Dangerous Prototypes

General Category => Tools of the trade => Topic started by: supertronic on March 31, 2014, 11:34:16 pm

Title: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on March 31, 2014, 11:34:16 pm
I am designing a small vision based machine having 60x 8mm feeders exchangeable at a size of 800x700mm.
We meet all CE requirements and the EU machine directive.
The production will start end of year.
    
Please note that all pictures are wider than shown you get the complete size on right mouse click.

Here are some pictures of the construction 50% of design task finished.

(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_81.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_82.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_84.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_85.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_83.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_Feederk8mm.76.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_Feederk8mm.77.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_Feederk8mm1.77.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_86.jpg)
Title: Re: New vision based SMT machine
Post by: neslekkim on April 01, 2014, 12:18:45 am
picture 5, what is happening with the tape that is coming into the machine here?, do the operator need to sit and snip it off when it's coming in?, I cant see anything forcing it down or away in some way?
Title: Re: New vision based SMT machine
Post by: supertronic on April 01, 2014, 12:41:39 am
No the design is not finished yet there are some details missing.
The feeder design needs to be completed.
We solved 50% the design task is still going on.
But you see a compact machine having a lots of feeders and using vision system to align the components.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine
Post by: supertronic on April 01, 2014, 03:13:02 pm
Quote
Looks great! Care to share any spec's, approximate pricing, etc?

We plan to release the machine in different versions.

The starter version has stepper drives using leadshine DSP drivers (quiet servo like) and 3 feeder cassettes no cover
starting at 5499USD.
For the EU machine directive you need the cover and security equipment (lock switch, security controller) add 550USD.
A full featured machine using 6 feeder cassettes and cover will start at 6750USD.
The machine is controlled by a PC software having several import functions for different cad file formats.
We could do fiducial recognition to align the board and component alignment using different correction methods.

I will post more informations in the next weeks.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine
Post by: bearmos on April 01, 2014, 03:25:41 pm
how many reels would the different models support?
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine
Post by: supertronic on April 01, 2014, 09:16:25 pm
The SMT700 machine supports 6 slots.
You could use 60x 8mm 7 inch reels maximum but we will support different line sizes like 12mm, 16mm ....
I have not planned yet how to arrange the different line sizes in the cassettes.
You can fix trays on the workplace.
If the whole feeder had 12mm lines you may get 7 lines in this slot. (16mm 5 lines)
In the starter version only 3 slots are equipped but you can buy additional feeder cassettes for the 3 empty slots.
We will support higher components like capacitors.
The nozzlechanger holds 4 different nozzles to support all sizes of components.
It could place parts down to 0402.
The speed should be like a TM240A my machine places average 1800 components per hour.
We should reach >1000 components per hour if vision system is used.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine
Post by: bearmos on April 01, 2014, 09:25:02 pm
it sounds like you've made some significant improvements to the TM240A concept while keeping price in check - very nice!
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on April 01, 2014, 09:31:14 pm
Thank you for compliment :)
You can change equipped feeders and the software will support import function for feeder configuration.
Our design is much more stable and more precise. We use 20mm and 16mm guidings instead of 12mm and 10mm at the TM240A.
My TM240A has head vibrations at mid speed movements.

You get a greater value and much more flexibility.
I use SMT machines for about 10 years and tried to integrate all nice features at a reasonable price.
We will release more information about the next steps in the next month's.
         
All suggestions for improvement are welcome.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: 2thick4uni on April 02, 2014, 09:44:10 pm
Excellent work, I can't wait until its 100% finished. There are two reasons I haven't bought a TM240, firstly the feeders are not removable so I would have to stack it twice or buy two machines, at least five of my boards have 50+ SMT components in the BOM. Second, lack of vision system - I do not want to have to closely examine each board and line up components that are misplaced; I know that most straighten up on reflow but my experience is that some don't. This machine seems to address both shortcomings.

By way of suggestions I would like to ask for very good support and ease of use with Cadsoft Eagle; this machine is at a price point where many of your customers will be using this program rather than Protel and if you make it easy for them it will be talked about on the forums and should lead to many extra sales - I would be your first one ;-)

Good luck!

Allan
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on April 02, 2014, 11:31:36 pm
Dear Allan,
thanks for the praise you are my target customer.

The file import supports at this time Altium Designer, Protel 99SE, Power_PCB_180, Allegro but it should be no problem to support Eagle files.

I had the same situation like you and bought several machines having different problems.
A professional used machine  having 60 feeders will cost > 25000USD.
But how could you transport the machine in your office because the size is too big and the weight above 350Kg.

So I decided to build a machine that support all needs for office use and doing prototypes to several hundred boards a day.

We could scale up the platform to reach a fast servo driven machine at a price point below 10000USD.
Every machine I found below 10000USD won't meet the European machines directive and many of them had no CE conformity.

If you use the TM240A you need to adjust some parts and add other by hand but you get always trouble using components in plastic strips.
I placed 150000 parts using the neoden machine but it's use is very special.
The best placement result you get if you are using resistors and capacitors having cardboard strips.
The second main problem is the board alignment.
I use a sheet metal that carries and align pcb by using adjustment holes of  the pcb.
Now the placement errors depends on component pickup and the movement under the nozzle if the head moves. (vibration problems need to reduce speed)
To minimize the error you need to adjust the pickup position on each feeder line but you have no laser support doing this.
The SMT700 use the down looking camera to help you aligning the feeder pickup point.

You can place more than 60 different components using pickup points on the SMT700 workplace.
You can define a feeder at every position the machine head could reach to use tray or cut strips.

We invite every Neoden machine user to use this machine as upgrade path.

Please support me giving your excellent comments and suggestions.
Best regards
Michael
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on April 03, 2014, 06:49:17 am
A detail picture showing head assembly.

(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_88.jpg)
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: sam512bb on April 03, 2014, 04:22:24 pm
[quote author="supertronic"]<snip>
A professional used machine  having 60 feeders will cost > 25000USD.

But how could you transport the machine in your office because the size is too big and the weight above 350Kg.

<snip>
[/quote]
Good day Michael,

Used machine prices vary and so perhaps where you are they are over $25K, but this is not always the case.  For example I purchased a excellent used (low hours) commercial PnP (Juki/Zevatech PM575) with top and bottom vision, BOC (board offset correction), laser scanning (parts are 3D scanned for deformity before placement), and with about 50 feeders (all types, vibratory base, shaker tubes, jedec trays, etc) for $10K.  In fact one can find some older Quad machines for $3K-$5K if one is patient and looks hard enough.  When I was looking I found a number of commercial machines in the $8K to $13K price range and most of them came with some level of feeder assortment (...I even found 3 Siemens Chipshooter for $5K each and these canplace 20K parts per hour! ... these units were way too big for me and the effort to use and setup was more than I wanted).

