Dangerous Prototypes Open Source Hardware

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #105 – February 15, 2013, 11:18:31 am

I'm here waiting like a kid for christmas. Should be here within the hour, if they don't decide to torture me more than usual.

Mine was actually repackaged because the wood crate was unacceptable for UPS. Hoping that doesn't cause issues.

Had a similar experience with customs. They wanted to know what it was and the code, and didn't get what a pick and place is. I said I had an invoice from a previous tool shipment and maybe that code would be helpful. I gave the 'welding machine and tools' code, which he said was his first choice, so everyone seemed happy. I'm _SURE_ I will pay tax on it, they charge me $35 just for the privilege of assessing a tax, even if that tax is $0.

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #106 – February 15, 2013, 06:04:33 pm

I'm really very happy so far. Only messing around, but no stuck feeders and not a single dropped or vacuum sensor rejected part.

There does appear to be a loose bolt or nut rolling around inside the body. It will be quite a task to pull it apart to find out what that is. Vacuum pumps are a little loud and grating, and always on even if not in active use :(

Seeing how the reel setup kind of enforces a certain collection of part sizes, I'd lean towards getting the bigger one if possible for the increased number of reels. I couldn't afford it or get it in the workshop though, so I'm still very happy with this one. We don't even have enough parts to fill the entire stack yet, just worried about the future.

It is 'stuck' in chinese. I can get english to load in a really round-about way, but it does not save after power down. That will need a special warranty voiding password from the manufacturer :( Will pursue that after the holiday.

I contacted our ULP guru who is going to automate the stack setup, and add a GUI to assign stacks different than the default all from Eagle.

I will convert and share the instructional videos. I thought xinort got some with subtitles, mine are 100% in chinese (which I only understand 0.5%, mostly numbers).

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #107 – February 15, 2013, 06:14:16 pm

glad everything is working, ian.  looking forward to seeing it run some PCBA's :)  Now, you can officially join the PnP "Lifestyle".

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #108 – February 16, 2013, 01:11:46 am

Hi all!

I don't want to hijack this thread, so I'll be brief:

I'm super excited to see so many people doing SMT work, and myself, in the process of setting up a small SMT CM service specifically for the very low volume market (1-100pc).  As many have found out, doing P&P isn't easy or cheap.

Anyway, I'd be very grateful if those looking for or doing SMT P&P contact me for some market research.  My goal so far is just to find out what peoples needs are and what kind of solutions are out there.  I want to help ease your pain!

In return, I've much low low volume SMT experience, so I'll do my best to answer any and all questions!

Thank-you very much !!

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #109 – February 16, 2013, 03:38:42 am

Waiting for these videos is killing me! I've been using all of the equipment you have purchased for quite a while, but never looked into buying a pick and place machine. I want one, but I'm still not sure if I can justify getting one...

Either my boards require assembly with fabrication houses that have xray inspection capabilities and certifications or they are general consumer/hobbyist boards that can be made overseas for a very low rate. Sadly it's hard to argue purchasing one when it's cost rivals that of the shipping/duty/assembly/packaging/shipping back of 6-7 runs. Worse off, it doesn't help me with TH components or any wiring/crimping.

Someone help me justify one! :D

Colin are you accredited? What type of equipment do you plan to have? E.g. are you going to compete with an establishment like screaming circuits, or are you planning to work within price ranges possible to achieve by outsourcing to china?

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #110 – February 16, 2013, 08:58:53 am

Colin - welcome to the forum and good luck with your business. Maybe we should start a thread (or forum) for low low volume assembly ventures discussion.

I don't mean to be discouraging, but we see someone with a similar plan post about once a month. As far as I know most don't go through with it. I always assume it is because of lack of experience (not a problem for you), but more importantly because there's no profit in doing one-offs for hobbyists who are usually after the cheapest deal they can scrounge. Again, I don't mean to discourage, I would LOVE to see a dependable low-volume assembly house, it would be great for open hardware.

We have a backlog of dozens, if not hundreds, of PCBs we designed but never stuffed because I'm the only guy doing soldering. I've talked to a bunch of people willing to pick up some of the slack, but it never quite works out. Aside from hiring someone to solder for me in-house (not feasible), a PnP at this price seemed like the only option.

One thing that helps make the small machine useful is a standardized set of parts. We already work off a fairly small partlist, and have reduced it even further for the 'stack' of parts in the TM220A. Seeed Studio has the bigger model, and will also be offering assembly of low low volume stuff, so we plan to standardize together on a limited part library to facilitate cheap PnP.

Setup time seems to eat into low volume PnP profitability. Our goal is a one-click output of PnP files from Eagle using automatic stack assignments based on part size and values. We already have the code base from our image and BOM export script, look for progress on this in the next week.

macpod - Don't look to me to justify it :) The machine is working ok so far, but my expectations are low:
1. If it can barf the most common parts anywhere on the board, it is faster to fix everything than hand place and solder. If it only turns out to be an automatic messy kit maker, I'm a happy guy!
2. I get hands on experience with an important tool, and it's probably slightly less expensive than finding and taking a class on PnP. Plus I get to keep the PnP at the end :)
3. There's obviously a publicity factor. These posts are getting lots of hits, and having this equipment makes us a more legit shop. The PR is also more organic, longer lasting, and cheaper than an ad in Make magazine for example.

