If there is enough demand for these cheap tools, I could do a group buy on regular trips to Shenzhen and send things back. Just a thought. Could help me get the stuff I like cheaper too.
Can be interesting, but how about fund transfers?
Paypal or wire, depending on how you roll. Since I really wouldn't expect to make any money on the deal, just have fun, I would ask everyone to account for all fees, etc, probably.
Here's what I posted in a comment on a blog:
That would be the idea. I’d gather orders for stuff I like from distributors I have a relationship with and try to get a deal. Stuff would go over to Susie Shipper and go direct to the participants. Import and local regulatory requirements are entirely on you.
There are a couple reasons I think it could be cool. First, I seemed to get really great prices on stuff that is difficult to find online (and that I really like, such as the reflow oven) and could pass that on while building better relationships with the distributors and shippers. Second, if we all kind of standardize on a few cheap (hackable?) tools we can share updates and hacks within the community. Finally, if I can pool enough orders maybe I can pay for these ludicrous commutes to China every (few) months (at least the visa fees!) :D
Adding, shipping would be a pain. Under 20KG it’s freaking expensive (say $100 minimum per order), but at 21 it drops to $70 total and climbs much slower. It’s really best if you get reflow oven plus solder dispenser plus hot plate plus board heater plus etc. That way it gets to the 20KG mark. Stuff is so cheap it really pays for itself though.
I forgot to mention also - you have someone on that end inspecting and testing each unit. That way we can weed out baddies and also you don't get (hopefully!) factory seconds like you do on Aliexpress, Taobao, and eBay (especially!).
Another thing is it might need to be invitation only (I'm looking at you Tayken :P just kidding)... I can't replace stuff or be liable for damages, so it would have to be with friends who trusted me to do my best to get them something cheap and send it on. You order insurance on full replacement value (and the customs consequences, which vary so much by country it would also be up to you) - or - accept the risk of not insuring it full value and letting the shipper determine the replacement value based on customs code (or whatever the heck it is they do that results in such low valuation). That's the only way I can imagine doing it because I can't exactly pop back and do a return, and if I'm doing a favor for someone it's kinda crappy if they then want me to cover a broken tool.
Awesome idea, and if we can support DP by buying cheap tools it would be even better. Of course you wouldn't be liable for the tools, that goes without saying.
Participants living in the EU could also pool their orders and then split them up locally - shipping is usually inexpensive and customs are only paid once.
Hi Ian, big fan of your site. I would definitely be interested in a group buy.
Ken
Cool. Sounds interesting
would be interested in this. Reflow oven would be cool to have.
Ian, I am a big fan of group buys. One group that does this effectively online is 43oh (http://www.43oh.com/ (http://www.43oh.com/) ).
The thing about group buys (at least how they do it) is that one knows about what is being purchased and has seen it discussed in the forums before one signs up. One can ask questions about the item in the forums etc. That is much better that simply buying a pig in a poke.
On a related note, what you are doing is far better that most group buys in that you have purchased, used and reviewed the equipment already. Have you considered writing a book on how to setup a small production facility at home? In other words getting a reflow oven, pick & place, design tools (Eaglecad or whatever), laser cutter etc and making them all work together?
If one could buy the book plus the items described in it this would be a great case of the whole being worth more than the sum of the parts.
Hi there!!
Thanks for your offering Ian, here at Spain we have little or no options to buy at a reasonable price, and I must admit that I feel jealous of how you manage to move easily and confident around Shenzen/China/India/wherever, it seems easy, but I can't imagine myself bargaining in Chinese ;) .
My experience with China is sourcing components through ebay or buying to dx, so sometimes could be a lottery. So if you're kind enough to do that for us, I think that a lot of people is going to really appreciate it. About your responsibility over the goods, look your last video unboxing the reflow oven, even for your own purchases you can't control that, overseas shipment is another lotto.
So, count with me for at least a reflow oven and the dual head smd pick and place, at least ;).
All the best, beth.
Ian, that would be so much help. As above, knows more about the units in advance is so so useful.
I think I'd be interested in the cheaper stuff, oven, paste dispenser, vacuum pen. Might be able to get the local hackspace involved too
As you mentioned, it would be great for a few of us to have these same models so we can sort out their quirks.
I know i`m new here but i could be interested in a few things and i would happly accept your terms Ian as others have said there would be a better chance of a good product from you than just some random seller on ebay.
Thanks
Mick
Have you considered writing a book on how to setup a small production facility at home? In other words getting a reflow oven, pick & place, design tools (Eaglecad or whatever), laser cutter etc and making them all work together?
I need to figure it out myself first :) Will be blogging and writing tutorials, etc though.
For example, today I got the air compressor for the paste dispenser but had a nozzle problem (doesn't fit, no adapters available locally on a saturday afternoon, man I miss the convenience of China!). Sorted that with a potentially deadly hack, but then for the life of me I can't get any paste to come out, even at max PSI. Guessing the syringe is over full. I still have a lot to learn :)
I must admit that I feel jealous of how you manage to move easily and confident around Shenzen/China/India/wherever, it seems easy, but I can't imagine myself bargaining in Chinese ;) .
Its only possible with the help of a huge community of amazing hackers! This was also my 4th trip to Shenzhen in the last year and the first where I managed to accomplish anything productive, I feel like a bit of a looser :)
I think you need to generate a table.
Items, cost, weight/shipping.