The other issue you mentioned is the size and weight... you are quite correct in that commercial machines are usually large and weigh a fair amount (my PM575 weighs 450 kg).  However, they need to have this "heft", as there is a lot of momentum generated during their placement (mine can place 3600 components / hour and the gantry moves about 2 Metres per second) and so the weight is needed for stabilization.  The other issue could be power.  Some Commercial machines require 3-phase power (i.e. Universal GSM) which can be a problem for some... it was for me.

Your design looks excellent and well thought out, however, I would suggest you be cognizant of the price.  I say this, as in my experience once a price is $5K and up, then a firm's (customer) decision to purchase takes a lot more effort... i.e. more people within the firm need to review/approve the purchase, after sales and long term support costs are evaluated, risks of purchase from a new firm, lack of third party support, etc.  As I said, I do not know the European market nor your target market and so perhaps your price point is a bargain.  Here in Canada/US the market is indeed quite aggressive. 

Anyway, I hope you do not take my comments as being negative.  I simply wanted to provide you with some feedback and my experience.  Best of luck on your project!

Cheers,

Sam
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on April 03, 2014, 06:18:44 pm
Dear Sam,
Quote
mine can place 3600 components / hour and the gantry moves about 2 Metres per second)
your old machine doing 3600 parts in an hour under full vision placement?
Our machine can move 2m per second but this will not help if you move large parts.
We doing a design for a prototyping machine new, high precision and at a reasonable price.
If you buy a 120000USD machine used at 5000USD there is not much in best condition and  you will need to use an old dos or unix interface to program. Having thousands of parameters to adjust.
What's the price for spare parts if the machines stops running?
For 6000USD you can buy 20 feeders for your machine?

Quote
The other issue you mentioned is the size and weight... you are quite correct in that commercial machines are usually large and weigh a fair amount (my PM575 weighs 450 kg). However, they need to have this "heft", as there is a lot of momentum generated during their placement
It depends on how much mass needs to be accelerated!

Your machine could not be used under office conditions to big to heavy and the size is to big to move thru an office door.

Our target customer needs a small pick and place machine easy to use and doing the most prototyping jobs.
The SMT700 machine weight will be near 100Kg.

Quote
risks of purchase from a new firm
I am doing electronics design since 1988 how much experience do you want to see.

Thank your for the suggestions.

Best regards
Michael
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: sam512bb on April 03, 2014, 07:24:08 pm
[quote author="supertronic"]Dear Sam,
Quote
mine can place 3600 components / hour and the gantry moves about 2 Metres per second)
your old machine doing 3600 parts in an hour under full vision placement?
Our machine can move 2m per second but this will not help if you move large parts.
We doing a design for a prototyping machine new, high precision and at a reasonable price.
If you buy a 120000USD machine used at 5000USD there is not much in best condition and  you will need to use an old dos or unix interface to program. Having thousands of parameters to adjust.
What's the price for spare parts if the machines stops running?
For 6000USD you can buy 20 feeders for your machine?

Quote
The other issue you mentioned is the size and weight... you are quite correct in that commercial machines are usually large and weigh a fair amount (my PM575 weighs 450 kg). However, they need to have this "heft", as there is a lot of momentum generated during their placement
It depends on how much mass needs to be accelerated!

Your machine could not be used under office conditions to big to heavy and the size is to big to move thru an office door.

Our target customer needs a small pick and place machine easy to use and doing the most prototyping jobs.
The SMT700 machine weight will be near 100Kg.

Quote
risks of purchase from a new firm
I am doing electronics design since 1988 how much experience do you want to see.

Thank your for the suggestions.

Best regards
Michael[/quote]

Good day Michael,

As I said, please do not take my previous comments personally.  They are not intended as a slight against your product, but were meant to give you some insight as to how other users may think.

The specs are what my machine can do, but I have not really timed it, as I only use it for prototyping (i.e. a few boards here and there). For my needs I really needed the top/bottom vision, etc, as I use BGAs in a number of my designs.

As for my comment about the gantry speed... this is simply a comment and was not meant as a comparison and the reason why the (older) machine(s) needs to be the size/weight that it is.  That is not to say that yours could do the same or better, but simply a reason that the older machines are as big and bulky as they are.

As for the older O/S used by the machine... a non issue for me.  It is certainly not a point and click operation, but again it has not been an issue.  One could argue that the older O/S, etc is unsupported, etc... However, it works well and is backed up and so the risk is relatively small.  If I want, I could simply modernize the system, re-write the operating software, and re-use the mechanical infrastructure as well.  Would I do this?  Probably not, as I have too many other things to do.  Having a new machine with modern software would be nice... there is no argument here. 

As for the spare parts... again... a non issue.  One of the benefits of using an established commercial machine is that there is a good support infrastructure.  I can get parts pretty much anywhere (Canada, US, Overseas) and there have been a number of used non-working machines available that can be purchased cheap and then used for spare parts.  Feeders, etc are also not a problem to get (about $100 or so for used feeders).  I do not know how you intend to distribute or provide after sales support for your product, but it is a concern to some users/firms.  For example are you planning on selling direct or will you be reselling through a dealers, etc.  What about support? Are you planning on offering support simply by you or your firm, or will you have support/repair centres in various locations?

For $10K I bought a used low-hours machine (from the original owner) that has more feeders than I need and virtually looks like new (not one scratch).  The owner took excellent care of the machine and provided training to me when I purchased the unit.  The feeders are separate assemblies and so I can leave standard components on them all the time.  I have 8mm, 16mm- 24mm, and 32mm feeder reels.  I also have an assortment of jedec trays, shaker tubes, and two vibratory base.  The unit can be set up with conveyance so that the picked board can be routed to an oven.  I can load parts on all four sides and I think the machine number of reels I can load is over 100.  This depends upon how the machine is configured (i.e. if shaker tubes are installed, etc).  The point is that one can find a commercial machine that has a lot of stuff for far less than the $25K you originally stated.

You are absolutely correct that the commercial machines are bigger and heavier and cannot be used in locations or users that have limited space.  In these cases a smaller machine like yours would be perfect.

I recognize that you have been designing since 1988, but overall some firms look at other aspects.  For example, some companies consider smaller firms to be a risk.  For example the smaller firm could close or go out of business for financial or health reasons, loss of key staff, litigation, etc.  I do not know the size of your firm, but I am small firm and these are issues I face daily despite being in business (Engineering) for 20 years.  What I have found, and presented to you, is that if the price is over $5K or so, then the product falls under greater scrutiny and usually requires more than one or two people to make a decision. When this happens the "risks" I have stated come into question.  This may completely unfair and unfounded, but this is what I have found.

Again, please do not have my comments deter you on your project... the comments are simply feedback and/or a perspective that you may or may not have considered.

Cheers,

Sam
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: jelmer on April 04, 2014, 02:55:56 am
Why did you design it with only a single head? Wouldn't having 2 heads and the advancing pin on the back of the gantry, like the TM240A, result in a much higher component placement speed?
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on April 04, 2014, 06:55:22 am
Quote
Why did you design it with only a single head? Wouldn't having 2 heads and the advancing pin on the back of the gantry, like the TM240A, result in a much higher component placement speed?

