Dangerous Prototypes

In development => Project logs => Topic started by: sparkybg on February 26, 2013, 10:11:14 pm

Title: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on February 26, 2013, 10:11:14 pm
Hi all.
T12 have thermocouple in series with the heater with a voltage of around 9mV at 450 degrees celsius, so the voltage to the heater must be turned off  to measure the voltage of the thermocouple. Don't measure the resistance of T12. It is pointless to use it when a thermocouple is already available, and is far more precise than resistance.

I have made a controller for T12 myself. Here's how it works:
- the 24V AC from transfomer is rectified but not filtered
- this rectified 24V AC is the power to the T12, and is switched on and off for a millisecond on every half period of the AC, using P channel MOSFET.
- when the voltage is turned off, the voltage of the thermocouple is available at t12 terminals, so it can be measured by an ADC in MCU
- the MCU controls the heating using slightly modified PID algothitm,  regulating how many mains periods the heater is turned on, and how many mains periods it is turned off.

The controller also works with regular irons with separate thermocouple, and have separate channels and adjustmens for T12 integrated thermocouple, and for external thermocouple. It can detect if external thermocouple is connected, and will use it. This way you can unplug the T12 iron, plug in regular iron, and the controller will detect that and regulate. The T12 tips can be changed without turning the controller off.

Here is how it looks:
[attachment=1]

[attachment=0]

I have a video on YouТube of how it works. Search for "HAKKO T15 vs ordinary HAKKO clone" and you will find it.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on February 26, 2013, 10:15:35 pm
[s:]Here are the software (MPLAB X project):
[attachment=4][/s:]

Latest version of firmware for front PCB:
[attachment=1]


Back schematic and PCB (power):
[attachment=3]

Front schematic and PCB (control):
[attachment=0]

UPDATE: Do not put the C20 and C21 capacitors on the front PCB. These were for filtering on channel 2, but are now obsolete. They cause bad readings of temperature when iron with shared connection for heater and thermocouple is used (JBC C245 for example).

Sensor schematic and PCB (it can be put in the iron stand and tells the controller when the iron is in it):
[attachment=2]

If you have any questions - feel free to ask.

P.S.: The uploaded back PCB looks a bit different than on the picture. It uses D2PAK transistors and one diode (TVS actually) is removed. Although there is a place for two mosfets on the PCB, just one 100V MOSFET with 0.06ohm resistance is enough for 70W iron. The inductor on the back pcb is 220uH 1.0A DRH125 type. Probably a smaller inductor will do also (say 100uH 0.5A).

UPDATE: If you are planning to use JBC C245 iron, you will have to uncomment the "JBC C245" section in PID.h file, comment the "25W with K thermocouple" section and recompile the project. You will have to recalibrate channel 2 for C245.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on February 27, 2013, 10:12:12 am
Nice controller, thanks for sharing.
I have some questions:

why the 25V dc is not filtered? you can save some components in the back.
I have seen that the T12 tips have a N type thermocouple. Do try to verify if it fits with the N type tables?
The C9 should not be greater due to the large noise that should be when the voltage is turned off?
I don't see a ambient temperature sensor. How do you compensate the TC cold junction?

About the sleep sensor, I think there is no need to complicate :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on February 27, 2013, 11:19:34 am
[quote author="diogoc"]
why the 25V dc is not filtered? you can save some components in the back.
[/quote]
It does not have to be filtered. The iron's heater does not care about it. And to filter it, the capacitor for 70W iron would be pretty big.
Moreover, everything in this controller is synchronised with the mains voltage. When the voltage of the secondary winding of the power transformer falls under 4V, the MOSFET turns off by itself for about 1 millisecond. After MOSFET is turned off, the MCU waits for about 500-600 microseconds and measures the voltage of the thermocouple. Very little power would be delivered to the iron heater when this voltage is under 4 volts, even if the power was not turned off, so the MCU can make a measurement of the thermocouple voltage on every mains half period without sacrificing the delivered power to the iron. Then, the PID algorithm is synchronized with the mains voltage also. So, on every mains period (every second half period in order not to destabilize the power transformer), the MCU makes measurement of the thermocouple, and makes the PID calculation. The PWM itself (actually fixed on-time and variable off-time) is also synchronized with the mains voltage.
This way the noise from the mains voltage is greatly reduced and does not penetrate the measurement of the thermocouple voltage.

[quote author="diogoc"]
I have seen that the T12 tips have a N type thermocouple. Do try to verify if it fits with the N type tables?
[/quote]
From my measurements I cannot tell if it is a K type or N type thermocouple. I will try to measure the voltage again and to make some calculations. As far as I remember, the voltage at 450 degrees celsius is around 9mV, which is around 20uV per degree.

[quote author="diogoc"]
The C9 should not be greater due to the large noise that should be when the voltage is turned off?
[/quote]
C9 is there only to prevent high frequency noise to penetrate in the measurement of the thermocouple voltage. It should be small enough in order to be able to discharge in less than 500 microseconds after the power to the heater is turned off (the heater resistance is around 10 ohms when cold and around 20 ohms when hot), and large enough to filter the high frequency noise. 10n does the job. The controller works even without this capacitor.

[quote author="diogoc"]
I don't see a ambient temperature sensor. How do you compensate the TC cold junction?
[/quote]
In fact I don't. I am using 22 degrees celsius for room temperature. I have made a measurements of the real temperature several hours after turning the controller on, and the drift is no more than 2-4 degrees. Of course, a small temeprature sensor can be added, but it will not be too precise anyway - where you should measure the temperature? At T12 terminals? At iron connector terminals?  At PCB connector terminals? At opamp legs? What if the temperature in the controller box is higher than ambient? What if the temperature at the T12 terminals is higher than ambient?

[quote author="diogoc"]
About the sleep sensor, I think there is no need to complicate :)[/quote]
It can be replaced with a simple switch - it just sends 0 or 5V to the mcu. I decided to make it optical in order to incorporate it more easily into my iron stand with minimum mechanical work. And it works great. The price of the parts is low (5 dollars max).  T12 tips heats up very quickly and as soon as I put the iron on the stand, it can lower the temperature of the tip to the desired temperature. Some seconds/minutes later it lowers it even more. After several minutes/hours it goes to sleep and turns the iron off. This way you never have a oxidized solder on the tip, and the tip life is much longer. The temperatures and time-outs are configurable and this function can be turned off if desired. The controller can work without this sensor if someone does not like it or does not need sensor at all.

For example, If I work at 350 degrees, when I put the iron in the stand, the temperature is immedieately lowered to 300 degrees, and say 20 seconds later it is lowered to 250 degrees. The iron can stay at 250 degrees for a long time, and there will not be any oxidation on the solder surface and the tip will live much longer. When you remove the iron from the stand, a T12 tip will heat up from 250 to 350 degrees in 5-7 seconds.

About calibration - the controller can be easily calibrated using 63/37 solder. The melting point of this solder is exactly 183 degrees celsius, and the controller can be calibrated to melt the solder at 184 degrees and do not melt it at 182 degrees. Because self-zeroing opamps are used, there is not offset voltage present, and once calibrated at 183 degrees, the temperature measurement is linear and correct in the whole range from 150 to 450 degrees. I have made measurements with real thermometer and confirmed this.

For example, LM358 have 2mv(typycal) offset voltage, there is also temperature drift on this voltage. This is pretty big offset for measuring a thermocouple, so there should be software or hardware offset compensation. Self-zeroing opamps doesn't need such compensation. 2uV offset is around 0.1 degrees error. That's why calibration at 183 degrees assures correct readings in the whole range from 150 to 450 degrees.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on February 27, 2013, 03:17:52 pm
Thanks for the answers.

I understand now.
But I think it is preferable to perform all the tip control by the MCU.
Turning the tip voltage off in the periods defined to make the measurements.
Probably also because in this way one can reduce the time that the MOSFET is turned off from 1 ms to 500us (for voltage stabilization) + some us to the ADC acquire.

yes to be precise the temperature sensor should be in the T12 terminals, but the temperature in the control box should not be very different and should be more accurate than without sensor because the ambient temperature can be quite different than 22°C

I did not know the self-zeroing opamps but it seems be a good option for this case.

I saw your video and I was impressed with the result.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on February 27, 2013, 05:31:30 pm
I guess I can't find this controller on tindie? ;)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 27, 2013, 05:59:21 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]
I have made a controller for T12 myself. Here's how it works:
[/quote]

nice project - perfect :D thanks for sharing.

one hint, open a separate thread, this one is already 40+ pages so it's super hard to follow. Open a new thread where you can explain & support it :) I'm sure lot of ppl have lot of questions and going trough 40 pages of a single topic is crazy hard to follow :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on February 27, 2013, 07:02:37 pm
[quote author="diogoc"]
But I think it is preferable to perform all the tip control by the MCU.
[/quote]
MCU is in total control. Is is just made synchronous to the mains voltage. The mosfet performs a bit like a triac. The MCU tells the mosfet if it should switch on next half period or not. Everything is done in 1ms. 500us before and 500us after the zero cross of the mains voltage. The PCB is much more compact this way - there is no need for big capacitors on it.

[quote author="diogoc"]
Turning the tip voltage off in the periods defined to make the measurements.
[/quote]
It is for sure turned off in the periods. Everything is totaly defined. The MCU can turn off and on the voltage to the heater at any give time if needed. 500us before mains zero cross an interrupt is generated in the MCU. In this interrupt the MCU turns off the MOSFET (although it is turned of by itself at this moment), initiates timer interrupt after 500us, and in this timer interrupt initiates ADC measurement of the two channels. After the measurement is done, the power to the heater is turned on if needed. Then the timer again is initialised to make 4 more interrupts in order to refresh the 3 digits of the display. While doing this the PID values are calculated and the PWM for the next mains period is calculated. This way the most simple PIC16 can do the job even not having hardware multiplier. The brightness of the display is regulated also there using the period of the refresh timer interrupts.

[quote author="diogoc"]
Probably also because in this way one can reduce the time that the MOSFET is turned off from 1 ms to 500us (for voltage stabilization) + some us to the ADC acquire.
[/quote]
This can be simulated or calculated quite easily. Only 0.15% of the power is lost this way - remember that this is done around zero crossing of the mains. Very little power is thansferred to the heater in this period, because the mains voltage is extremely low there. If you power the heater with DC, and if you turn off the heater to measure, you will loose much more power.

[quote author="diogoc"]
yes to be precise the temperature sensor should be in the T12 terminals, but the temperature in the control box should not be very different and should be more accurate than without sensor because the ambient temperature can be quite different than 22°C
[/quote]
These 22C can be added to the parameters and can be adjustable. However, there is not a problem to add a temp sensor in the handle. If it is not in the handle but on the board, the temperature can be quite different indeed, after several hours of work. Remember that the handle is more or less heated from the iron heater and from the hand of a guy working with it. If you don't measure the temperature on the right place, it is useless anyway. As my measurements showed, after several hours (6 - 8) of work, the iron temperature stays within +/- 2-3 degrees of the setting. Remember that the iron is calibrated at 183 degrees in the same room. Even if the temperature was not exectly 22 degrees,it will be compensated by the calibration. When the temperature is set at, say, 350 degrees, the error will be small.

Here's an example:
- room temperature - 30 degrees.
- the controller is calibrated at 183 degrees, so in 30 degrees room temp the controller will regulate at 183 degrees.
- the thermocouple amplifier gain will be (183 + 30 - 22)/183 = 1.044 instead of 1, to compensate for room temp. error.
- when controller is set at 350 degrees, it will regulate to 183 + (350-183)/1.044 = 343 degrees. This is 7 degrees error, or around 2%.
- if the iron handle is heated to 2-3 degrees above the room temperature, the error becomes 3-4 degrees. Do you care so much for 3-4 degrees, or around 1% error? If you don't use self-zeroing opamps, the error from the opamp temperature drift can be more than this.
- if the temperature is measured in the controller's case, inner temperature can be several degrees up, compared to the room temperatrure. This will also cause cause an error comparable to these 3-4 degrees.
- there are thermocopule voltages on every solder joint on the PCB and on every connector. These can also add to the error.


[quote author="diogoc"]
I did not know the self-zeroing opamps but it seems be a good option for this case.[/quote]
These are perfect for measuring thermocouple voltages. There is absolutely no offset in the measurement.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on February 27, 2013, 07:11:35 pm
[quote author="arhi"][quote author="sparkybg"]
I have made a controller for T12 myself. Here's how it works:
[/quote]

nice project - perfect :D thanks for sharing.

one hint, open a separate thread, this one is already 40+ pages so it's super hard to follow. Open a new thread where you can explain & support it :) I'm sure lot of ppl have lot of questions and going trough 40 pages of a single topic is crazy hard to follow :)[/quote]

Thanks.

I will ask a moderator to move the posts in a new thread.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on February 27, 2013, 07:16:19 pm
[quote author="neslekkim"]I guess I can't find this controller on tindie? ;)[/quote]

No. :)

...but, you have the PCBs, you have the HEX and the source code for the controller and you can make one yourself instead. ;)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 27, 2013, 08:32:55 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]
I will ask a moderator to move the posts in a new thread.[/quote]

don't get me wrong, here, there .. all same to me, just new users will already be crazy after 40 pages :D better to show new project as new thread and then ppl can go straight in (especially as more then 6 ppl contacted me about T12 so a topic with T12 driver in a title will draw a lot of attention :D )
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on February 27, 2013, 08:39:53 pm
[quote author="arhi"]
don't get me wrong[/quote]

There's nothing to worry about. :)  You are right.
Title: calibration?
Post by: kenyee on February 27, 2013, 10:09:00 pm
Any way to calibrate it?

Wish there were an inexpensive calibration for the Hakko irons.  The FX888's calibration system costs as much as the iron :-P
Title: Re: calibration?
Post by: sparkybg on February 27, 2013, 10:25:28 pm
[quote author="kenyee"]Any way to calibrate it?

Wish there were an inexpensive calibration for the Hakko irons.  The FX888's calibration system costs as much as the iron :-P[/quote]

1. get 63/37 solder
2. put some on the tip
3. set temperature to 182 degrees
4. calibrate it so the solder is solid at that temperature
5. set temperature to 184 degrees
6. calibrate it so the solder is melted at this temperature
7. repeat steps 3 to 6 until you get solid solder on 182 degrees and melted solder on 184 degrees.

It is a bit tricky to set it solid on 182 degrees and melted on 184 degrees, but I can calibrate it this way in around 10 minutes. Calibration is done with the tip that is used most frequently. There will be difference in 2-5 degrees between different tips.

If it is too tricky for you, you can use 180 and 186 degrees instead, but once you get used to it, it is easy.

After this, if you are using lead free solder, you must clean the tip from 63/37 solder. This is easy also - put some lead free solder on tip, chen remove it, then put some more, then remove it again, and so on. If you repeat this 3-4 times, no lead from 63/37 solder will remain on tip.

The cost of all this is almost zero.

The reason to use 63/37 non lead free solder is because it is eutectic alloy - it melts and solidifies at exactly 183 degrees. Lead-free solder is not eutectic alloy and progressively softens between two temperatures, so it cannot be used for correct calibration.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on February 27, 2013, 11:42:39 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"][quote author="neslekkim"]I guess I can't find this controller on tindie? ;)[/quote]

No. :)

...but, you have the PCBs, you have the HEX and the source code for the controller and you can make one yourself instead. ;)[/quote]

True,  but if I use Seeed, I will have 10 pcb's of each one, maybe a bit overkill..
Is it made for some specific enclosure?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on February 28, 2013, 12:03:46 am
[quote author="neslekkim"]
Is it made for some specific enclosure?[/quote]

Yes. I've got a BlackJack Solderwerks BK3000LF station, and I made the PCBs to fit in it. I made a different back plate with hole for the handle sensor 6p6c jack.
Here's how it looks:
(http://http://www.circuitspecialists.eu/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/300x300/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/b/k/bk-3000lf.jpg)

There is nothing left from original controller in it. Only the power transformer.

The sensor is made to fit in the original stand also (shown on the picture). I only had to drill 4 more holes on it (2 for PCB mount and 2 for IR transmitter and receiver).
Title: thanks sparkybg
Post by: kenyee on February 28, 2013, 03:06:12 pm
I've never heard of that calibration technique.  Thanks :-)
Now I have to get some 63/37 solder but that's cheaper than the calibration device :-)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 01, 2013, 07:35:21 am
I have made some measurements. Is is some kind of non-standart thermocouple in there. It is between 18 and 19 uV per degree celsius. This is non-standart value and I don't know what type of thermocouple can this be.

...but I am using a chinese clone of T12 tips. I don't know how the original ones perform. I will buy one original and measure it also. But it's price is 6-7 times up, compared to chinese.

P.S.: Just measured my other soldering iron's thermocouple (HAKKO 907 or something like this). 52.7uV per degree celsius. This is more like an iron-constantan type J thermocouple.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on March 01, 2013, 10:13:11 am
19 uV/ºc is a D type thermocouple, but I think it is expensive so Hakko would not use such type of thermocouple.
 From the standard types of thermocouples the N type is the closest, but even so the error is too large.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 01, 2013, 11:05:40 am
[quote author="diogoc"]19 uV/ºc is a D type thermocouple, but I think it is expensive so Hakko would not use such type of thermocouple.
 From the standard types of thermocouples the N type is the closest, but even so the error is too large.[/quote]

I don't think is an expensive type of thermocouple. Most likely, it is a standart cheap thermocouple, but something in the construction of the tip changes it's output - for example the contact between heater and it's terminals which again is more or less a thermocouple.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: diogoc on March 06, 2013, 09:47:12 am
I took a look at your PID code but it is a little confusing.
What is your source for that PID algorithm?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: diogoc on March 06, 2013, 11:06:52 pm
Another question..
I realized that the heater is on or off during the whole mains period. That is, you do not use a PWM with a fixed period and varying on and off times, right?
If I use a common PWM the interval between each PID calculation should be at least greater than one PWM period?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 11, 2013, 11:19:03 am
[quote author="diogoc"]I took a look at your PID code but it is a little confusing.
What is your source for that PID algorithm?[/quote]

The source is my brain. :)

It works this way:
1. At a given moment of time we have current temperature (TempAVG), current PWM percentage, and current rate of change of the temperature for this PWM (TSlope).
2. From what we have, the code tries to predict what would be the temperature after a certain amount of time (TempAVG + TSlope), and using PI algorithm on that predicted temperature changes the PWM in order to reach the desired temperature.

Both "TempAVG" and "TSlope" are averages of past data in order to eliminate the noise in temperature measurements.

By definition, the "P" part of the PID algorithm works on the current status, the "I" part works on the past, and the "D" part works on future. So, my algorithm is indeed a PID algorithm, just in a bit more strange form. Someone with a better mathematical skills can even do a formulas on this. I just found out that it works faster and with less overshoot this way.

Moreover, many algorithms doesn't show the real temperature on the display, and the user have a feeling that the temperature is stable and without over/undershoots. I personally don't like this. My code shows the real measured temperature (averaged over the last 8-16 measurements), and you can see all the overshoots, undershoots, reaction of the code and so on. This way everyone can see what actually happens at the moment, not what the code developer wants to happen.

[quote author="diogoc"]Another question..
I realized that the heater is on or off during the whole mains period. That is, you do not use a PWM with a fixed period and varying on and off times, right?
If I use a common PWM the interval between each PID calculation should be at least greater than one PWM period?[/quote]

Yes. I am using a sort of "fixed on time, variable off time" algorithm. It is simple and works great.

You have a counter (PWMCNT), and on every mains period a PWM is added to this counter. If the counter becomes more than one, you switch the heater on and subtract one from the counter.

For example, consider PWM duty of 63% (0.63). At the beginning the counter is initialized to 0. Here is what happens:
1. Counter = counter + PWM duty. (0 + 0.63 = 0.63), the heater is switched off.
2. Counter = counter + PWM duty. (0.63 + 0.63 = 1.26), the heater is switched on, and one is subtraced from counter, so the conter is 0.26
3. 0.26 + 0.63 = 0.89 -> heater off
4. 0.89 + 0.63 = 1.52 -> heater on, counter = 0.52
5. 0.52 + 0.63 = 1.15 -> heater on, counter = 0.15
6. 0.15 + 0.63 = 0.78 -> heater off
7. 0.78 + 0.63 = 1.41 -> heater on, counter = 0.41
8. 0.41 + 0.63 = 1.04 -> heater on, counter = 0.04
9. 0.04 + 0.63 = 0.67 -> heater off
10. 0.67 + 0.63 = 1.30 -> heater on, counter = 0.30
11. 0.30 + 0.63 = 0.93 -> heater off
12. 0.93 + 0.63 = 1.56 -> heater on, counter = 0.56
13. 0.56 + 0.63 = 1.19 -> heater on, counter = 0.19
14. 0.19 + 0.63 = 0.82 -> heater off
15. 0.82 + 0.63 = 1.45 -> heater on, counter = 0.45

and so on.

Why I am doing it on mains period?  Because the temperature measurements are made on exact mains voltage every time, this way you eliminate the noise from the mains voltage in the measurements. And, you don't have to filter the transformer voltage with large capacitance - the electronics becomes much more compact this way, and cheaper too. The filter capacitors for 70W iron would be pretty big if you want to use real DC. And, the transformer is not loaded with high frequency, so it is happier (colder, quieter) this way. :)

Of course, you can use classic PWM, but if you continue to use rectified and unfiltered voltage and don't do the switching on  the zero cross of every mains period (note - full period, not half period), the load on the transformer would not be symmetric for positive and negative part of the period, and the transformers don't like this - they will be more noisy (some transformers can be heard even with ideal symmetric loads) and will become hotter.

I hope these answers clears the things a bit. If you have more questions, I will be glad to answer them also.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 30, 2013, 12:50:58 am
A guy asked for a link to the video, so here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVrMjr0eCC4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVrMjr0eCC4)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Tioleco on March 31, 2013, 10:25:30 pm
This circuit works with Hakko FM-2027 / 2028 iron?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: diogoc on April 01, 2013, 10:22:08 am
I finally received my T12 tip. Now I can start to build the controller.
I'm trying to read the temperature of the tip (ambient temperature, without turn on the heating) but I get a lot of noise and the temperature value is not stable.
I'm acquire 10 samples each time to calculate the average but did not help much.
If I increase the capacitors in the input and output of the amplifier it stabilize, but in that way it is necessary a lot of time for the capacitors discharge between turning off the heater and start reading the temperature
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 01, 2013, 10:43:50 am
[quote author="diogoc"]I finally received my T12 tip. Now I can start to build the controller.
I'm trying to read the temperature of the tip (ambient temperature, without turn on the heating) but I get a lot of noise and the temperature value is not stable.
I'm acquire 10 samples each time to calculate the average but did not help much.
If I increase the capacitors in the input and output of the amplifier it stabilize, but in that way it is necessary a lot of time for the capacitors discharge between turning off the heater and start reading the temperature[/quote]

Well, you have schematics, you have working firmware, you have PCBs ready - you just have to build it. I have done it for you a long time ago. :) And it works for sure. I am averaging last 8 or 16 samples form the ADC.

..and, as i said before, this is one of the reasons my station uses unfiltered rectified voltage from mains transformer - this way you eliminate the noise from 50 or 60Hz mains voltage, which injects itself everywhere, because it measures temperature on the mains zero cross point. You have HUGE amplification for this thermocouple amplifier, and you cannot make it slow, because you have to get the temperature fast in order not to spare too much time with power shut off.

However, one of the alternatives is to use higher voltage and maximum PWM duty less than 100%. For example, if you use 28.7 volts and maximum duty 70%, you will have the same 70W out of the iron, but you will be able to use 30% of the time for measurements.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 01, 2013, 10:49:24 am
[quote author="Tioleco"]This circuit works with Hakko FM-2027 / 2028 iron?[/quote]

Yes, it works. FM-2027 and FM-2028 are using T12/T15 tips, and this controller is made exactly for these tips. The only thing you should consider is how to connect the iron cable leads to the station. I am using cheap chinese plugs for this purpose. I had nowhere to find fair priced original hakko plug/socket.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 01, 2013, 10:53:42 am
[quote author="diogoc"]
I'm trying to read the temperature of the tip (ambient temperature, without turn on the heating) but I get a lot of noise and the temperature value is not stable.
[/quote]

Every thermocoule in the world will give you 0(zero!) voltage at ambient temperature. It will start building voltage on it after you heat it above the ambient temperature or cool it down below ambient temperature. Thermocouple measures the temperature difference, not the temperature itself.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: diogoc on April 01, 2013, 01:21:08 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]
Every thermocoule in the world will give you 0(zero!) voltage at ambient temperature. It will start building voltage on it after you heat it above the ambient temperature or cool it down below ambient temperature. Thermocouple measures the temperature difference, not the temperature itself.[/quote]

OMG it is true. I do not know what I was thinking...

I'm trying to do my own soldering controller before give up and build your controller :)
my idea would be:
- use a laptop ac adapter for the power supply to reduce the the weight and dimension
- use a AD8495 for the thermocouple amplifier. It is for K thermocouples but if I linearize it in software it could work (maybe a stupid ideia)
- use a pic18f2550
- use a 3310 lcd
- use a rotary encoder to change the temperature

this probably is not the best topic to expose my questions but you are the only one here who has worked with T12 tips
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 01, 2013, 02:09:20 pm
[quote author="diogoc"][quote author="sparkybg"]
Every thermocoule in the world will give you 0(zero!) voltage at ambient temperature. It will start building voltage on it after you heat it above the ambient temperature or cool it down below ambient temperature. Thermocouple measures the temperature difference, not the temperature itself.[/quote]

OMG it is true. I do not know what I was thinking...

I'm trying to do my own soldering controller before give up and build your controller :)
my idea would be:
- use a laptop ac adapter for the power supply to reduce the the weight and dimension
- use a AD8495 for the thermocouple amplifier. It is for K thermocouples but if I linearize it in software it could work (maybe a stupid ideia)
- use a pic18f2550
- use a 3310 lcd
- use a rotary encoder to change the temperature

this probably is not the best topic to expose my questions but you are the only one here who has worked with T12 tips[/quote]

You can do this of course. But:
- Most laptop supplies are around 19 volts. You will have 35-40 watts instead of 70
- I am not sure that AD8495 has enough speed for this exact purpose unless you use more voltage, and less maximum PWM duty. As I see it - you will have to give the amplifier enough time to stabilise, before you make ADC conversion. I think you will need around 3-4 milliseconds for this. So in order to get maximum power from the iron you will have to use bigger voltage than 24 volts.
- For the K thermocouple - you will have to compensate/calibrate in software. Most PIC18-s have a DAC reference for the ADC, so that won't be a problem. You can adjust the ADC reference so that the ADC reads 1000 for 500 degrees celsius on the iron. Then it is very easy for the software to do what it have to do without performing additional multiplication and divison. As far as I remember, you have 1.024V internal reference, which can be boosted to 2.048 and 4.096 volts. Than, you can put this as a reference to internal DAC, and put the DAC output as a reference to the ADC. It is pretty straightforward and flexible approach. It needed very little calibration on my controller - the trimmers for the gain is nearly at 50%.
- From my work on this, I can tell that it is better to have more data, than average it, and than use this averaged temperature as the input to your PID implementation. It works more stable this way. An alternative approach is to put a filter on the amplifier and use it for averaging, but this way you have all the noise from the amplifier and tha ADC in the data. When you average in software - it is pure mathematics - you average signal + noise, and this brings the noise to the lower level and makes the input data to the PID quieter so it works more stable.

Keep us in touch with your design. I will be glad to help with whatever i can. There is nothing too hard to do in this design. In fact, the hardest thing for me was optimizing the PID algorithm to work fast, stable, and without excessive over/undershoot. Anyway, you will see it yourself. It is time consuming, but it is fun to do. :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 09, 2013, 06:24:22 pm
Another video. Here is how it performs when soldering a massive parts. In the video another solid copper T12 tip is heated by a smaller T12 tip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjwervV2w7c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjwervV2w7c)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 13, 2013, 03:40:37 am
And, here's a video of JBC C245 (left) compared to chinese HAKKO T12.

I had to change the DAC reference voltage from 4.096 to 2.048 volts and to optimize the PID alorithm a bit. No hardware changes at all, except removing the two filter capacitors on thermocouple amplifier. Because the heater and the TC in C245 tips share a common wire, the TC measurement shoud be done when the power to the tip is off to avoid erratic readings because of the voltage drops on cable an connections when heater current flows. The amplifier had to be fast enough, just like the amplifier for T12 tips.

Because of the PID optimisation, now even T12 tips are performing better, with less overshoot and faster reaction on big soldering joints.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8EptN6d ... e=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8EptN6dwos&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: diogoc on April 15, 2013, 04:14:31 pm
I have now the temperature value almost stabilized.
I reduced a lot the capacitors that I had in the amplifier and so I have a relatively fast response signal to the ADC.
My PWM period is 200ms and I turn off the heating 2ms to acquire temperature so the maximum PWM is 99% which to me does not matter.
To compensate for the reduction of the capacitors and achieve a stable temperature value, I make the average of the last 16 values ​​of temperature. I can increase the number of averaged values but I am afraid this may make the PID slower.

One thing I noticed is that as the tip temperature is different from the temperature where sensor is so I can not calibrate the temperature value for all temperatures. I calibrated to 350 ºC and the other temperatures do not match exactly, but nothing too serious.

At the moment I lack mostly the adjustment of PID parameters. I made a program in C# that receives all parameters of the controller by RS232 and displays them graphically allowing me to more easily make the adjustment of these parameters.

You can give me any tips on the best strategy to adjust the PID?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 15, 2013, 07:39:03 pm
You may completely remove the capacitors as in my schematic. Averaging last 16 temperatures is enough for filtering out the noise, but considering 200ms period of the PWM, this may be too slow. You are averaging the temperatures from last 3 seconds, and this time is huge if you use T12 tips.

My PID runs at 50hz. And I am averaging last 8 or 16ADC results, but this results in averaging last 1/6 or last 1/3 second, compared to yous 3 seconds. Find a way to make measurements at least 20 times a second. Than you will have enough data to do filtering in a decent period of time.

Most soldering controllers run at 5-10 Hz, and this is more than enough when you have separate thermocouple, because you can read it's value at any given time and you can do all the filtering in the analog hardware. But when you have a series thermocouple, or a thermocouple that shares a connection with the heater, you have to do measurements as fast as possible, this excludes almost all possibilities for any analog filtering, and obligates you to make more measurements in order to be able to make filtering in software. Also this obligates you to use amplifiers fast enough in order be able to do the measurements faster. Consider making your period 20ms, and make the measurements in 1-2 milliseconds. This will give you 50 ADC values per second, and you can than average last 16 results. Also, before you say to the ADC to start measurement, you must give enough time for the amplifier to stabilise. For example, if you have 20ms period, and you are measuring in the last 2ms of it, turn the heater off at 18-th millicecond, than give the amplifier 1.5 milliseconds to stabilise, than make the ADC measurement, and than you can turn the heater on immediately. This will give you 90% maximum duty which you can easily compensate with slightly higher voltage, say 25 or 26 volts.

