Hello Everybody
I am currently looking at buying either the TVM802A or the TM245P or possibly another machine.
The TM245P looks like a good improvement on the TM240A, but it has no vision. NeoDen looks like a company that stands behind their products and offers good after sales support.
I would like to be able to place a BGA (FT(G)256) with 1 mm ball spacing.
The TVM802A comes from Wenzhou Yingxing Technology Co.,Ltd is this the manufacture or distributor?
Or is QiHe the manufacture?
How is the support from these companies?
The TM245P has a user manual, the TVM802A comes with a 6 page guide and instruction videos.
Has anybody placed a BGA part with the TVM802A?
zjyingxing has provided a good reference in the US, but unfortunately they do not use the machine for BGA.
The TVM802A looks like a copy of the TM240A with vision added.
Is the Servo System open or closed loop on the TVM802A.
How much better is the servo system on the TM245P than other machines in its class?
The tape removal system and reel dispenser looks much better on the TM245P, does it work better in production?
Are there other machines to look at around the $5k to $7k price range?
How does the SMT50 compare to these machines?
Thanks,
Pavel
Hi Pavel,
servo machines could have less vibrations and a higher speed.
Most of the professional machines use servo drives and measurement system for higher precision.
If you want to place BGA or MLF you can only adjust on TM245 using mechanics.
The TM240 has no adjustment option.
You asked for the performance of SMT50 machine maybe better than TM240 because of less vibration than TM240 and have vision system for adjustment.
The SMT50 Vision system works very good for angle correction but is not 100% precise in offset adjustment.
Our new SMT500 has better vision system, higher speed than SMT50 and is in the same price range like TM245.
But the most advantage is the flexibility to define additional feeder or pickup points in the working area.
One nice thing for TM245 are the vibrational feeder but as I know you can't add user defined feeder positions.
To get the neoden machine running is easy and fast because it is preadjusted so you can run out of the box.
Vision machines need some time for learning and adjustment.
If you have feeder problems you need to adjust the feeder pick up position but there is no camera or laser to help you to find the right position you need to change and recheck.
The biggest problem is the pcb alignment error because the outline is not very precise. For my TM240 I did a special holder and fix the boards in the working area using holes in the pcb because you have no fiducial recognition to adjust or realign the board position.
Next problem is on higher speeds you receive vibrations changing the component position under the nozzle while moving.
I decreased the mounting speed and had less vibrations.
Finally I replaced my TM240 by SMT50 machine.
After this step i lost some weeks for learning and adjustment to receive good results.
The service quality of Chinese companys is not on the level of European companys because they think you're a "one shop customer" never meet them again so they don't need to give you good service.
Neoden Machines hae a good quality but I had some contacts with them reporting bugs and problems but newer received a solution.
The worst thing was they can't update TM240 machines in the field so you never receive a fix for a software bug.
I hope I can help you a little bit.
Can the TM245P be updated in the field?
Does the TM245P use servo drives?
In the TM245P user manual, it mentions IC trays, so you can put IC trays in the work area and define their position and offset.
Do you have a link to the SMT500?
Do you have a manual for the SMT500?
What is the cost on the SMT500?
Can it pick and place BGA parts?
I mainly need the machine of small prototype runs and low volume production, so accuracy is more important than speed.
Thanks,
Pavel
Wenzhou Yingxing Technology Co.,Ltd is a trading company & distributor. They buy the other manufactures' machines and re-sell.The TVM802A also buy from other factories too.
[quote author="pavelhaintz"]Can the TM245P be updated in the field?
Does the TM245P use servo drives?
In the TM245P user manual, it mentions IC trays, so you can put IC trays in the work area and define their position and offset.
Do you have a link to the SMT500?
Do you have a manual for the SMT500?
What is the cost on the SMT500?
Can it pick and place BGA parts?
I mainly need the machine of small prototype runs and low volume production, so accuracy is more important than speed.
Thanks,
Pavel[/quote]
In the meantime, did you make a choice?
There is one statement in this thread that I disagree with. A servo does not give any higher accuracy or speed than a properly designed stepper system. The maximum speed achievable by a machine is more a matter of the mass and the programming of acceleration and deceleration ramps. The only time someone can make a claim that a servo is more "accurate" would be if comparing against a condition where a stepper motor has slipped poles. This is rare in a properly designed system. There was a time when I would have believed that statement that a servo is better. There were countless hours that I spent trying to tune my CNC machine and the steppers were having resonance problems. Then I switched to newer stepper drivers. Modern stepper drivers, especially the 32 bit DSP stepper drivers, take care of these resonances to the point that if you were to listen and watch a machine with steppers, you could not distinguish it from a servo machine. I will concede though that I believe the TM-240A's steppers have some resonance that make them whine (vibrate) a bit, and this could be eliminated with better drivers. But I have not seen any evidence of slipped poles or loss of accuracy. Perhaps the TM-245P uses the newer 32bit DSP controlled steppers. I don't know. Since it appears all the manufacturers are watching these threads, I'm sure someone will speak up.
Hi Hans,
the accuracy is better because of less vibrations. You are right a stepper system is on some speeds resonance free because the DSP stepper driver can compensate. But a Servo system can move the head vibration free on any speed.
I have a DSP controlled 3 phase stepper driver based laser engraver which moves perfect without vibration. Maybe his is a good solution too.
I have been using the TVM802A for about 6 months now and am very impressed.After a few trips checking out different options in china I settled with the TVM802A mainly because of the Vision. It's a very well built device for coming out of china. I have no problems with vibration at all. the speed and accuracy is phenomenal. It's definitely not perfect but i have found easy workarounds whatever problems I encountered:
1. Reels don't move easy. So from time to time I have to ensure there is enough slack. No major problem.
2.Software and support is in Chinese english. They are helpful but a lot of time is wasted in finding information that should be in the manuals.
3.Software has its limitations. Maybe I do it wrong but there are only 10 stack positions for IC and I could program a lot more as I use trays for ICS. My solution: split the process into two or more passes per board.
4. The vision has its limitations on size of the IC that can be used. I use one on a common board that is just to big for the bottom camera to justify it right. Solution: I use the manual controls of the software to place the chip with a magnifying glass. Annoying and time consuming but effective.
5 not enough reels. I should have bought the TVM802B, which has twice as many reels.
All in all amazing machine for the price. I have also seen some interesting new machines in china that are not on the internet yet but are being test sold in china.
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