The double head design like the TM240A has the advantage to work without nozzle changer I use two different nozzles on each head so it could place sometimes 2 components on one movement.

SMT700 uses a nozzle changer and could reach a higher speed without vibrations.

My machine controller software could drive 4 heads but this is an expensive license option.
I did not choose this version because I don't like the drag system on my TM240 because it has large tolerances.
Maybe we could build a second head version having this feature I am thinking about it.

Thank you for the good suggestion.

Best regards
Michael
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on April 05, 2014, 12:36:19 pm
I finished nozzle design task.

(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_Noozles92.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_Noozles91.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_Noozles90.jpg)
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on April 07, 2014, 04:35:08 am
Some new impressions.
I refine the head design.

(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_93.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_94.jpg)
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on April 20, 2014, 05:57:10 pm
The head design is mostly finished
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/smt700_head_99.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_100.jpg)
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on May 29, 2014, 05:45:07 pm
I did a new stencil printer design it will be avaliable before machine production starts.

It can print 300x200mm stencils and is used for prototyping.

The PCB is fixed by magnetic holders so you can reach any position on the working platform.

Our adjustment range is +/- 5mm and +/- 2 degrees.
We used a stable and precision design and a magnetic fixture fore the stencil holder if pulled down.
The Z axis could be moved to adjust the PCB thickness.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: maddoc on May 30, 2014, 09:47:46 pm
Looks good, when will it be available? Specifics please. The site only hand a simple banner and nothing else.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: metRo_ on June 05, 2014, 01:50:37 am
what is the price tag for the stencil printer?
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on June 05, 2014, 07:28:36 am
The complete description will be finished next week we plan to resell the printer between 480 to 520 USD depends on the manufacturing costs.

I finished the design.


(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/Outline.png)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/Stencilprinter_V1_1.120.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/Stencilprinter_V1_1.122.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/Stencilprinter_V1_1.123.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/Stencilprinter_V1_1g.125.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/Stencilprinter_V1_1g.126.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/Stencilprinter_V1_1g.127.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/Stencilprinter_V1_1g.128.jpg)
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on June 20, 2014, 04:18:48 pm
SMALLSMT Stencil printer STP300

The design is finished we plan to resell the printer for 499USD.
We can print up to 200x300mm size.
You can adjust the workplate in X and Y direction for +/- 5mm.
Theta adjustment is in the Range of +/- 2°.
The initial board placement is done by moving the magnetic fixtures on the workplate.
It is possible to use varios stencil sizes by adjusting the stencil holder.

(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/Outline.png)

Here are the final pictures

(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/Stencilprinter_final.130.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/Stencilprinter_final.132.jpg)
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: sam512bb on June 20, 2014, 09:23:09 pm
Good day Supertronic,
Your stencil printer looks excellent!  Are you planning to make a larger version of your stencil printer?  I ask, as the 200mm tends to be a little small.  That being said, your price point looks good.  When will these be available and will you be shipping them from Germany?
Cheers,
Sam
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on June 24, 2014, 06:41:40 pm
Hi Sam,
The product will be shipped from Shanghai or maybe Germany.
This is a precision printer for prototype boards up to 300x200mm print area.
It need’s not so much space like the big  A3 sized printer.
You can fix prototype stencils at different sizes.
Which size do you need we plan a second size too.
I hope we begin the shipping end of August.
Best regards
Michael
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: sam512bb on June 25, 2014, 03:23:58 pm
Good day Michael,
Thank you for the additional information! For my prototyping, etc your 300x200 would be ok, but sometimes I panelize my designs and so I need a larger area to accommodate the panel... and so 400x300 or so would take care of virtually everything I would do. In fact, I recently purchased an inexpensive one off of Ebay and its size is 440x320. 
Cheers,
Sam
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: maddoc on July 02, 2014, 09:33:51 pm
Looks really good. When your ready to ship, please provide specifics on ordering.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: maddoc on July 02, 2014, 09:34:32 pm
What's the status on your PnP machine. That also looked promising.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on July 05, 2014, 12:20:40 pm
Hi maddoc,

we are on the timeline the machine will be ready end of the year.
Currently we are testing some of our new constructions to finish the machine prototype end of summer.
We need to check the design of the clutches.
The base construction is finished I need to draw the parts mounted in the base compartment of the SMT700.

Regards
Michael
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on July 05, 2014, 12:23:36 pm
Quote
Looks really good. When your ready to ship, please provide specifics on ordering.

You can place your order on our website soon www.smallsmt.com (http://www.smallsmt.com).
We will also sell on Ebay.

Regards
Michael
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: JohnSL on September 03, 2014, 05:06:13 am
Any update? I clicked on the link above and it displays a single page with no input fields or links. This looks like a really nice machine, and I'm wondering how the prototype is coming along.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on September 03, 2014, 07:14:30 am
Hi John,

we are delayed because we need to change the manufacturer of the mechanics.
But we hope to release in the first quater of 2015.

Best regards
Michael
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: Nachbar2006 on October 06, 2014, 05:54:33 pm
Lob & Anerkennung, das Teil macht einen sehr guten Eindruck.
:-)

Wie bereits am Telefon gesagt:
Halte mich auf dem Laufenden, ich werde 100% eine "Komplettausstattung" ordern, sobald das Gerät verfügbar ist.... versprochen !

Mal so nebenbei bemerkt: Der Siebdrucker macht auch einen guten Eindruck....wird eine Kombi-Order werden.

Alles Gute und "Weiter so !"

....ein lieber Gruß
Jan
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on October 08, 2014, 07:54:15 pm
Vielen Dank für das Lob wir werden unser Bestes geben :)
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: spoolofwire on November 18, 2014, 10:16:35 pm
I was wondering if you had any updates? Are we still planning on the first quarter of 2015?

Also, I believe you said this would come with
Quote
3 feeder cassettes


Is this saying initially I could place 3 different parts or 30? (I'm hoping it's 30) :)

Thanks in Advance,

-J
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on November 21, 2014, 12:30:04 pm
[quote author="spoolofwire"]I was wondering if you had any updates? Are we still planning on the first quarter of 2015?

Also, I believe you said this would come with
Quote
3 feeder cassettes


Is this saying initially I could place 3 different parts or 30? (I'm hoping it's 30) :)

Thanks in Advance,

-J[/quote]

Hi we are still developing a 60 feeder line version but you can buy in different variants.

We release a first machine with dual head, vision and 33 feeder lines in January!

Best regards
Michael
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on December 08, 2014, 08:02:01 pm
First of all we are releasing our new SMT500D in January.
It's a Chinese machine having two pick and place heads and pneumatic push feeders.
The machine has 20x 8mm feeder lines and 13 mixed lines or additional 16x 8mm feeder lines.
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT500D_001s.jpg)

The construction for a new machine "made in Germany goes on" we have a new design called SMT600 because a big 700x700mm machine is to expensive to build in Germany.
Our machine has up to 60 exchangeable feeder line in 6 groups having 10x 8mm feeder lines.