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #111 – February 16, 2013, 10:08:54 am

[quote author="ian"]Maybe we should start a thread (or forum) for low low volume assembly ventures discussion.
[/quote]
Or just broaden the scope of this one to include tools and services. :)

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #112 – February 16, 2013, 10:49:57 am

[quote author="ColinFitzgerald"]
Anyway, I'd be very grateful if those looking for or doing SMT P&P contact me for some market research.  My goal so far is just to find out what peoples needs are and what kind of solutions are out there.  I want to help ease your pain!
[/quote]
Hi Colin,

Feel free to hijack my thread about prototype P&P on this forum. :)

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #113 – February 16, 2013, 07:28:28 pm

It wouldn't be hard or expensive to make this pick n place more reliable and faster.
As the machine is made out of alu profiles it isn't hard to replace the linear bearing system by hiwin rails.

These rails are also used in the professional pnp machines and the cnc world.
Because of the resonably low forces you have with an pnp machine you can get the smallest size of linear rail. And it will be quite affordable. An example: HGR20 rails is 58 euro per meter. And the carrage cost 35 euro each (#1).

For the linear motion you should use Ballscrew. It deletes backslash which you would certainly have using those ... rubber bands?
Most people in the diy cnc zone use a guy on ebay who is stationed in china called linearmotionbearings2008 . When contacted via email he will give you a price for all the stuff you need and also end machining , bearing blocks etc ... The quality has been proven on many sites like cnczone.com.

Pricing of those ballscrews ? A set i saw on his ebay shop was for 3 axis. Size RM1605 , measurements 250mm , 650mm and 1000mm. Including the ballscrew nuts the set goes for 74 euro (99USD) ex. shipping (#2).
To do the conversion you would also need some aluminium adapters custom made. That has to be done by yourself or an company / other hobbyist.

When the ballscrew mod is done the machine probably will have an offset because of the change in advancement per rotation.
This could be changed in the software but i doubt that the company will give you access to those menu's . Another way is to use some kind of gear ratio on the stepper motors so that the offset will be fixed.

I don't know the exact measurements of the machine etc... but my guess is that the machine can be retrofitted for about 400-500 dollar. When looking at the base price of 3600 for the machine and 400-500 for the mods the total cost would be 4000-4100 USD.

I would love to buy the pick n place and do the mods i mentioned. But as a student i hardly can justify such a purchase without paying it back whit some kind of pcb assembly service or whatever.

One idea would be that there is some kind of research kickstarter campaign in small scale electronics producing.
The funding goal for something like that would be around 8000 USD depending on the aspects that will be researched.
Why 8000 USD ?
* purchase of the cheap pick n place machine (TM220 / TM240) : 3600-4700 USD
* Diffrent nozzels etc: 200 usd ?
* (possible) mods to the machine (hiwin , ballscrew) +_ 500 usd ?
* Shipping to europe +_ 470 usd ?

total: 3600 + 200 + 500 + 470 = 4770 (ex. tax)
        4700 + 200 + 500 + 470 = 5870 (ex. tax)

The rest of the money could be spended on these topics:

Smt stencils like polymer are really affordable now. An A4 size (21x22cm) stencil costs 18USD form like smtstencil.co.uk.
For that price it does not pay to diy it. If a higher volume stencil is needed , the "soda can" method could be used. But instead of using a soda cans just buy alu sheets in the size you need and it will be much more durable than the polymer ones.


"Baking" the boards can be done using an modded toaster oven which has heat circulation to make the process even better.

A pid controller should be used to control this process. Because it will be done diy style you can choose which size of oven you will be using. mikeselectricstuff @youtube uses an commercial pizza oven for his boards and that works out great.

Testing your product is a big part of kit producing so test / programming rigs have to be made. Laser cutted sheets can make up such appliance and pogo-pins would be used to contact the pads.
 

This post is long enough now ... i'll lest somone comment before i type more.


#1: http://www.shop.cncdrive.com/index.php?categoryID=110
#2: http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-anti-backlash ... 1174992568?

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #114 – February 16, 2013, 07:52:50 pm

Hi there, Ian.

Just chatting with my business partner this morning and he is questioning my choice of the small machine.  So: I should ask if you can get the price on the larger machine - there is a distinct possibility that will be the machine for me.

And - I hope that both you and xinort are able to keep us updated on your adventures with your machines.  I'm really quite envious and very much looking forward to having a machine of my own to begin learning.

Many thanks!

dwayne

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #115 – February 16, 2013, 10:01:46 pm

If I knew what I know now, I absolutely would have gone with the bigger pnp (TM240A). For certain boards we have to run them through multiple sets of parts, so we install a set then then run a program then take out all the parts and then reel up a whole new set and it's quite time consuming. We've been having a competition at the shop for how fast we can put a new reel in. I currently hold the record at 58 seconds but I'm certain it can be done several seconds faster. That said at a normal pace it takes about 2 minutes for each and that doesn't include removing the reels that are already there. I figure it's probably about 45-60 minutes to remove the currently installed reels, install another batch then put the normal ones back on. On top of that it's seems a bit harder to reinstall a previously used reel. So again I'd definitely go with the bigger model that has more stacks.

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #116 – February 16, 2013, 11:07:13 pm

Xinort , could you post a video about the machine?

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #117 – February 17, 2013, 09:06:14 am

I started documenting the protocol on the wiki, including some stack offset values for common parts:
http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/TM2 ... ile_format

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #118 – February 17, 2013, 10:43:40 am

Is there an easy way to export the placement from altium ?

Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600

Reply #119 – February 17, 2013, 08:40:44 pm

Yes, a tool is included with the machine that works with Altium/Protel. I use eagle so I haven't used it or know exactly how it works. One of the training videos shows how it's done albeit in Chinese. Anyone know of a good site to upload/share large files? I tried a couple and they are all a pita or limit file size. All the training videos combined are nearly a gig.