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Topic: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron driver (Read 678753 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri

Reply #705 –
[quote author="sparkybg"]
Here is what the terminals are for:

[/quote]

The heater isn't driven through the cartridge outer connection, it is to earth the tip. Heater current flowing in the earth connection for the tip would put a couple of volts ac on the tip with respect to earth.

There are multiple soldering iron standards which require less than 5mV or less than 2mV voltage on the tip with respect to earth.

Going back a few posts I suspect the current shunt in the JBC controllers is for overload detection/protection. There is no fuse in the heater circuit.

Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri

Reply #706 –
Ok, used crocodiles to hold the probes while metering now, finally stable.

C245:
Heater- -> Heater 2.9ohm
TC- -> TC+ 0.2 ohm
TC+ -> Heater + 2.9Ohm

It actually varies from 2.4-3.0ohm based on tip type.

C210:
Heater- -> Heater 0.2ohm
TC- -> TC+ 2.1 ohm
TC+ -> Heater + 2.1Ohm

Same on C120

oposite on C210 and C120?, can that be right? since T210 and T245 have same plug.. hm

Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri

Reply #707 –
Hm, strange. I will order one C210 to check and measure.

T210 and T245 have the same plug, but are using 3 wires. There's 3 more connections available on the plug.

Can you please check how many terminals are connected on the station?

Maybe they are using an inverting amplifier for measuring the thermocouple, or they are grounding the positive power supply for the iron, or they are using negative supply to the iron.

Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri

Reply #708 –
[quote author="neslekkim"]Ok, used crocodiles to hold the probes while metering now, finally stable.

C245:
Heater- -> Heater 2.9ohm
TC- -> TC+ 0.2 ohm
TC+ -> Heater + 2.9Ohm

It actually varies from 2.4-3.0ohm based on tip type.

C210:
Heater- -> Heater 0.2ohm
TC- -> TC+ 2.1 ohm
TC+ -> Heater + 2.1Ohm

Same on C120

oposite on C210 and C120?, can that be right? since T210 and T245 have same plug.. hm[/quote]

Just got a T210-A handpiece with C210-001 tip. Your measuremens are right. The handles are using the same terminals on the connector. T210 handpiece has one extra wire connection (the central one on the connector), maybe for identification.

So, from all this, I think the correct connections to both C245 and C210 are as follows:
[attachment=0]

So it must be treated like serial thermocouple.

Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri

Reply #709 –
Thanks to Zoltan from Hungary. I found this picture by accident in another forum a year ago, but I forgot the name of the webpage. I hope it is not confidential so I can republish it:

Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri

Reply #710 –
I thing it is not correct, especially for C245. This will create short circuit.

On C245 the outer shell is connected to "+", not to "-". And it is the opposite for C210.

There should not be connection between GND and "-" for C245, and there should not be any connection between GND and "+" on C210. And of course, in order to use both, there should not be any connection between the GND and any other terminal. The proper connection is in the tip itself.

I made the proper connections for C245 on my station, and it works and it is properly grounded now. I will try C210 in a few minutes i hope.

The nasty thing is, I must use an USB isolator for connection to PC, beacuse euther + or - terminal can be grounded, and this depends on the tip type.

Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri

Reply #711 –
If I knew that this JBC pin-count is under discussion since months I would publish this pic much early. I don't want to put on a trial the circuit representation, furthermore I am not familiar with these tips and this very long discussion here. My intention was to show the connections of the tip only. The circuit is only, I guess, for a visual presentation. If there are differences between different JBC tips families, of course the right connection is (and must) well-provided inside the tip! But the pin count will be always the same due to the "universal" hand-piece. So the pin-out looks OK for me, as your previous assumption.

Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri

Reply #713 –
[quote author="arhi"]I don't get why the hack are they using the tip body as anything but earth :( .... it is a serious drawback imo[/quote]

They are using it only for ground. I made some false assumptions.

It is a fact that it is connected through the TC to one of the other terminals, but this does not mess with the grounding in any way, as soon as the ground wire is used only for ground (i.e. straight wire from outer shell to the mains ground).

The positive thing is, you don't use any insulation between the TC and the tip, and this means better thermal contact both for heater and for the TC.

The drawback is, you cannot ground any of the power terminals. And if for example (my case) you want to have an USB port on the station for firmware updates or something else, you should use isolator for this or you should disconnect the station ground from mains ground in order to be able to connect the USB without creating a ground loop. Pretty nasty, actually. I don't know how they perform this task on their stations featuring an USB port on them.