My first question is I want to use expensive Faulhaber Swiss linear servos for the head design wich have the best performance and dynamics.
http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xZSWEAdK07I
(http://http://www.faulhaber.com/Bilddatenbank/Applications/format1/fau_appl_scantisch3.jpg) (c) www.faulhaber.com (http://www.faulhaber.com)

Do you think this money should be spend?
I like to do a high precision reliable design not too cheap like our Chinese competitors.

The costs for one pick and place head are 580€ But we get a Z axis position information and all error checks possible if the head touches the pcb too hard maybe.
We use Samsung CP45 nozzles and try to build a nozzle changer for it.
(http://http://smtparts.com/products/images/8298/j9055139b-samsung-cp45-nozzle-cn220-w.jpg?240,240,0,100,80,16777215,341564037) (c) www.smtparts.com (http://www.smtparts.com)
It is possible to use 2 heads and servo drives for x and y axis.

The machine price will be above 6500€ please give me your opinion about my design ideas.

Best regards
Michael
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: spoolofwire on December 09, 2014, 05:03:18 pm
I might be in the minority of people interested in your machine - I'm someone who's looking for something not too expensive.

I'd like something reliable that works well and obviously needs vision. I have a project that has over 50 pieces so I'd need something that could handle more tape and reels than what the competition does.

That being said I'm also an engineer and understand that people want something that can do everything and sometimes a single product can't do everything so take my opinion with the understand that I might want something that's impossible.

What would work for me would be something that I can buy (on a budget if it's going to cost ~6,500 euros that's a lot to spend) but what if it could be designed with the consideration for upgrading it later on? (again I understand that this might be asking way to much)

but could the product be built with a cheaper head and servos and then later on after I get the basic "shell" of the machine could I get upgraded parts - or get a kit from you that would have the better servos and head and such?

That way you'd still get the same amount of money out of me the customer but rather over time as my budget could allow. maybe I'd find out that yes I need something that could be more precise (like the servos you mentioned) or maybe I'd need that better head that samsung makes?

but could it be an up-gradable path? I understand that this makes it a lot more complicated to design different parts into the system - and perhaps that difficulty is impossible for you to achieve at this time. but for someone like myself where spending 6,500 USD (which I think is the price you quoted initially) but now it's changing to 6,500 Euros - that's a pretty big increase. and I don't know if I could swallow that entire amount at once. over time if the product worked well and it was saving me money from hand building than yes, I'd like to move that route and upgrade to better parts.

However, I know I'm more of the minority and rather than getting a setup just for prototypes I'd rather have a system for a long term production of a small product I'd build and sell in my basement. After reading the news about how Sony Pictures database was stolen and things posted online I'm a bit concerned about sending my entire design files to a board house somewhere and wonder about how secure that design would be kept. I'd rather not have them get hacked and suddenly cheap knock offs are coming from a different part of the world after I've spend a lot of time and resources developing my own product.

Also, if I understand your post correctly the SMT500D is a new design that will be for sale in Jan 2015. Is this product different from the original product you started talking about (SMT700) I'm assuming yes but just wanting to clarify.

I also thought the SMT700 was going to come with initial feeders but we could buy additions feeders if we needed them. So is this SMT500D following that same idea? what's the max number of feeders it could support and what will it initially come with?

Is the SMT600 going to replace the SMT700? so I should forget the SMT700 at this time? and does the SMT600 follow the same design as the SMT700 other than it's smaller?

Also, you mentioned the SMT600 as a 600mm x 600mm is this the size area that the entire machine takes up on a table or workbench? or is this the size of the area that it can place component? (so it could support stuffing a board that was up to 600mm x 600mm?

sorry if these questions seem a bit simple but I'm just trying to clarify.

thanks for your time,

-J
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on December 10, 2014, 06:46:37 am
Thank you for your long explanation.

The price I mentioned is for a 60 feeder line complete equipped machine meeting CE and EU machine directive and is made in Germany.
The SMT600 is an manufacturing improved design of SMT700 and will have all the features of SMT700 only a different design.
I think about the upgrade parts if it is possible to do.
We will have a range of different equipped machines for lower prices.
But First of all the performance of the high end system must be defined and I asked for the head servos because they are so expensive.
I give you an example: All of the Chinese machines use light sensors for the limit switches (having problems with stray light and changing light conditions).
But the reference need to be measured very accurate because every position on the machine depends on this. You will get feeder errors or misalignment if there are differences in your reference position.
I use expensive swiss limit switches to get a reference position error between +/- 0.01mm.

The pricing for SMT600 isn't fixed depends on configuration and performance!

The SMT500D is at a price of 6800USD for a double head machine having
- 300x250mm board size
- double head
- The machine has 19x 8mm feeder lines and 13 mixed lines or additional 16x 8mm feeder lines.
  so total 35x 8mm lines as maximum
- It uses Samsung CP45 nozzles no changer
- 2 pneumatic push feeder to forward the strips independend from the head
- Vision system having 2 bottom cameras with different focal length and one head camera for fiducial alignment and teach in  programming
- user definable pickup positions on the machine working area for parts in strips or TQFP
- English PC Software
- Internal motion controller USB connection to the PC


Regards
Michael
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: phangmoh on December 11, 2014, 01:34:02 pm
Hi Michael,

Is the SMT500D a modified machine of the TM240A?
I was hoping that it could fall below USD5K initially...
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on December 11, 2014, 08:33:42 pm
Hi,
no it's a new development not compareable to TM240A.
It's not running standalone like TM240A it needs a PC and compressed air.
The machine can feed using the push feeder while placing.
It has a comfortable vision system to align components.

The list price for a TM240A is 4990USD!

Look here for a working video of SMT500D  http://https://www.dropbox.com/s/q1zqnkid7mwotwa/MVI_2190.MOV

Here is a placement job I did after good adjustment of TM240A and at maximum possible placement speed.
Higher speed setting decrease the accuracy because of resulting vibrations on higher speeds while the axis are moving.

My old TM240A working video http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/DSCN1324.MOV
Placement result  http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/DSCN1325.JPG
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: sam512bb on December 12, 2014, 05:59:46 pm
[quote author="supertronic"]<snip>

Look here for a working video of SMT500D  http://https://www.dropbox.com/s/q1zqnkid7mwotwa/MVI_2190.MOV
<snip>
[/quote]

Good day Michael,

Very nice!  Well done!

How does the SMT500D handle:

a. Parts not on tape
...i.e. parts in tubes, trays, etc

b. Parts that are on tape, but larger...
... i.e. bigger electrolytics, etc

What is the maximum part height the machine can support?

Lastly, for larger parts do you have to manually change the nozzle?

Cheers,

Sam
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on December 14, 2014, 10:24:14 pm
Hi Sam,

Thank you for your compliments.

The machine can handle parts in trays or strips but you need additional holder for it.
You can define "soft feeders" if you have space in your working area.
You only need to set the X/Y position of the first part, the distance to the next part, how many rows and columns are used.
The placement process takes care if there are enough parts left.
If you fill up the parts you need to reset the soft feeder line.