That's why you are reading different temperatures whan the heater is on and off - you are not giving it enough time, so the power to the heater devastates yous ADC results.

Also consider that when you are using a series thermocouple, there can be a local temperature gradients in the heater leads and thermocouple itself, because the power to the heater flows through the thermocouple itself. From my experience I can say that 1 of around 10 T12 tips behaves this way. So you must make your PID stable enough in order to be able to stabilise, despite the tip differences.

Also, instead of averaging you can use another type of digital filtering  that behaves much like an RC filter. For example, if you have a variable for averaging, called ADCAvg, and you read the ADC into variable called ADCVal, than for every new ADC value you can do ADCAvg=ADCAvg-(ADCAvg>>3)+ADCVal. This will result in averaged ADC value in the ADCAvg, multiplied by 8 in our case. It behaves differently than averaging, and it uses only one variable for averaging instead of a buffer with last 8-16 results.

Also, I can say that in my last software version, the temperature prediction algorithm works extremely well. When tuned properly, it completely removes any overshoot from the temperature, and still one can use a PI values that gives faster response. Currently, from the above averaged temperatures, I make a buffer with last 8 results, and I am calculating current temperature slope as the difference between the current temperature result, and the result that happened 8 measurements ago. Than I am filtering this calculated slope a second time, and then I multiply it with a gain constant that is more or less equivalent to the D coefficient in a PID, than I am adding it to the current temperature, and I am running a PI algorithm on this predicted temperature. Also, after this, I restrict the maximum possible duty at the moment if the temperature is above the desired temperature, in my case 5 percent for any degree. For example if the heater is at 301 degrees and the desired temperature is 300 degrees, I restrict duty to maximum of 95%, if the heater is at 310 degrees, the duty is restricted to 50%, and if 320 degrees, the heater is definitely off. But because I am looking at the predicted temperature, this happens not after, but before the iron overheats. Then the temperature slope gain is set correctly, the software knows exactly when to turn the power off and there is not any overshoots in the temperature.

Look at the last video I gave link to. On the left is the latest software on JBC C245 tip, and on the right it is the previous version of the software on a T12 tip. Look how the software shuts down the power (dot on the display) to the heater before it is overheated, and there isn't any overshoot - it just stops at 350 degrees and stays there. T12 behaves the same way with new software.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: diogoc on April 16, 2013, 02:07:58 pm
Hum I will try run the PID every 20ms or at least 40ms, I have to see if the PID calculations and other functions can complete in this period. Do you think it is preferable to run the pwn in 19 or 39 ms + 1 ms to read the temperature? In that way I read the temperatue always in multiples of 50Hz so the noise is reduced.

[quote author="sparkybg"]That's why you are reading different temperatures whan the heater is on and off - you are not giving it enough time, so the power to the heater devastates yous ADC results.[/quote]

I turn off the heater, wait 1.8ms, make the ADC measurement 4 times (pre-average), turn on the heater, and then I make the 16 last values average and run PID. I confirmed with the oscilloscope that after 1.8ms the voltage in the amplifier output has stabilized.

[quote author="sparkybg"]Also, instead of averaging you can use another type of digital filtering  that behaves much like an RC filter. For example, if you have a variable for averaging, called ADCAvg, and you read the ADC into variable called ADCVal, than for every new ADC value you can do ADCAvg=ADCAvg-(ADCAvg>>3)+ADCVal. This will result in averaged ADC value in the ADCAvg, multiplied by 8 in our case. It behaves differently than averaging, and it uses only one variable for averaging instead of a buffer with last 8-16 results.[/quote]

Your formula for the digital filter may have other advantages over the simple average but for the mathematical simulation that I did (a variation of temperature from 0 to 300) your formula takes much longer than 16 cycles for the value of the temperature reaches 300 ºC.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 16, 2013, 03:03:11 pm
[quote author="diogoc"]Hum I will try run the PID every 20ms or at least 40ms, I have to see if the PID calculations and other functions can complete in this period. Do you think it is preferable to run the pwn in 19 or 39 ms + 1 ms to read the temperature? In that way I read the temperatue always in multiples of 50Hz so the noise is reduced.
[/quote]
The noise from mains is only reduced if you make measurements synchronously to the mains voltage. It does not matter otherwise.
If you are using floating point calculations - this will be slow. If you are using a microcontroller without hardware multiplication it will also be slow, but I think it will be achievable on 8Mhz device. Put only your ADC measurements and filtering in an interrupt routine. Put all other things in a loop. This way you will not have to worry about the speed of other routines. Than you will be able to run your PID and other functions on a 200ms period, but make measurements and filtering at 20ms intervals. The critical part here are measurements and filtering. The PID itself does not need to run so frequently.

[quote author="diogoc"]
I turn off the heater, wait 1.8ms, make the ADC measurement 4 times (pre-average), turn on the heater, and then I make the 16 last values average and run PID. I confirmed with the oscilloscope that after 1.8ms the voltage in the amplifier output has stabilized.
[/quote]
Measuring the voltage 4 times just gives you oversampling, and does not give you a real 4 measurements. With 10 bit ADC you don't really need overasmpling. Yes, this will help to suppress noise form the ADC, but nothing more. You must make more real measurements and then filter the data you've collected.

[quote author="diogoc"]
Your formula for the digital filter may have other advantages over the simple average but for the mathematical simulation that I did (a variation of temperature from 0 to 300) your formula takes much longer than 16 cycles for the value of the temperature reaches 300 ºC.[/quote]
This filter behaves exactly like your amplifier when you put capacitances on it. It behaves like an RC filter. If this is slow to you, you can try ADCAvg=ADCAvg-(ADCAvg>>2) +ADCVal. The frequency response of this filter depends of the shifting. This filter has infinite impulse response. The averaging has finite impulse response. It is up to you to decide what works best in your case. From the simulations you can see how the filter works, but you will not be able to "feel" how it works in real life, with real data. Look at the last movie I've uploaded in YouTube. This is done filtering data this way. I am not using averaging because it works better this way, although not drastically better.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Tioleco on April 19, 2013, 02:25:10 am
Can believe that this iron is an legitimate Hakko?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Original-Ha ... 19d83ee1e5 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Original-Hakko-951-FM-2028-Soldering-Iron-SMD-Soldering-Station-70W-24V-/111002182117?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d83ee1e5)

What would be the equivalent of this class of iron , Metcal, JBC , Weller WMRP?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 19, 2013, 02:52:35 am
This for sure is chinese copy, because:
1. This is a chinese seller.
2. The price is for chinese copy. The original costs several timer more.

One equivalent is JBC C245. In fact, I think it is better. It is even more compact than T12, and it has 130W peak power. It heats up 2 times faster.

Both Metcal and Weller have comparable irons. But, the tip price is x10, compared to chinese T12 clone.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on April 19, 2013, 03:23:36 pm
Buy an JBC, I got the CD-2BB, fantastic stuff, if I had more money I would probably have bought the DD instead.
But, compared to the hakko 951 handle, the tips actually sits good in the jbc handle (I got T245), and it is very nice to use, and small.
I have an 951 clone, and the handle is very bad, the blue and yellow part will not hold together, and the tips come loose every so often, so i get error on the display.
It is also a bit more difficult to change 951 tips, you need to grab it with your fingers (with an rubbermat or something), but the JBC have an shape, that makes it easy to drag it out with an attachment on the station.
The prices of the C245 cartdrigdes are expensive, but people say they last forever, so..  ihope they do..
And, I don't think there are many clones of jbc ?, Hakko is wildly clones, you newer know what you get.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 19, 2013, 05:24:52 pm
If you don't like tha Hakko 951 handle (I don't like it too), get Hakko FX-9051 handle. It is again chinese copy, but much better:
[attachment=0]

By the way here is what is inside a chinese FX-951 clone:
http://leisto.blogspot.com/2012/12/fx-9 ... emble.html (http://leisto.blogspot.com/2012/12/fx-951-soldering-station-disassemble.html)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on April 19, 2013, 05:34:46 pm
And here what's inside mine:
https://plus.google.com/107561384765867 ... WnQzZyvj2t (https://plus.google.com/107561384765867748075/posts/YWnQzZyvj2t)

That handle looked ok, maybe I should try that one also, atleast to add to the collection:
https://plus.google.com/107561384765867 ... 3aSSeRypFk (https://plus.google.com/107561384765867748075/posts/X3aSSeRypFk)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 19, 2013, 06:56:05 pm
This is a total crap!

Make my design and you won't have any problems using T12 tips. You will be able to use the transformer from the chinese fake Hakko, so it will be a really cheap solution.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: highpow3rpc on April 25, 2013, 02:55:58 pm
Hi what is the max temp of this station ?

Highpow3rpc
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 25, 2013, 03:07:27 pm
It can measure upto 500 degrees celsius. It cam regulate from 150 upto 450 degrees celsius. Although it can be made to measure and regulate higher temperatures, there is no need for more in a soldering controller.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: highpow3rpc on April 27, 2013, 02:06:55 pm
Is it ESD safe ?

And what alternatives can I use for the sr580's ?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 27, 2013, 03:08:47 pm
[quote author="highpow3rpc"]Is it ESD safe ?

And what alternatives can I use for the sr580's ?[/quote]

It is up to you if it will be ESD safe or not. If you connect the outer body of the soldering iron to earth/ground, it will be ESD safe. Most soldering irons, including T12 tips and handle, have separate wire for this.

SR580 is just a 5A 80V schottky rectifier. Any 60-80V fast or schottky rectifier will do the job. Schottky is a better choice because the forward voltage drop is smaller.

For example, there is SB580 availavle in Farnell, which is more or less the same as SR580.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: highpow3rpc on April 27, 2013, 04:12:18 pm
I will have a look at what I can find its more about availability alot of the components for projects I look at making aren't very readily available and in most cases I am not sure how to determine a component which can be used in place,

With this design does the sensor board (sleep stand) need to be used or will the circuit function without it say if it had a bridge across a pin to pull it high or low ?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 27, 2013, 05:14:29 pm
All the components can be bought from Farnell, Mouser, Digikey etc.

...and, yes, the controller can work without sensor. It automatically determines if there is or there is not sensor attached. It also has an option in the menu for the sensor - on, off or auto(default).

The sensor just sends 0 or 5V to the controller to indicate if iron is in the stand. Same can be done with a simple SPDT switch.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: highpow3rpc on April 28, 2013, 05:04:12 am
[quote author="sparkybg"]All the components can be bought from Farnell, Mouser, Digikey etc.

...and, yes, the controller can work without sensor. It automatically determines if there is or there is not sensor attached. It also has an option in the menu for the sensor - on, off or auto(default).

The sensor just sends 0 or 5V to the controller to indicate if iron is in the stand. Same can be done with a simple SPDT switch.[/quote]


Does the sleep stand set the iron to go to a idle temp if so what temperature

By my understanding if I had a SPDT switch sleep pin tied to ground with a 4.7k resistor and then had the switch pulling it high to 5v, does there need to be anything else done to the controller eg. having other pins that would normally be designated to the sensor tied in any way ?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 28, 2013, 10:50:07 am
The temperature in the stand, the sleep temperature and the time before the controller goes to sleep are all options in the menu, so you can set them to whatever you want.

The controller just wants 0V when iron is in the handle and 5V when iron is outside the handle. How you will achieve this is entirely up to you.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: highpow3rpc on April 28, 2013, 01:04:02 pm
Thanks heaps sparkybg,

I am looking at making the boards myself but curious as to where you got your boards done or did you do etch them yourself.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 28, 2013, 06:39:41 pm
I am using local bulgarian company for my two layer PCBs and iteadstudio for 4 layer PCBs. The controller PCB has many vias and it will be a bit hard to fabricate at home. Etching is not a problem, but solder mask and hole metalisation definitely are something not so easy to make at home.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: highpow3rpc on April 29, 2013, 07:27:28 am
Ok I might look at designing my own board including the power supply and control board in one, the vias aren't a problem as I can put a pin through and pads on both sides.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on June 12, 2013, 03:25:54 pm
Coming soon: V2:
- USB link for firmware updates, live data preview, instrument profile programming etc.
- can measure any thermocouple with more than 4mV @ 500 degrees celsius
- can measure resistive sensors - 3uA - 12.25mA measuring current - this means any resistance between 0.5ohm and around 5 kiloohm can be measured with around 1% error. Heater resistance can also be measured.
- variable hardware amplifier gain form 4 to 1024.
- variable 10 bit hardware offset
- internal ambient temperature sensor
- can run on 10-30V DC or AC(45-65Hz). Safe for automotive use - can withstand upto 60-70V voltage peaks.
- maximum power limitation - measures input voltahe and heater resistance - can control low power iron safely.
- instrument identification - can use resistor divider or 1-wire Flash to identify plugged instrument.
- 64k onboard Flash for storing instrument profiles
...
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: electrowolf on June 14, 2013, 09:02:10 pm
Hello spakybg,

great project you have here!

You mentioned that you had a later version of the firmware than the one on the first page, could you possibly post the updated version that also had support for the JCB tips?  I'm just looking for the improved PID regulation, as I'm setting out to modify a fake Hakko 951, want it to be better than the original, and possibly even help people like neslekkim who got a raw deal when ordering what they tought to be a real original. I must say, they're not all bad, works pretty good considering.... If you can live with having to calibrate it yourself... duh..!

Internally they are built quite similarly to your controller, with some shortcuts and differences like not being synced to the AC period, but they regulate quite OK, albeit only on 50% power. My version, and neslekkims at least, are actually using old schools DIP chips, so I'm going for something like a drop in replacement with a, but probably on a small board for some pin rearrangement with an RS232 or USB connection and a sync input.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on June 14, 2013, 09:14:18 pm
For JBC C245 you have to remove the filter capacitors of second channel (the channel for external TC), and set ADC reference to 2.048 volts instead of 4.096. Of course the PID coefficients should be different, and here they are:

in PID.h:
Code: [Select]
#define PID2_TIME 1
#define PID2_DGAIN 11
#define PID2_KP 0.4
#define PID2_KI 0.01
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: electrowolf on June 22, 2013, 07:35:40 pm
So the only difference was the PID coefficients, excellent! You mentioned that this also made the T12 tips regulate faster, but I suppose that that would still be with the same old 4.096 V reference?

I'm trying to figure out how your firmware works, and you have been quite good at documenting the variables and flow for the interrupt part, but the meaning of several of the main variables and some of the functionality, especially the button trickery, escapes me, could you maybe document them just as thoroughly, or perhaps give me some hints on what they do?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on June 22, 2013, 08:53:40 pm
I am on vacation now. I will do my best to explain next week.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: kodi on July 06, 2013, 12:44:08 pm
I'm considering new soldering station for my shop. After reading this thread I'm considering three options:
1) Do what OP did: purchase BK3000LF, build a controller, get FX-9051 handle
2) build a custom controller and get a JBC handle + tips
3) purchase JBC CD-2BC (I can get a set with 4 tips for around €340)

Pricing for those options:
1) BK3000LF €65, FX-9051 handle €40, controller - unknown, T12 cartridge set - €40 = €145 + price of the controller. From what I was checking - OSHPark priced the boards at about €65 for a set of three, so that's €210 + parts
2) BK3000LF + boards €130, parts unknown, JBC handle + 5 cartridges €160, total €290 + cost of the controller parts
3 )JBC CD-2BC €290 with handle and two tips, additional 3 tips €65

So practicality says that the only options left are 1) and 3). Can anyone tell me how does the T12 with this controller compare to CD-2BC (or BB in that matter)?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 06, 2013, 02:59:47 pm
Jbc is a better choice than bk3000lf, but C245 tips are expensive.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: kodi on July 06, 2013, 09:20:56 pm
welcome back from holidays ;)
@sparkybg: could you tell me if there is any difference in soldering performance between using your controller with T12 tips and original JBC with C245? I saw in your video that JBC heats up much faster, so you can actually set the resting temp to ambient and the tip will heat itself up to the working temperature while positioning the tip for soldering, but on the other hand T12 can have resting temp at around 150 degrees and it will heat up to the working temp in similar time. And as you mentioned - the tips are much cheaper (around €4 vs €20-30 for JBC).
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 06, 2013, 09:51:51 pm
C245 is clearly better. And the quality is much better.

However, everything I can do with C245, I can do with T12 also.

I am using immediate rest temperature of 300 degrees (30 seconda) and deep resting temperature of 200 degrees. T12 heats up in seconds (5-6 maybe) form 200 to 350.

C 245 can be set on 200 immediate and 150 deep, and you will not be able tell the difference if it was on constantly or resting in handle at 150 degrees. It heats up in 1-2 seconds to 350.

But unfortunately I have only 3 C245 tips vs. more than 50 T12 tips. The price of the C245 is around 8-10 times higher than chinese T12.

I've decided to buy 3 C245 tips I am using most of the time, and use T12 for everything else.

C245 is a damn good soldering tip. The handle also is good.

It is like a really good car vs chinese copy of really good car. :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mihnen on July 09, 2013, 03:10:24 am
Does anyone know what the pinout for the FM-2027 is? I would like to try this out and ordered a handle from hakko but I have no idea what connections are what and there are 8 pins on this thing. Found the two I think are the heater because it measure around 9 ohms between them but where would I read the thermocouple from. I assume some of the other pins are for detecting removal of the tip. I read this whole thread but nobody mentions the pinout for this thing. Also if anybody is looking for a connector for the FM-2027 the Digikey part number 361-1267-ND is the matching female connector.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 09, 2013, 10:27:23 am
[quote author="mihnen"]Does anyone know what the pinout for the FM-2027 is? I would like to try this out and ordered a handle from hakko but I have no idea what connections are what and there are 8 pins on this thing. Found the two I think are the heater because it measure around 9 ohms between them but where would I read the thermocouple from. I assume some of the other pins are for detecting removal of the tip. I read this whole thread but nobody mentions the pinout for this thing. Also if anybody is looking for a connector for the FM-2027 the Digikey part number 361-1267-ND is the matching female connector.[/quote]

The thermocouple is in series with the heater. The power to the heater is delivered there, end while the heater is off, the thermocouple voltage is measured on the same 2 pins.

There's a third pin, connected to the T12 outer body. This is usually grounded for ESD Safety. Some people leave this pin unvonnected, some connect it to ground using 1-10 megaohms resistor, some connect it directly to ground.

But, I think you will not be able to get a female socket for this plug anyway (it is not a standart DIN plug), so you will have to replace it with something else available at your place. Only 3 pins are needed for T12 tips - ground, + and -. You can measure which one is + using a DMM and a cigarette lighter - when the tip is heated with cigarette lighter,it will start to build a small voltage on the heater pins. The polarity of this voltage is the polarity of the pins.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mihnen on July 10, 2013, 01:23:42 am
Thanks for the response, I guess I should have read the original post more closely as it does mention that the thermocouple is in series with the heater. After some testing last night I came to the same conclusion. My question is how are you supposed to measure it when it is setup this way. I am running a AD8495 for reading the thermocouple voltage. If i put a couple of diodes to ground with isolating series resistors I can limit the voltage input to it when the power is applied but it still doesn't read properly unless I completely disconnect the ac lines from it. Should the AD8495 be run without a ground reference, I currently have a 1M to ground on the inverting pin.

The connector from digikey that I mentioned above is an exact match for the hakko plug, I have it already and can confirm this without a doubt.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 10, 2013, 10:07:55 am
You must turn power off, wait for the amplifier to settle down (millisecond or two will be enough I think), and then make the measurement.

AD8495 is made for J and K type thermocouples. T12/T15 are not using J or K type thermocouple. How will you compensate for this?

You must put a resistor (10k for example) and then couple of diodes to ground (1n4148 is OK for this), one with cathode to ground, and one with anode to ground, on each amplifier input. This is to avoid overloading of the amplifier because of heater inductance. When you cut the power to the iron, this inductance creates a negative voltage peak on the terminals. Typical inductance of T12/T15 chinese tip is around 150uH, if my LC meter got it right.

I would not use AD8495 for this. It is not made for this. It is a bit slow, and it is made for type K or type J thermocouples. It will be very hard to compensate for this. T12/T15 thermocouple voltage is somewhere around half the voltage of type K or type J thermocouple.

Take a look at the schematics. Use the same amplifier I've used, and compensate for 22-25 degrees room temperature. This is more then enough, and the amplifier is fast enough to be able to settle down for half millisecond.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mihnen on July 11, 2013, 07:22:54 pm
Makes sense, turns out my problem was that the heater was inductive and I didn't have a snubber on it. I was using the AD8495 only because I made a controller for an old solomon iron I had and was trying to adapt that controller to work with these T12 tips however I guess that isn't going to work and I'll just design a new analog frontend for the thermocouple. Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 11, 2013, 07:42:21 pm
[quote author="mihnen"]Makes sense, turns out my problem was that the heater was inductive and I didn't have a snubber on it. I was using the AD8495 only because I made a controller for an old solomon iron I had and was trying to adapt that controller to work with these T12 tips however I guess that isn't going to work and I'll just design a new analog frontend for the thermocouple. Thanks for your help.[/quote]

It will be VERY hard to make a snubber working well on all tips. There's internal inductance, capacitance and so on, and these are not so equal on all the tips.

By the way, I have just tested an original HAKKO T15 (which is T12 for Europe) tip. Electrically there is not any difference between original and chinese clones. There is a little difference in build quality but nothing to justify the 5-7 times higher price.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: diogoc on July 11, 2013, 08:10:24 pm
My project uses the AD8495 and works with T12 tips. Is not yet finished because I had to put on hold the development since came other more important projects I have to finish first. In my previous posts of this topic I refer my approach to this project. You can see if there is anything that can be useful to you.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Kalvin on July 13, 2013, 05:28:30 pm
This is very interesting project. I am looking for an inexpensive soldering station for hobby usage, and this project is just perfect for it.

I really admire the original mains synced approach. However, I was wondering whether it would be anyhow feasable to replace the transformer with a cheap 100W and 24VDC switching mode power supply, and use a MOSFET to switch the heating element current on/off. In this way, the system would be smaller, lighter, it wouldn't have to be synced to mains supply, and using DC would give 30% more power to the heating element. SMPS will produce definitely some high frequency voltage noise, which will affect thermocouple voltage measurement, and needs to be filtered out by the hardware/software. Any comments on these ideas?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: diogoc on July 13, 2013, 07:20:13 pm
I'm using a 24v 4A laptop power supply. In my tests the 50hz noise is harder to filter than some high frequency noise from power sypply.
Using DC does not necessarily mean more power to the heating element because we have to turn off the power to make the readings of tip temperature. Sparkybg use the crossing for zero of the mains wave to do the readings.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 13, 2013, 09:07:04 pm
[quote author="Kalvin"]This is very interesting project. I am looking for an inexpensive soldering station for hobby usage, and this project is just perfect for it.

I really admire the original mains synced approach. However, I was wondering whether it would be anyhow feasable to replace the transformer with a cheap 100W and 24VDC switching mode power supply, and use a MOSFET to switch the heating element current on/off. In this way, the system would be smaller, lighter, it wouldn't have to be synced to mains supply, and using DC would give 30% more power to the heating element. SMPS will produce definitely some high frequency voltage noise, which will affect thermocouple voltage measurement, and needs to be filtered out by the hardware/software. Any comments on these ideas?[/quote]

The new version of this controller works both with DC or AC voltage form 10 to 30 volts. It is just a matter of software. When AC power is applied, everything works as in this version. When DC is used, I am using 55Hz timer instead of mains supply.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Kalvin on July 13, 2013, 10:14:28 pm
sparkybg, this is just brilliant. I really admire your work on this. Your design is at least as good as the commercial ones, and it is definitely more versatile as it support different soldering handles, has support even for car usage, not to mention that it allows hobby users an access to professional class soldering irons in budget price. Kudos!

I thought about the sensor board. Would a simple and inexpensive inductive proximity senror do the trick of detecting when the soldering iron is in the holder. Something like 46-LJ18A3-8-ZBX or similar (see attached datasheet). The seem to cost around $2.00 each in eBay.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 13, 2013, 10:43:16 pm
There are endless possibilities for sensing if the iron is in the stand, and of course this sensor is one of them. I made it optical because it was easy to use it in the stands i've got. The controller just wants a logic level signal for this.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on July 13, 2013, 11:08:31 pm
JBC measures connection between the holder and the ironhandle to know if it is parked, this is also used when you remove the tips, so when you drag out the tip, it gets into sleep at the moment you touch the metalholder where you drag them out.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 13, 2013, 11:53:08 pm
Detecting a removed tip is not a problem. On my controller there is pull-up current on the tip (around 30 microamps), and at the moment you remove the tip, the ADC reading goes to maximum.

As far as I know, on some Weller stations there's a metallic ring on the iron handle, and the station detects when you touch it i.e. when the handle is in your hand. 

On some chinese stations there is also handles with acoustic sensor in them. If it detects any noise on the handle, it goes out of sleep mode.

As I said, there are plenty of options for doing the same thing.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Kalvin on August 01, 2013, 03:02:09 pm
Received my Hakko soldering iron/handle (clone) with a few tips (clone), bought from eBay. Waiting for the dsPIC33F microcontroller to arrive. Meanwhile, collecting other parts and components. Maybe I can find even a nice housing for the controller and soldering iron holder for the project. :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on February 02, 2014, 07:09:44 pm
UPDATE:

A new version of firmware is uploaded to post #2. Two guys reported a problems attempting this project, and one of the problems was in zero cross detection threshold. Be aware that you will have to use a decent quality transformer with at least 25% more power rating than the iron you are using. For example, for T12 tips, a 100VA 24V transformer must be enough.

Also, the rectifier diodes on the back PCB are vital for proper functioning of this project. Use Schottky rectifiers with similar rating (including reverse leakage current rating) like those in the project's schematic.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on February 17, 2014, 09:25:14 pm
UPDATE:

A new version of front PCB firmware is posted in post #2. Mains power detection was not working, causing a loss of last temperature and parameters instead of saving them in EEPROM. Now everything works as it should.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: jry on March 05, 2014, 10:22:34 am
sparkybg, thanks for this really nice project and all the effort you are putting into it!
I'm considering building it from the scratch into aluminum box, similar form factor like "esol" Weller driver project on eosystems website (I'm unable to link due to forum anti-spam measures).

I'm thinking about option to drive also JBC microtweezers PA120. According to the JBC website they are managing each cartridge individually. Didn't you think about it?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 05, 2014, 10:45:12 am
[quote author="jry"]sparkybg, thanks for this really nice project and all the effort you are putting into it!
I'm considering building it from the scratch into aluminum box, similar form factor like "esol" Weller driver project on eosystems website (I'm unable to link due to forum anti-spam measures).

I'm thinking about option to drive also JBC microtweezers PA120. According to the JBC website they are managing each cartridge individually. Didn't you think about it?[/quote]

Well, driving each cartridge individually means that you should control another PMOS for it. The station already has 2 individual sense channels. The software also has to be rewritten (2 independent PID contols, and some other things). It is possible, but it will be a major update to project.

Also, the small C210 and C105 cartridges have another wiring, and a bit too low resistance. You should consider this carefully when trying them.

Can you please open the connector of the microtweezers and make a photo of the wires inside?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: jry on March 05, 2014, 11:37:57 am
Unfortunately I don't have PA120 microtweezers (for now), I'm just considering this option. It is tempting...
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on March 05, 2014, 12:52:28 pm
can look at it, if I can open them without destroying them
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 05, 2014, 01:06:38 pm
[quote author="neslekkim"]can look at it, if I can open them without destroying them[/quote]

I think you can. If the connector is the same as on T210/T245 handpiece, you just have to remove one screw and pull back the plastic cover. You will see the wire connections then.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on March 05, 2014, 01:14:25 pm
Oh yeah, I thought you where talking about the tweezers itself, but you mean the connector only, that should be easy :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 05, 2014, 01:28:03 pm
[quote author="neslekkim"]Oh yeah, I thought you where talking about the tweezers itself, but you mean the connector only, that should be easy :)[/quote]

Yes, the connector only. :) I will be very grateful to see a photo of the connections in it.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on March 05, 2014, 11:17:55 pm
Are these usable?
[attachment=0][attachment=1]

Its btw the PA 1200, I guess they had other numbers earlier.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 05, 2014, 11:42:06 pm
Thank you very much.

Is it "green, red, blue, brown, yellow", looking from behind, clockwise?
Can you please check which one is the ground connection of both tips?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on March 05, 2014, 11:56:09 pm
damn low resistance on the tips makes my meter beep everywhere, will try again tomorrow.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 06, 2014, 01:04:00 am
[quote author="neslekkim"]damn low resistance on the tips makes my meter beep everywhere, will try again tomorrow.[/quote]

Dont use it on beep mode. Use it for resistance measurement. I suspect the green wire is the ground one. It will give close to zero resistance between ground wire and body, and nearly zero resistance between ground wire and 2 other wires (I suspect the blue and the brown). The other two wires will give around 2 ohm from them to body, ground wire, and blue and broun wire.

Or, you can measure which wire is connected to which tip by removing the tips and putting them back one by one.

Thank you again for all you are doing.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: jry on March 07, 2014, 01:26:23 pm
sparky, could you please comment on following idea?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 07, 2014, 01:45:08 pm
[quote author="jry"]sparky, could you please comment on following idea?
[/quote]

You should have 2 secondaries - one for each channel. You should have the mosfets optically isolated from the rest of the circuit and from each other. You should have 2 separate MCU-s controlling each channel, or one common MCU isolated from both of them. This is actually 2 separate controllers in one box, eventually with common front panel.

It is a bit odd. But this is because JBC tips are sharing one of the power lines with GND. With Hakko or PACE tips the things are much easyer, because the ground connection (outer shell) is isolated from the heater and thermocouple.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: jry on March 07, 2014, 02:49:33 pm
I'm unable to see the problem of one power supply with two mosfet driven resistors (tips) grounded together. Isn't JBC tip body always grounded?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 07, 2014, 02:58:41 pm
[quote author="jry"]I'm unable to see the problem of one power supply with two mosfet driven resistors (tips) grounded together. Isn't JBC tip body always grounded?[/quote]

Body is always grounded, but there is a link between the body and one of the heater conductors. This will either make both tips using common - or both using common +. But, the thermocouple also is between the body and this same conductor that is common to heater and body.  So, in the end, both + and - of the heater of one tip must be isolated from both + and - of the other heater. Otherwise you either will turn one one tip when turning on other, or the thermocouple of one tip will be in parallel with thermocouple with other tip, and you will not be able to read the temperature.

