote]
That looks a lot like the $3600 one.