Sorry we have no vibration feeder for this machine.

The SMT500D supports up to 10mm part height but it is not possible to feed parts higher than 5mm in standard feeder line.
Maybe you do a modification to support this.
Our Software support individual Z axis pickup positions for every feeder line if you need different heights in Feeder block.

Unfortunally the machine has no automatic nozzle changer it's like TM240A but you can change manual during a placement job.

Best regards
Michael
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: phangmoh on December 24, 2014, 05:30:57 am
Hi Michael,

Quote
13 mixed lines
I can use 12 mm & 16 mm with these lines right?

Is shipping included in the price?

What OS you need to run on the PC?
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on December 25, 2014, 09:20:13 am
Hi,
Quote
I can use 12 mm & 16 mm with these lines right?
Yes one configuration has 4x8mm, 5x12mm, 2x 16mm, 1x 24mm (NORTH FEEDER)

Quote
Is shipping included in the price?
Normally not but we can give a discount maybe.

Quote
What OS you need to run on the PC?
It needs Windows XP or above a good choice is Windows 7 ultimate (cheap / stable / multilanguage)

Best regards
Michael
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: spoolofwire on December 27, 2014, 04:49:25 am
Michael,

Hey just another question I've been wondering. If I get one of your machines is it reasonably possible to program it for a single board? (verse a panel)

with my designs I usually get a board house that will do a batch lot of several different pcbs on a panel and I'll get maybe 3 or 9 single pcb boards of my design. Would it be possibly to program your machine to do a single one up board? or are there boarders or a minimum board size required? From the download link you posted of the SMT500D it looked like it the PCB was held down in between those two metal brackets. So is there a minimal size those brackets can go down to? or were they just running along the edge of the PCB and there was no part of the PCB being held under those brackets?

I was wondering since it has vision which (if I place fiducials correctly) I would imagine it could correct for the individual differences between these one up boards that I purchase.

Also if it is possible to do a single small board, how (or what) is the process of moving to say a panel board? would I be starting a new program from scratch? or would take the basic x and y program from Altium and then maybe do some adjustments in excel? and take that file and go from there?

or does the software with your machines automatically do this for me and I would just say I'm going form a single board to a board that has 2 x 5 (total of 10 boards) and give the x and y difference between the original board and the new layout. (This would be ideal or perhaps there is a better way that I'm unaware of? as I haven't used a pick and place machine yet)

Do you have any idea when your SMT600 will be coming along? I won't be able to go with the SMT500D as it doesn't support enough different tape and reels for my projects.

Thanks for your time,

-J
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on January 12, 2015, 08:53:14 am
Hi,

Quote
Hey just another question I've been wondering. If I get one of your machines is it reasonably possible to program it for a single board? (verse a panel)

The software support panelizing or different boards in one job no problem.
So one easy way is to define the boards in a row and how many columns you use and define the X / Y spacing.
After this you can check the position of each board and adjust. Now it is possible to add 2 fiducioals for each board in the panel.

Quote
I was wondering since it has vision which (if I place fiducials correctly) I would imagine it could correct for the individual differences between these one up boards that I purchase.

Yes you can define a set of two fiducials for each board you define in the placement area.

Best regards
Michael
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on January 16, 2015, 10:42:23 pm
Here is a preview of the new SMT600 design.

There are hundred things to do but the basic design is shown.

(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT600C_preview.png)
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: Iztok on February 07, 2015, 11:49:34 am
Hi Michael
I am following your posts with great interest and it is highly possible I will purchase one from you. You designed SMT pick and place SMT600 and SMT700 just I was imagine my "dream" SMT machine with low cost interchangeable feeders.

I am designing different products for relative small markets. Because human life is in danger, when using most of mine products, I need high reliability and high accuracy P&P machine. Quantities are too small to purchase big machine, I have limited space and I have not full controll over product when assembled by subcontractors. Somethimes they're not using my material and RF modules are not working as they should or not at all.
At your design I appreciate a lot the way of your approach. You gave highest priority to quality and precision, while price is in second plan. Congratulations this is the right way !!  I have enough of bad quality products on market made just for generating profit. 

I believe, that you have worldwide huge potential, producing HIGH END, SMALL business affordable P&P machines. 
For me most important criteria are in following order:
- High precision vision supported pick and place (0402, 0603, 0805,...)
- interchangeable feeders sets. (No need for single reel feeder)
- affordable price for small business.
- versatility for other type of feeders
- automatic nozzle changer (I like your nozzle design, SUPER)
- speed, NOT LESS THAN 1.000pcs/h
- good support

Looking forward to receive from you direct contact since I am 99% sure we will make a deal.

My ISM module 433MHz, 868MHz in 0603. Would like to go on 0402 in future: 
PICTURE: I can't post the picture of module, so I will send link to private message.

Best regards
Iztok,  EU
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: phangmoh on February 17, 2015, 02:55:12 am
Quote
First of all we are releasing our new SMT500D in January.

As I didn't see updates on your web until now, I searched on Taobao for your machine.
It is priced at Yuan 29502.00 which translate to USD4700. I believe it is the same machine.
Is there any reason for the price differences (international warranty, different quality made for international)?
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: LordBlick on February 20, 2015, 04:21:54 am
I'm interested to buy, but where ? If communication API will be available, then it will be allowable to adopt to Linux, which is available even on Raspberry Pi…
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on February 23, 2015, 01:38:01 pm
Quote
As I didn't see updates on your web until now, I searched on Taobao for your machine.
It is priced at Yuan 29502.00 which translate to USD4700. I believe it is the same machine.
Is there any reason for the price differences (international warranty, different quality made for international)?

Yes our machine has some modifications and we do the complete support and documentation.
So we need to earn money to do.
The only reason why I didn't start is the machine controller and software will be updated for VP-2000D by the manufacturer and we need to test again.

There are some availiable having the oursmt software.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on February 23, 2015, 01:45:58 pm
Quote
I'm interested to buy, but where ? If communication API will be available, then it will be allowable to adopt to Linux, which is available even on Raspberry Pi…

I am back from China now.

We are working hard on the release of the SMT600 machine because it's build complete in Germany.

The software is running on a Windows 7 / 8 based PC maybe possible to port to Linux too.

All the machine hardware is custom designed and  modular.
For the motion controller for X and Y axis we use a TinyG controller.
Our placement had has an own controller with can bus interface and is exchangeable.

Our complete machine is upgradeable one or two heads, vaccuum pump inside, different type of feeders like drag- tray- and vibration feeders.

Servo motors for X and Y axis.