Draw it on a sheet of paper and you will realise it yourself.

In short, from the 3 connections of the 2 tips, only one can be shared between two. And because this is earth by definition, you cannot use common "-" to regulate by separate "+" (because you will not be able to read the thermocouples), nor you can use common "+" and regulate by "-", because when you turn one heater on, the other will also turn on, because of the common earth that is also connected to "-" of both tips.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: jry on March 07, 2014, 03:49:36 pm
Thanks for your patience, I will put it on paper.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: jry on March 08, 2014, 02:02:23 am
I hope I got it. The problem would be gone when using the same tip type (C245, C210, C470, etc) in both tools?
Problem is caused by different connections inside tips:

[attachment=1]
[quote author="sparkybg"]The heater is always between C2(-) and C3(+). The thermocouple signal is on the same terminals and polarity.

- on the C245 there is a direct link between C3(+) and C1(GND) in the tip.
- on the C210 there is a direct link between C2(-) and C1(GND) in the tip.
[/quote]

(information from neslekkim's post)
C245:
C1(GND) -> C2(-) 2.9 ohm
C1(GND) -> C3(+) 0.2 ohm
C2(-) -> C3(+) 2.9 ohm

C210:
C1(GND) -> C2(-) 0.2 ohm
C1(GND) -> C3(+) 2.1 ohm
C2(-) -> C3(+) 2.1 ohm

Could we just swap C2(-) and C3(+) in T210 "custom" connector? According to JBC specification it is not possible to put C210 tip into T245 and C245 tip into T210? The C470 tip is probably using the same internal connections as C245.

[attachment=0]

I hope I'm not overlooking something obvious. Again.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 08, 2014, 09:43:14 am
[quote author="jry"]I hope I got it. The problem would be gone when using the same tip type (C245, C210, C470, etc) in both tools?
Problem is caused by different connections inside tips:
[/quote]
No. Same or different - does not matter.

[attachment=1]
[quote author="sparkybg"]The heater is always between C2(-) and C3(+). The thermocouple signal is on the same terminals and polarity.

- on the C245 there is a direct link between C3(+) and C1(GND) in the tip.
- on the C210 there is a direct link between C2(-) and C1(GND) in the tip.
[/quote]

(information from neslekkim's post)
C245:
C1(GND) -> C2(-) 2.9 ohm
C1(GND) -> C3(+) 0.2 ohm
C2(-) -> C3(+) 2.9 ohm

C210:
C1(GND) -> C2(-) 0.2 ohm
C1(GND) -> C3(+) 2.1 ohm
C2(-) -> C3(+) 2.1 ohm

Could we just swap C2(-) and C3(+) in T210 "custom" connector? According to JBC specification it is not possible to put C210 tip into T245 and C245 tip into T210? The C470 tip is probably using the same internal connections as C245.[/quote]
It is already swapped, both in the handpiece and the tip.

[quote author="jry"]

[attachment=0]

I hope I'm not overlooking something obvious. Again.[/quote]

The obvious thing you are overlooking is that the tips are no different. Only the terminals are swapped between C245 and C210. Nothing more. On the connector you always have a green(gnd), red(+) and blue(-) wires, and there is always almost zero resistance between red and green and 1.8-3 ohm resistance between red and blue.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on March 08, 2014, 01:46:57 pm
If you look at the connector, these pins have metal/connector inside
T210: 1, 2, 5, 6
T245: 1, 2, 6
PA1200: have male connector, all pins are on the plug (and also on the holder)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 08, 2014, 04:38:47 pm
[quote author="neslekkim"]If you look at the connector, these pins have metal/connector inside
T210: 1, 2, 5, 6
T245: 1, 2, 6
PA1200: have male connector, all pins are on the plug (and also on the holder)[/quote]

It is 1,2,5,6 on T210 and 1,2,5 on T245.
Connector 6 is for identification. There is direct connection with connector 5 on T210 and resistor on microtweezers there:
(http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=10998&mode=view)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on March 08, 2014, 06:03:58 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"][quote author="neslekkim"]damn low resistance on the tips makes my meter beep everywhere, will try again tomorrow.[/quote]

Dont use it on beep mode. Use it for resistance measurement. I suspect the green wire is the ground one. It will give close to zero resistance between ground wire and body, and nearly zero resistance between ground wire and 2 other wires (I suspect the blue and the brown). The other two wires will give around 2 ohm from them to body, ground wire, and blue and broun wire.

Or, you can measure which wire is connected to which tip by removing the tips and putting them back one by one.

Thank you again for all you are doing.[/quote]

So if I number the pins like this, this is the plug for the pa1200
[attachment=0]

1 = green = ground
2 = red
3 = blue
4 = brown
5 = yellow
6 = resistor to ground, 68k

With one heater inserted, I have:

1 - 2 = 3 ohm
1 - 3 =  0.6ohm

With the other heater:

1 - 4 = 0.6ohm
1 - 5 = 3 ohm
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 08, 2014, 06:10:29 pm
Thank you. It appears that they are really treating each tip completely separate from another one.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: jry on March 08, 2014, 06:16:14 pm
I hope I understand it now, thank you. One more question:

[quote author="sparkybg"]Body is always grounded, but there is a link between the body and one of the heater conductors. This will either make both tips using common - or both using common +. But, the thermocouple also is between the body and this same conductor that is common to heater and body.[/quote]

I'm not sure what do you mean with LINK? Is it 0.2ohm connection through the thermocouple?
Thermocouple voltage is measured on C1(GND) and C3(+) pins?
[attachment=0]
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 08, 2014, 06:32:32 pm
You can measure the thermocouple between C1 and C3, or between C2 and C3. I am not sure anymore where the heck is thermocouple. Now I measure it between C2 and C3 on my controller, in order to be able to connect earth to C1. but before this, i was measuring it between C1 and C3, and it also worked without any problem. Bur there was upto 0.5V present on the body in respect to ground of the wall power outlet, which was not good.

By "link" I mean low resistance contact. On the picture - this is C3 to C1.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: jry on March 08, 2014, 06:33:25 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]Thank you. It appears that they are really treating each tip completely separate from another one.[/quote]

So it means two separate channels (secondaries, mosfets, opamps, MCU) even for tweezers controller.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 08, 2014, 06:38:25 pm
[quote author="jry"][quote author="sparkybg"]Thank you. It appears that they are really treating each tip completely separate from another one.[/quote]

So it means two separate channels (secondaries, mosfets, opamps, MCU) even for tweezers controller.[/quote]

Yes, or at least I thing so.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: jry on March 08, 2014, 06:46:03 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]Now I measure it between C2 and C3 on my controller, in order to be able to connect earth to C1.[/quote]

Is TC voltage between C2 and C3 also present on heated standalone tip, disconnected from handle?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on March 08, 2014, 07:30:40 pm
[quote author="jry"][quote author="sparkybg"]Thank you. It appears that they are really treating each tip completely separate from another one.[/quote]

So it means two separate channels (secondaries, mosfets, opamps, MCU) even for tweezers controller.[/quote]

I guess there is an reason that the tweezer cannot be used for the CD-2BB/2BC, but then again you have CP-2C...
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 08, 2014, 07:45:23 pm
[quote author="jry"]
Is TC voltage between C2 and C3 also present on heated standalone tip, disconnected from handle?[/quote]

Yes, it is. You can measure it yourself.
Get a lighter, put your multimeter on "mV DC", attach it to C1 and C3 terminals of C245, and heat up the tip with lighter. You will see a rising voltage between C1 and C3, which will be around 4mV per 200 degrees celsius. You will see the same voltage on C2 and C3.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: jry on March 08, 2014, 07:54:28 pm
Strange. In this case I don't see where the thermocouple could be.

I will receive my JBC tips during a few days - still waiting.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: BillyW on March 08, 2014, 08:39:33 pm
[quote author="jry"]Strange. In this case I don't see where the thermocouple could be.
[/quote]

A thermocouple is a loop of two dissimilar metals. With reference to the section photograph on the previous page there is very little thermocouple between C1 and C2 terminals they are probably both stainless steel. The heater element is dissimilar but there is little temperature difference across it - what difference there is when you heat the tip might account for the observed slight thermocouple effect between C1 and C2.

The dissimilar metal in the cartridge has to be the centre rod C3. What is it is I have no idea, the thermocouple is likely stainless steel and this 'something'. The cold junction for this thermocouple is the contacts in the hand piece and the hand piece does warm up especially with heavy use so it is a significant source of temperature error. They might be able to make an estimate of hand piece warming and roughly compensate in software.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: jry on March 08, 2014, 08:54:16 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"][quote author="jry"]So it means two separate channels (secondaries, mosfets, opamps, MCU) even for tweezers controller.[/quote]

Yes, or at least I thing so.[/quote]

Possible solution for PA120 Micro Tweezers would drive and measure only one tip in one time (25Hz)? Disconnect other tip C2(-) and C3(+) connections for this period. With 100VA transformer you would need limit tip power anyway.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 10, 2014, 11:17:59 am
A guy pointed me to this thread:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/j ... /msg376294 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/jbc-soldering-iron-stand-wiring/msg376294)

It is just another investigation.

I think, maybe there are two thermocouples. One between C1 and C3 and one between C2 and C3. Otherwise I cannot figure out how it is possible to have same TC voltage on C1-C3 and C2-C3. Maybe  the outer shell and the middle (C2) sleeve are from same material. The heater also is from this same material, and the C3 (the pin) is from dissimilar material from all other.

If this is the case, then driving 2 tips is easy - you put common ground on outer shell, common "-" on the pin and separate "+" on the sleeve. And the TC voltage will be negative in respect to common "-" this way, so we have to use inverting amplifier to read it. Tonight I will try what happens with C2-C3 TC voltage when C1-C3 are short-circuited. If the C2-C3 voltage stays the same when C1-C3 are connected together, then this might be the case (2 thermocouples).
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on March 10, 2014, 12:19:28 pm
Maybe that's the reason its so difficult to measure the resistanse?, I have two fluke's, 87-v and 289, and the numbers are just rolling, but on my Agilent 34461A, it's easier to get the almost correct resistance, still rolling, but easier to controll.

It's difficult to do measurements inside the connectors, as they are heatshrinked, should have made an breakout with these hirose connectors so one could see what's going on when using them, the reference I got earlier to measure somewhere on the flatcable inside, is not very appealing :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on March 10, 2014, 12:24:27 pm
Someone in eevblog just posted some photos inside the station also:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevbl ... #msg402787 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-472-jbc-cd-2bb-soldering-iron-teardown/msg402787/#msg402787)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 10, 2014, 12:40:29 pm
Just as I thought. They are using USB-RS232 + isolator for connection to the outer world. :)

As for resistance - I didn't had any problem measuring it. It is hard to measure if the tip is warm, but then, on Fluke 289 (and perhaps 87-V) you should have a function to measure the resistance in the presence of offset voltage. My Agilent U1272A has it, and it is more or less an equivalent to Fluke 87. With this function it can measure the resistance correctly even when the tip is hot and with several millivolts on the thermocouple. My cheap chinese miltimeter also measures the resistance of the cold tip without any problem. I don't know where your problems are coming from.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: jry on March 10, 2014, 12:41:48 pm
Breakout would be great also for waveform test (if they are driving tips with sine wave or half/full rectified).
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on March 10, 2014, 12:51:35 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]Just as I thought. They are using USB-RS232 + isolator for connection to the outer world. :)

As for resistance - I didn't had any problem measuring it. It is hard to measure if the tip is warm, but then, on Fluke 289 (and perhaps 87-V) you should have a function to measure the resistance in the presence of offset voltage. My Agilent U1272A has it, and it is more or less an equivalent to Fluke 87. With this function it can measure the resistance correctly even when the tip is hot and with several millivolts on the thermocouple. My cheap chinese miltimeter also measures the resistance of the cold tip without any problem. I don't know where your problems are coming from.[/quote]

Is that a function you have to activate?, I must admit that all instruments are new, so possible there are somethings I didn't check.
Probably I should get out my old Fluke 75
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 10, 2014, 01:01:57 pm
On my multimeter there is a button to activate it. It is called "smart ohm" or something similar (I am at work now and cannot see).

I suspect that it must be activated by the user on Fluke too if it has it. I don't know if 87 has it, but I think 287 must have it. I don't know how it is called on Fluke.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: jry on March 10, 2014, 03:39:06 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]If this is the case, then driving 2 tips is easy - you put common ground on outer shell, common "-" on the pin and separate "+" on the sleeve. And the TC voltage will be negative in respect to common "-" this way, so we have to use inverting amplifier to read it. Tonight I will try what happens with C2-C3 TC voltage when C1-C3 are short-circuited. If the C2-C3 voltage stays the same when C1-C3 are connected together, then this might be the case (2 thermocouples).[/quote]

Do you mean this way?
Edit: updated scheme.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 10, 2014, 04:13:50 pm
Yes, exactly.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: jry on March 10, 2014, 06:00:22 pm
JBC tip description: http://www.google.com/patents/EP1086772A2?cl=en (http://www.google.com/patents/EP1086772A2?cl=en)

Another (four wires) tip: http://www.google.com/patents/US5122637 (http://www.google.com/patents/US5122637)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 10, 2014, 10:46:15 pm
Thanks.

So, this comfims my initial idea of where the thermocouple is. But I still cannot explain to myself why the TC voltage is available on both C1 to C3 and C2 to C3 terminals. Moreover - when C1-C3 are shorted with a piece of wire, the voltage between C2 and C3 also disappears, and vice versa. This means the it is indeed one thermocouple, but I still cannot figure out how can this be possible looking at the picrtures and the patent.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: jry on March 11, 2014, 12:14:11 am
Is it problem for controlling multiple tips with one psu? We can read temperature on C2-C3 pins?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 11, 2014, 12:36:33 am
You must at least have switches for both + and - of each tip. I cannot imagine other way.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: jry on March 11, 2014, 02:18:38 am
I see it, thanks.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: randomone on March 14, 2014, 01:44:56 pm
Firstly a big thanks to sparkybg for sharing, awesome project and it's saved me a heap of time doing R&D on an iron controller of my own. So I am busy acquiring the bits to build one of these. I am also thinking of getting a Hakko iron to use with it. (Eventually a JBC but as pointed out they have pricey tips).

I was thinking a Genuine handle and Chinese tips, comments please ....

Also are the T12 and T15 tips interchangeable ? What's the difference ? T15 is EU and North America only, is the difference as simple as the restriction of use of a material in the tip.

Thanks.
Cam.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 14, 2014, 02:14:36 pm
As far as I know, there is no difference between T12 and T15 tips. You can also use PACE TD100, but the coefficients of the PID must be changed.

You can also get chinese FX-9501 handle for T12/T15. These are good enough.

Don't buy chinese FM-2027/28 - total crap!
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: randomone on March 14, 2014, 02:21:21 pm
Excellent thanks for the info just what I was after. I take it the usual sources eBay and AliExpress are the places to browse ?

Out of interest how have you been tuning the PID parameters on the V1 of the controller. Just using the LED display for feedback or do you have a sneaky way of graphing the output ?

Cam.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 14, 2014, 02:31:53 pm
Just using the LED display. :)

And, just using a cotton piece with isopropil alcohol to be able to coll down the tip faster.

It is a bit slow and tricky process. :)

I am now working on V3. It has isolated USB, 2 channels for heaters, 2 sensor inputs that can be inverted and/or used as single differential input, and connected freely, and  a separate input for shunt resistor. However, it became much more complicated, and routing 3-4 times more parts on the same PCBs was a little nightmare. :) I am still working on the back PCB.
This version will also be able to control JBC microtweezers.

...but I think it will cost me some months to complete. The PCB assembly alone will cost me 10-12 hours to complete.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: randomone on March 14, 2014, 05:07:34 pm
Thanks for the PID tips. I see pins 27 (PGC) and 28 (PGD) are also available for TXD2 and RXD2 so graphing is a possibility without altering the PCB.

Sounds like V3 is going to be the controller to end them all. I can't wait to see how you have tackled the various design choices and problems.

Cam.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: randomone on March 17, 2014, 02:31:44 pm
As I am about to order the bits to make one of these I thought I may as well post the BOMs for the benefit of others with links to components on the Farnell UK website (my preferred supplier). Note they are untested BOMs at this stage, use at your own risk etc.

Cam.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 17, 2014, 07:17:06 pm
UPDATE: New version of front firmware is uploaded in post#2. A friend reported a problems with low brightness - the controller was not able to detect mains voltage when low brightness (under 3) is selected, and is constantly restarting after the first attempt to set brightness under 3. This is corrected now.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 26, 2014, 11:37:58 am
Soon there will be a new version. The most universal I can think of.
- Isolated USB connection (HID class) for firmware updates, live data, and PID tunning.
- Will be able to recognize unlimited number of instruments - can read resistor, 1-wire EEPROM or 1-wire MCU in the connector or handle. When MCU is used in the handle, it will be able to read the temperature in the handle also, for the best possible accuracy.
- Will be able to control 2 heaters simultaneously, for microtweezers of any kind.
- Will be able to read any TC or resistive (PTC,NTC) sensor, linear or not.
- Sensor input can be wired freely, can be inverted or wired in differential configuration.
- 2 sensor inputs have separate 4uA - 16mA precise current sources for resistive measurements.
- Will be able to work with any voltage between 10 and 24 volts, AC or DC
- OLED display option, for more information and better user interface on the station.

Unfortunately it became pretty complex, and not so cheap, but still much cheaper than many OEM controllers. I have just finished the PCBs. I will open a new thread when I have a working prototype.

[attachment=1][attachment=0]
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: randomone on March 30, 2014, 01:57:52 pm
This is going to be the controller to end them all. Can't wait to get my hands on one. Can you tell me does it still have the PGA in the front end that you mentioned earlier ?

Cam.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 30, 2014, 02:08:00 pm
[quote author="randomone"]This is going to be the controller to end them all. Can't wait to get my hands on one. Can you tell me does it still have the PGA in the front end that you mentioned earlier ?

Cam.[/quote]

What do you mean by "PGA"?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: randomone on March 30, 2014, 03:04:41 pm
Sorry, Programmable Gain Amplifier, as mentioned here (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=52765#p52765), granted this was way back at v2.

[quote author="sparkybg"]Coming soon: V2:
- variable hardware amplifier gain form 4 to 1024.
...[/quote]
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 30, 2014, 07:19:48 pm
There is input selector at the input, which can select channel A, channel B, and differential A-B, the signal ground is separated from power ground, then there is an option to invert the signal from selected channels, then there is digital pot to select gain (upto 750 in 256 steps - this is because the controller works with 3.0V reference instead of 4.096V), and then there is a 10bit DAC for offset correction for 0-3V. This is done with separate components - opamps, analog switches, digital pots, DACs etc.
There is also separate current sources for channel A and B for resistive measurements. Again it is done with digital pot, opamp, and MOSFETs. The input opamps are working with bipolar power - +3.3 and -0.6V.

My goal was to use widely available and replaceable components for this all. Only the input selector and USB isolator are unique products from Analog Devices, but again - they are available from Farnell, Mouser, Digikey and others, so I considered these parts as acceptable for my project.

The input stage is wired like an instrumentational amplifier. There is separate opamp stage for amplification of shunt resistor voltage wired the same way.

The MCU is PIC32. It can be done with PIC24 also, but the price difference between the two is very low.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: randomone on March 30, 2014, 10:42:53 pm
I am impressed I would have leapt for an all in one solution. Now I understand the routing nightmare !

Cam.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sleemanj on March 31, 2014, 01:34:33 am
[quote author="sparkybg"]Soon there will be a new version. The most universal I can think of. [/quote]

Very nice

I don't know that the tab for the USB is a good idea.  If it were me, I'd make the board purely rectangular, so that it can just have V grooves to break apart a panel, also mechanically stronger and easier to fit in an enclosure.  In fact, I'd look into making the USB just a pcb header connection so you can put a panel mounted USB socket wherever.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 31, 2014, 09:21:49 am
[quote author="sleemanj"][quote author="sparkybg"]Soon there will be a new version. The most universal I can think of. [/quote]

Very nice

I don't know that the tab for the USB is a good idea.  If it were me, I'd make the board purely rectangular, so that it can just have V grooves to break apart a panel, also mechanically stronger and easier to fit in an enclosure.
[/quote]

The project is made to fit in this particular enclosure:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8EptN6dwos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8EptN6dwos)

USB connector is strong enough. I had the same concerns about how strong will it be, but believe me - with 1.6mm PCB thickness, it is rock solid.

And, after all, anyone can modify it. The PCB itself is full almost to the limit for it's size. I cannot make it any bigger, because it will not fit my box anymore, but if someone is using another enclosure, and there is enough place in it any solution is OK.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: NeoFromMatrix on April 04, 2014, 11:17:52 am
Realy nice project ! :)

Can you upload it to github ?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 04, 2014, 12:15:15 pm
As far as I know, github is only for software.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on April 04, 2014, 12:24:45 pm
No, lots of hardware projects there.. i.e: https://github.com/FriedCircuits/FC-USB-Tester (https://github.com/FriedCircuits/FC-USB-Tester)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on April 04, 2014, 12:24:52 pm
No, lots of hardware projects there.. i.e: https://github.com/FriedCircuits/FC-USB-Tester (https://github.com/FriedCircuits/FC-USB-Tester)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: poorchava on April 08, 2014, 02:01:05 pm
I'd really love to see the schematic of this :) I've been thinking about building a JBC controller for a while, but haven't had time to do it.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on April 08, 2014, 02:08:12 pm
read post 2 in this thread, it's there.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: carpenter on April 11, 2014, 06:37:42 pm
Hello.
I make controller for induction soldering tips METCAL and thinking add 3 port for resistence heater tips any as Metcal T12.
Unfortunately, I do not tip T12 at hand.
What type of sensor is used in the tip T12?

By the way.
Using Altium Designer, but how you achieved quality of the 3D model in the pictures in the first post?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 11, 2014, 07:25:17 pm
The sensor is series thermocouple. In other words, the heater itself is also a thermocouple. It is a nickel-canthal or nickel-nichrome thermcopule.

3D renderings are from SolidWorks. It is saved as STEP file, then loaded in SW, then some textures and bump maps are added for the board traces to be visible.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: poorchava on April 11, 2014, 11:06:14 pm
A thing that bothers me a bit is the relation between C245 tip heater resistance, power and the transformer voltage and current. As seen on Dave Jonse's teardown video, original JBC station feeds the heater with 23.5VAC and there's almost no drop as switching is done with back to back N-mosfets. This means that heater resistance would be 1/(150/23.5^2)=3.7R. I am measuring 2.4R across the heater which would mean that instantenous peak power is 230W. I'm kind of interested in this as I often need to solder stuff like Metal-core PCBs.

Do C245 tips of different shapes have different heater resistances and hence - power? I only have one so I can't compare by myself.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 11, 2014, 11:40:52 pm
[quote author="poorchava"]A thing that bothers me a bit is the relation between C245 tip heater resistance, power and the transformer voltage and current. As seen on Dave Jonse's teardown video, original JBC station feeds the heater with 23.5VAC and there's almost no drop as switching is done with back to back N-mosfets. This means that heater resistance would be 1/(150/23.5^2)=3.7R. I am measuring 2.4R across the heater which would mean that instantenous peak power is 230W. I'm kind of interested in this as I often need to solder stuff like Metal-core PCBs.

Do C245 tips of different shapes have different heater resistances and hence - power? I only have one so I can't compare by myself.[/quote]

The resistance of all is +/- 20% or so. And, no, it is not 230W instantaneous. The transformer voltage significantly drops when a load with such low resistance is connected to it.

The resistance of C210 is even lower. 1.6 - 2.5ohm. :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: carpenter on April 12, 2014, 10:36:53 am
Thank you for the information. I'll try to render STEP model from Altium  in Autodesk Inventor 2015, interesting idea.
So we tried it, but unfortunately my AD does not export all. Missing descriptions of parts and  Pads + tracks on the PCB.
i.imgur.*com/uwfNKhb.jpg (please remove *)
Where could the problem be?

Thermo couple in Hakko T12.
Nickel-kanthal or nickel-nichrome is not normalized thermocouples. Hakko use resistence wire in heating element (kanthal or mickel) and add nickel wire . You can find a table thermoeletrick voltage for this thermocouples?
Cold junction compensation, somehow solve this problém?
Supply voltage .
 I suppose the original Hakko 24AC.
In my driver for Metcal inductive pen, I have a 24V DC (4A) and controllably 10-48V DC (3A).
The easiest for me would be used for T12 24V DC, but (24AC 34DC is) so I'm not sure. What is the resistance of the heating element in the T12?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: poorchava on April 12, 2014, 07:11:54 pm
Another question: what's the merit behind using emitter followers in output transistor gate drive and in front of switch mode regulator? Their only function seems to be protection from overvoltage coming from the transformer. Is that right?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 12, 2014, 07:50:12 pm
It is not a protection. It is just 28V linear regulator. The controller is made to be able to work with 24V AC. When you have +/-20% on this, and another 10-20% up when the transformer is not loaded, you have maximum of 24**1.2*1,2*1.414 which is around 48-50V max. The linear regulator in question gives a maximum of around 28 volts out of this, and the switching regulator can easily handle it. Because the switcher is there and it's input voltage is high, the current is low, and the linear regulator power disipation is also low.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: poorchava on April 12, 2014, 09:06:19 pm
Btw. I'm doing a design based on yours, but JBC exclusive and cheaper. C245 tips are 30-40€ a piece at TME.eu, and T245-A handpiece is about 60€, so that makes this party already expensive. Unfortunately HAKKO is not an option for 2 reasons: 70W is kind of too low for my applications and HAKKO stuff is pretty much unavailable in eastern EU. So my goal is to make this as cheap as possible.

Intended changes as compared to your circuit will be:
-use MC34063 as switcher to generate 9V and then 5V and 3.3V LDOs (generic 1117)
-use more THT parts, as they often occupy less space (eg. inductors)
-probably use different MOSFET (maybe lower voltage MOSFET + BIG zener across D-S will come out cheaper?)
-add temperature sensor and PCB cutout near the connector to compensate for cold junction
-add mcu independant circuit that will protect circuit from overheating should the mcu freeze (also from permanent-on state when  mcu is halted during debugging)
-change microcontroller to ARM (most likely STM32F030) - because I don't like PIC and the one which you are using requires PK3 which I don't have
-add reference voltage source.
-stuff it all onto as small pcb as possible to reduce pcb fab cost
-add support for rotary encoder
-don't use molex-like connectors - they are expensive, wires will be soldered to pcb directly.

the list will probably grow, as I'm in the middle of going through the design.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 12, 2014, 10:09:07 pm
[quote author="poorchava"]
-use MC34063 as switcher to generate 9V
[/quote]
This is ancient, low frequency, a bit hard to run properly, and low efficiency. And, why do you need 9V?
[quote author="poorchava"]
 and then 5V and 3.3V LDOs (generic 1117)
[/quote]
Why 5 and 3.3? I think It is better to run all the system from the same voltage.
[quote author="poorchava"]
-use more THT parts, as they often occupy less space (eg. inductors)
[/quote]
I will have to diagree with this. The height of the THT inductors is more than the height of the SMD, but I THT are not shielded. This means more RFI. You are using low frequency PWM chip, and it needs bigger inductor if you want to have the same ripple on the output.

[quote author="poorchava"]
-probably use different MOSFET (maybe lower voltage MOSFET + BIG zener across D-S will come out cheaper?)
[/quote]
You can use 60V MOSFET for example. But you will have to rely on a TVS (which is more or less a big Zener). But I prefer to use protection only for protection, not for common operation. There's plenty of modern MOSFET-s available out there to choose from. I am using different MOSFET-s on my next version. Not because these are not good, but because I needed a smaller footprint and less losses.

[quote author="poorchava"]
-add temperature sensor and PCB cutout near the connector to compensate for cold junction
[/quote]
You will have to use compenasting cable for this to work. And for non-standart thermocpuple you have nowhere to find such. I you don't, you will have to measure the cold junction where it is - in the iron's handle, right next to the tip contacts. You don't need this. Put a sensor in a place where it will read the room temperature, and compensate for room temperature. This is the easyest thing you can do. The newer version of my controller has it on the board, right next to the intake ventilation holes of the box I am using.

[quote author="poorchava"]
-add reference voltage source.
[/quote]
The PIC I am using has it inside itself. That's why I am not using the separate one. On the next version, which uses PIC32 instead, I have external 3.0V voltage reference. The whole system works on 3.3V.

[quote author="poorchava"]
the list will probably grow, as I'm in the middle of going through the design.[/quote]

Put a link here, if you decide to publish it. I am curious to see what you will come to. :)

...and don't get me wrong - this is not a criticism. I am just sharing my thoughts. ;)

About the connectors - all the connectors in this version are chinese cheap ones. And they just work. I am using MOLEX equivalents on the PCB because there is a 3D object for every component they make, and it is easy to use them in Altium. The most common MOLEX parts are made by another manufacturers also, including chinese ones. I am using CVILUX parts for example.

I am from eastern europe also - Bulgaria. But there's companies here, importing from Farnell, Digikey and Mouser almost on a daily basis. TME shipping is 7EUR to my door. This is huge inventory to choose from.

For the T12 tips - chinese clones are cheap - 6-8USD per tip. There's nothing cheaper on the market. I buy them from AliExpress and eBay. However, I must say JBC is my favorite, despite the higher price.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: poorchava on April 13, 2014, 11:26:31 am
MC34063 is because it's cheap and available. The inductor calculated for 500mA current draw is about 68uH, so not that big. footprint came out a bit large with 2 8mm capacitors and a 6mm choke. Efficiency is not much of an issue at those power levels.

You may be right about dual voltage.

As for tht parts, I don't care that much about height, I just try to keep below 12mm or so. Inductor will be unshielded, but it'll be away from the sensitive part of the circuit, and with proper grounding layout I don't think interferences will be an issue. Inductor is 6mm in diameter, and the smallest SMT I could find for cheap was 8x8. Also, with smt inductors, you need some component-free room around contacts, so that you can solder them. I don't care that much about ripple, as it is only a preregulator, and given the low frequency of the converter, the rejection of distortions should still be reasonable on the linear regulator.

For mosfet I was aiming at SQD19P06-60L-GE3 from Vishay. It should do the job, and if not, then it can be replaced with something else, as the footprint is a standard DPAK.