Technically, It is a trivial thing - you can either use USB-COM chip and isolate the TX and RX lines with digital isolators, or you can use ADuM3160/4160 for direct USB isolation. Both methods have their drawbacks. I've decided to use ADuM3160 for this task. We will see if it will perform as it should when I make the new PCB.

Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri

Reply #714 –
[quote author="Hobbyist"]If I knew that this JBC pin-count is under discussion since months I would publish this pic much early. I don't want to put on a trial the circuit representation, furthermore I am not familiar with these tips and this very long discussion here. My intention was to show the connections of the tip only. The circuit is only, I guess, for a visual presentation. If there are differences between different JBC tips families, of course the right connection is (and must) well-provided inside the tip! But the pin count will be always the same due to the "universal" hand-piece. So the pin-out looks OK for me, as your previous assumption.[/quote]

The heater is always between C2(-) and C3(+). The thermocouple signal is on the same terminals and polarity.

- on the C245 there is a direct link between C3(+) and C1(GND) in the tip.
- on the C210 there is a direct link between C2(-) and C1(GND) in the tip.

Now when you have a 2 instrument controller, it becomes very interesting to control the two different instruments simultaneously, and in the same time to control 2 same instruments simultaneously. I suspect they are using different secondary windings on the transformer for this. Or at lest 2 bridge rectifiers + optical couplers to control the switches.

I am very curious to see how they do it on their double stations. If someone has a clue - please share it with us.

P.S. Here is how they do it on one of their stations - 2 transformers, 2 control units and so on:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/jb ... -teardown/

Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri

Reply #715 –
Interresting, I wonder if they do it differently now, say the DM with 4 outputs, based on the difference in weight from 2-4 outputs, I don't think there are four transformers in it, but going from 1 to 2 output, it might..

Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri

Reply #716 –
[quote author="neslekkim"]Interresting, I wonder if they do it differently now, say the DM with 4 outputs, based on the difference in weight from 2-4 outputs, I don't think there are four transformers in it, but going from 1 to 2 output, it might..[/quote]

The thing is, they are differently grounded, and one of the power lines is connected to ground inside the tip. And because all the outer shells must be coupled directly to ground, and this ground is common to all attached tips, I cannot think of a way to do it but to use different secondaries or different transformers. If you don't, either the power lines will create a short circuit or the TC voltage will be complete mess, if you are using for example C210 and C245 on the same station.

Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri

Reply #717 –
[quote author="neslekkim"]I'm not using my 2BB after I upgraded to DIT, so I could take it apart if there is anything interesting to see inside there.[/quote]

[quote author="sparkybg"]As far as I can see, there are 2 power MOSFETs inside, and it seems they have separate gate drivers. That's why I think it is possible that they are using 12 and 24 volts on the tips.[/quote]

neslekkim, any chance you open your 2BB controller a capture T245 heat-up phase with oscilloscope?

Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri

Reply #718 –
I have an Rigol ds2202a-s, i only need to learn how to capture with it, also got an agilent 34461A today but i guess that is not helpfull here.
What and where should I measure?

Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri

Reply #719 –
[quote author="sparkybg"]
Technically, It is a trivial thing - you can either use USB-COM chip and isolate the TX and RX lines with digital isolators, or you can use ADuM3160/4160 for direct USB isolation. Both methods have their drawbacks. I've decided to use ADuM3160 for this task. We will see if it will perform as it should when I make the new PCB.[/quote]

I'm not big fan of the usb-on-mcu thing (SID has usb only 'cause Ian wanted it, I never populate usb connector on my SID) and I like to use hw uart on mcu for communication with the world .. so some "standard" setup I use is optical serial isolator (sometimes I make it myself with led+fotodiode and some black tape) + isolating 5v:5v or 12v:5v psu (for e.g.
http://www.murata-ps.com/en/products/dc ... 515sc.html
http://www.bellnix.com/pdfdata/pdf/BLA.pdf
http://www.bellnix.com/pdfdata/pdf/BTA.pdf
http://www.bellnix.com/pdfdata/C_BX-L,BJ-H.pdf
http://www.bellnix.com/pdfdata/C_BY-L.pdf )


as for using the earth for stuff ... I dislike it, I know it is ok but I still dislike it