Low-cost or high end vision system using industrial grade cameras and optional on the fly vision system too.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: LordBlick on February 24, 2015, 02:52:25 pm
[quote author="supertronic"]We are working hard on the release of the SMT600 machine because it's build complete in Germany.[/quote]
I'm from Poland, so direct reception of the machine is not a problem. EU VAT ID too - I have got small business with projecting/producing microcontroller applications.
[quote author="supertronic"]The software is running on a Windows 7 / 8 based PC maybe possible to port to Linux too.[/quote]I'm also Python programmer, much time spending on KiCAD scripting, so I can cooperate with my knowledge. Porting to Python is also independent of the operating system, because that development platform exists in practically ever OS.
Was this a correct guess is that communicate through the USB-RS?
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on February 24, 2015, 07:43:25 pm
Quote
I'm also Python programmer, much time spending on KiCAD scripting, so I can cooperate with my knowledge. Porting to Python is also independent of the operating system, because that development platform exists in practically ever OS.
Was this a correct guess is that communicate through the USB-RS?

The communication interface is a USB / serial interface for the motion controller and a USB CAN bus bridge for feeder and placement head.

But all of the vision processing is done by the PC software so maybe it is easier to port to linux by using the MONO project.

I hope to provide an API interface to add user custom functions.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on April 24, 2015, 02:13:35 pm
[quote author="phangmoh"]
Quote
First of all we are releasing our new SMT500D in January.

As I didn't see updates on your web until now, I searched on Taobao for your machine.
It is priced at Yuan 29502.00 which translate to USD4700. I believe it is the same machine.
Is there any reason for the price differences (international warranty, different quality made for international)?[/quote]

This machine couldn't released because the software had to many problems.
Now the new machine software is finished and has an impressive speed using vision system.
I show a sample video on our website wiki.smallsmt.com.

Our machines where produced meeting our requirements for international standards.
We support you using the machines so we need to earn money too.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on April 24, 2015, 02:30:49 pm
Here is the new machine control software for VP-2000D machines formerly called SMT500D.

The user interface is reduced to the functions you need and the vision windows is embedded.
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/VP-2000_sw_main.png)

This is the pcb panelizing dialog:
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/VP-2000_sw_pcbpanelize.png)

And here the feeder setup dialog showing how to define a tray feeder inside working area.
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/VP-2000_sw_feedersetup.png)

The front panel is now modified and has some additional buttons to Start, Pause, and Stop a job and cursor buttons to move the machine too.

Here is the video link http://https://www.dropbox.com/s/gpw2rwmddy1axvi/VID_20150202_203553.mp4?dl=0

And here are the results
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/vp-2000_result_detail1.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/vp-2000_result_detail2.jpg)
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: Iztok on May 02, 2015, 09:39:16 am
Hi Supersonic, M.
This vision two heads version is just what I need. As I see 0603 are aligned OK so it will be easy to handel 0402 too.  Looking forward for any news about progress.
BR Iztok
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on June 25, 2015, 11:43:11 am
Hi,

I am now back from China.
I visited Neoden, Qihe and our manufacturer Yusheng.
This weekend I write a report about the features of TM245P, TVM802, and our new machines.

Regards
Michael
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: tonnyneoden on June 26, 2015, 11:13:56 am
Hello Michael,
This is Tonny(Overseas Market Dept.) from Neoden Tech,we are the manufacturer of PNP Machine-TM245P.

It's so strange that we haven't served one customer who's name is Michael,are you sure you have visited us ?
Who is the receiver of your visiting ?
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on June 27, 2015, 10:58:27 am
Yes I visited you together with Sunny.
The TMP245P is a big improvement against the TM240.
I write a review soon.
Mia knows me too because I was one of the first overseas customers for TM240 machine.

Best regards
Michael
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: drogo on July 14, 2015, 10:25:41 pm
How is it going with the machine? Can I order the machine already? Is there a known lead time for me in the Netherlands?
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on July 15, 2015, 10:13:31 am
Hi Drogo,

yes you can order both machines already we planned to ramp up in 08/2015.
The machines have a lead time between 3 and 6 weeks.

Both versions are availiable now.

VP-2000D max. 36 x 8mm feeders, build in tray option,  240 x 270mm working area
VP-2500D max. 51 x 8mm feeders, build in tray option,  360 x 320mm working area
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on July 20, 2015, 12:32:18 pm
Hi,
I just started a new website for our SMT machines.
There are some things not completed yet but we improve every day.
Feel free to have a look.

www.smallsmt.biz (http://www.smallsmt.biz)

Best regards
Michael
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: spoolofwire on August 09, 2015, 06:18:49 am
[quote author="supertronic"]Hi Drogo,

yes you can order both machines already we planned to ramp up in 08/2015.
The machines have a lead time between 3 and 6 weeks.

Both versions are availiable now.

VP-2000D max. 36 x 8mm feeders, build in tray option,  240 x 270mm working area
VP-2500D max. 51 x 8mm feeders, build in tray option,  360 x 320mm working area[/quote]


You also said in this thread back in Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:46 am

[quote author="supertronic"]
Thank you for your long explanation.

The price I mentioned is for a 60 feeder line complete equipped machine meeting CE and EU machine directive and is made in Germany.
The SMT600 is an manufacturing improved design of SMT700 and will have all the features of SMT700 only a different design.
I think about the upgrade parts if it is possible to do.
We will have a range of different equipped machines for lower prices.
But First of all the performance of the high end system must be defined and I asked for the head servos because they are so expensive.
I give you an example: All of the Chinese machines use light sensors for the limit switches (having problems with stray light and changing light conditions).
But the reference need to be measured very accurate because every position on the machine depends on this. You will get feeder errors or misalignment if there are differences in your reference position.
I use expensive swiss limit switches to get a reference position error between +/- 0.01mm.

The pricing for SMT600 isn't fixed depends on configuration and performance!

The SMT500D is at a price of 6800USD for a double head machine having
- 300x250mm board size
- double head
- The machine has 19x 8mm feeder lines and 13 mixed lines or additional 16x 8mm feeder lines.
so total 35x 8mm lines as maximum
- It uses Samsung CP45 nozzles no changer
- 2 pneumatic push feeder to forward the strips independend from the head
- Vision system having 2 bottom cameras with different focal length and one head camera for fiducial alignment and teach in programming
- user definable pickup positions on the machine working area for parts in strips or TQFP
- English PC Software
- Internal motion controller USB connection to the PC


Regards
Michael[/quote]


So just to clarify initially you were going to build two different machines:

1. SMT500D (which supported 35 8mm feeder lines)
2. SMT600 (which supported 60 8 mm feeder lines)

your machines on your website have changed in name and I'm just trying to understand which machine is which.

or are both machines variants of the SMT500D and you will still have have a 60+ line feed machines in the near future?

Thanks,

-J
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on August 09, 2015, 09:38:28 am
Hi,
Quote
are both machines variants of the SMT500D and you will still have have a 60+ line feed machines in the near future?

First of all I started the thread to build a new modular machine having vision system, exchangeable feeders and easy to use interface and software.
The production costs for this type of machine are very high and all efforts to find a good production partner in China failed.
So i decided to build a second design named SMT600 having a different construction and less custom parts to build this system in Germany.
But finally the market changes soo much and machines above 10000USD are not easy to sell.
We decided to support our manufacturer to improve their machines and software and now we are general agent for foreign country's.