You are right with temperature sensor, it will have to be placed outside. I think it's possible to roughly compensate for handpiece temperature. I guess I could measure how much does the temperature rise from holding it in hand and from thermal transfer from the tip and how fast does the temperature change, and then calculate temperature of the handle based on how long the iron is not in the stand (eg. in your hand).
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Astrid on April 14, 2014, 05:59:30 pm
What exactly is the resistance of the heating element in the T15 tip?
Could someone please measure the resistance of the very tip and then the tip with bracket and lead wire?
if anyone could measure the resistance of cold and hot tip I would like in heaven !!!
Thank you in advance for your willingness
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 14, 2014, 06:25:53 pm
The resistance of the tip heater is 8-9ohm.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Astrid on April 14, 2014, 06:39:20 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]The resistance of the tip heater is 8-9ohm.[/quote]
Cold tip?
What is the resistance of the hot tip?
Why do I ask?
I have a 24V DC 5A and adjustable DC 20-40V max 3A and decides whether to use 24V or use regulated power supply 20-40V 3A, but it has meaning only if the amount of resistance than 8 ohm because 8Ohm * 3A = 24V
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 14, 2014, 06:46:24 pm
[quote author="Astrid"][quote author="sparkybg"]The resistance of the tip heater is 8-9ohm.[/quote]
Cold tip?
What is the resistance of the hot tip?
Why do I ask?
I have a 24V DC 5A and adjustable DC 20-40V max 3A and decides whether to use 24V or use regulated power supply 20-40V 3A, but it has meaning only if the amount of resistance than 8 ohm because 8Ohm * 3A = 24V[/quote]

Temperature does not matter. Resistance stays 8-9ohm both at room temperature and at 450 degrees.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: poorchava on April 14, 2014, 09:33:37 pm
Strange thing: I got my test tip from work. It was scrapped, but the heater and everything is fine, just the plating is trashed. The strange part, is that is has 2245-039 part number on it. I've found multiple references to this stuff on the internet, mostly saying that it's compatible with C245 series. Also judging from photos, 2245 handpiece seems identical as T245-A.

Is 2245 a predecessor of T245-A?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 14, 2014, 09:49:04 pm
Yes.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: svp97 on April 17, 2014, 06:49:43 pm
Hi.
What do you think about Pace TD100 ?
The handle is way too expensive, but the tips are very cheap.
I found original parts for Hakko at dancap electronics, but they are not very cheap.
Well, it's cheaper than the JBC 245.

What happened with the new version ?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 18, 2014, 08:07:04 pm
[quote author="svp97"]Hi.
What do you think about Pace TD100 ?
The handle is way too expensive, but the tips are very cheap.
I found original parts for Hakko at dancap electronics, but they are not very cheap.
Well, it's cheaper than the JBC 245.
[/quote]
The tips are thinner and with around 2 times lower resistance. Otherwise they are the same as HAKKO T12 - series thermocouple giving the same voltage. I have one such tip for testing. The quality is OK. In fact I like TD100 better than Hakko.

...but still the chinese T12 clones are the cheapest one can get.

[quote author="svp97"]
What happened with the new version ?[/quote]
Not so fast, my friend. :) The boards are still to come, then I will have to assemble them, then update the firmware to use the new features. It will be no less than a month to have a working prototype.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: svp97 on April 18, 2014, 10:36:40 pm
That's great. I still cannot understand what is so expensive in these f***** handles !? 90 euros for a piece of CHINESE plastic !

I was thinking to PM you, but let the others know- What do you think of the chinese (mainly from aliexpress) copies (doesent matter, that they say MADE IN JAPAN) ?
Something like these:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/10pcs-lo ... 33283.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/10pcs-lot-lead-free-T12-series-soldering-tips-for-HAKKO-FX-951-FX-952-soldering-station/684033283.html)
I saw your video of the clone t12 and my question is- are they really that bad ?
I mean, are there cheap clones that are good or at least close to the originals ?

I also have an idea- can you eventually someday design a hot air controller with similar interface as the soldering iron controller ?
Would be very handy, don't you think ?
Especially with so many cheap spare parts.

...and what about kits ?
As i see, everybody would appreciate kit version of the S.I. controller.

Thank for the help and wish you luck !
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 19, 2014, 01:09:09 am
Yes, these (chinese T12) are the exact thing I was mentioned several times already. 95% ot them are OK. The difference from the original is almost absent. That's why I am considering them a cheap alternative. I have around 40 of them. Only two of these does not work. The rest are OK. I don't have a tip that failed due to work. I fried some in the process of writing the firmware, but that's all. :)

About hot air controller, I do have a chinese one from around 7-8 years. And it is good enough and cheap enough. Even if I do make a controller, I don't think it will be as attractive and popular as an universal soldering controller. However, it is, I think, not so hard task. Again, you have to control a heater and read a thermocouple for the temperature. In fact I think that this controller will be able to do the task after some playing with the PID coefficients. The hot air stations are usually more powerful, and I don't know the voltage of the heater, but anyway, the principle is the same. Only the power stage would be a bit bigger and working with a bit higher voltage eventually.

About the kits - let me make a prorotype for the new version, and then we will discuss this if there are enough people wanting PCBs. I can order as much PCBs as needed from seeed, and the shipping within the EU is cheap enough for anybody to obtain the boards. But we will discuss this later, eventually. This is the maximum I can do. I cannot afford to offer assembled PCBs, because I do not have the time to make them. In fact, I think the time needed for the assembly of the boards is the most expensive part of the project after writing the firmware.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: svp97 on April 19, 2014, 12:20:49 pm
So, some of them will heat up fast pretty much like the genuine, and a few of them are total crap ?
Interesting, why did they write Made in Japan ? 
I hope the Japans didn't start cloning and doing fake rubbish products...

Just think of it. How many people have good quality hot air stations ?
This way, you will give a way everybody to do a good quality hot air station with genuine high quality parts, not chinese s**t station !
The problem with chinese ones is that the newer they get, the crappy they get. I mean, most of them are totally useless.
The display shows 350C, and the thermometer shows 200... They also fail pretty quickly. I have 3 dead ones which just do not deserve to be repaired. They die like nothing.
Well, you decide. The heaters as i know work directly from the mains and the temp. is regulated with phase controll (i think that was the term :) )
Also, it will be very cool if it has a bargraph showing the air flow which too must be controlled.

Ok. That's a good idea. Won't be bad if the MCUs are pre programmed.
Also can we see some pics of the new version and a change log. What is new ?
If you want help, PM me.
( Two weeks an i still have no activation @mail for mcu-bg...)
I am too from Bulgaria and i will be glad to help with what i can !
And yes, it is more fun to assemble it yourself than getting an already assembled one, but it is a bit ironic to assemble and solder yourself a soldering controller :D

What about a way of powering the S.I. controller with SMPS.
I know it is mains syncronized and it will not work with high frequency SMPS, but it will be very handy.
This way you will be able to make an extremely small soldering station.
Something like two cigarette boxes !
Is there any way ?
Also, if you sinc it with let's say 20khz flyback, non filtered switched PS, is it going to have time to take the measurements ?

Thanks for the brief answers and the help, and the project itself !
Happy holidays !!!
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 19, 2014, 01:46:16 pm
[quote author="svp97"]
What about a way of powering the S.I. controller with SMPS.
I know it is mains syncronized and it will not work with high frequency SMPS, but it will be very handy.
This way you will be able to make an extremely small soldering station.
Something like two cigarette boxes !
Is there any way ?
Also, if you sinc it with let's say 20khz flyback, non filtered switched PS, is it going to have time to take the measurements ?
[/quote]

The new version works works with 10-26V, AC or DC. If it is not AC, it will make a timer tick 55 timer per second and do the same as AC. So, yes, it can be powered by an SMPS, as long as the SMPS itself is powerfull enough for the tips you are using.

The schematics and the PCB will be available after I have a working prototype. It is pointless to publish them without knowing for sure if they do what they are expected to do.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: svp97 on April 19, 2014, 02:03:07 pm
PERFECT !
Count me in with 2-3 PCBs when it is ready !

And thanks for everything !
If you need help, just ask.

Thanks !
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 19, 2014, 02:23:16 pm
[quote author="svp97"]So, some of them will heat up fast pretty much like the genuine, and a few of them are total crap ?
Interesting, why did they write Made in Japan ?  [/quote]

Most of them are OK. And very few of them are not. And, considering their low price (around 4-6USD per piece), these are perfect low-cost alternative to the originals. There are almost no difference between a chinese one that is OK, and the original one - they have same resistance, they heat up equally fast, and the quality of the tip itself is OK. As I said, I don't have a defective tip as a result of working with it. I fried some in the process of writing the firmware, but this is entirely my fault - they start to glow red-orange before they fail, and this is much more than 450 degrees.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: poorchava on April 23, 2014, 02:05:15 pm
I think I have kind of figured out how JBC originally drives the back-to-back MOSFETs.

Based on some photos posted on EEVblog, I think this is roughly what JBC is doing in their irons.

24V winding from the transformer is connected to the inner jacket of the tip, and to the central rod via back-to-back mosfet switch. Outer jacket is the system ground, and the termocouple amplifier is connected between ground and inner jacket. This way, the heater drive is completly floating and will not mess up thermocouple measurement when mosfet switch is disabled.

This would also fit for having two dual-mosfet switches for hot tweezers. When mosfet switches are disabled, the thermocouples are disconnected from each other and measurements can be made independently, when switches are enabled, then two heaters operate in parallel from single transformer winding.

Below is how i think the gate drive is done. D5, D6 and C1 form a charge pump that develops positive voltage in respect to mosfet sources. Top optocoupler activates a pnp transistor which dumps the charge from charge pump into mosfet gate, the lower optocoupler activates a transostor which shunts gate to source disabling the mosfets. This way they have separate on and off signals (i suppose they could be inverting on of the control signals and drive the entire thing with single PWM from microcontroller).

This means that the control circuitry has to have a separate winding, but that's not a problem, as small potted low power transformers are not expensive and can be bought literally anywhere.

(http://http://i1261.photobucket.com/albums/ii588/poorchava/gimp_zpse33a63b5.png) (http://http://s1261.photobucket.com/user/poorchava/media/gimp_zpse33a63b5.png.html)
(http://http://i1261.photobucket.com/albums/ii588/poorchava/mos_sch_zpsc1b7aa1d.png) (http://http://s1261.photobucket.com/user/poorchava/media/mos_sch_zpsc1b7aa1d.png.html)
(http://http://i1261.photobucket.com/albums/ii588/poorchava/waveform_zpse393efa5.png) (http://http://s1261.photobucket.com/user/poorchava/media/waveform_zpse393efa5.png.html)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 23, 2014, 02:18:23 pm
I do this with single winding transformer and no optocouplers. :)

Every pole to the heater has PMOS for "+" and NMOS for "-". Totaly 4 MOSFETS. Then, when you measure the thermocouple, you must turn on the coresponding NMOS for the "-".

I made all this using 2 wires - one for selection which heater to use, and one for turning ON and OFF the power to this heater.

We will see how this performs when I have a working prototype. I am still waiting for the PCBs to arrive.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: poorchava on April 23, 2014, 04:00:36 pm
Good idea too. I think that those two solutions are more or less equivalent in terms of cost. I think 2 n-mosfets, 2 optocouplers and additional winding (or small transformer) will cost more or less the same as n-mosfet, p-mosfet and and 4 high power diodes.

I also think the diodes are the reason why JBC drive heater with AC: lower power loss. assuming something like 6A of RMS current and low-drop schottky diodes (Vf=~500mV?) the bridge will dissipate about 6W, which is alot.

It's quite interesting though, that JBC uses 40V mosfets for switches (generic 4470 type, made by Fairchild, Vishay and probably few other companies).
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 23, 2014, 04:08:18 pm
[quote author="poorchava"]Good idea too. I think that those two solutions are more or less equivalent in terms of cost. I think 2 n-mosfets, 2 optocouplers and additional winding (or small transformer) will cost more or less the same as n-mosfet, p-mosfet and and 4 high power diodes.[/quote]

No diodes. Only one PMOS and one NMOS per heater. Nothing more.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: poorchava on April 24, 2014, 08:01:16 am
Ok, now you got me. Can you please post the schematic? How does the circuit look like?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 24, 2014, 10:51:52 am
There's nothing too fancy about the schematics. You have 1 PMOS for + pole and one NMOS for - pole of the heater. Totaly 4 MOSFETs for 2 tips.
The "-" pole is connected to central terminal of the tip (on C245), the "+" pole is connected to middle electrode, and the thermocouple voltage is measured between "-" pole and outer shell with inverting amplifier. This way you can use only one amplifier to measure both tips on the microtweezers. Which one is measured depends on which of the "-" mosfets is on.

There are 4 rectifier diodes after the transformer windings. The dissipation there is not more than 1-2 watts. They are getting warm only if the iron works on high power for a long time - for example if really large copper parts are soldered. And, again - they are getting warm, not hot. Remember - whatever transformer you are using, when the tip with such little resistance is connected, the transformer voltage collapses. For example, I am using 24V 100VA toroidal transformer with 5A fast blow fuse after it. The fuse never blows even when using C210 tips. So, the average current in the tip never exceeds 5A, despite the 2.5 ohm resistance of the tip and 24V transformer. 5A average current means 2.5A average current per diode, which is around 1 - 1.5 watts per diode, when the power to the tip is on 100% of the time, which happens only when the tip heats up initially. After this it rarely works with more than 50% duty, no matter what you are soldering with it.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: poorchava on April 24, 2014, 01:52:12 pm
Aha, ok. You wrote before
[quote author="sparkybg"]No diodes. Only one PMOS and one NMOS per heater. Nothing more.[/quote]

I thought that you are somehow switching two lines of pure unrectified AC with 2 complementary mosfets and no optocouplers and I was like "wtf!?"
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on May 16, 2014, 12:06:29 am
So far so good:
[attachment=0]

At least the OLED is running.  I still have to make the firmware for all the rest.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: randomone on May 16, 2014, 01:32:08 am
Brilliant effort ! Where did the display come from ? It looks fairly specific.

Cam.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on May 16, 2014, 09:12:04 am
Here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-128X64-OLE ... 5adae7dadb (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-128X64-OLED-LCD-LED-Display-Module-white-0-96-/390219684571?pt=US_Laptop_Screens_LCD_Panels&hash=item5adae7dadb)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: poorchava on May 21, 2014, 12:46:59 pm
I'm also still working on my version of this. Sadly, works are slow because I kinda busy (changing job right now).

Anyway I have working prototypes of the 2xN-MOS AC switch, zero crossing detector and power supply. Will post schematics and photos later. I'm hoping to get the opamp board made by the end of next week. :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: diogoc on May 22, 2014, 11:34:24 am
I finally finished my Hakko T12 soldering controller.
Thanks to sparkybg and arhi for all help and sugestions.

Some features of the controller:
- 3310 graphic display
- rotary encoder for easy and fast temperature selection
- sleep mode when the iron is in the stand
- turn off when a long time in sleep mode
- audible indications
- intuitive menu navegation
- percentage visualization of output power
- powered by a compact and lightweight 24V dc laptop power supply
- ambient temperature sensor for a better cold junction compensation
- lcd backlight control
- alarm for very high temperature, turning off immediately the heater
- indication of tip removed to allow hot swapping the tips
- bootloader for easy firmware upgrade via integrated usb port
- usb port and c# software to monitoring all parameters and help to adjust the pid parameters

The controller still need a little adjust in the PID parameters but for me it is almost perfect.
Here are some photos of my soldering station. The case was an old ups :)
https://plus.google.com/photos/10961235 ... 8092650129 (https://plus.google.com/photos/109612351980325355844/albums/6016154278092650129)

I know the pcb is not very pretty. I could have done in smd but I wanted a pcb that was easy for me to do at home and to reuse the components that I already had.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: randomone on May 22, 2014, 12:51:49 pm
Looks good, when do we get to see the dirty details ? Schematic, code etc.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: diogoc on May 22, 2014, 08:33:18 pm
[quote author="randomone"]Looks good, when do we get to see the dirty details ? Schematic, code etc.[/quote]

I added some photos of the internal of the soldering station.
I have edited the post to include the schematics.
Later I will upload the source files.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on May 22, 2014, 11:16:29 pm
Looks good. Pretty clear and simple. :)

Only two things I would do a little different:

 - put 15V zener between source and gate of the MOSFET to protect it from transients. There is very low probability of thansients there, but you never know.

 - 10k to VCC on MCLR is a bit higher. Put 4.7K instead. I think Z1 is obsolete too - there is nothing to protect MCLR from. R7 is also obsolete. Just put a 4.7k resistor from MCLR to VCC and that's all. Never had any problem doing it this way, even when the MCU is pretty close to 8kW soldering SMPS HV stage.

Why dual MCP6V07, instead of single version (MCP6V01 for example)? It is sold at nearly double price.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: diogoc on May 22, 2014, 11:44:51 pm
The 15V zener makes sense.

Z1 and R7 are necessary because I'm using ICD2 to program the pic.
ICD2 minimum vpp voltage is 12V and maximum allowed vpp in this pic is 9V.

I used the MCP6V07 because I already had that component, and it was not worth buying another.
Initially the second opamp was to be used in the ambient temperature sensor, but it was not necessary.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on May 23, 2014, 12:18:50 am
[quote author="diogoc"]
Z1 and R7 are necessary because I'm using ICD2 to program the pic.
ICD2 minimum vpp voltage is 12V and maximum allowed vpp in this pic is 9V.[/quote]

I see.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: diogoc on May 23, 2014, 12:09:41 pm
Source files uploaded in the post. Enjoy :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: BadAd84 on July 01, 2014, 12:09:13 am
Hi,

I see that you say this PCB is designed to fit the BK 3000LF enclosure, but I also seem to see you using the BK2000+

Does this also fit the BK2000+ as I already have one of those and was looking to upgrade my soldering station, but then came across this thread during my search. I would much rather just gut the 2000+ and upgrade it with your controller and buy a new iron.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 01, 2014, 12:27:04 am
[quote author="BadAd84"]Hi,

I see that you say this PCB is designed to fit the BK 3000LF enclosure, but I also seem to see you using the BK2000+

Does this also fit the BK2000+ as I already have one of those and was looking to upgrade my soldering station, but then came across this thread during my search. I would much rather just gut the 2000+ and upgrade it with your controller and buy a new iron.[/quote]

Yes, it fits BK2000+. In fact, I bought BK2000+ only to use it's box. :) I only replaced the back panel with laser cut stainless steel one.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: BadAd84 on July 01, 2014, 08:23:06 am
Excellent.

How are you coming along with the latest revision? I dont mind building the "old one" if the newer one is a long way away, but id rather not order all the bits and then it be replaced immediately.

Also, do you have the layout for the replacement back panel cutout?

Thanks for your great work!
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 01, 2014, 09:17:30 am
[quote author="BadAd84"]Excellent.

How are you coming along with the latest revision? I dont mind building the "old one" if the newer one is a long way away, but id rather not order all the bits and then it be replaced immediately.

Also, do you have the layout for the replacement back panel cutout?

Thanks for your great work![/quote]

Attached is the layout. You only need the top one. I made the other because I am using toroidal transformer, not the original one.

The new version already works, but it will need a month or two to put firmware in order. I cannot tell you exactly when will it be available.

I am on vacation now. I will be back in two days and I will work on it after this.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: BadAd84 on July 01, 2014, 08:18:32 pm
Dont suppose I could talk you into providing the files for the new board?

I can buy the boards and components and build it while waiting for you to sort firmware. Been using this iron for long enough that I am not in a rush and at least id have the board ready to test when you get around to finishing it up.

Cheers for the plate, will get one of those made up too.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 01, 2014, 09:46:53 pm
There will be a new thread for the new version. I just have to be sure everything works before posting anything. It will be there soon.

Also, the back plate for the new version is a bit different than the back plate for this version.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: BadAd84 on July 01, 2014, 11:02:24 pm
Ill hold fire for now then.

Will patiently wait for the new release.

Top work, you have my thanks.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 02, 2014, 10:18:20 am
Be aware that the new version is much more complex and expensive. Yes, it will be able to drive everything I can think of, using resistive heater and resistive or thermocouple sensor, but this has it's price, both in complexity and price of components. However, it still is considerably cheaper than comparable factory made controllers, even not counting the fact that it can drive almost any handpiece on the market.

...and one update on JBC C210/C105 cartridges: they are both connected and driven as a series thermocouple cartridges. There is no other way to read their sensor - it's voltage is always on a terminals with heater between them. I discovered this the hard way - my first thought was that my circuit is not working as it shoud, but after several hours of debugging software and hardware, I just measured again what happens when I heat up the tip with cigarette lighter and found out that this is the case.

On the other hand, C245 can be read both ways - either as series or separate thermocouple between the outer shell (ground) and the center terminal (usually negative supply). When it is read as a separate TC, this gives much more noise free temperature reading, not needing any compensation/waveshaping/noise canceling in software.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: diogoc on July 02, 2014, 03:04:47 pm
Your new controller already drive almost any handpiece, so your next project will be a driver for Metcal tips :P
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 02, 2014, 03:21:06 pm
No, I will never deal with Metcal. My RF skills are next to nothing, and I don't like the concept of someone deciding for me what temperature to use for soldering.

However, they have one big advantage over anything else - the heat is transferred exactly to the parts of the tip where the temperature is below the Curie point of alloy. In other words, when you melt your solder with this tip, all the energy is transferred exactly where it is needed - right next to melted solder on the tip, and the transfer is stopped at the moment the temperature reaches the Curie point. Very elegant concept, but RF at these frequencies is a "black magic", considering EMI and RFI, and the efficiency (in terms of energy consumption) also is far worse, and you cannot control the temperature.

In fact, I found somewhere a DIY project for driving the Metcal cartridges. Look on the net - i am pretty sure you will find it. Also, as far as i remember, there are 2 main groups of Metcal cartridges working on very different frequencies.

My favorite tips are JBC C245, and it will stay like this for a long time. :) They are compact, powerfull, with moderate resistance, and a way to read the temperature without dealing with the mess from heater's power and inductance. And there's many, many shapes available. I've got C210 handpiece and microtweezers mostly for fun. I will rarely use them. I am working with two C245 tips 99.9% of the time.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: BadAd84 on July 02, 2014, 06:11:48 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]Be aware that the new version is much more complex and expensive. Yes, it will be able to drive everything I can think of, using resistive heater and resistive or thermocouple sensor, but this has it's price, both in complexity and price of components. However, it still is considerably cheaper than comparable factory made controllers, even not counting the fact that it can drive almost any handpiece on the market.[/quote]

I was already looking at spending £200+ so your new controller should be fine. Also, I can build it few pieces at a time, so dont need to spend all at once.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: diogoc on July 02, 2014, 06:53:20 pm
I was just kidding. I dont want a Metcal controller.
It is a different functional concept of most soldering drivers. Uses an ingenious way for heating, it's true.
My company has one of these Metcal stations and the few times I used it I was not impressed. It is not so quick to heat up, it have a big and heavy controller, sometimes when changing the tip it is not detected, and offcourse the disadvantage of not being able to choose the temperature.
Probably the temperature stabilization is better, I don't know.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: saye on August 08, 2014, 11:14:10 am
[quote author="electrowolf"] as I'm setting out to modify a fake Hakko 951, want it to be better than the originalt.[/quote]

any progress on modifying 951?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: pupa on October 04, 2014, 08:27:10 pm
Any news on he new design? I would like to built the new design but if it is still far away then I will attempt the current on. Thanks for the excellent work done.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on October 04, 2014, 10:35:05 pm
[quote author="pupa"]Any news on he new design? I would like to built the new design but if it is still far away then I will attempt the current on. Thanks for the excellent work done.[/quote]

It is nearly ready. I only need to make some final touches on the firmware, but I am pretty busy these days, working 12-18h a day.

For sure, It will be finished soon. But, as I mentioned, it is MUCH more complex and more expensive to build.

P.S.: Here is a little test video with Hakko T12, JBC C210 and JBC Microtweezer:
http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f0KSU0PJzc
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Erythros on October 05, 2014, 01:29:58 pm
Looks very nice.

I have been wondering - based on your video where one can see you changing tools - have you given any thoughts to multiple tools controller? (For tweezers and pen handle, for example.)

So far I only have cheap pen handle type soldering station but if I had tweezers i think that it would get pretty old pretty quick to change it by connector.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on October 05, 2014, 01:58:30 pm
I've built two of these, for 2 instruments.

Driving JBC tweezers means driving two tips at the same time, each with it's own temperature regulation.

So, the controller can drive two heaters simultaneously, reading two temperature sensors. It does not care if these two heaters are on the same instrument, or on two different instruments - it will drive them to the same temperature. If you need more, you will have to build more controllers.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Erythros on October 11, 2014, 12:00:48 am
[quote author="sparkybg"]
So, the controller can drive two heaters simultaneously, reading two temperature sensors. It does not care if these two heaters are on the same instrument, or on two different instruments - it will drive them to the same temperature. If you need more, you will have to build more controllers.[/quote]

Well, I will have to look up to it after you publish the plan. (But if it will drive it to the same temperature without support in firmware for multiple tools, sleep function and so on, I think that two instruments would be impractical. Two controllers would be better choice.) My first thought was that as it has separate control and power boards, maybe it would be possible to chain two power ones to one controller board. (Will have to see if it is not bendable.)

On the side note, have you tried cheap Chinese Hakko handles? FM2028 or FX-9501? I have been thinking about ordering one but did not find many reviews. OK, I did find one in russian http://http://www.elenblog.ru/pajalniki-t12-tip-fm-2028-fx-9501-iz-kitaja/, but my russian is very bad.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on October 11, 2014, 02:06:24 am
Chinese FM-2021 is total crap. Get FX-9501 - it is OK. Most part of chinese fake T12 tips are OK too. Noone can beat the price of $3 - $4 per piece.

The controller is made for one instrument. This instrument can have one heater or two separate heaters, each with it's own temperature sensor. For example, JBC microtweezer has two heaters, with two seperate temperature sensors for each. And they are driven like two separate irons, but are driven to a common temperature. I don't have any plans to make dual instrument station. It will not be much cheaper nor much easier to make, compared to making two separate controllers, so I don't see the why I should do this.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Erythros on October 13, 2014, 03:36:57 pm
I did not mean to critise your work. Maybe that is how it came out but that was not the intent. I just saw your video and that got me thinking. That is all.

I have been looking at Aliexpress to buy handle for this project. I have been using something similar to SL-30 but that handle is little too big, I would like more penlike handle. These chinese Hakkos seem like good fit with nice price/feature ratio.

Thanks for your advice.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on October 13, 2014, 04:05:10 pm
[quote author="Erythros"]I did not mean to critise your work. Maybe that is how it came out but that was not the intent. I just saw your video and that got me thinking. That is all.
[/quote]
No problem at all. :) Don't worry.

[quote author="Erythros"]
I have been looking at Aliexpress to buy handle for this project. I have been using something similar to SL-30 but that handle is little too big, I would like more penlike handle. These chinese Hakkos seem like good fit with nice price/feature ratio.

Thanks for your advice.[/quote]

The "el-cheapo" solution is to get chinses handle and T12 tips. Another solution is to get PACE TD100 handle (expensive) and TD100 tips (cheap - around 11EUR per piece).
And my favorite - get JBC C245 tips and handle. These tips are the best I had my hands on. They are expensive, but they last for a long time, and you need only 2-3 of them for 99.9% of work you will do with it.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: randomone on October 23, 2014, 03:01:59 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]
And my favorite - get JBC C245 tips and handle. These tips are the best I had my hands on. They are expensive, but they last for a long time, and you need only 2-3 of them for 99.9% of work you will do with it.[/quote]

Out of interest which 2-3 JBC tips do you find works for you ?

Cam.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on October 23, 2014, 03:27:22 pm
C245064 (I am using this 99% of the time, for small components (0805, 0603, TQFP64 etc),
C245951 (or something similar, for bigger pachages (TO-247 and so on), power connectors etc.)
C245939 (for surface mount power packages(TO263, TO252 and similar, for soldering termal pad to PCB), SMD inductors, etc)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: randomone on October 23, 2014, 07:57:24 pm
Excellent thanks for the info. Including the handle and those three tips that comes to ~£130 here in the UK. Might have to wait a little but it's sure on the cards. Something for the Christmas list :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: pupa on November 15, 2014, 05:13:12 am
[quote author="sparkybg"][quote author="pupa"]Any news on he new design? I would like to built the new design but if it is still far away then I will attempt the current on. Thanks for the excellent work done.[/quote]

It is nearly ready. I only need to make some final touches on the firmware, but I am pretty busy these days, working 12-18h a day.

For sure, It will be finished soon. But, as I mentioned, it is MUCH more complex and more expensive to build.

P.S.: Here is a little test video with Hakko T12, JBC C210 and JBC Microtweezer:
http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f0KSU0PJzc[/quote]


Nice video looks interesting. Any further news? on v2, is it not possible to share what you have on the design already?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on November 15, 2014, 11:34:59 am
It is almost ready. It will be published soon.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: pupa on November 17, 2014, 02:54:23 pm
Waiting in angst. Well done sir!

Do you know of any induction 36V 400KHZ SID design circuits preferably with auto PLL? I have a failed desolder station I want to modify.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on November 17, 2014, 03:39:51 pm
I don't know about 400KHz. I suppose it is for Metcal station.

Here is a thread about 13.56Mhz Metcal:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/d ... rf-supply/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/diy-metcal-13-56-mhz-rf-supply/)

If you are asking about several chinese inductive controllers - i don't know. They have nothing more to give compared to JBC for example, so I've never considered them as a solution for me.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Sjaak on November 17, 2014, 09:22:55 pm
Sparky, I saw your youtube video about the new upcomming design. Where did you find the hakko connector? I tried finding it on ebay, but i couldn't find it. Mind to share a link where you got yours?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on November 17, 2014, 09:39:47 pm
I am not using Hakko connector. I am using plain chinese 8 pin connector.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: randomone on November 17, 2014, 09:49:53 pm
How is the iron identification being done ?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Sjaak on November 18, 2014, 12:00:08 am
[quote author="sparkybg"]I am not using Hakko connector. I am using plain chinese 8 pin connector.[/quote]

I think that is what I ment. The connection in your youtube vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f0KSU0PJzc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f0KSU0PJzc) looks like the connector on this handle http://www.ebay.com/itm/261493580684?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261493580684?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT) would fit
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on November 18, 2014, 12:30:15 am
[quote author="randomone"]How is the iron identification being done ?[/quote]

Resistor in the plug. It can identify as much as 16 instruments this way.

In the future, maybe, it will be able to read 1-wire small 6 pin MCU in the handle of the iron. It will be able to read iron parameters from the handle so, it will be able to work with unlimited number of instruments. It will be able to read the temperature of the handle for better accuracy also, if the mcu in the handle has temperature sensor in it. Small PIC-s do have such sensor in them.