The naming was changed to
VP-2000D for the small machine
VP-2500D for our improved bigger machine having a better price vs performance value

We provide support and improvements of software and hardware too.

These two machines was planned for entry level before so it's not to much change in our strategy.

In the near future Neoden will sell their quad head vision machine at >= 10000USD having fixed feeders so we can only improve quality and flexibility if we sell a machine above VP-2500D.
But the production costs for our VP-3000D machine are higher so we maybe can't refinance the development.

If you need more than 52 feeder's we can sell a VP-2500D having additional east feeder too adding 27 feeders.

So our plan is to monitor the market and if it improves we sell the VP-3000D.
We have a nice solution now and it's easy to use 2 machines to build a productionline having mor than 100 feeder lines.

Finally I need to say I use our machines for production too and if I was not satisfied I never sell to you.
I know all advantages and problems you receive by using our machines.
We try to improve our machines constantly and provide the updates to you.

So feel free to visit our site and view all the new informations I posted in the past days.
http://http://www.smallsmt.biz/ home
http://http://www.smallsmt.biz/vision-placer-vp-2x00d/ Machine introduction
http://http://www.smallsmt.biz/know-how/ KNOW HOW section

Our next developments are
- vibrational feeders
- software additions to improve the usability
- automatic measurements
- dispenser options
- more feeders

The last sentence is we received a machine having all the options except the exchangeable feeders!

Best regards
Michael
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: phangmoh on August 09, 2015, 01:38:14 pm
Quote
In the near future Neoden will sell their quad head vision machine at >= 10000USD
I don't think it's nice to speculate the price of a yet to be released machine.

And personally, a competitive and affordable price for a pick and place machine plays an important role for people like us on the forum.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on August 09, 2015, 04:29:10 pm
Yes sure the price rating was told to me by Neoden but it may change sure.
But I think it's ok for a quad head machine having 50+ feeders and vision so it's not a bad deal!
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: JustMe on October 10, 2015, 02:28:15 am
I have seen the new neoden with Vision and conveyer. The price is ok but as of last week they were charging U$60 per feeder!!!!!!!
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on October 10, 2015, 03:16:18 pm
What's the price now?
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: JustMe on October 10, 2015, 06:12:16 pm
7499 usd$ with conveyer 6488 without . In China . No feeders included. Can take 48 feeders.
Price is about 69/79/99 USD per pcs For feeder 12/16/24.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: JustMe on October 10, 2015, 06:29:51 pm
here are some pics
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: phangmoh on October 11, 2015, 09:21:05 am
[quote author="JustMe"]Price is about 69/79/99 USD per pcs For feeder 12/16/24.[/quote]

The good thing about this is the feeder is not fix. You only buy what you need. Along the way, if you need more, then only you add.

I think the new machine is not competing with any of the similar desktop machine, in fact is has venture into other larger machine territory. So, for that price it is still a bargain but probably not so cheap for smaller maker unless you are churning out few hundred boards a month at least.

Saw the very first prototype few months back in flesh!
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: JustMe on October 11, 2015, 11:01:40 am
I agree but I want to see it in action. Every time I went to China they couldn't demonstrate it. I will be back next month to see how good it actually works. The build is solid the feeders are great but I still need to see software and vision in action. I am hoping it delivers. I really want it to be good and get one
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: phangmoh on October 12, 2015, 03:43:01 am
[quote author="JustMe"]I want to see it in action.[/quote]
Was lucky enough to catch it picking up 0402 parts and managed to catch a glimpse on the software. Software looks clean and not complicated. So, your photo is from their booth in SEG judging from their yellow table!

Really like the fact many good design aspect of the TM245P was brought over to this new machine.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on October 12, 2015, 12:45:18 pm
Does anyone know the placement precision because it's a belt driven machine?
How about the software defined feeders and where to place a tray to pickup TQFP or other ic's.
I know they use a PC board inside is the software windows or linux based?

Regards
Michael
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: tonnyneoden on November 04, 2015, 04:08:18 am
Hello All,
This is Tonny from NeoDen Tech.

Glad to inform you our new model-NeoDen4(have camera) had been released to overseas market on 2nd,Nov.2015,
you can find details via all our platform(Ali-Express,Alibaba,Made in China,Global Sources,Ebay,Etc.).

Any questions for our machines,pls feel free contact us.
Skype:tonny-neoden

Thank you for all of your supports on NeoDen Tech's machines.

Best wishes to all of you.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on November 04, 2015, 03:09:05 pm
Hi Tonny,

why didn't you answer the questions?
Please send us some information about the new machine showing the software interface too.

Best regards
Michael
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: tonnyneoden on November 05, 2015, 09:02:25 am
Hello Michael and all,
The positioning accuracy for NeoDen4 is 0.02mm,support put the IC Tray at the working area directly,similar like our TM245P.
Internal software is Windows XP,tks.

If need more details,pls feel free contact us,tks.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on November 05, 2015, 01:29:26 pm
Hi Tonny,
you mean the positioning resolution is 0.02mm not the placement accuracy.
I saw some demos of your machine and can't believe this!

Where can we find some information about the user interface?

Best regards
Michael
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on December 26, 2015, 12:53:14 pm
Hi,

now we are able to sell our High Precision machines VP-2500HP and VP-2800HP now using servo motor, linear guides and spindle instead of belt drive.
The machines can be equipped with West , North and East feeder blocks so you have up to 100 possible feeder lines in one machine.

We will release a new reflow oven having 7" touch panel controller including fully remote access and reflow profile downloads from our website in 1Q2015.

A new 4 head machine is in development to increase the placement speed and eliminate nozzle changes.

We offer entry level single head pnp machine soon (2Q 2016) to cover the needs in many maker spaces to receive a vision based pnp machine for a low price.

Best regards
Michael
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: JustMe on December 26, 2015, 06:01:42 pm
Getting the neoden 4 next week. Did see it in action and am very impressed. It's not perfect but promises to be a big step up. Especially the electric feeders seem to make life easier as I was having some problems with the prick mover from time to time on my QiHe. I maxed out the feeders so that I don't have to run multiple passes...
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: tonnyneoden on December 31, 2015, 03:05:20 am
Hello All,
Happy New Year.

We would like to wish you and your family a prosperous New Year.We also would like to take this opportunity to say thank you for your continuously attention and support to NeoDen Tech's products,feel so happy & pleasant to cooperate with you in 2015.

Hope you have a much more better business in the coming year-2016  :-)

Sincerely yours,
Tonny

Skype:tonny-neoden

(http://https://www.dropbox.com/s/ndzj18enz5i7696/Happy%20New%20Year.jpg?dl=0)
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: slavka012 on January 04, 2016, 06:49:57 pm
I ended up buying TVM802B. Very solid construction, but there are some annoying limitations, mostly imposed by the s/w that runs on the PC. The good thing though is that the machine is almost entirely controlled from the PC over Ethernet. I already looked at the protocol and it seems to be reasonably easy to decipher. I'm going to write a new s/w for the machine to make it really usable.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: JustMe on January 04, 2016, 07:25:31 pm
I ran into the same limitations with my TVM802. any upgraded software would be awesome
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on February 04, 2016, 08:52:42 am
Hi,

we reached a new milestone the VP-2500HP spindle machine can place 0201 using vision alignment.