But I don't know if I will have the time to go this far with the firmware.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on November 18, 2014, 12:34:15 am
[quote author="Sjaak"][quote author="sparkybg"]I am not using Hakko connector. I am using plain chinese 8 pin connector.[/quote]

I think that is what I ment. The connection in your youtube vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f0KSU0PJzc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f0KSU0PJzc) looks like the connector on this handle http://www.ebay.com/itm/261493580684?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261493580684?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT) would fit[/quote]

No, it is not. It is different. This is what I use:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2PCS-GX-16mm-8- ... 3cec4fcfe1 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2PCS-GX-16mm-8-pin-Aviation-Male-Female-Plug-Panel-Power-Chassis-Metal-Connector-/261662691297?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cec4fcfe1)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: randomone on November 21, 2014, 08:21:12 pm
Can I ask a calibration question ?

In the previous model (V2) you had a single pot for calibration and calibrated for one iron. On the V5 you have lots of irons belonging to one station, so what is the calibration procedure ?

Cam.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on November 21, 2014, 09:20:39 pm
[quote author="randomone"]Can I ask a calibration question ?

In the previous model (V2) you had a single pot for calibration and calibrated for one iron. On the V5 you have lots of irons belonging to one station, so what is the calibration procedure ?

Cam.[/quote]

There's only one pot for calibration of the amplifier. The other gains are set through the software. The amplifier is with variable gain from 0 to 750 in 256 steps.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Erythros on December 19, 2014, 03:57:53 pm
I have gotten my new chinese copy of Hakko FX-9501 in post today. And it is quite nice device. The grasp is quite better than my current Solomon device. (As I have need to hold it like pen because of trembling hands I am constantly burning my fingertips.) I will have to order some adequate tips for it (chisel, well), but so far so good. Thanks for the advice.

By the way, what kind of transformer are you using? By the fuse I would say something above 120w. Unfortunately I do not have any 24V on my hands, only the 29V 150VA toroid and I am thinking if I could use that (I have never adjusted toroid one, it is quite new in warranty period yet) by not fully opening power transistors. (If I understand it correctly the 24V most irons use is because of safe voltage in dangerous environment area.)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on December 19, 2014, 06:48:33 pm
Get decent 24V transformer. This version of the controller does not have the ability to limit the output power to some value, say 70 watts for T12. And from my personal experience T12 does not handle well voltages above the stated 24v.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on December 19, 2014, 06:51:27 pm
...and, yes, I am using 24V 120W toroid. The fuse is adequate for this.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: luklf01 on December 30, 2014, 11:33:52 pm
hello
@sparkybg i have few questions to you
i did read that topic and saw on yours video BK3000LF station so i guess you have iron tips for it
i use AOYUE 2930 which is equall to BK3000LF it use same tips but maybe electronic circuit a little diffrent
my AOYUE iron tips have near 60 - 70W working excellent and have good design
i do not have psychically any hakko T12 driver or even irons for compare them
you build that T12/T15 controller for use with T12 tips clones
so my question is simply could you compare T12 tips clones to the original AOYUE/BLACKJACK tips ? i saw chinese T12 have just 35W max and poor design
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on December 30, 2014, 11:52:05 pm
The original tips are Hakko, not Aoyue. However, the Aoyue tips are also OK. They are a bit shorter than the original Hakko T12 tips, and the BlackJack handpiece is also a bit shorter. The difference is around 10mm. I don't remember any other differences. This controller drives them both. I have some BJ tips around also.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: luklf01 on December 31, 2014, 12:41:26 am
[quote author="sparkybg"]The original tips are Hakko, not Aoyue. However, the Aoyue tips are also OK. They are a bit shorter than the original Hakko T12 tips, and the BlackJack handpiece is also a bit shorter. The difference is around 10mm. I don't remember any other differences. This controller drives them both. I have some BJ tips around also.[/quote]
i understand
thanks for answer , so quality as i understand is equal  however aoyue spatula tips are even cheaper than chinese T12
is the pid dead time will be the same in aouye/blackjack like actually written in code ?
sorry i do not have oscilloscope to check this but i will try to reconstruct full schematic of aoyue station next month
and will post it here maybe will be usefull also for others
this station use atmega8L i was trying to readout it but it have fuses disabled :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on December 31, 2014, 12:57:38 am
[quote author="luklf01"][quote author="sparkybg"]The original tips are Hakko, not Aoyue. However, the Aoyue tips are also OK. They are a bit shorter than the original Hakko T12 tips, and the BlackJack handpiece is also a bit shorter. The difference is around 10mm. I don't remember any other differences. This controller drives them both. I have some BJ tips around also.[/quote]
i understand
thanks for answer , so quality as i understand is equal  however aoyue spatula tips are even cheaper than chinese T12
is the pid dead time will be the same in aouye/blackjack like actually written in code ?
sorry i do not have oscilloscope to check this but i will try to reconstruct full schematic of aoyue station next month
and will post it here maybe will be usefull also for others
this station use atmega8L i was trying to readout it but it have fuses disabled :)[/quote]

Yes, the original T12, the chinese T12 and the AOYUE T12 are all the same electrically.

Don't bother with schematic unless you are doing it out of curiosity. It works more or less the same way this controller works. And it uses cheaper and inferior components - for example the OPAMP is an old LM with 2mV offset, the DAC is usually 8 bit, the MOSFET is cheaper and so on.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: luklf01 on December 31, 2014, 01:12:30 am
[quote author="sparkybg"][quote author="luklf01"][quote author="sparkybg"]The original tips are Hakko, not Aoyue. However, the Aoyue tips are also OK. They are a bit shorter than the original Hakko T12 tips, and the BlackJack handpiece is also a bit shorter. The difference is around 10mm. I don't remember any other differences. This controller drives them both. I have some BJ tips around also.[/quote]
i understand
thanks for answer , so quality as i understand is equal  however aoyue spatula tips are even cheaper than chinese T12
is the pid dead time will be the same in aouye/blackjack like actually written in code ?
sorry i do not have oscilloscope to check this but i will try to reconstruct full schematic of aoyue station next month
and will post it here maybe will be usefull also for others
this station use atmega8L i was trying to readout it but it have fuses disabled :)[/quote]

Yes, the original T12, the chinese T12 and the AOYUE T12 are all the same electrically.

Don't bother with schematic unless you are doing it out of curiosity. It works more or less the same way this controller works. And it uses cheaper and inferior components - for example the OPAMP is an old LM with 2mV offset, the DAC is usually 8 bit, the MOSFET is cheaper and so on.[/quote]
ok
i will make your  controller soon and will modiffy some functions because  aoyue use integrated motion sensor in hand for standby not like hakko use ir right?
i am frustrated with aouye controller the chinese didnt place 5V beeper to the board also the station didnt save temperature setup before its going to power off its propably due to the mcu flash memory limitation
also i need another second hand from aouye brand it  is 60W and use old style tips and will use them both with that controller is really better than order second aouye station just for another kind of hand
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on December 31, 2014, 01:56:23 am
I don't know what HAKKO are using in their stations for sleep mode. I am using IR, because it is cheap and easy. The alternative is to use micro switch for example, but it is a bit more complicated to make it work as good as IR, because there are moving parts, springs and so on and you must make a mechanical system that works well with your exact handpiece.

BJ also does not save the temperature on turn off. This was one of hte main reasons I made this project. I used ATTini4313 (if I remember well) first - it wat pin compatible with AT89C2051 in the BJ station, but it has an EEPROM in it. And I had to write my own software for it. Than I bought second cheaper station from BJ, expecting more or less the same design inside, but I was wrong. I had to make the whole electronics again - and this project was born.

I am working on a new version now. With PIC32 on it. It can drive almost anything. It will be published soon.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: zaf on January 09, 2015, 01:21:15 am
hey sparky, is the pcb available for sale anywhere?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: protonoob on January 29, 2015, 11:57:45 am
i am looking to buy about 20 pcbs right now, would want to know if there are some available
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: gstorto on February 05, 2015, 03:08:25 pm
Hi sparkybg,

First of all, thanks a lot for having shared this T12 amazing controller. I think it is the only one available as an open-source project.
I am currently designing a PCB layout for my fake hakko enclosure, and have arrived to some questions. I would kindly ask, if possible, for some clarification. If you do not have a lot of time, please just reply to the first question.
The first question concerns a comment on this thread:
"Also, the rectifier diodes on the back PCB are vital for proper functioning of this project." (referring to SR580 replacement, I think).
I intend to replace it by a bridge rectifier (more compact). For a 4A forward current, I have selected the following bridge rectifier:
Vishay BU2508-E3 (cannot link vishay website, new user restrictions).
Well, concerning the forward voltage, at 3A, the vishay one has 0.85V of voltage drop, while SR580 has 0.75V. Not sure if it will be an issue.
About the reverse current, apparently the bridge rectifier has a much lower current leakage for the same reverse voltage. I was wondering if this could be a problem, and if so, how?

The second one concerns the placement of a LL4148 in multiple locations. For the 28V voltage regulation, you seem to have designed a simple series regulator. What intrigues me is the placement of the LL4148 between the emitter and the base of the npn transistor, why?

The same is valid for the reversely polarized LL4148 between the HEATER net and the GND, and the LL4148 between the zener and the MOSFET gate resistance, what is their function?

Thanks,

Gleison.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: protonoob on February 06, 2015, 12:17:01 pm
i have a official hakko i bought and t15 tip was around $70 for spatula version
i got some chinese t12 tips and some didnt work and others stopped working after little use

so i will buy original tips, but i want to switch to jbc in our shop and the tips are much cheaper so will be waiting on this controller so we can UPGRADE
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mveplus on February 22, 2015, 04:09:41 pm
Quote
I am working on a new version now. With PIC32 on it. It can drive almost anything. It will be published soon.

Hi sparkybg, any updates on the progress of Pic32 universal soldering controller?

Just curios, not mean to rush you!

Regards,
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on February 22, 2015, 05:30:18 pm
I have one back PCB to assemble in order to test latest version. Then it will be published. I am a bit more busy last 2-3 months than usual. Sorry for the delay, but that's the way it is.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: protonoob on February 22, 2015, 10:30:55 pm
absolutely no problem, your gift of kindness and knowledge is great and we will be patient

of course sometimes we get excited and turn into kids who cant wait for these amazing things
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: carpin on February 23, 2015, 01:25:01 am
Hi mr sparkybg
I wonder.
Can the controller drive the 4 wire heating element, from this low cost desoldering gun?

Thank you
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on February 23, 2015, 08:20:35 am
It can drive any soldering iron with thermocouple or resistive sensor.

I am just guessing, but I think this desoldering gun is 24V 80W, with thermocouple sensor. So, yes, it can drive it. But you also need a vacuum pump for it to operate. It looks similar to the gun of my ZD915 station:

[attachment=0]
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mveplus on February 23, 2015, 04:02:16 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]It can drive any soldering iron with thermocouple or resistive sensor.

I am just guessing, but I think this desoldering gun is 24V 80W, with thermocouple sensor. So, yes, it can drive it. But you also need a vacuum pump for it to operate. It looks similar to the gun of my ZD915 station:

[attachment=2][/quote]

Thanks for your replay!

Today I was thinking about the same thing - how to drive a desoldering iron with suction! These are useful and can save a lot of time if you work with through-whole or do repair work.

Instead using bigger diaphragm pump, would it work with just electric motor driving smaller diaphragm pump.

Does someone know what is the back(suction) pressure of original diaphragm pump ZD915,Aoyue, Hakko, or Weller?
May be would be possible to use something like this:

The first have 50kpa according to it's specifications:
Pump quick specifications:
[Negative pressure (suction)] - 50kpa
[Positive pressure (blowing)] 90kpa
[Flow] 2L / min

I wonder if would be enough?

Regards,
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: carpin on February 23, 2015, 06:27:19 pm
The      Aoyue 474A++ [Negative pressure (suction)  =  600 mmHg  = 80kpa
Maybe you can use two pumps?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on February 23, 2015, 06:32:34 pm
Honestly, I don't know. That's why I bough a whole ZD915 station. And I must say, it works pretty well for a chinese station. It is unnecessary big, and there are some thing inside I don't like at all, but for it's price of 80-90EUR it is more than acceptable. I was able to desolder all the connectors on an old computer main board pretty easy, without damaging the board at all. I was also able to replace all the capacitors on my Tektronix 2445B oscilloscope without any problem. The alternatives from more respectable manufacturers costs more than 4-5 times more.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: carpin on February 23, 2015, 07:42:32 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]It can drive any soldering iron with thermocouple or resistive sensor.

I am just guessing, but I think this desoldering gun is 24V 80W, with thermocouple sensor. So, yes, it can drive it. But you also need a vacuum pump for it to operate. It looks similar to the gun of my ZD915 station:
[/quote]
Yes 24 volt

Thanks
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mveplus on February 24, 2015, 03:01:56 am
[quote author="carpin"]The      Aoyue 474A++ [Negative pressure (suction)  =  600 mmHg  = 80kpa
Maybe you can use two pumps?[/quote]

Will get a similar gun (if not the same), and a few pumps and do some testing :) thanks!

If this works will be great add-on to the sparkybg universal controller…

Found the same one here… but I used to work with similar desoldering station and was clogging to often… prefer the firs one but it's much more expensive!

No more off-topic sparkybg!

Thanks
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Pier on February 24, 2015, 02:19:23 pm
Hi, i have a 852D+ soldering station (hot air + solder iron) and i have bought a HAKKO FX-9501 handle because i cannot find a spatula-shaped tip for the 852D+ handle.
Is there any way i can make this work on my machine? The HAKKO FX-9501 uses a 8-pin connector but only 5 wires, the 852D+ also has 5 wires, but other colors.
As this is my first post i cannot add any images so i'll try to explain in words how they're connected. I have no idea what kind of thermocouples they use. I'll add some images when i can.

HAKKO FX-9501:

pin 1 black connected to pin 3
pin 2 green
pin 3 black connected to pin 1
pin 4 red
pin 5 -
pin 6 black
pin 7 -
pin 8 -

852D+

pin 1 red
pin 2 orange
pin 3 black
pin 4 green
pin 5 white

At the moment i don't have any money to spare so buying parts to build your driver is out of the question. I do have a shitload of old motherboards/PSU's/other dead electronics i can salvage parts from if that's any use. I also have a Teensy++ 2.0 i bought to mess with my PS3 but no expierience with it so far.

Sorry for being off-topic/hijacking, it just seemed like the perfect place/person to ask my question.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on February 24, 2015, 02:26:42 pm
[quote author="Pier"]
Is there any way i can make this work on my machine?[/quote]

No, there is absolutely no way.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Pier on February 25, 2015, 12:15:51 am
[quote author="sparkybg"][quote author="Pier"]
Is there any way i can make this work on my machine?[/quote]

No, there is absolutely no way.[/quote]
Thanks for the quick reply, didn't expect it to be so fast tbh. ^^

Do you have any idea if ERSA irons could work on your controller?

Also, looking forward to the latest version - looks very promising!
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on February 25, 2015, 08:50:59 am
[quote author="Pier"]
Do you have any idea if ERSA irons could work on your controller?[/quote]

ERSA makes more than one iron. :) Please be more specific.

For this version - i don't know, but the next version can drive anything (and I meen just that - anything) with resistive heater and resistive ot thermocouple sensor. If ERSA irons meet this requirements, then yes, it will be able to drive it.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Pier on February 25, 2015, 03:19:39 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]

ERSA makes more than one iron. :) Please be more specific.[/quote]

Well, my first solder iron was a ERSA Multi-pro (http://http://www.ersa.com/art-0930cd-358-1891.html).
This iron is directly plugged in to mains (230V) so i guess it won't fit on your controller.

I did like how the iron fits in my hand and ERSA's reputation for selling top-quality stuff.
So maybe when i have built your controller (latest version - when you've released it) i was thinking of buying an ERSA iron.
Possibly 0270BDJ (http://http://www.ersa.com/index.php?modul=entry&id=358&sub_id=387&entry_id=1706) and 0450MDJ (http://http://www.ersa.com/index.php?modul=entry&id=387&entry_id=1737).

They are quite expensive (160 euro - 300 euro depending on what model exactly) so this was merely an informational question.

All their irons (for SMT/BGA rework) use a PTC heating element, that's all the info i could find.

I use my iron mostly for (de-)soldering SMT components and BGA-site cleanup (PS3 repair (reball)).
Right now, with the 852D+ i can do everything i need to, i'm just afraid my iron isn't showing accurate temp and/or damages components cause of too high wattages (i've been told the less wattage the safer).

Anyways, this is all wishful thinking, i'll probably never buy an ERSA iron cause they're so expensive.

Thanks however for the replies.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on February 25, 2015, 04:03:33 pm
The new version can drive PTC irons with PTC resistnace from 1 ohm to more than 3 kiloohms resistance. It can drive NTC also, although I don't know if anyone builds irons with PTC.

...and, it is not the power that is damaging the parts. It is the temperature and the time they stay at this temperature. JBC C245 is more than 120W, and I didn't damaged any part with it.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Pier on February 26, 2015, 10:28:28 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]...and, it is not the power that is damaging the parts. It is the temperature and the time they stay at this temperature. JBC C245 is more than 120W, and I didn't damaged any part with it.[/quote]

Well, i'm only playing around with soldering for a couple of years so i'm not gonna argue on that.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on February 26, 2015, 11:34:17 pm
[quote author="Pier"]Well, i'm only playing around with soldering for a couple of years so i'm not gonna argue on that.[/quote]

Find out what the melting temperature of the solder you are using is, then check if the soldering iron controller shows the right temperature when the solder on the tip starts to melt. +/-20 degrees accuracy is acceptable, +/-10 degrees is OK, +/-5 degrees is excellent. 63/37 solder is the best on this - it melts at exactly 183 degrees Celsius. Lead free solder usually melts at 200-220 degrees Celsius, depending on it's composition.

With JBC C245, I am working at 350 degrees celsius most of the time, 300 degrees on smaller parts (0603 and smaller), and 400 degrees if something really massive should be soldered/desoldered. I am using my JBC Microtweezers at the same temperatures.

I didn't damaged any part yet while soldering, and had maybe 2-3 damaged PCBs while desoldering, but  the damaged PCBs always were somewhat damaged prior to my desoldering, or with really poor quality. When I use hot air for desoldering, I am using small diameter tip, 350-400 degrees, and circular moves on and around the part I wish to desolder. Again, I never had a problems with this. You just have to wait for the part to become hot enough before you pull it out of his place. If you pull it too early, you can damage the PCB. If you pull it too late, you can damage the part itself, and the parts around it will start to desolder.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Cupravox on February 28, 2015, 09:27:04 am
Hi sparkybg,

 I looked on the project and I really like it.
 I have in my inventory good weller WSP80 and a lot of tips. It has large power (80W). Resistance sensor PTC about 22.0 ohms at about 22C. Is it possible to control wsp80 to your very nice controller?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on February 28, 2015, 09:48:48 am
With next version, it will be possible. It it tested on HAKKO FX8801 which is electrically similar - 65W and PTC sensor.

The only thing you should know is the resistance ft the PTC at several different temperatures in order to set up the coefficients in the firmware. It is not so hard to do, but it is more or less time consuming.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on March 01, 2015, 05:21:29 pm
is there some way to buy PCB to old/new project ?

I buy hakko FX9501. Maybe i try make controller myself. I think about use MSP430I2041 because it has four 24BIT Sigma-Delta ADC or try ADS1118.  What you say is it good idea to try ? Are you use in our code some discrete signal filters for ADC samples ?

thanks
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 01, 2015, 05:56:39 pm
My only comment is - you don't need anything more than 10bit. In practice it won't give you anything. 10 bit is half degree resolution, and you wont get less than +/-2 degrees accuracy out of any soldering iron no matter how many bits you are using. And even +/- 2 degrees is a bit optimistic.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: randomone on March 10, 2015, 08:02:45 pm
[quote author="carpin"]Hi mr sparkybg
I wonder.
Can the controller drive the 4 wire heating element, from this low cost desoldering gun?

Thank you[/quote]

Hi Carpin,

Any chance you can measure the heater resistance of the B1002A you have ? It would come in handy for a project i'm working on.

Thanks.
Cam.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: carpin on March 17, 2015, 02:18:14 am
Heating element 8.3 ohm at connector
And thermocouple 1 ohm
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: randomone on March 17, 2015, 08:09:12 pm
[quote author="carpin"]Heating element 8.3 ohm at connector
And thermocouple 1 ohm[/quote]

Excellent, thanks for that !
Cam.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: dekidiver on March 18, 2015, 10:41:14 am
Very nice project.

I'm interested to build one for me.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on March 19, 2015, 10:08:42 am
WoW! what a cool project!
I'm going to make this project for myself. I have a question.
Can I use this for the project? Should I change any part of the project for this Soldering Handle?

Thank you sooo much for your great project!
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on March 19, 2015, 10:13:47 am
I mean a HAKKO FM-2027/FM-2028
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on March 19, 2015, 11:01:14 am
No, you don't have to change anything.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: jonodaman on April 02, 2015, 04:51:54 am
Hey Sparkybg any news on the new version i would really like to build a couple of these i have always wanted a jbc station but could not justify the cost and your controller looks awesome

Thanks
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 02, 2015, 09:34:59 am
It is really close to publication. May be a week or two.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: jonodaman on April 03, 2015, 12:30:41 am
Thanks you must of put a tremendous amount of work into this.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: randomone on April 03, 2015, 01:08:18 am
I have just recently got myself a JBC iron, and combined with sparkybg's work it is simply awesome. Like you I would never have bought one otherwise. I have used a soldering iron since I was too young to remember how old I was but I have never used anything close to the JBC, utterly stunning, it laughs at ground planes, and the choice of tips makes your knees weak.

It's as good a hit as the first scope I owned way back when I was at school (which I still own).  Remember that light coming on ?

<soapbox> I do this as a hobby, and even as a hobby there is no other tool you use more than a soldering iron yet spend so little on usually, now I have used a JBC I would have paid the 400 Euro they charge long ago if only I had known just how good they are. </soapbox>

Do the deed and treat yourself to a JBC handle and a PCB for V5 of sparkybg's work, you will not regret it !


[quote author="jonodaman"]Hey Sparkybg any news on the new version i would really like to build a couple of these i have always wanted a jbc station but could not justify the cost and your controller looks awesome

Thanks[/quote]
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: jonodaman on April 08, 2015, 01:41:15 am
[quote author="randomone"]I have just recently got myself a JBC iron, and combined with sparkybg's work it is simply awesome. Like you I would never have bought one otherwise. I have used a soldering iron since I was too young to remember how old I was but I have never used anything close to the JBC, utterly stunning, it laughs at ground planes, and the choice of tips makes your knees weak.

It's as good a hit as the first scope I owned way back when I was at school (which I still own).  Remember that light coming on ?

<soapbox> I do this as a hobby, and even as a hobby there is no other tool you use more than a soldering iron yet spend so little on usually, now I have used a JBC I would have paid the 400 Euro they charge long ago if only I had known just how good they are. </soapbox>

Do the deed and treat yourself to a JBC handle and a PCB for V5 of sparkybg's work, you will not regret it !


[quote author="jonodaman"]Hey Sparkybg any news on the new version i would really like to build a couple of these i have always wanted a jbc station but could not justify the cost and your controller looks awesome

Thanks[/quote][/quote]

Hey i definitely will be building at least one of these controllers
did you get the JBC T245-A iron?

Thanks
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: randomone on April 08, 2015, 02:38:00 am
Yes a T245-A handle and two of the tips recommended by sparkybg, the C245-951, good for big work, connectors etc. into GND planes, and C245-064 good for most other stuff.

Cam.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on April 09, 2015, 01:08:52 pm
I'm going to make my station based on diogoc's station that is meantioned in this post:

http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=5264&start=180#p58264

but I have several question.
1- you said that you used a 24V dc laptop power supply but how much current? Is 3A enough?(70/24~3A)
2- My MCU is a 3.3v (unlike your MCU that is a 5v) then I have a problem. there is no problem for transistors (I can bias them) but I don't know how and what should I chenge for Op-Amps?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: diogoc on April 09, 2015, 08:22:06 pm
[quote author="Ryan111"]1- you said that you used a 24V dc laptop power supply but how much current? Is 3A enough?(70/24~3A)
[/quote]
I used a 90W adapter. The T12 tips are 70W, but it is better to give some margin.

[quote author="Ryan111"]2- My MCU is a 3.3v (unlike your MCU that is a 5v) then I have a problem. there is no problem for transistors (I can bias them) but I don't know how and what should I chenge for Op-Amps?[/quote]
You can use 3.3V to drive the transistors without problem, you don't have to change anything or at least reduce a little the R11.
In the op-amp you only have to adjust de gain (P1) to ensure that the output voltage is always below than 3.3V
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on April 13, 2015, 03:55:49 pm
[quote author="diogoc"][quote author="Ryan111"]1- you said that you used a 24V dc laptop power supply but how much current? Is 3A enough?(70/24~3A)
[/quote]
I used a 90W adapter. The T12 tips are 70W, but it is better to give some margin.

[quote author="Ryan111"]2- My MCU is a 3.3v (unlike your MCU that is a 5v) then I have a problem. there is no problem for transistors (I can bias them) but I don't know how and what should I chenge for Op-Amps?[/quote]
You can use 3.3V to drive the transistors without problem, you don't have to change anything or at least reduce a little the R11.
In the op-amp you only have to adjust de gain (P1) to ensure that the output voltage is always below than 3.3V[/quote]
Thanks for answer and sorry for delay.
unfortunately Microchip Op-Amps ain't available in my country(especially auto-zero). I'm searching to find a suitable Op-Amp for this job. the sad point about me is that I'm not very good familiar with Op-Amps. due to my MCU(that is a 3v3) and 9mV output from iron I think I have to find an Op-Amp with around 366 gain(am I right?). currently I have these Op-Amp at home: LM318N, OP07CP, CA3130E, LM324N
could I figure out this problem by one of this Op-Amps? how about an AD620? what type of Op-Amps are suitable for this job? what factors should I consider for choosing an Op-Amp?

sorry for simple questions.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: diogoc on April 14, 2015, 11:35:19 am
It depends of the reference voltage that you use for the ADC, but if you use the 3.3V supply the gain should be around that.

The best op-amp I think is the AD620, but you can use the OP07.
You should use an op-amp with low offset voltage and temperature drift.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 14, 2015, 11:51:32 am
AD620 has 10 times bigger offset voltage and is 10 times more expensive. It is pointless to use it in this application - it won't give you anything more.

Look for "auto-zeroing" and "rail to rail input and putput" opamps. There are several other manufacturers.

If fact, the microchip device has quite unique input common move voltage rating - it can go upto 200mV below ground.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on April 14, 2015, 08:44:23 pm
Thnaks dear diogoc and sparkybg
What's your opinion about LM358? and a circuit like in this page:

http://www.bristolwatch.com/ele/thermal ... lifier.htm (http://www.bristolwatch.com/ele/thermalcouple_amplifier.htm)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: diogoc on April 14, 2015, 09:22:46 pm
Forget the LM358 :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 14, 2015, 11:33:29 pm
LM358 has typical input offset voltage of 2mV (max 6mV). If gain of 300 is used, this is 0.6 volts on the output, and if 3.0V ADC reference is used, this is 102 degrees typical offset (max 300 degrees) on the ADC. Moreover, this amplifier is not Rail to Rail. Far from it. Vast majority of chinese soldering controllers are using LM358, and vast majority of these controllers are good for nothing, if you want reasonable accuracy of their temperature readings.

LM358 is archaic low cost general purpose amplifier. Nothing more, nothing less. The only thing that separates it form other opamps in it's price range is that it's negative common mode voltage includes the negative power supply.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on April 16, 2015, 09:11:11 am
Uh-hha! I think I hit the jackpot! :) Ha-Ha-Ha! it's AD8572ARZ (http://http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/AD8571_8572_8574.pdf)!
alone "rail to rail" "auto zero" Op-Amp that is availble to me. please ignore the price. if it's ok for this job then just show me green light!(I mean tell me to start to design my circuit by this AD8572ARZ)
Personally I think it's ok and there is no problem. Am I right? please check out the datasheet.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 16, 2015, 10:05:27 am
Yes, this opamp should be OK. In fact, maybe even better than MCP6Vxx.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Sjaak on April 16, 2015, 11:37:30 am
I made also a T12 controller. I'm using a LM358 with a large gain but it still regulates quite ok. The measured temperature is fluctuating a bit +- 2 degree C. I think that is fine as it wont matter much for a soldering iron. I always can smooth it out in software if the user wants :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 16, 2015, 12:04:00 pm
[quote author="Sjaak"]I made also a T12 controller. I'm using a LM358 with a large gain but it still regulates quite ok. The measured temperature is fluctuating a bit +- 2 degree C. I think that is fine as it wont matter much for a soldering iron. I always can smooth it out in software if the user wants :)[/quote]

Is it equally OK on 200 and on 450 degrees? Is it equally OK on 10 degrees room temperature and 30 degrees room temperature? ;)

If you try to make a controller for JBC C210, the gain must be around 700. With typical opamp offset of 2mV, this is 1.4 volts, and on 3V ADC this is 240 degrees Celsius. This part is not suitable for this. Yes, sometimes it may work, but you don't have any guarantee it will in your next project, or if you replace one LM358 with another LM358, on the same PCB.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on April 16, 2015, 12:08:02 pm
Good!
For supply I want to use this (http://http://www.amazon.com/Bargz-Electronics-Tools-Accessories-Switching/dp/B00SVLK5PU/ref=sr_1_19?s=lamps-light&ie=UTF8&qid=1429174716&sr=1-19&keywords=switching+power+24v) and for 5v parts I want to use this buck module (http://http://www.amazon.com/RioRand-LM2596-Converter-1-23V-30V-1Pcs-LM2596/dp/B008BHAOQO) and for 3v3 (actually for MCU) just use a AMS1117 (http://http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/49118/ADMOS/AMS1117/126/1/AMS1117.html). AMS1117 can get 5v from buck module. is everything ok, so far?

ok let's talk about AD8572ARZ.
if you take a look in the datasheet, you will see this in page 29:

(http://http://s0.uploads.im/hWHIB.jpg)

In your opinion is this circuit good for soldering iron?(in other word for T12 tips) also I think I have to change somethings for my MCU(because it's a 3v3 MCU and probably should change the gain of the Op-Amp).
in page 19, something about overshoot has been brought up (CAPACITIVE LOAD DRIVE) and also POWER-UP BEHAVIOR:

(http://http://s0.uploads.im/ujEgX.jpg)

This is my ADC characteristics:

(http://http://s0.uploads.im/j3dYV.jpg)

Then I think there is not any worry about overshoot(because of the capacitance of the ADC. also the capacitance of each I/O pin of my MCU is 5pf. I cannot measure the capacitance of track on PCB now ). although I guss I have to make a delay before each reading the Op-Amp output (because the clock rate of my MCU(72MHz) and the speed of the ADC and settle time for the Op-Amp ).The ADC on my MCU is a 12bit :)  look at this:

(http://http://s0.uploads.im/uL4MO.jpg)

1 million sample per second! and operat in 14MHz! ha ha!
please clear me if something isn't correct.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Sjaak on April 16, 2015, 12:52:17 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"][quote author="Sjaak"]I made also a T12 controller. I'm using a LM358 with a large gain but it still regulates quite ok. The measured temperature is fluctuating a bit +- 2 degree C. I think that is fine as it wont matter much for a soldering iron. I always can smooth it out in software if the user wants :)[/quote]

Is it equally OK on 200 and on 450 degrees? Is it equally OK on 10 degrees room temperature and 30 degrees room temperature? ;)

If you try to make a controller for JBC C210, the gain must be around 700. With typical opamp offset of 2mV, this is 1.4 volts, and on 3V ADC this is 240 degrees Celsius. This part is not suitable for this. Yes, sometimes it may work, but you don't have any guarantee it will in your next project, or if you replace one LM358 with another LM358, on the same PCB.[/quote]

I'm just controlling a T12 tip and dont have need for JBC-C210. I tested the controller on multiple PCBs (multiple revisions of it, multiple builds) with scavenged, beat up and also brandspankingshinynew LM358's. As far as I can see not much difference between the controller. I also tested it with room temperatures of below 20 and  near 30. The iron (also multiple tips) works the same and the solder experience is the same (except the experience of the room temperature).

As said it is just a soldering iron...
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 16, 2015, 03:59:22 pm
[quote author="Ryan111"]...you will see this...[/quote]

Images are not visible for me.

[quote author="Ryan111"]
Then I think there is not any worry about overshoot(because of the capacitance of the ADC. also the capacitance of each I/O pin of my MCU is 5pf. I cannot measure the capacitance of track on PCB now ). although I guss I have to make a delay before each reading the Op-Amp output (because the clock rate of my MCU(72MHz) and the speed of the ADC and settle time for the Op-Amp ).The ADC on my MCU is a 12bit :)  look at this:

1 million sample per second! and operat in 14MHz! ha ha!
please clear me if something isn't correct.[/quote]

1. You don't need a megasamle ADC reading.
2. You will have to wait a little (500uS foe example) after you stop the power to the iron before you read the voltage. There is inductive peak after you turn the power off. The heater has inductance.
3. You don't have to worry about picofarads. Controling the iron is pretty slow process. On my new version, I am using 10 nanofarad caps to filter the signal and it is still fast enough to stabilize the opamp output in 150 micriseconds.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 16, 2015, 04:07:28 pm
[quote author="Sjaak"]
I'm just controlling a T12 tip and dont have need for JBC-C210. I tested the controller on multiple PCBs (multiple revisions of it, multiple builds) with scavenged, beat up and also brandspankingshinynew LM358's. As far as I can see not much difference between the controller. I also tested it with room temperatures of below 20 and  near 30. The iron (also multiple tips) works the same and the solder experience is the same (except the experience of the room temperature).

As said it is just a soldering iron...[/quote]

The controller is OK for me if it melts 63/37 solder when showing 185 degrees and does not melt it when showing 180, and melts pure lead showing 330 degrees and not malting it showing 325. LM358 is incapable of doing this.

And, yes, it is just a soldering iron. The cost of some are thousands, the cost of others tens of dolars. And there are differentce between them, don't you think?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on April 16, 2015, 07:44:14 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]Images are not visible for me.[/quote]
Ok, I changed the server of the images. please check out my last post, again.
[quote author="sparkybg"]
1. You don't need a megasamle ADC reading.
2. You will have to wait a little (500uS foe example) after you stop the power to the iron before you read the voltage. There is inductive peak after you turn the power off. The heater has inductance.
3. You don't have to worry about picofarads. Controling the iron is pretty slow process. On my new version, I am using 10 nanofarad caps to filter the signal and it is still fast enough to stabilize the opamp output in 150 micriseconds.[/quote]
Thanks
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 16, 2015, 10:14:05 pm
You don't need that complex amplifier schematic, because you don't need 0.2 degrees accuracy. Plain non inverting amplifier is more than enough. You can add the room temperature in firmware.

You cannot perform cold junction compensation on the controller's end, because the cold junction is not there, so it is pointless to do it this way. The best thing you can do is to make an differential instrumentation amplifier, but it will need slightly negative power supply.

Why are you using 5V and 3.3V devices? Use 3.3V for all. My new version uses 3.3V for everything without any problems.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on April 18, 2015, 07:44:49 pm
Oh, unfortunately the vendor told me that AD8572ARZ is out of stock. :( how sad!
I think I have to make up this station with another Op-Amp. How about one of these: OP37 (http://http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/49054/AD/OP37/18/1/OP37.html), ICL7650S (http://http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/67435/INTERSIL/ICL7650S/322/1/ICL7650S.html), OP177FPZ (http://http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/174960/AD/OP177FPZ/25/1/OP177FPZ.html), OPA2340 (http://http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/56770/BURR-BROWN/OPA2340/501/1/OPA2340.html)(this is a rail to tail I/O) which one of these can help me to get a reasonable accuracy? which one would be better?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 19, 2015, 11:08:54 am
ICL7650 is OK.
OP177F is somehow OK - 25uV offset will give you around 3 degrees error on gain 350.
OP37A is more or less the same as OP177F, but has higher bandwidth, so you will have to limit it.

OP2340 is no good - it has too big offset voltage.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: carpin on April 21, 2015, 04:18:13 am
[quote author="Ryan111"]Oh, unfortunately the vendor told me that AD8572ARZ is out of stock. :( how sad!
[/quote]

Mouser
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Ana ... zl1g%3D%3D (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Analog-Devices/AD8572ARZ/?qs=%2FtpEQrCGXCxLyblye3zl1g%3D%3D)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 21, 2015, 09:03:00 am
[quote author="carpin"][quote author="Ryan111"]Oh, unfortunately the vendor told me that AD8572ARZ is out of stock. :( how sad!
[/quote]

Mouser
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Ana ... zl1g%3D%3D (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Analog-Devices/AD8572ARZ/?qs=%2FtpEQrCGXCxLyblye3zl1g%3D%3D)[/quote]

MCP6V01/02/03/06/.... are available there also. But it seems he cannot buy from there.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on April 21, 2015, 03:10:22 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]MCP6V01/02/03/06/.... are available there also. But it seems he cannot buy from there.[/quote] Thanks sparkybg,
Exactly!
Also I can order it from china but this approach would be too expensive for me or at least ordering a component isn't wisely.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 21, 2015, 03:39:11 pm
Where are you from? It is a bit strange - Mouser, Digikey, Farnell, TME, Arrow etc, are sending everything everywhere. And in most countries in europe, they usually have local representatives.

Is there any global supplier available at you place?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on April 21, 2015, 03:45:00 pm
For Mouser, Digikey etc the shippingcost is like $30, even for an small component.
Farnell is cheaper, but sells only to companies (at least here in Norway)

I typically use Farnell, both the MCP6V0x and the AD8752xx are available there.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 21, 2015, 04:01:55 pm
[quote author="neslekkim"]For Mouser, Digikey etc the shippingcost is like $30, even for an small component.
Farnell is cheaper, but sells only to companies (at least here in Norway)

I typically use Farnell, both the MCP6V0x and the AD8752xx are available there.[/quote]

Take a look at TME. Their shipping cost to Bulgaria is 7EUR. Maybe they ship cheap to Norway too.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on April 21, 2015, 05:12:40 pm
Ah, I thought they only sold equipement, found the parts there also, great :)
I guess I will wait until pcb's and such are finished/available for partbuying
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on April 21, 2015, 07:47:03 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]Where are you from? It is a bit strange - Mouser, Digikey, Farnell, TME, Arrow etc, are sending everything everywhere. And in most countries in europe, they usually have local representatives.

Is there any global supplier available at you place?[/quote]
The land of the Cyrus the Great (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great)(I mean Iran :) )
Not for all countries! for instance the Digikey even blocked its website for us. because of sanctions (wink). on the other hand, useing the card of a financial services corporation like MasterCard isn't simple in my country(again blocking). nowadays, ordering from china is a common way, here (we can order some components from aliexperess and etc via some trick :) ). I don't know when we can get rid of these F**king sanctions.
anyway, ICL7650 is on the way! :) I have ordered it from a local market.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on April 25, 2015, 11:40:51 am
check INA333 - precision instrumentation amplifier, is relative cheap (4$ ppcs) and parameters looks great.I want to use them to my regulator but i dont know when i finish them. For power supply i want try use switching current source - simple buck regulator with TPS2832 driver. I never use this method so i am courious how it will works.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 25, 2015, 07:20:22 pm
[quote author="mrjoda"]check INA333 - precision instrumentation amplifier, is relative cheap (4$ ppcs) and parameters looks great.[/quote]
You will need positive and negative power supply to use this. The input does not include negative supply/ground.

Also, 25uV offset is not that low when you use gains of 300 and up.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on April 25, 2015, 07:53:31 pm
yes i know about dual supply. I am not sure about that 25uV, datasheet is litle bit confusing because in main is written 25uV G>200, in table are 10-25uV per Gain and population graph shows offset about 5uV max...i want try it. Engineering is my hobby so... maybe i build your controller, i dont know ;)

edit :

very very nice amplifier have Linear, for example LTC2050 /2054 (high end) or 1052 (chopper) or low cost LTC1050.

EDIT 2: i do some research, in fact OP07 will be enought for this. You can simply measure offset and provide active correction in SW. I suspect using 12bit ADC with 1,25Vref (+/- 300uV per LSB) and opamp offset should be about 8,5mV. So... with mosfet you can short input to ground and then you measure offset... simply and cheap way and you can use cheap and easily avaible opamp. But, you get slightly less acurate temperature so it is disadvantage of this method but i think it will be OK for soldering iron.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on May 01, 2015, 03:10:43 pm
sparkybg in the first post of the topic has been said:
Quote
T12 have thermocouple in series with the heater with a voltage of around 9mV at 450 degrees celsius...
That's odd to me. because as you know, the temperature of boil water is 100c. I put the tip of the soldering iron in boil water and measured the output. that was 7mv. then if we assume that the output of the tip is linear thus the output for 450c should be (450*7)/100=31.5mv. Am I wrong?

Another question:
What's the usage of the resistor in the blue circle and that part in the red square?

(http://http://img4.uplood.fr/free/qexi_untitled.png)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on May 01, 2015, 07:09:11 pm
On my new version, I am using gain of 334 for a 3.0V ADC. So I am pretty positive T12 gives 9mV at 512 degrees Celsius.

If you have never used this tip, it is normal for it to show erratic TC voltages. It starts to show real values after you heat it up to 350-400 degrees for the first time and keep it there doe 20-30 seconds. Maybe half of my tips behaved this way when used for the first time.

On the schematic, R16 is pull-up resistor used to detect if there is not tip in the handle, C12 is filtering capacitor, R17 is current limiting resistor for the protection diodes after it - they will not survive 30 volts on the "HEATER+" terminal if there is not a resistor there to limit the current.

By the way, I don't know where you got this schematic from, bit it definitely is not my schematic. My schematic is attached to the first post of this thread, and has different values and no capacitor there.

Here it is:
[attachment=0]
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on May 01, 2015, 07:23:32 pm
[quote author="mrjoda"]12bit ADC with 1,25Vref (+/- 300uV per LSB)[/quote]

Use as high Vref as possible. I don't know what MCU are you using, but 1.25V is too low for my taste - signal to noise ratio will be worse, the ADC comparators error will be bigger, and you will end up using a 12 bit ADC with precision no better than 8 bit.

Use as high as possible Vref for the ADC. I am using 4.096 volts for this project and 3.0 volts on my next version. And even comparing 3.0 to 4.096Vref gives pretty visible difference.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on May 01, 2015, 07:27:30 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]...If you have never used this tip, it is normal for it to show erratic TC voltages. It starts to show real values after you heat it up to 350-400 degrees for the first time and keep it there doe 20-30 seconds. Maybe half of my tips behaved this way when used for the first time...[/quote]
How can I figure this problem out? Can I connect the tip dirctly to 24v for 20 or 30 to solve this problem?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on May 01, 2015, 07:37:07 pm
[quote author="Ryan111"]
How can I figure this problem out? Can I connect the tip dirctly to 24v for 20 or 30 to solve this problem?[/quote]

It is not a problem - some tips just behave this way when used for the first time.

Build your controller for 9mV/512 degrees, set the temperature to 350 degrees, leave it there for 20-30 seconds, and everything will come to normal.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on May 01, 2015, 08:16:04 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]It is not a problem - some tips just behave this way when used for the first time.

Build your controller for 9mV/512 degrees, set the temperature to 350 degrees, leave it there for 20-30 seconds, and everything will come to normal.[/quote]
Ok, Thanks.
I'm just worry for one thing. as you know my Op-Amp is ICL7650. I supply it to 8 and or 9v. with this gain and supply I afraid that it would hurt the ADC input. because of overload of Op-Amp(in fact, inductance of heater). or when heater is turned on and there is 24v on the input of Op-Amp, it would hurt the input ADC. Can both 1N4148 avoid such a problems?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on May 01, 2015, 08:26:03 pm
[quote author="Ryan111"]
I'm just worry for one thing. as you know my Op-Amp is ICL7650. I supply it to 8 and or 9v. with this gain and supply I afraid that it would hurt the ADC input. because of overload of Op-Amp(in fact, inductance of heater). or when heater is turned on and there is 24v on the input of Op-Amp, it would hurt the input ADC. Can both 1N4148 avoid such a problems?[/quote]

1N4148 protects the input of the opamp. On the heater, there is 1N4007 connected in backwards in order to defeat the negative inductive peak, there is also a 10nF capacitor in parallel to 1N4007.

As for the ADC input, change the power supply of the opamp to +/-3.3V, connect 2K resistor in series of the opamp output, and then put single 1N4148 connected in backwards (i.e. anode to ground and cathode to ADC input) and you won't have any problems with the ADC, if it can accept 3.3V on it's input.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Sjaak on May 05, 2015, 12:01:32 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"][quote author="Sjaak"]
I'm just controlling a T12 tip and dont have need for JBC-C210. I tested the controller on multiple PCBs (multiple revisions of it, multiple builds) with scavenged, beat up and also brandspankingshinynew LM358's. As far as I can see not much difference between the controller. I also tested it with room temperatures of below 20 and  near 30. The iron (also multiple tips) works the same and the solder experience is the same (except the experience of the room temperature).

As said it is just a soldering iron...[/quote]

The controller is OK for me if it melts 63/37 solder when showing 185 degrees and does not melt it when showing 180, and melts pure lead showing 330 degrees and not malting it showing 325. LM358 is incapable of doing this.

And, yes, it is just a soldering iron. The cost of some are thousands, the cost of others tens of dolars. And there are differentce between them, don't you think?[/quote]

I got myself a hakko FG-100 and tested the setup. I'm using a T12-K soldertip for all test. I'm sorry to tell you it is pretty bang on (+-2%). Here are the pictures:

[attachment=0]
[attachment=1]

I removed the LM358 from the PCB(which was a used one from National semi) and replaced it by a new one I got from mouser (ON semiconductor) and the results were nearly the same (around +-2%) even without recalibrating.

Before the test I calibrated the iron with the Hakko FG-100 at around 185 degrees (approx. meltingpoint of 60/40 solder). If you lack the Hakko tester it can be done with lead-solder, which is a bit harder to do.

I agree there is a cost and quality difference between a 1000$ and a radioshack $10 soldering iron. My point was that you dont need a .001% precise temperature indicator on a soldering iron for hobbiest use (cant even think of a proffesional use for that). The aim for this controller is hobbiest use and a workable soldering iron. QED.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on May 05, 2015, 12:18:29 pm
[quote author="Sjaak"]
I removed the LM358 from the PCB(which was a used one from National semi) and replaced it by a new one I got from mouser (ON semiconductor) and the results were nearly the same (around +-2%) even without recalibrating.

Before the test I calibrated the iron with the Hakko FG-100 at around 185 degrees (approx. meltingpoint of 60/40 solder). If you lack the Hakko tester it can be done with lead-solder, which is a bit harder to do.

I agree there is a cost and quality difference between a 1000$ and a radioshack $10 soldering iron. My point was that you dont need a .001% precise temperature indicator on a soldering iron for hobbiest use (cant even think of a proffesional use for that). The aim for this controller is hobbiest use and a workable soldering iron. QED.[/quote]

Now, ask yourself, reading the datasheet of LM358, will it be the same after a month? After a year? In winter and summer? Will it be the same if you build 100 devices with opamps from several batches?

I do have 3 chinese controllers. I do know what they can and cannot do.

I just prefer to use components that are OK by specification, for the task I am using them. LM358 is not OK my definition, and I don't like the performance of my units to depend on the batch, age and so on.
 LM358 is not. Yes, you can trimm it using gain and offset correction but it still is not OK by definition.

P.S.: I do have a chinese copy FG100 also - total crap. :) I am using 63/37(eutectic, 183 degrees) solder and pure lead (eutectic, 327.4 degrees) for  calibration for a long time already. I even considered buying pure Zink (eutectic, 419.5 degrees), but I don't know if it can be used on soldering iron tip without damaging it.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on May 05, 2015, 02:26:28 pm
respond to Sjaak last sentence

precise temperature indicator is one part of problem i dont think the most important. Most important is HOW FAST you can respond to changing temperature of iron and how stable you can hold it. For example, you have 280°C tip temperature, you put it at copper and temperature drop will be probably 100°C (at shitty controller and slow regulator). JBC have temperature drop about 20°C (datasheet info.). So, in best way,you must read temperature to 0,1°C or better, then you get accurate indication of changing temperature on tip and you can fast respond to this and put more (or less) power to the tip. This tips are quite good and can transfer lot of power so speed is important.

this topick is juicy to information :)


sparkybg : i use msp430F5310 (1,8-3V ultra low power), 1,25Vref is one of build reference, but you have right, less Vref means less signal/noise ratio (i dont realize it).I was looking at lowes LSB voltage and i forgot check SNR :/ . Max Vref is supply, but i dont think it will be so stable, i must try it. Do you have in your controller some ADC nonlinearity calibration ? I try MSP a few times and it was necessary. I dont work with PIC or Atmel (MSP only).


last question : why are u using this stupid little display, they are not cheap and they are small. I like much 7 segment display for this, best visibility and brightness and easy controll. In my project i want to use REG010016AYPP5N0 from RAYSTAR OPTRONICS. Check professional soldering stations, they dont have microscopic display
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Sjaak on May 05, 2015, 11:10:40 pm
Dont think you need 0.1C resolution at those temperatures in order to know if your tip is cooled a bit down, especially if you use something with a large thermal mass like a copperplate :). The magic and speed happens in the controlloop. So a fast ADC and thight coding (fast code) is key.

I can get those oleds for as little as 1$/pc wholesale, so cost is not much an issue and they can show a lot more info then a couple of 7 segments display. Brightness is quite ok and the characters are nicer to read.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on May 05, 2015, 11:42:48 pm
[quote author="mrjoda"]
sparkybg : i use msp430F5310 (1,8-3V ultra low power), 1,25Vref is one of build reference, but you have right, less Vref means less signal/noise ratio (i dont realize it).I was looking at lowes LSB voltage and i forgot check SNR :/ . Max Vref is supply, but i dont think it will be so stable, i must try it. Do you have in your controller some ADC nonlinearity calibration ? I try MSP a few times and it was necessary. I dont work with PIC or Atmel (MSP only).
[/quote]
MSP430F5310 is 1.8 - 3.6V. You can power it with 3.3V and use either internal 2.5V ot external 3.0V reference. I am using external 3.0V in the latest version.

[quote author="mrjoda"]
last question : why are u using this stupid little display, they are not cheap and they are small. I like much 7 segment display for this, best visibility and brightness and easy controll. In my project i want to use REG010016AYPP5N0 from RAYSTAR OPTRONICS. Check professional soldering stations, they dont have microscopic display[/quote]

This stupid little display is 128x64 SPI OLED display, and more or less compatible displays are available from 0.96 upto 2.5 and even 3.0 inches. The readability is even better than 7 segment, and you can build much richer user interface with graphical display, even this small. You must see it in the real life, working, and maybe you will be surprised. I had the same concerns, and even when first display arrived and I saw it with my eyes, my concerns became even bigger. But I was wrong - it works, and works great indeed.

I am using 0.96 inch because it is a perfect match for my enclosure - I did not had to make any modifications to it other than drilling a hole for the USB port on the front panel.

Professional soldering stations are using dedicated enclosures. If I design my own enclosure, I know what to use, believe me. :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on May 05, 2015, 11:52:05 pm
[quote author="Sjaak"]Dont think you need 0.1C resolution at those temperatures in order to know if your tip is cooled a bit down, especially if you use something with a large thermal mass like a copperplate :). The magic and speed happens in the controlloop. So a fast ADC and thight coding (fast code) is key.[/quote]

You need resolution in order to make your PID more accurate, and be able to do much more precise filtering and calculations. It is much better to regulate the temperature within 1 degree using 12bit DAC then using 8bit one (like majority of cheap chinese controllers).

However, I don't think 12 bits will give you something consideraby more than 10bits, but if it's available in the MCU you are using, there is no reason not to use the full resolution it gives. Half degree resolution of 10bit ADC is perfectly OK for me. If I needed more - I have digital offset setting in my new version and instead of using full 0-512 degrees, I can set up the heardware to read 100-500 degrees which will give me more resolution. But I don't see the reason going this far.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on May 06, 2015, 12:55:01 am
[quote author="sparkybg"]
I am using 0.96 inch because it is a perfect match for my enclosure - I did not had to make any modifications to it other than drilling a hole for the USB port on the front panel.
[/quote]

i saw this display a few times. If i remember they was used in portable mp3 players. If you use it only for enclosure reason - then fine, why not. Most of us do same  (me too). Personally i dont like small displays with lot of information so i made choose for this REG010016AYPP5N0. Check here for example : http://we.easyelectronics.ru/tag/WS0010/ (http://we.easyelectronics.ru/tag/WS0010/)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: randomone on May 06, 2015, 01:17:10 am
[quote author="Sjaak"]
I'm just controlling a T12 tip and dont have need for JBC-C210. I tested the controller on multiple PCBs (multiple revisions of it, multiple builds) with scavenged, beat up and also brandspankingshinynew LM358's. As far as I can see not much difference between the controller.
[/quote]

Hey Sjaak where can we download your design ? Have you shared it ?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on May 06, 2015, 01:36:00 am
[quote author="mrjoda"]
i saw this display a few times. If i remember they was used in portable mp3 players. If you use it only for enclosure reason - then fine, why not. Most of us do same  (me too). Personally i dont like small displays with lot of information so i made choose for this REG010016AYPP5N0. Check here for example : http://we.easyelectronics.ru/tag/WS0010/ (http://we.easyelectronics.ru/tag/WS0010/)[/quote]

Too big pixels (too low resolution for it's dimensions) for my taste. :) But anyway, everyone has opinion of his own on this.

 I bought mine directly from manufacturer's (Winstar Display) reseller in europe. But these are widely available and still produced by at least 3 manufacturers. And cheap too. I do have 2 bigger and hopefully compatible displays with the same resolution from the same manufacturer, but so far they stay in their boxes. :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on May 06, 2015, 11:30:30 am
low resolution is acceptable for number and few text. But contrast and visibility and view angle, ooooh when i saw it i told myself "i must have it" :D cost about 15€. I start work on my project after 11 june and i can post it here if you want.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on May 06, 2015, 12:25:52 pm
[quote author="mrjoda"]But contrast...  and view angle...[/quote]

This is OLED. They are all equal in this respect.

Another option is to use a phone or industrial IPS display. There are some with brightness of 900cd/m2 and more. This is far more then OLEDs we are using can provide.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on May 06, 2015, 03:57:48 pm
industrial IPS or hires displays are out of my league, for soldering station is it overkill like hell. These displays may cost 100€ + (4K embeded or similar).Using hires IPS  or other industrial display is best choice using STM32 with free STemWin and do magic. But why if is not necessary :D OLED is best choise for these projects.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: tmatthewj on May 09, 2015, 11:38:38 am
Hi guys!

I'm new here. I have a question for you.
Which solder handpiece do you recommend for me? I would like to build the station/controller part, because of the money ... :)
I usually solder small smd parts, in school I use two Ersa I-con nano. I'm satisfied with it, but the price here (Hungary) is high for home use. Tip change could be better on it. :)
Based on my search, I like JBC handpieces most (t210, t245), after the Hakko solutions.
So, if You could give me any advice about these irons (maintainability, life time, usability etc.) I would appreciate it.

Thank you!
tmatthewj
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on May 09, 2015, 12:29:07 pm
Ersa Icon Pico cost about 130€. If you build controller with all stuff you cross this price.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on May 09, 2015, 07:18:46 pm
Hey sparkybg,
When I apply PWM to the solder, there is some voltages if you touch it with your tongue and or back of your hands. Why? also I didn't connect the GND wire.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on May 09, 2015, 11:01:48 pm
[quote author="Ryan111"]Hey sparkybg,
When I apply PWM to the solder, there is some voltages if you touch it with your tongue and or back of your hands. Why? also I didn't connect the GND wire.[/quote]

What controller, what tip, what power supply?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on May 10, 2015, 07:12:52 am
[quote author="sparkybg"]What controller, what tip, what power supply?[/quote]
The controller that I'm working on it. I'm using this (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=5264&start=180#p58264) project.
T12 tip.
Power supply is this (http://http://www.amazon.com/Bargz-Electronics-Tools-Accessories-Switching/dp/B00SVLK5PU/ref=sr_1_19?s=lamps-light&ie=UTF8&qid=1429174716&sr=1-19&keywords=switching+power+24v).
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: diogoc on May 10, 2015, 05:12:33 pm
You are connecting the case of the power supply to the mains earth?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: luklf01 on May 10, 2015, 05:58:04 pm
hello
i think the chinese hakko T12 tips also the power supply in cloned stations have just only a half power ! than original one and even chinese on aliexpress notice about that the heating element has just 36wat , i think its thats why they did remove standby function in fx-951 clone , cause the delivered/received power is to low for rise temp. quickly when going up from standby 
 so now lets compare the prices of T12 tips chinese vs T12 hakko , chinese cost half than original so i think better is to pay for original one
original deliver 70W and heating element has 70W
chinese deliver 36W and heating element has 36W ;) , so i think maximum power in fx-951 clone is around 50W from transformer
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on May 10, 2015, 07:22:18 pm
[quote author="diogoc"]You are connecting the case of the power supply to the mains earth?[/quote]
Hi and thanks for answer
No, I didn't.

a question:
How much current the T12 tips make at 450 degree?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: diogoc on May 10, 2015, 08:20:29 pm
You should connect it to earth.

It is hard to say. The controller initially use the full 70W to rise fast to the target temperature and then it is only need a low PWM dutty to maintain the temperature.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on May 10, 2015, 09:55:12 pm
1. Chinese T12 tips are 70W, just like original ones.
2. Chinese T12 tips costs between 5 and 8 times less than originals.

I have more than 50 chinese T12 tips and one original, so I do know what I am talking about.

P.S. Chinese FX951 is total crap. :

... and, if you are asking me, JBC C245 is much better for the same price as original T12. :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: luklf01 on May 10, 2015, 10:47:12 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]1. Chinese T12 tips are 70W, just like original ones.
2. Chinese T12 tips costs between 5 and 8 times less than originals.

I have more than 50 chinese T12 tips and one original, so I do know what I am talking about.

P.S. Chinese FX951 is total crap. :

... and, if you are asking me, JBC C245 is much better for the same price as original T12. :)[/quote]
so the chinese T12 power is same or near than original one ?
sorry i didnt read whole of post :)

1. Chinese T12 tips are 70W, just like original ones.
2. Chinese T12 tips costs between 5 and 8 times less than originals.

then why chinese sellers notiffy about that their T12 heating element have just 36 wat ?

also what is the crap in the fx-951 clone (maybe just power transformer had less than needed power ?) so it cant deliver full 70W to heater ?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Sjaak on May 11, 2015, 08:16:08 am
[quote author="luklf01"]hello
i think the chinese hakko T12 tips also the power supply in cloned stations have just only a half power ! than original one and even chinese on aliexpress notice about that the heating element has just 36wat , i think its thats why they did remove standby function in fx-951 clone , cause the delivered/received power is to low for rise temp. quickly when going up from standby 
 so now lets compare the prices of T12 tips chinese vs T12 hakko , chinese cost half than original so i think better is to pay for original one
original deliver 70W and heating element has 70W
chinese deliver 36W and heating element has 36W ;) , so i think maximum power in fx-951 clone is around 50W from transformer[/quote]

The chinese tips I got draw about 3amps (less due to the fact you  need to measure the temp) Prolly they only used a cheaper transformer?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on May 11, 2015, 08:36:34 am
[quote author="luklf01"]
then why chinese sellers notiffy about that their T12 heating element have just 36 wat ?
[/quote]
I don't know.

[quote author="luklf01"]
also what is the crap in the fx-951 clone (maybe just power transformer had less than needed power ?) so it cant deliver full 70W to heater ?[/quote]

Everything inside screams "I'M CHEAP!". It has nothing to do with the original FX-951, so you can call it "clone" only because the box look the same, at least on the photo, but nothing more. Inside it is as cheap as every other chinese controller. :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Sjaak on May 11, 2015, 09:40:39 am
[quote author="randomone"][quote author="Sjaak"]
I'm just controlling a T12 tip and dont have need for JBC-C210. I tested the controller on multiple PCBs (multiple revisions of it, multiple builds) with scavenged, beat up and also brandspankingshinynew LM358's. As far as I can see not much difference between the controller.
[/quote]

Hey Sjaak where can we download your design ? Have you shared it ?[/quote]

Not yet.

It is basicly a simple opamp (lm358) to amplify the thermocouple and a p-fet to turn the heater on. All is controlled by a pic16f182x (depends on the memory I need in the final design). It uses a small oled (128x32) for displaying variuous data and some buttons.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: ppsati on May 12, 2015, 01:24:59 am
Hi all.

I'm new here, and this is my first post.
I find this work very interesting sparkybg.
Are people like you who make us think ,and motivate us to continue discovery practices and inexpensive solutions for those who do not have the possibility to be able to buy something better.
 
Thank you for the great work you have done.

Regards.