The video you find  Twitter http://http://www.twitter.com/smallsmt

You see 0402 and 0201 parts placed using vision alignment while machine was running on mid speed.
For the 0201 placement this was the first test I think it is possible to improve by tuning the speed parameters!

(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/VP-2500HP_placing0201b.jpg)


Machine descriptions http://www.smallsmt.biz/home/vision-placer-vp-2x00d/ (http://http://www.smallsmt.biz/home/vision-placer-vp-2x00d/)

Shop catalog http://www.smallsmt.biz/shop-catalog/ (http://http://www.smallsmt.biz/shop-catalog/)

VP-2500HP machine used for this test run.

(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/VP-2500HPfront.JPG)

Top view of VP-2500HP machine having 3 side feeders.
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/VP-2500HPtop.JPG)
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: slavka012 on February 12, 2016, 01:33:42 am
Well ok I now had an opportunity to work with TVM802B for some time. Right now my biggest issue with the machine is the peeling mechanism. It sucks tremendously.

If you are buying this machine, plan on scrapping it and building a new peeling mechanism. The one they have is extremely unreliable. See, it depends on the friction in the roller to be set precisely. Too little, and it is not enough force to peel the cover tape. Too much, and it pulls through the carrier tape. The problem is, even if you adjust it to just perfect tension, it does not stay at that level. So once in a while the same tape might sometimes not peel, or sometimes pull too much.

in my recent run 2 out of 20 feeders could not be adjusted to reliable operation.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on February 12, 2016, 08:08:27 am
That's the reason we have walk through tape winders.

Quote
Well ok I now had an opportunity to work with TVM802B for some time. Right now my biggest issue with the machine is the peeling mechanism. It sucks tremendously.

If you are buying this machine, plan on scrapping it and building a new peeling mechanism. The one they have is extremely unreliable. See, it depends on the friction in the roller to be set precisely. Too little, and it is not enough force to peel the cover tape. Too much, and it pulls through the carrier tape. The problem is, even if you adjust it to just perfect tension, it does not stay at that level. So once in a while the same tape might sometimes not peel, or sometimes pull too much.

in my recent run 2 out of 20 feeders could not be adjusted to reliable operation.

- your second TVM802B big problem is the vision system because of stray light problems!
- the third TVM802B problem is the feeder line if you use parts in plastic tapes because the drag needle precision is not good too ( this is a similar problem for TM240A too)

I used Neoden TM240 before and TVM802B is a copy of it and had problems with the spool too because the friction changes over time and if you start the diameter is low but after some tape is on the spool the diameter changes and friction changes too.

Our winder has no friction problems.
The only problem you might receive is a cut tape if the feeder line will not be used over a long time and the system is using the feeder on other lines for more than 1500 times.
In this case it is better to move the clear tape out of the winder and fix it on the case surface.

(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/VP2X00_winder.jpg)
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: slavka012 on February 12, 2016, 05:58:02 pm
Vision actually works quite well. It locates fiducials and correct components very consistently.

Certain things are implemented stupidly in s/w. For example I was populating 5mm tall switches, and very rarely it would drop it while en route. It has pressure sensor and detects that. But instead of stopping immediately it tries to to go discard location. Now, if the button is dropped onto the feeder, it is now blocking the movement of the head. It is just nasty when it tries to move over the switch.

Pressure sensor lacks adjustment. Certain resistors are not detected by it, even though visually they are picked correctly.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on February 12, 2016, 11:12:58 pm
Hi,
try to use a suction cup made from silicone this may fix your problem.
I saw the machine in Quihe office last year and the vision system had problems with ambient light changes.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: slavka012 on February 13, 2016, 06:22:54 pm
Where do you get those? This machine accepts Juki nozzles, and Juki does not have silicon nozzles. I was thinking about putting a short piece of rubber tube onto the nozzle.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: slavka012 on February 13, 2016, 06:24:12 pm
Also, certain 0805 caps are not reliably held by the nozzle. As the head moves the caps randomly move about from the vibration.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on February 14, 2016, 04:52:11 pm
I think a small silicone tube will help you cut a piece using a sharp knife.

I found some on Ebay Germany you will find in your country too.

http://http://www.ebay.de/itm/2-Meter-Silikonschlauch-Silikon-Schlauch-Druckschlauch-hochflexibel-Grosen-2-8mm-/261746527579?var=&hash=item3cf14f0d5b:m:mcPGagplXBy1yVnBMvJRSsA
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on February 14, 2016, 04:55:11 pm
Quote
Also, certain 0805 caps are not reliably held by the nozzle. As the head moves the caps randomly move about from the vibration.

That's mostly a vibration problem you need to try on different speed to find the best result.
I had the same problem on my TM240 the vibration was up to 60% speed ok.

I don't know the Quihe software but I think you can define different speed for any part so try to decrease the speed for the caps.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: slavka012 on February 15, 2016, 01:37:48 am
I'm running it at 60% speed. It looks like at vibration is even worse at slower speeds.
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on February 15, 2016, 01:46:06 pm
Did you check the belt tension?
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on July 03, 2018, 02:59:01 pm
End of next month we release a new machine called VP-2800HP-CL64.

It has 64 CL feeder slots and 35x8mm push feeder. You can add 2 vibration feeder an North and one on South side.
We use new HD USB bootom cameras and double precision ball screw spindle.
Y axis has double linear guide line for high stablity.
The working area is bigger than 600x400mm.

We offer double with 6 slot nozzle changer and quad head version without nozzle changer.
(http://https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=1280x10000:format=jpg/path/s83b2f87d67b6ff32/image/iadbdb2945f8d0bac/version/1530618367/image.jpg)
(http://https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=1280x10000:format=jpg/path/s83b2f87d67b6ff32/image/ib0a0d4207b3cf180/version/1530618398/image.jpg)
(http://https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=1280x10000:format=jpg/path/s83b2f87d67b6ff32/image/icd077e6fbd4404bc/version/1530618386/image.jpg)
(http://https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=1280x10000:format=jpg/path/s83b2f87d67b6ff32/image/i359c1ff34be2286d/version/1530618416/image.jpg)
(http://https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=1280x10000:format=jpg/path/s83b2f87d67b6ff32/image/iffe5262cdaf0cb82/version/1530618431/image.jpg)
(http://https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/none/path/s83b2f87d67b6ff32/image/iee9af25412b02d23/version/1530618453/image.gif)
Title: Re: SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT
Post by: supertronic on September 13, 2018, 01:21:09 pm
Visit us on Maker Faire Hannover this week!
We show VP-2800HP-CL64 plus Qihe TVM925 and our new PCB inspection system.