PPsati
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: tmatthewj on May 12, 2015, 11:54:34 am
[quote author="mrjoda"]Ersa Icon Pico cost about 130€. If you build controller with all stuff you cross this price.[/quote]

Hi mjorda!
Thank you for the answer.
Maybe I am wrong, but I think I'll be still under 130€, if I buy  for example a jbc t245 handle with one tip and I build a "non fancy" controller. I have the probably most expensive part, the transformer, FETs, Display and most of the other cheaper parts too.
I can buy from auction sites the handle for 25-35€ + the tip for 5-10€ used. For start is good enough for me. :)


Hi sparkybg!
If I build the controller in the second post of this thread, can I use the jbc t245 with it? (maybe the t210 too?)
What are the main differences between the new version that will come, and the "old" one?

tmatthewj
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on May 12, 2015, 12:18:48 pm
C245 - Yes, C210 - No.

For C210 and any other iron with TC or resistive sensor, you will have to wait for me to publish the new version. It will be there soon, maybe tonight. But it is much more complex and expensive to build.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: tmatthewj on May 12, 2015, 12:33:47 pm
Ohh. Ok. I can't wait for it... :P
I think it will worth the extra money. :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on May 12, 2015, 12:39:34 pm
I saw JBC handle on ebay once or two times, everytime i loose :) 35€ for handle + one tip is a good price. Realy is

If you dont have transformer and enclosure box and most expensive parts, it will be ... ehm... close this price but you have right, it  will worth any peny. JBC WELLER METCAL (or Thermaltronics) is the best on market.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on May 14, 2015, 06:27:53 pm
Here's a link to the thread for the newest version (much more complex and expensive, but much more universal):
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=7218&p=61175#p61175 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=7218&p=61175#p61175)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on June 11, 2015, 11:24:01 am
Need to help for this problem:

http://http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/174934/the-op-amps-dont-work-correctly-for-this-circuit-thermocouple
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on June 11, 2015, 11:55:20 am
Put R7 in series with HEATER+, before R16 and C12.
Replace C12 with 1n capacitor.

Connect the soldering tip without powering it. Then measure the voltage at input and output while heating it with lighter.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on June 11, 2015, 02:36:17 pm
Thanks
Done but result wasn't good(actually your idea didn't work). I just got a small amount between 4mv and 2mv in the output of the Op-Amp (it didn't change due to heating. I mean it showed me the amounts as I didn't apply heat). I did all things you said and applied heat by light to the tip.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on June 11, 2015, 02:46:22 pm
[quote author="Ryan111"]Thanks
Done but result wasn't good(actually your idea didn't work). I just got a small amount between 4mv and 2mv in the output of the Op-Amp (it didn't change due to heating. I mean it showed me the amounts as I didn't apply heat). I did all things you said and applied heat by light to the tip.[/quote]

And what was the voltage at the input? You must measure several millivolts at the input of the amplifier.

About the idea - it is not an idea, but a better arrangement of the parts. In your schematic the 10n capacitor is not doing anything, and you will have to put a higher voltage capacitor. When you rearrange the schematic as I said, the capacitor is doung a real job, filtering the input voltage, and hever has a higher voltage than 0.7volts on it. :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on June 11, 2015, 03:09:18 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]And what was the voltage at the input? You must measure several millivolts at the input of the amplifier.

About the idea - it is not an idea, but a better arrangement of the parts. In your schematic the 10n capacitor is not doing anything, and you will have to put a higher voltage capacitor. When you rearrange the schematic as I said, the capacitor is doung a real job, filtering the input voltage, and hever has a higher voltage than 0.7volts on it. :)[/quote]
Ok, when the +input is 25.7, the output is 14.8(and osilating around it) and when the +input is 26.4mv, the output is 14.8(and osilating around it again). the input is changing when I apply the heat(the +input is about 27-28mv when I apply heat) but nothing for the output! :(
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on June 11, 2015, 03:56:18 pm
There must be some problem on the PCB then, either with feedback network, power to the opamp, or something else.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on June 11, 2015, 04:59:18 pm
Let me to show you a picture of my circuit:

(http://http://img4.uplood.fr/free/0z0j_20150611_192301.jpg)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on June 11, 2015, 06:06:37 pm
I cannot debug your design looking at the picture. You will have to do it yourself. Look at the datasheet, check your connections, voltages and so on. I can say only that the problem is not with the schematic.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on June 12, 2015, 07:45:21 pm
Thanks sparkybg
I changed the supply to this:

(http://http://pcboard.ca/store/image/cache/product_popup/data/products/breadboard/proto-power-supply-on-breadboard-500x500.jpg)

Breadboard Power Supply with 3.3v & 5v Outputs (http://http://pcboard.ca/store/breadboard-power-supply-with-3-3v-and-5v-outputs.html)

And applied the heat and I got the output as I expected!! then the problem is the switching supply! any idea to solve this problem?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on June 12, 2015, 07:58:11 pm
What Idea do you need? Just use a decent power supply. If you want to use swithing power supply, you will have to make in on real PCB, not on a breadboard.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on July 01, 2015, 01:04:59 pm
only a few missing parts and maybe it will works :)


and yes, they are homemade
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 01, 2015, 01:16:28 pm
[quote author="mrjoda"]only a few missing parts and maybe it will works :)


and yes, they are homemade[/quote]

The PCBs are homemade? If yes, what technology are you using for solder masks?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on July 01, 2015, 02:12:28 pm
the pcb made my coleague. I work with ebay UV soldering mask and result is not so good. He has results on high level. He use two parts epoxid based mask with code XZ15T or XV501T-4, stable heat controlled owen and good UV exposure unit, some chemical glass, scales and good "mesh" for screenprinting. Results are excellent, final price for dm^2 is few cents but it takes all day make one PCB and when you make some mistake, you must start again all process.

check this video https://youtu.be/4l1mXpL5lDQ (https://youtu.be/4l1mXpL5lDQ) process is very similar.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on July 10, 2015, 03:07:25 pm
ok, i am trying it bring to life but without success.

First problem in SW is written :
/*#################### Uncomment parameters for the iron you are using #####################*/
i need only HAKKO and when i comment JBC and regulary K it shows error

main.c:172: error: (192) undefined identifier "PID2_DGAIN"
main.c:254: error: (192) undefined identifier "PID2_KP"
main.c:254: error: (192) undefined identifier "PID2_KI"
main.c:295: error: (192) undefined identifier "PID2_KP"

second problem: power supply is OK, main 5V is 5.0098V, VIN 25V, Vin 3,6V and it wont work. Display - nothing, output - nothing.
I try debug it in mplab and i found this, main program stuck here :
    while(MAINS);
    while(!MAINS);
    while(MAINS);
    while(!MAINS);

i connect 5V (few cycles - connect, unconnect, connect) to zener and shows - - - on display and after while stop displaying anything and i see progress in program flow, condition with MAINS was fullfiled and program flow on. When i connect front and back board together - nothing.  I try 5V ON /OFF and nothing...  I check all boards under magnifying glass and check all parts, everything is ok.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 10, 2015, 03:43:19 pm
Are you connecting 25V AC? This controller cannot work with DC.

You must have PID2 parameters uncommented. The station will detect there is nothing on second sensor channel and will use PID1 parameters.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on July 10, 2015, 03:45:27 pm
yes i have 25V 60W Indel toroid from my previous project. I must look at it with my scope.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 10, 2015, 03:50:44 pm
Check connections between front and back board (not only power - all the connections). They must be connected properly - front depends on back, and it wont work if unconnected.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on July 10, 2015, 04:53:17 pm
checked, now i have on display 666. instead of nothing or ---
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 10, 2015, 07:08:17 pm
Does it providing power to the iron? Push and hold center button, in must enter the settings menu. If not, the firmware interrupt routine is not working - check connections between back and front PCBs again. You must have the mains voltage limited to under 5V at terminal 24 of the MCU. This voltage is used for zero cross detection in order to run ISR. If the center button is functional - check the 7 segment display connections and Q5 - Q7 transistors.

There is not "666" in firmware, so there must be some kind of hardware problem somewhere.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on July 12, 2015, 02:00:06 pm
i suspect the PIC is damaged, unfortunately only suplier is farnell, i go on vacation so when i come back i order and replace PIC. Meanwhile i drawn my own controller, this version is with MSP430F5310 but i work on stm32F051 version, is cheaper (2€ against 5€) and more powerfull and i can do direct phase regulation. It will be fun :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 12, 2015, 03:18:15 pm
Phase regulation will cteate much noise and you will jave trouble reading the thermocouple.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on July 12, 2015, 03:40:47 pm
with window comparator i can do zero detection, same as you do and use it as PWM synchro. i call it phase regulation maybe is not right
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on July 12, 2015, 07:57:08 pm
Hi sparkybg
I have a question. Can I use this type of amplifire to amplify the output of the thermocouple?

(http://http://img4.uplood.fr/free/b1nd_657324.png)

Why haven't you used this type of amplifire?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 13, 2015, 08:54:24 am
[quote author="Ryan111"]Hi sparkybg
I have a question. Can I use this type of amplifire to amplify the output of the thermocouple?
Why haven't you used this type of amplifire?[/quote]

This is poor man's differential amplifier. It will give you next to nothing in this project. You will have to provide positive and negative power supply for it in order to give you something real. At least with MCP617 on the picture.

I am using 3 OPAMP instrumentational amplifier + 1 opamp second stage in the latest version of the controller. It has input selection and inversion capabilities, gain and offset setting. And it uses -0.7 +3.3V power supply.

And, yes, you can use it. Just make sure you put protection diodes after the 10K resistors at the input. You will have to replace the capacitors with a smaller ones for it to be fast enough.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 13, 2015, 08:58:46 am
[quote author="mrjoda"]with window comparator i can do zero detection, same as you do and use it as PWM synchro. i call it phase regulation maybe is not right[/quote]

It is not that easy, you will see. The transformer has some parasitics, and you will have to deal with them. You may succeed, however. Just expect unexpected. I had to make 5 versions of the controller to clear out everything. :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on July 14, 2015, 02:10:17 pm
sparky can you tell me please, is it possible replace in your controler PIC18F24K22 to PIC18F25K22 or 18F26K22 without any changes in software ? It seems to be one family but 25 and 26 has more memory.

thanks
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 14, 2015, 02:19:51 pm
If only the memory is different, probably yes. You will have to recompile the firmware I think.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on July 14, 2015, 03:57:23 pm
Doh!
I have forgotten to connect "-Heat" to common ground. I just connected it and now I have another problem. I have about 250mv on "+Heat" (I measured it by an DMM(Digital MultiMeter)). Why? I have connected a 100nf cap and 100uf cap between "-Heat" and "+Heat" but couldn't help me. all parts of my soldering iron are completed save this part. my Op-Amp is MCP6V07.

the circuit is this:

(http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=11507)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 14, 2015, 04:45:31 pm
I don't know. The schematic on the picture is OK.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 15, 2015, 09:28:29 am
Are you measuring these 250mV when the heater/thermocouple is connected to the amplifier? If not, connect the heater/thermocouple and measure it again.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on July 16, 2015, 03:55:43 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]Are you measuring these 250mV when the heater/thermocouple is connected to the amplifier? If not, connect the heater/thermocouple and measure it again.[/quote]
No, I'm measuring it when the heater/thermocouple is connected to the amplifier. :(
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 16, 2015, 04:03:29 pm
[quote author="Ryan111"][quote author="sparkybg"]Are you measuring these 250mV when the heater/thermocouple is connected to the amplifier? If not, connect the heater/thermocouple and measure it again.[/quote]
No, I'm measuring it when the heater/thermocouple is connected to the amplifier. :([/quote]

I don't know then. You will have to debug it yourself.

What tip are you connecting? If T12, is it used or not? It happens with Chinese Т12 to show some strange results before first heat up.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on July 16, 2015, 07:45:24 pm
Yeah, it's T12. several times ago I turned it on without controller (just by connecting -+Heat to -+24v). I don't know how to recognize it's chinese or not. I have bought five T12 tips and on all of their packets marked Made in Japan.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 16, 2015, 07:48:49 pm
[quote author="Ryan111"]Yeah, it's T12. several times ago I turned it on without controller (just by connecting -+Heat to -+24v). I don't know how to recognize it's chinese or not. I have bought five T12 tips and on all of their packets marked Made in Japan.[/quote]

Yees, I have around 50 tips marked "made in Japan", but they are chinese. :)

Have you tried all the tips?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on July 17, 2015, 01:46:39 pm
I replaced the tip with a new one but it didn't work. already when I measured the output of heater, I could see an amount between 3-1mv (when I breathing on it) but now nothing! even when I separately connect +-Heat to the DMM. I can turn on the tip though. it's going to be a complicated issue to me.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 17, 2015, 02:01:24 pm
Connect Vout and GND together. Output from the amp should go from full 5V to almost zero. If it does, your amplifier is OK and sekk for the problem elsewhere. If it doesn't then something with the amplifier is not right.

I don't know how to help more. I only had minor and easy to resolve problems when assembling this project. It ran more or less flawlessly when I assembled it for the first time. The firmware was far more challenging then hardware.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on July 18, 2015, 01:07:35 pm
Today I was searching on net for FX-951 or 950 I found some close image of main board:

(http://http://vmaniac.com/files/1g8h_88_780318_5f73b27fe3bd98a.jpg)

(http://http://vmaniac.com/files/39f6fd8b74812eac1.jpg)

(http://http://vmaniac.com/files/39f64d1dd2bd72673.jpg)

(http://http://vmaniac.com/files/39f6a685d736c1ec2.jpg)

And two link:

http://http://www.hkepc.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=1956917

http://http://bbs.hifidiy.net/thread-400486-1-1.html

And this intersting station:

http://http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/OLED-Digital-Soldering-Iron-Station-Temperature-Controller-For-HAKKO-Handle/1709846_32289765975.html

[quote author="sparkybg"]Connect Vout and GND together. Output from the amp should go from full 5V to almost zero. If it does, your amplifier is OK and sekk for the problem elsewhere. If it doesn't then something with the amplifier is not right.

I don't know how to help more. I only had minor and easy to resolve problems when assembling this project. It ran more or less flawlessly when I assembled it for the first time. The firmware was far more challenging then hardware.[/quote]
Which Vout? you mean this in this circuit?:

(http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=11507)

I have to connect it to +Heat in fact, Am I right? ok, I connected it to GND and I have 60mv in the output of Op-Amp.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 19, 2015, 10:10:52 am
Vout and Heat+ is the same. :)

60mV is a bit high for this opamp (will give you arround 10 on the 10 bit ADC), but is more or less enough to show that opamp is OK.

I don't know what more to say.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on July 23, 2015, 05:08:34 pm
Am I missing something or is this project missing the BOM?

I know the components are annotated in the Schematic but is there an Excel spreadsheet or anything like that for the entire parts list? I can seem to see anything of the sort in any of the RAR files.

Also, has anyone ordered multiple PCBs that they would be willing to sell a set to me. I'm in the UK and the prices I've been quoted seem prohibitive for such a  project.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on July 23, 2015, 05:44:25 pm
Ignore my previous post.

I'm clearly an idiot. :P


The BOM is in the Altium PCBDOC fies.

However, I'm still interested in buying a set of PCB's if anyone has them going spare.

Thank you

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on July 24, 2015, 06:54:01 am
[quote author="sparkybg"]Vout and Heat+ is the same. :)

60mV is a bit high for this opamp (will give you arround 10 on the 10 bit ADC), but is more or less enough to show that opamp is OK.

I don't know what more to say.[/quote]
Thank you.
Probably I have to use ohm law to make my soldering iron.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on July 24, 2015, 06:54:55 am
Any idea to use ohm law to measure temp?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 24, 2015, 08:31:49 am
[quote author="Ryan111"]Any idea to use ohm law to measure temp?[/quote]

These tips has TC in them. Ohm's law has nothing to do with measuring TC voltage.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on July 27, 2015, 05:51:52 pm
Hi sparkybg and thanks for reply.
I checked the tips and they are unscathed. god! (wink)
now that everything is correct then why the amplifier doesn't work correctly!?
What's wrong with it? eek! what the ...
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 28, 2015, 09:27:45 am
[quote author="Ryan111"]Hi sparkybg and thanks for reply.
I checked the tips and they are unscathed. god! (wink)
now that everything is correct then why the amplifier doesn't work correctly!?
What's wrong with it? eek! what the ...[/quote]

I don't know. It works in my controller.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on July 28, 2015, 07:32:56 pm
When I connect the input of the amplifier (+HEATER) to GND and or 3v3, it just show 50mv. What's the matter with amplifier?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 28, 2015, 11:03:00 pm
When you connect (+HEATER) to 3v3, the amplifier output should go near the supply rail. If it still shows 50mV, obviously, something is wrong with the amplifier or the parts around it.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on July 29, 2015, 03:57:16 pm
Hi Sparky,

Could I have some input on a suitable transformer for a JBC2245 hand-piece that I'm going to be using on this please?

How much of a voltage range do I have for that iron. Can I use either 24 or 25 or 26v transformer.

Also what is a suitable VA rating for a transformer suitable for that Iron?

Many thanks for your help

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on July 29, 2015, 04:05:04 pm
Did you read the first post in this thread?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on July 29, 2015, 07:43:31 pm
Yes I did. 

It mentions a 24v transformer.  That's it. No rating other than that which is why I asked.

Some posters mention 100va and some lower so I asked Sparky what he used as the transformer is quite an expensive part of this project and I didn't want to cock it up.

Maybe I'm missing something and you could point me in the right direction.?

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on July 29, 2015, 09:18:19 pm
well, reading a couple of pages in the start, and you will find:
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=5264&start=15#p50695 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=5264&start=15#p50695)

and other places it's noted that it's and 24v torodial transformer of 100va
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 29, 2015, 11:53:10 pm
100VA is enough.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on July 30, 2015, 12:15:55 am
Thank you sparkybg, that's all I wanted to know, a concise answer from the expert.

neslekkim thank you for your answer as well, you've both been very helpful.

Thank you.

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on August 04, 2015, 12:02:47 pm
Hi SparkyBG

Can you help me with the connection to a JBC C2245 Iron handle with this controller please?

Its the same as the C245 I believe but after searching for JBC in all the posts there isn't a clear connection diagram for it and I just need to know what goes where for the TC and IRON headers on that handle.

As an aside I will have some spare PCBs for this controller so if anyone wants one and is happy to pay cost+postage please PM me.

Thank you.

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on August 04, 2015, 12:35:50 pm
1. Remove C20 and C21 if you soldered them
2. Replace R20 with 7.5kOhm
3. Connect TC to Vout in the iron's connector.
4. Use smaller voltage transofmer while you are trying it for the first time or be raeady to switch it off fast while trying.

As long as I remember, you must connect Vout and TC to smaller electrode, "-" to middle electrode and GND to outer electrode of the tip. I don't remember the wire colors in the JBC connector.

This way you will be able to use both Hakko T12 and JBC C245. You will have to uncomment JBC C245 parameters in the firmware for second channel and comment the others.

If you have more questions I will be glad to answer.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on August 06, 2015, 04:53:33 pm
Hi SparkyBG,

Please forgive my ignorance but you say :

Quote
As long as I remember, you must connect Vout and TC to smaller electrode, "-" to middle electrode and GND to outer electrode of the tip. I don't remember the wire colors in the JBC connector.

I'm having a hard time getting my head round this especially with regards the TC connection.

With the TC connection (TC + and TC-) isn't TC- just connected to Ground in the Schematic?

Also isn't the other pin on the Iron connector also connected to Ground?

Is this connection diagram posted by yourself on another thread correct?

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2457&start=705#p56985 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2457&start=705#p56985)

(http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=10990&t=1)

I don't want to Ground something I shouldn't but from  my point of view it looks like the TC and Heater are connected across each other but like I say I'm confused because there is a Ground connection on the Tip which in the Schematic the TC output - is connected to.

I would be very appreciative of any help you can give me. I'm so close to finishing this project having had the PCBs made in China and sourcing the parts from Farnell and doing some fine soldering! (All I need to do is program the MCU and hook up the Iron and I'm done)

I suppose all I need to know is what TC- is on the controller and what is s in respect of Ground.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on August 06, 2015, 05:44:03 pm
Controller can be used with two instruments - one must be with series thermocouple, and another one can be with series or separate thermocouple.

The controller has two inputs for the temperature measurement - one of the amplifiers senses the Vout, and another one senses TC. When something is connected to TC it uses this channel, otherwise it uses Vout.

For example, if you want to use both T12 and C245, T12 is connected only to Vout and GND, and the controller uses PID1 paremeters. To use C245, you must connect TC and Vout together, and connect the C245 tip to GND as "-" and to Vout+TC as +. The controller then will use PID2 parameters for C245.

Shortly, connect both Vout and TC to C245 "+" and GND to C245 "-", and uncomment the firmware PID2 parameters for C245. This will do the trick.

TC-, "-", and power ground are all the same. If you want to use earth connection, connect it to outer shell of the tip. The handle has separate wire for this.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on August 06, 2015, 09:49:20 pm
Hi SparkyBG,

Thanks for your help with this :-)

Just out of interest if I program the PIC for testing with the .HEX file included with the Source, should I get anything on the display if I just connect 5 volts to the 5 volt header?

Its just I'm not getting anything even when everything is connected right.

regards

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on August 06, 2015, 10:32:54 pm
No,you won'r get nothing on display. You must assemble both boards and put AC power on the back board. Everything in this controller, including display, is synchronized with AC mains.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on August 06, 2015, 10:42:51 pm
Okay,  well I've done that and nothing on the display but a nice steady 5v on the pic.

The troubleshooting starts here.

Any suggestions welcome.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on August 06, 2015, 11:00:21 pm
You must assemble both boards and connect them to each other with all the wires. 5V is just the power to the PIC, there is AC sync signal between back and front board which must also be connected. The PIC uses this signal to generate interrupt. Every function in the firmware is synchronized with this interrupt.

You must have rectified transformer voltage with lower amplitude on RB3 terminal. This generates the interrupt.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on August 06, 2015, 11:05:11 pm
All the wires are connected on both boards the only thing not connected is the iron

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on August 06, 2015, 11:14:09 pm
Can you measure the voltage on RB3 terminal with oscilloscope?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on August 07, 2015, 12:43:52 am
There is a 2v pk-pk 100hz half sine wave on that pin

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on August 07, 2015, 01:07:18 am
OK I think it's the displays. There a load of activity on the pins but nothing on them

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on August 07, 2015, 01:52:20 am
Has anyone found an equivalent to the sa39-11srwa led displays which I can't seem to find in the UK?

The CA ones I ordered from eBay ant pin compatible.

Any ideas guys?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on August 07, 2015, 09:01:13 am
It is SA36-11SRWA. I've just corrected it on the schematic.

Mouser, Digikey, Future Electronics, TME, Conrad have it.

Farnell has them also, with another color. The SA36 is the important part of the designation. The other characters are for the color and brightness.

For example,  SA36-11SURKWA is available at Farnell, which is even 3 times brightier then SRWA. If it is too bright, there is brightness option in the menu or you can replace the resistors with higher value.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on August 07, 2015, 10:30:00 am
[quote author="equalizor"]There is a 2v pk-pk 100hz half sine wave on that pin

Regards

Rob[/quote]

This is too low. What transformer are you using? If it is 24V, R30/R31 voltage divider makes it around 8V, and ZD4 limits it to arouns 3.7-3.9.

The comparator for the interrupt is set to 1.41V, and hysteresis is turned on.

It should work anyway, but the voltage on the pin is too low. Even with 12V transformer it should be considerably higher than 3V.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on August 07, 2015, 11:46:23 pm
OK,  I'm pretty sure this thing is working.

I've desoldered the displays and as a test soldered a red led between common and one of the other display pins. When I press and hold various buttons the led changes state which in my mind means the pic is running to an extent. Should the speaker beep when any keys are pressed?

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on August 11, 2015, 12:05:48 am
interesting, few pages back i had same problem. Next week i will change broken PIC and i try it again. Maybe bug in SW ? Can you look at SW sparkybg ? maybe mistake dot point or something.


Thanks
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on August 11, 2015, 01:30:18 am
[quote author="mrjoda"]interesting, few pages back i had same problem. Next week i will change broken PIC and i try it again. Maybe bug in SW ? Can you look at SW sparkybg ? maybe mistake dot point or something.


Thanks[/quote]

I will try it, but I have a working prototype with the same firmware. So the probability for firmware problem is pretty low.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on August 11, 2015, 09:31:59 am
Hi sparkybg
How much is the max input voltage of T-12 tips? I'm using a 24V transformer and I want to use 24VAC to turn T12 tips on but it has a 24*1.414V= 34V peak value (1.414 is RMS). I'm worry if 34v peak value would harm it.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on August 11, 2015, 10:13:01 am
24V transformer is OK. The tip is a resistive device, so the RMS power/voltage/current matters, not the peak one.

The heater will withstand 24V RMS with almost any waveform as long as you hold it's temperature in control.

Remember - power to the heater is unfiltered rectified 24V AC. The RMS voltage is still the same (two diode drops lower) after rectification when there is no big enough filter capacitors after the rectifier.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on August 11, 2015, 11:42:18 am
Thanks. I have rectified 24V AC. a picture:

(http://http://img4.uplood.fr/free/y53k_20150811_135936.jpg)

I have changed the supply to this transformed supply (because I thought the problem is my switching supply) but I still have problem with the amplifier. when I connect the input to GND, at output I have 0.3mv and when I connect the input to 3.3v(Vcc) I have an oscilated output between 20-18mv. :(
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on August 11, 2015, 12:02:54 pm
And how do you control the voltage to the heater? The measurements must be made while the controlling MOSFET is off. And it must turn off for a millisecond or so, between mains half periods.

Are you making my controller or something else? I cannot comment anything else. Everything in my controller has a purpose. If you removed something from your version I cannot know waht the conse`uences are, unless you provide a full schematic of everything behing the transformer.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on August 11, 2015, 12:32:34 pm
No, currently I'm controlling it manually. I mean I connect +HEATER to rectified 24VAC and when it getting hot I disconnect it. several images of the circuit that I wired up:

(http://http://img4.uplood.fr/free/wuoi_20150811_144654.jpg)

(http://http://img4.uplood.fr/free/pqeg_20150811_144714.jpg)

(http://http://img4.uplood.fr/free/a51h_20150811_144751.jpg)

This is my schematic:

(http://http://view.samurajdata.se/rsc/1215e8b8/tmp1.gif)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on August 11, 2015, 12:52:14 pm
the schematic is completely unreadable.

The only thing I can see is that you don't have 15V zener on the gate-source of the MOSFET. You will damage it this way.

Another thing - you are measuring microvolts using amplifier with large gain. You must either make good ground plane (I mean making a PCB), make special ground wiring, or you must make differential amplifier for the TC. You will always have trouble with circuits with high gain if you don't do the ground layout right.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on August 11, 2015, 02:37:56 pm
How to put the zener for this circuit?

Is this circuit good for a start?(I know, its gain isn't big enough. I will increase it if this circuit could be ok):

(http://http://img4.uplood.fr/free/vo3b_amdjhgg.png)

I don't know how to put a GND for -HEATER. Can I put a couple 1N4148 for -HEATER after R1?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on August 11, 2015, 10:53:30 pm
Hi All,

Right, seeing as I'm still waiting for the LED Displays to turn up, I decided to try compiling the firmware with MPXLAB IDE v3.05 and it just wont do it. I get the following error even though as a test I've made no changes to the code. Any ideas SparkyBG?

On a side note, Ryan111 maybe you could take your side project to a separate thread? This thread is for Sparky's controller, and adding your homebrew one into the mix is needlessly confusing in an already complicated thread. I'm not being snarky, just your project needs its own thread.

Cheers

Rob

make -f nbproject/Makefile-PIC18_XC8.mk SUBPROJECTS= .build-conf
make[1]: Entering directory 'Y:/Users/Rob/Desktop/BK3000LF.X'
make  -f nbproject/Makefile-PIC18_XC8.mk dist/PIC18_XC8/production/BK3000LF.X.production.hex
make[2]: Entering directory 'Y:/Users/Rob/Desktop/BK3000LF.X'
"C:Program Files (x86)Microchipxc8v1.35binxc8.exe" --pass1  --chip=18F24K22 -Q -G  --double=24 --float=24 --emi=wordwrite --opt=all,+asm,-asmfile,+speed,-space,-debug --addrqual=ignore --mode=pro -P -N255 --warn=0 --asmlist --summary=default,-psect,-class,+mem,-hex,-file --output=default,-inhx032 --runtime=default,+clear,+init,-keep,-no_startup,-download,+config,+clib,+plib --output=-mcof,+elf:multilocs --stack=compiled:auto:auto:auto "--errformat=%f:%l: error: (%n) %s" "--warnformat=%f:%l: warning: (%n) %s" "--msgformat=%f:%l: advisory: (%n) %s"    -obuild/PIC18_XC8/production/main.p1  main.c
:: warning: (1459) peripheral library support is missing for the 18F24K22
main.c:13: error: (141) can't open include file "GenericTypeDefs.h": No such file or directory
(908) exit status = 1
nbproject/Makefile-PIC18_XC8.mk:94: recipe for target 'build/PIC18_XC8/production/main.p1' failed
make[2]: Leaving directory 'Y:/Users/Rob/Desktop/BK3000LF.X'
nbproject/Makefile-PIC18_XC8.mk:78: recipe for target '.build-conf' failed
make[1]: Leaving directory 'Y:/Users/Rob/Desktop/BK3000LF.X'
nbproject/Makefile-impl.mk:39: recipe for target '.build-impl' failed
make[2]: *** [build/PIC18_XC8/production/main.p1] Error 1
make[1]: *** [.build-conf] Error 2
make: *** [.build-impl] Error 2

BUILD FAILED (exit value 2, total time: 868ms)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on August 12, 2015, 12:46:11 am
I am using MPLAB X 2.20 and XC8 1.33 and it builds without problems. Try using older version of XC8 compiler. It seems the peripheral libraries are missing.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on August 12, 2015, 02:34:07 pm
Hi SparkyBG,

That's worked! Compiles with no problem at all.

I've now got the correct LED displays so hopefully I'm back on track.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on August 12, 2015, 03:19:21 pm
@equalizor You are right but not completely because sometimes we want to ask some questions around the T12 tips and we cannot find any guy like sparkybg that has good experience with these stuffs. :) anyway, Ok, I'm going to ask questions about and around his/her circuit.

Hi sparkybg,
I found the problem. I tested the Op-Amp and found out that it has gotten hurt. eer!
now, if I connect it to 3v3, it shows me 3v3 and when I connect it to GND it shows 13mv. then please ignore above circuit.
My circuit is this:

(http://http://vmaniac.com/files/718bfb81b8d2a8561.png)

That I think it's completely like this (isn't it?):

(http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=11507)

But I have a problem again :). the output doesn't give me any amount. I measured the input of the circuit and it was exactly the amount that I expected to get but it's negative. :( why? I changed +HEATER to -HEATER and it got worse( much more negative than earlier).

Thanks and sorry if I bother you :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on August 12, 2015, 03:30:24 pm
Check your connections to the tip. The schematic is OK.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on August 12, 2015, 03:50:23 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]Check your connections to the tip. The schematic is OK.[/quote]
Thanks for reply.
Could it be because of R14 (in your circuit)? because you have used a 390k resistor but I'm using a 1Mohm and also when I apply heat to the tip, it goes up. for example from -7 to -2 and when it get cool, it goes down for example from -2 to -7.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on August 12, 2015, 03:53:48 pm
Oops! I forgot to ask How to put 15v zener for the MOSFET?
between Gate and GND or before R13 as you can see in this image:

(http://http://vmaniac.com/files/18db7b18e9b422021.png)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on August 12, 2015, 07:52:53 pm
I put a 1KOhm resistor instead of 390KOhm (R14) and it's working now. Is it normal?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on August 12, 2015, 08:17:26 pm
[quote author="Ryan111"]Oops! I forgot to ask How to put 15v zener for the MOSFET?[/quote]

As I already wrote - between gate and source of the MOSFET.

[quote author="Ryan111"]I put a 1KOhm resistor instead of 390KOhm (R14) and it's working now. Is it normal?[/quote]

1k is too low. 390K must work, if all the connections are right. If it doesn't you have a problem somewhere. The purpose of this resistor is to pull up the input of the amplifier when the tip is not connected to the controller.

I don't know what are you doing, but this is pretty simple schematic. The whole controller is really simple and noone so far had much problems building and running it. I suspect you are making some general mistakes I am unaware of.

If you ask me - order the PCB's from somewhere and assemble my controller. If you solder everything right, it should work. Then experiment with your own schematics when you have a working prototype. You will have much less trouble doing it this way.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on August 13, 2015, 08:08:32 am
Ok, then I'm going to make my PCB.
[quote author="sparkybg"]
As I already wrote - between gate and source of the MOSFET.[/quote]
Alright, then this should be ok:

(http://http://vmaniac.com/files/63216ae0499b242c1.png)

Thanks
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on August 13, 2015, 08:44:30 am
Yes, that's it.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on August 13, 2015, 03:24:44 pm
Ryan111,

Just for your information, if you're in the UK and you're planning on getting the Sparky PCB's made up for this project then I have a couple going spare for the cost price + postage. They were made in China by PCBWAY and look great. They cost £36.00 for ten boards (5x2) so a set would be £7.20+postage.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on August 13, 2015, 03:40:47 pm
Do you have more than one spare set? ;)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on August 13, 2015, 04:24:10 pm
I  actually have 3 left but I want another spare set, so in reality 2 really.

I haven't finished my build due to ebay sending some incorrect parts but I should know for sure at the weekend if the PCBs are as good as they look!

When its up and running i'll either put some pictures on here on my YouTube channel.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on August 13, 2015, 04:33:57 pm
Cool, if you can sell me a set it would be nice, let me know when you have found out.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on August 13, 2015, 07:18:47 pm
Thank you so much dear equalizor for your favor :)
If I were in UK, probably I would purchase two of them but there are two points that I prefer to do this myself:

1- I'm a boy from middle east (and you said if I'm from UK while I'm not)(wink)
2- and I always enjoy of doing all electronic stuffs myself!

I'm not an EE or computer technician. I'm an agricultural engineer. I know that's funny or interesting to you guys but that's what I am. :)

Have a good one!
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on August 13, 2015, 11:11:08 pm
order PCBs from itead studio, you will pay probably 38$ for 12 PCBs and small amount of postage. Itead do job very well
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on August 14, 2015, 10:42:37 am
[quote author="mrjoda"]order PCBs from itead studio, you will pay probably 38$ for 12 PCBs and small amount of postage. Itead do job very well[/quote]

Yes, but I think Altium is used, I cannot open the PcbDoc files to generate needed gerbers and such :(
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on August 14, 2015, 05:46:49 pm
Right so I'm a bit further.

The iron is heating up, and getting to around 350, but the display is all over the place.

I have put a video here, any comments welcome.

http://youtu.be/5qhMXK58zBc (http://youtu.be/5qhMXK58zBc)

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on August 14, 2015, 06:03:51 pm
What is the voltage of the transformer you are using?

It seems you have a problems with synchronization. Measure again voltage on PB3. For 24V transformer there should be a half-sinusoidal voltage, limited to around 3.5V If it is not - look for problems around R30,R31,ZD4,C22 - there must be something wrong there. The voltage on PB3 generates the interrupt the MCU is using for regulation and display.

It should look more or less like this:
[attachment=0]
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on August 14, 2015, 06:36:52 pm
The Transformer is a 26v one from a cheap 858 soldering/rework station.

Screenshot below of my odd waveform.

(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/24479485/20150814_173314.jpg)

I have literally no idea why that screenshot is upside down in my preview. But there it is.

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on August 14, 2015, 08:53:41 pm
Okay so on the Pin1 side of R30 I'm getting 21v but on the other side I'm only getting 2v, waveform looks okay now, but it's too low.

I have replaced the 10k resistor R30 but still the same.

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on August 15, 2015, 12:24:23 pm
Replace all the parts, including the capacitor and zener (3.9V). If the problem persists, check the wires again. You should get more than 30V on one side of R30 when iron is disconnected.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on August 15, 2015, 03:57:32 pm
if sparky  agree, i can post here gerber files from altium for you. Maybe i buy one(two) set from you if price will be good from itead


edit : i have new PIC now, i start work on it
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on August 16, 2015, 08:24:28 am
[quote author="mrjoda"]if sparky  agree, i can post here gerber files from altium for you. Maybe i buy one(two) set from you if price will be good from itead


edit : i have new PIC now, i start work on it[/quote]

Post them. No problem whatsoever,
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on August 16, 2015, 01:22:19 pm
Right, after resoldering the PIC the controller has settled down and the display and buttons work okay.

However while the controller seems to work to an extent it has issues when reaching the set temperature, in fact I'm not even sure the setting temperature is working since I cant get it to go to any other temperature than 533.

I have put another link to the video is this behaviour below. Comments welcome.

http://youtu.be/Rucjho7USpk (http://youtu.be/Rucjho7USpk)

Also SparkyBG can you confirm this section of PID.H is correct for my JBC Iron please?

/*#################### CHANNEL 1 IRON - series thermocouple ################################*/

//HAKKO T12/T15 or PACE TD100:
#define PID1_CHANNEL 2 //series thermocouple, Vref=4.096V)
#define PID1_DGAIN 6
#define PID1_KP 0.15
#define PID1_KI 0.01//08

/*##########################################################################################*/


/*#################### CHANNEL 2 IRON - separate thermocouple ##############################*/
/*#################### Uncomment parameters for the iron you are using #####################*/

//25W ordynary iron with K thermocouple
//#define PID2_CHANNEL 3 //separate thermocouple, Vref=4.096V
//#define PID2_DGAIN 23
//#define PID2_KP 0.7
//#define PID2_KI 0.007

//JBC C245
#define PID2_CHANNEL 1 //separate themocouple, Vref=2.048
#define PID2_DGAIN 11
#define PID2_KP 0.4
#define PID2_KI 0.01

/*##########################################################################################*/

#define PID1_K1 ((unsigned int)((PID1_KP+PID1_KI)*65536))
#define PID1_K2 ((unsigned int)(PID1_KP*65536))
#define PID2_K1 ((unsigned int)((PID2_KP+PID2_KI)*65536))
#define PID2_K2 ((unsigned int)(PID2_KP*65536))

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on August 16, 2015, 02:38:17 pm
Okay, after a bit of calibration its kind of working.

I think my biggest problem now is I'm not quite sure how I expect this controller to behave.

Sparky, can you give me a quick intro guide to how this works, for instance I cant seem to get the controller to change to any other temperature other than what I set it at with the UP/DOWN buttons?

Is there something I'm missing here?

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on August 17, 2015, 10:31:43 am
I've now tried the controller with a proper beefy 24v transformer (which I used from my actual JBC Soldering station) and that ended up with the Iron tip glowing red hot. Of course I disconnected immediately.

No idea whats going on.

Any ideas anyone?

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on August 20, 2015, 04:44:33 pm
Nothing? Anyone?

I'd appreciate any help anyone can give, especially if you're on of the users whose built this and are using it on the JBC iron.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on August 21, 2015, 09:20:42 pm
(http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=10990&t=1)

Connect together Vout and TC+ to "+" of the tip (the thinnest terminal) and GND to "-" of the tip (the middle terminal). That's it. Nothing more.

If the tip was red hot and the controller showed 23 degrees, probably the connections were the opposite. If not, then you must have some other problem. Try connecting TC+ and GND only, and leave "Vout" unconnected. Then try heating the tip with cigarette lighter. You should see the temperature rising on the display.

Both pots of the amplifier should be around the middle scale while you are doing this.

And again: R20 should be 7.5k, and C20 and C21 should not be connected.. I've updated the schematic with these changes.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: equalizor on August 23, 2015, 11:11:03 pm
I've disconnected the v out and heated the tip with my hot air tool, and got the correct reading with potr calibration against my multimeter with thermocouple.

But the temperature just rises and rises once I've connected v out.  No idea what's going on unless the mosfets are shot or something
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on August 24, 2015, 08:24:48 am
Look at the dot of the screen. If the dot blinks and finally turns off, but the temperature continues to rise, then there is a problem with MOSFETs ot their control circuitry.

Set the target temperature to 150 degrees, don't connect the Vout, start heating the tip with the lighter. The dot should glow at the beginning, then start to blink when you are near 150 degrees, and should turn off when the reading becomes more than 150 degrees. If it behaves this way, then there is a problem with MOSFETs or their control.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on August 25, 2015, 10:58:36 am
Nobody exported the BOM for this project?

edit: shit, forget this, I was in the wrong thread..
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: luklf01 on September 30, 2015, 11:33:07 am
[quote author="sparkybg"]Can you measure the voltage on RB3 terminal with oscilloscope?[/quote]
hello sparkybg
i also just finished soldering that controller , everything is connected maiboard + backboard transformer is used polish indel 24V finally when i power up it with hex loaded it beeps using buzzer for 1 second and that beeping sound going lower lower and dissapear also display is not working the pic controller got 5V supply the C8 capacitor 220uF 50V connected before LM2675M got 28V !
and also what the hell is the RB3 terminall to check ??!?!?! i have digitall oscilloscope and i can check this point too but no idea where is this point
thanks
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on September 30, 2015, 11:53:57 am
PB3(Port B, bit 3) termnal of the MCU should have "smashed" sine wave on it with amplitude of around 3.5-3.9V.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: luklf01 on September 30, 2015, 01:10:31 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]PB3(Port B, bit 3) termnal of the MCU should have "smashed" sine wave on it with amplitude of around 3.5-3.9V.[/quote]here is capture from that point using oscilloscope width = 10.70ms feq= 50.0hz
also why i got 28V on C8 capacitor if transformer have 24VAC and hakko tip should receive near that voltage too ?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on September 30, 2015, 01:38:05 pm
You should get something like this on RB3:
(http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=11597)


Don't worry for C8 votage - it is completely OK. This is more or less rectified AC voltage. 24VAC means 24*1.414=34V peak voltage. When you rectify this voltage, and put a filter capacitor after the rectifier you will get 34V on this filter capacitor (less 1-2 diode drops).

The tip is not connected to C8 - it gets unfiltered rectified voltage with the same RMS votage as transformer RMS votage. C8 is there only to provide votage for the LM chip, i.e. the power of the MCU and amplifiers. It has nothing to do with the heater of the iron.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: luklf01 on October 07, 2015, 10:36:15 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]You should get something like this on RB3:
(http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=11597)


Don't worry for C8 votage - it is completely OK. This is more or less rectified AC voltage. 24VAC means 24*1.414=34V peak voltage. When you rectify this voltage, and put a filter capacitor after the rectifier you will get 34V on this filter capacitor (less 1-2 diode drops).

The tip is not connected to C8 - it gets unfiltered rectified voltage with the same RMS votage as transformer RMS votage. C8 is there only to provide votage for the LM chip, i.e. the power of the MCU and amplifiers. It has nothing to do with the heater of the iron.[/quote]
hi
finally i flash correct hex file and station is working , but something is completly damaged or .. ?
when i put T12 tip and setup to 250C then temperature start rising and when it reach 250C it start going up 251C 252C 258C after start going down faster from 258C 250C and when it reach center point = 250C it drastically going down very fast to 200C then 150C
now... when i replace T12 handle with hakko 936 handle and when it reach for example 250C it going up and down + - 10C finally when i leave it hot and going to make coffe and back these jumps are stabilise and it jumping beetwen + - 1 - 3 C (this is happens only on 936 handle) on hakko T12 there are crazy things happend which i noticed at begin of that post
i did manipulate with VR2 and found that sometimes it helps to stabilise those temperature jumps (i guess is for calibrate reall temp equall to the LED temperature showed already right ? ) by manipulating VR1 i just calibrate temp. for hakko 937 handle
or maybe VR2 is for setup those temp. jumping case only ? not for calibrate..
can you help me with that ? thanks
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on October 07, 2015, 11:38:41 pm
For T12, set it at 350, then leave if for a while. It will stabilize in 20-30 seconds. When you put it next time if will stabilise faster. Some T12 behave strange on first heat up. Something in the tip needs to be heated up to 350 degrees at least one time tu function properly. Also, some T12 tips show erratic behavior and cannot stabilize at all. Try another tip, better with a different shape.

For Hakko 936, if you soldered C20 and C21 on the front PCB, remove them. It should work OK after the removal. Of course, you should uncomment the "25W ordynary iron with K thermocouple" in PID.h and comment the JBC C245 section, then recompile the firmware. If it still does not work, something is wrong with the hardware.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: luklf01 on October 08, 2015, 12:46:21 am
[quote author="sparkybg"]For T12, set it at 350, then leave if for a while. It will stabilize in 20-30 seconds. When you put it next time if will stabilise faster. Some T12 behave strange on first heat up. Something in the tip needs to be heated up to 350 degrees at least one time tu function properly. Also, some T12 tips show erratic behavior and cannot stabilize at all. Try another tip, better with a different shape.

For Hakko 936, if you soldered C20 and C21 on the front PCB, remove them. It should work OK after the removal. Of course, you should uncomment the "25W ordynary iron with K thermocouple" in PID.h and comment the JBC C245 section, then recompile the firmware. If it still does not work, something is wrong with the hardware.[/quote]
hold on
1. (or T12, set it at 350, then leave if for a while. It will stabilize in 20-30 seconds. When you put it next time if will stabilise faster. Some T12 behave strange on first heat up. Something in the tip needs to be heated up to 350 degrees at least one time tu function properly. Also, some T12 tips show erratic behavior and cannot stabilize at all. Try another tip, better with a different shape.) answer - i testing this on genuine hakko T12 spatula tips also on chinese one like T12-I and the window of rising/falling temperature is even wider on spatula original tips than chinese T12-I it goes up to 250C and going down to 150C faster up to 250C etc.
2. when i starting  screw VR1 potentiometer i changing the rising/falling time speed of temp. why ?
so what the hell for VR1 and VR2 ? for calibrate the tip or calibrate the rising/falling time temperature of tip ?
3. dont play with C files and manually compille it , just the second CX8 hex files loaded from downloaded files , maybe thats the problem with these crazy things happend ? and i need to fix this: (he "25W ordynary iron with K thermocouple" in PID.h and comment the JBC C245 section) ?
4. dont puts any C20 and C21 capacitor just all is equal 1:1 to latest schematic from yours first post i just modiffy the PCB to fit on crap AOYUE 2930 case
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on October 08, 2015, 09:17:06 am
Do you have the oscillogram I posted? If it look drastically different from my picture, you have a sync problem, and this behavior will be a result of it.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: luklf01 on October 08, 2015, 10:11:16 am
[quote author="sparkybg"]Do you have the oscillogram I posted? If it look drastically different from my picture, you have a sync problem, and this behavior will be a result of it.[/quote]
hi
previous oscilogram was from wrong hex file loaded to the station it wont display even :)
after i load second and it run like it run
anyway for now i does not have time to fighting with it maybe after 1 - 2 weeks i will compille firmware myself
check it also i will record video how it working and put here
one question to use with that station PACE TD100 handle tips do i need to modiffy something in pic code ? or it will run them correct without any modiffications ? these tips are 24V too ?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on October 08, 2015, 10:19:12 am
TD100 must run like Т12 without modifications. Although PACE tips have lower resistance, the controller does not have any problems driving them.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: luklf01 on October 09, 2015, 07:56:11 pm
@sparkybg
inside mine T12 handle there is a small tantalum capacitor soldered with power wires beetwen + and -
so maybe that capacitor cause all of these problems because you said the power for T12 tips must be recifited but not filtered  ? do i need to remove it ?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on October 09, 2015, 09:26:54 pm
Try to remove it. My handles for T12 does not have anything in them.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: luklf01 on October 09, 2015, 11:10:31 pm
ok i found the main problem
i could say the problem could be in my pcb design which is diffrent than @sparkybg but by comparing @equalizor videos i see the problem is here and here so
the calibration of VTC1 potentiometer working completly crazy than it should , why because lets say is calibration potentiometer of thermocouple then when i screw it to wrong position the station will display wrong temperature (not equal to the reall one) for example there will be there 250C but station will display 350C - right ? when i screw it to correct position it will display reall temp according to the tip temp. - this i have tested on crap chinese hakko T12 clone BAKON 950D everything is fine and correct and the jump of rising/failing offset is maximum +3 -3C like it should - same situation happend on VTC2 calibration for tips with separated thermocouple like 936 937 any of them calibration working perfect and temperature jumps are beetwen +3 -3C no matter on which position there is potentiometer setup it could be wrong setup or correct no matter
now where is the case:
by screwing the VTC1 thermocouple calibration potentiometer (is this reall calibration potentiometer ?) the temperature jumps changing drastically by depend on potentiometer setup for example:
we setup 350C on VTC1 but the reall temperature of tip is 250C - now when it reach that point it start jumping +10-50-100C -10-50-100C , then if we setup it near reall temp 250C then it jumps with its temperature from beetwen +10 -10C then if nearest temperature reached 1:1 equally to reall temp. then the jumps of temperatures stated below!
but in fact even with precise potentiometer we cant reach minimum temp. jumps equal to the crap chinese hakko T12 clone +3 -3C ;) station
why ? and why these crazy things with calibration happend no idea...
by removing that tantalic capacitor from handle the temperature jumps are faster
also i will record full videos soon with my tests
all tests i made on externall thermocouple connected to T12 tips externally today
regards
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on October 09, 2015, 11:27:44 pm
Both trimmers are just changing the gain of the amplifiers, nothing more. And yes, they are for calibration.

And yes, on some tips it jumps sometimes, but after some time (5-10 seconds) it must go and stay near the set temperature.

In you have changed something on the PCB, it can be a ground loop or something. I cannot comment anything but my design which i have working prototype of. Very small changes in the design, if not made properly, can cause problems with the ground loops an so on. And because you are measuring microvolts, these ground loops can cause even bigger jumps.

Again, if the oscillogram on the terminal I posted some posts ago is not looking like on my picture, sometihng is wrong. Did you corrected it. The whole controller depends on it.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: luklf01 on October 09, 2015, 11:43:38 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]Both trimmers are just changing the gain of the amplifiers, nothing more. And yes, they are for calibration.

And yes, on some tips it jumps sometimes, but after some time (5-10 seconds) it must go and stay near the set temperature.

In you have changed something on the PCB, it can be a ground loop or something. I cannot comment anything but my design which i have working prototype of. Very small changes in the design, if not made properly, can cause problems with the ground loops an so on. And because you are measuring microvolts, these ground loops can cause even bigger jumps.

Again, if the oscillogram on the terminal I posted some posts ago is not looking like on my picture, sometihng is wrong. Did you corrected it. The whole controller depends on it.[/quote]
there was a oscillogram from wrong hex file after i arrived pickit3 programmer i fastly writen it , it just start + beep and nothing more after after i found second hex file write it and station run so maybe these hex files also wrong and need to compille a whole of code myself no idea
there are two PIC18_C18 and PIC18_XC8 :)
but no matter , i am beginner with oscilloscope measurments i will connect now on PB3 point with it when station is working and make that measurment also
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on October 10, 2015, 12:02:50 am
The oscillogram only depends on hardware. Firmware/hex file has nothing to do with it. Firmware only depends on the signal on that terminal in order to work properly. No matter if it starts or not, it still will not work properly if the oscillogram is not right - it will switch the power on and off at the wrong moments, and the measurements of the temperature will be taken at the wrong moment.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: luklf01 on October 10, 2015, 12:21:02 am
[quote author="sparkybg"]The oscillogram only depends on hardware. Firmware/hex file has nothing to do with it. Firmware only depends on the signal on that terminal in order to work properly. No matter if it starts or not, it still will not work properly if the oscillogram is not right - it will switch the power on and off at the wrong moments, and the measurements of the temperature will be taken at the wrong moment.[/quote]
there we go

------------------------------
first hex was writen by my friend because i does not have pickit3 programmer after arrived i checked it just start + make one beep and nothing + previous oscilogram was made from that circuit
so for now you got the oscilogram by according to my notes in last post everything is working just the case is with VTC1 amplifier there is something wrong because the rising/faliing temp. shouldnt changed by variabling the calibration potentiometers never
sure my pcb could have a big glitch in circtuit :) why not but the @equalizer video did confirm my case he is use original pcb from yours project
now look to @equalizer youtube video you will coinformation to my posts about these temperature jumps depend on VTC1 setup it shouldnt never happen in that design , then no idea where is the error maybe is working for you fine and maybe there is error with some parts on schematic
for my understanding if by variabling VTC1 you wanna change the amplify range but in fact you change not only it but also the div time of frame between heating up tip and reading its details from its TC then that output circuit with amplifier working completly wrong
also i am just amateur maybe someone other in that thread could his own opinion about that :)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on October 10, 2015, 11:01:30 am
The oscillogram is OK.

If you mean this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rucjho7 ... e=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rucjho7USpk&feature=youtu.be)

It is clearly visible that there is a problem with the MOSFET there. The controller tries to switch off the MOSFET (the dot on the indicator stops to glow afte 300 degrees), but it still keeps heating up.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on October 31, 2015, 08:17:56 pm
i bought JBC CD-2BD, now i may continue work on  controlers for fun :D
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: overheater on November 29, 2015, 02:28:46 pm
Hi @ all,

during my search for a new diy solder-station I found this very interesting thread.

Before building this impressing station I wonder how good the T12 tips from China are? Are they worth to buy or is it better to take a original Hakko iron. I like to know how the behavior is during soldering and how long do they last - compared to a Hakko or a Weller or to a what else?

Please tell me your experiences.

best
Klaus
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on November 29, 2015, 02:51:56 pm
[quote author="overheater"]Hi @ all,

during my search for a new diy solder-station I found this very interesting thread.

Before building this impressing station I wonder how good the T12 tips from China are? Are they worth to buy or is it better to take a original Hakko iron. I like to know how the behavior is during soldering and how long do they last - compared to a Hakko or a Weller or to a what else?

Please tell me your experiences.

best
Klaus[/quote]

Hey are good enough for their price. And because original JBC is way better than original HAKKO, better get a JBC C245 instead. Or PACE TD100 - the tips are cheap - 11EUR per piece, more powerfull and more compact than HAKKO, but the iron handle is expensive - around 100EUR.

I am using C245 most of the time, and I am VERY happy with it.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on December 04, 2015, 04:15:00 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]

Hey are good enough for their price. And because original JBC is way better than original HAKKO, better get a JBC C245 instead. Or PACE TD100 - the tips are cheap - 11EUR per piece, more powerfull and more compact than HAKKO, but the iron handle is expensive - around 100EUR.

I am using C245 most of the time, and I am VERY happy with it.[/quote]


after a few weeks of using C245 i must say...last sentence is absolutely true... it is a absolutely brilliant handle, much much better than any HAKKO (maybe original the new one but it cost 4 times more)...

it worth any peny

you can see how fast is and how good is power transmission from handle to object here :

https://youtu.be/IMPuHNv7NsU (https://youtu.be/IMPuHNv7NsU)

https://youtu.be/frqf3Z3nFx0 (https://youtu.be/frqf3Z3nFx0)
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: neslekkim on December 04, 2015, 04:25:25 pm
Yes, they are amazing.
But the top line in the display, Levels, is that something new, or something you turned on ?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: mrjoda on December 04, 2015, 04:28:33 pm
latest firmware has in menu "Tools settings" function called "temp levels set". You can set up a three different (common used ) temperatures and fast switch between them... The response of tip is almost instant
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: radioelf on December 08, 2015, 11:46:40 pm
Hi.
Finally we it knows the type of thermocouple tip T12, or more information, tables, coefficients...,
Info. forum:
20uV by grade ?
17.4uV by grade ?
450°C  9mV ?
0-500°C  0.000-16.748mv ?
Thank
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Codrinbl on April 17, 2016, 09:14:52 am
Hy. Can you post a schematics of the tc reading op? I try to build a soldering station and I can't read the tc. I'm using a jbc t245, and atmega 328p. Please help my!!!
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: lsheng on April 26, 2016, 10:26:55 pm
T12 temperature coefficient is 23.3uV/C.
Reference is here.
patents/US6087631?dq=soldering+station+temperature+control&hl=zh-CN&sa=X&ei=231IVPaMOafriQL9_4C4Ag&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBDgU
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on April 26, 2016, 11:30:40 pm
Thanks.

So the TC it is Nickel-Kanthal D, maybe. :)

...but, according to the table in the document, it is more like 21uV/C. I am using something like 20uV/C in the latest version of my controller.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: drug123 on May 19, 2016, 01:46:26 pm
Short help request.
Does anyone has Chinese T12 tip clone on hands right now? Could you please measure and let me know resistance between tip terminals, small ones at the end and larger one (tip outer shell). There should be three measurements.
It would be much appreciated! Thank you and sorry for off-topic message, have no idea where question will be more appropriate.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: Ryan111 on July 19, 2016, 06:54:20 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]It is 1,2,5,6 on T210 and 1,2,5 on T245.
Connector 6 is for identification. There is direct connection with connector 5 on T210 and resistor on microtweezers there:
(http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=10998&mode=view)[/quote]

What's the point about that resistor?
I think my soldering hand piece doesn't have any resistor:

(http://http://img4.uplood.fr/free/50ur_20160719_205940.jpg)

I think that yellow component is a capacitor. am I right?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on July 19, 2016, 07:58:13 pm
[quote author="Ryan111"]
What's the point about that resistor?
I think my soldering hand piece doesn't have any resistor:
[/quote]
Identification. But I am not using it on this project.

[quote author="Ryan111"]
I think that yellow component is a capacitor. am I right?[/quote]
Yes, you are right. I think It will do no harm, so leave it there.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: starman52 on August 11, 2016, 09:48:34 pm
Going back in time ...

Looking at Diogo's project (page 13) - started actually :-)

Is it raw AC, raw DC or smoothed DC feed?

73
Nick
M0HGU
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: xdadu on September 24, 2016, 09:42:09 pm
Can someone please tell me what is the output level/degree for the C245 TC ?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: xdadu on October 17, 2016, 01:46:03 pm
I found is something around 20uV, I will measure exactly later .
I am trying to do my own driver for C245. For first tests I use old LM358 with reading every zero cross. Is a little unstable on one reading, but with average of last 5 or 10 readings is ok. I buy a MCP6V02 to do best but, strange, is dont work at all, much bad than 358. Readings is very unstable, it looks like auto zero function disturb my read, I gues.
On a linear clasic amplification test on breadboard, looks good, A.O. is functioning. Schematic around A.O. is like sparkybg project. Wha I do wrong? I allready order a MCP6022, but I am still thinking at 6V02.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on October 17, 2016, 02:08:45 pm
Something in your design is wrong. MCP6V02 has nothing to do with your measurements. There are several things around zero cross that you should have in mind when you are measuring there. There's much noise there, and the noise is different when the power was ON and OFF in the previous cycle. Look at the movies I've uploaded to Youtuve - the voltage you read directly from the TC is not clean at all it needs some processing and filtering. I am filtering with IIR filter, and I am removing the difference when power was on and off. In the last (the more complex version from the other thread) version, I am using wave shaping  to remove the peaks, and I put a valley of around 5V on the rectified voltage around zero crossing, because rectified voltage changes pretty quick around zero cross (the voltage gradient is larger there, and fast changing between + and -) and penetrates through MOSFET-s drain-source capacitance into the measurements.

In short - measuring milli-microvolts around zero cross of 24V rectified AC is not an easy task at all. I've spent many hours refining it, and had to make 5 versions of the controller to be able to say that my measurements are correct enough.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: stazis on October 21, 2016, 06:07:44 pm
Hello,
I want to buy a PCB if it is available for this project.
Please contact me.
Thank you!
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: randomone on October 26, 2016, 01:08:32 am
I built one of these projects a little while ago but never used it before V5 came out. I now have a use for it and want to check I have the connections correct. Does the attached image look right ?

[attachment=0]

Also both the Thermocouple connector (J7) and the Iron Vout connector (J2) have a GND pin, do I only use the Iron connector (J2) GND pin ?
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: sparkybg on October 26, 2016, 09:12:20 am
I think they are correct. Just pay attention when you plug the tip for the first time and be ready to switch it off.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: randomone on October 27, 2016, 01:57:18 am
Confirmed, JBC, and Hakko both work as per the diagram.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: gugol on November 29, 2018, 10:23:11 am
Hello,

I found this very interesting project, I read all the posts as well as the ones for the Unisolder 5.2.
This last one is really amazing but too complex and expensive for me, so I would like to understand if it stills makes sense to do this small one today. I plan to use only T12  and maybe the JBC T245 tips.
I would like also to get the gerber files (and BOM) of this one, because I don't have the Altium license.
Can anyone help me for that?

Thanks
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: gugol on April 28, 2019, 08:57:33 am
PCB arrived. Start populating
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: gugol on June 17, 2019, 08:54:21 pm
https://youtu.be/71eUFuugHyw (https://youtu.be/71eUFuugHyw)

The standby feature can be easily done without any sensor, grounding the tip and connecting the holder to the pulled-up microcontroller input.
Title: Re: My HAKKO classic and T12/T15 soldering controller
Post by: cobramostar on January 19, 2020, 11:34:05 pm
how i can buy this PCB and work with sparkybg fw ? ? ?

by