Yes that is kicking around my head too. Each participant can fill it up and also create a commercial invoice with customs values according to local regulations. I need to check with Akiba and Bunnie about some more minor stuff like soldering irons and hot air stations. Akiba took a dozen back, and Bunnie buys a specific one every time and ditches it in the hotel room. I didn't get that stuff, but would be good to include on the list.
1USD= ~6.2rmb
1EUR=~9rmb
Stuff I bought:IR oven small (Qinsi 5100, or Atten if I can find it) 1400rmb 12kg
IR oven large (Qinsi 5180C ) 2400rmb (??) 20-30kg
946A Hot plate (Atten/Qwik/Aoyue/generic) ~300rmb 2kg
853 Board preheater (Atten/Qwik/generic) ~300rmb 2kg
983A/986A solder paste dispenser (no-name) ~320rmb 1kg
Dual head vacuum pickup two (no name) ~50-100rmb (sorry no receipt to check) <1kg
Stainless steel solder paste spreader 15rmb <1kg
Test rigs (custom build) 500rmb 1kg
RGB LED 5meter reel with adhesive back 58rmb
White LED 5meter reel with adhesive back 60rmb
Street paving bricks (2) 10rmb
Other stuff (will need to photograph and get the details, did not buy this stuff myself):Digital soldering station (Atten/Qwik/Best/generic)
852 Digital hot air rework tool (Atten/Qwik/Best/generic)
Stereo microscope (maybe not the best for solder, not tried) ~500-600rmb
Lighted magnifiers (large on an arm, Arakis liked these) 100-200rmb
TM220A Dual head pick and place ($3420 + $240 shipping, forget the RMB price)
Solder paste stencil thing (holds the frame and board)
Maybe the Stencil8 system boards and pegs?
Ultrasonic bath (various)
Solder pots (various)
Atten or other 100mhz digital capture O-scope "toy" (got one for $350 shipped on ebay)
Shipping by FedEx to EU is $100 for first 20kg (approx). Bulk is cheaper - 26rmb for 20kg+, 24rmb for 50kg+. Yes, its $20 cheaper to ship 21kg than 20kg.
I'm open to suggestions as long as I can get the stuff and test it, and it has wide appeal. These are the things that have always been on my list. With the pick and place you're really much better off just going through the factory though, they are not in Shenzhen.
The shipper is super paranoid about mailing knock-offs and copy products. I will not be able to send Hakko, Fluke, or other branded stuff, even if it is "genuine", the shipper won't allow it.
I think you could probably "fill in" a hobby SMT line at home or a hackerspace for around $500 (sans PnP). That's basically what I did. Most already have soldering irons and standard stuff, this is getting all the cool toys I've never had much hands-on time with.
Bonus note: if you want to feel like you're a huaqiangbei expert you can say "kwhy" (sounds like Kaua'i without the glottal stop) instead of RMB or Yaun (pronounced Yen, i guess).
That all sounds good, do you have a maximum order or could we order as much as we wanted. Also I would be happy if needed to redistribute items for UK Buyers if they only want to order smaller amounts within reason and if Ian is ok with what you want.
Mick
Good day Ian,
It is fantastic that you are considering to be the liaison between us out in the West and Shenzen, however, I think others and yourself need to consider the time and effort on your side to package and re-ship the items to us. It takes a lot of effort to ship items let alone the time to create the proper export documents that you would have to generate... otherwise items could be stuck in the destination Country awaiting you (the shipper) to generate the appropriate docs...which will consume more of your time. There will be a lot of effort on your side beyond the purchasing of the gear that you and others should be aware of and I think that you may need to include some extra $$$ for your efforts... I prepare and ship a number of goods on a regular basis and I am constantly amazed at how much time this all takes... Just saying...
Cheers,
Sam
i dont think it will be like that what i think he is on about doing is sourcing and buying the stuff if enough people want a certain thing then the seller sends it to a shipper and then sends to us so basically he is just looking about for things he wants and can haggle for better prices for himself and us. so in a way he will be getting something, the products he wants cheaper than normal and maybe a better relation with the sellers and shippers. as long as we all understand that there might be some issues out of his control and not bitch about things if something does not go exactly to plan things should work out nice for everyone.
But still i would be happy to make a donation on top for ians time and knowledge.
Mick
I'm definitely interested in the group buy, will it be open to anyone?
It takes a lot of effort to ship items let alone the time to create the proper export documents that you would have to generate... otherwise items could be stuck in the destination Country awaiting you (the shipper) to generate the appropriate docs...
The sellers and shippers do handle most of this, the rest will be participants' responsibility. My name will be nowhere associated with the shipment, and I can't deal with various local customs and import schemes.
The one required document is a usually a commercial invoice. I'll provide a spreadsheet for choosing what you want, then it is your responsibility to add the customs declaration name/value/ and optionally international customs codes directly on the spreadsheet. The shipper will then work with that info. Or you can leave that entirely to the shipping company if your customs process is that flexible (mine is).
As BinaryG said, I'm looking for experience, to build relationships, and wield more negotiating power than my cash alone. However there will be a lot of fees associated with paypal, international wires to my Bank of China account (and US paperwork depending on the amount), hiring the cart kids to move stuff around, etc. I will have to find a way to recoup that.
I'm also going to be pretty brutal about who participates the first time I try this. Preference will go to people with an established relationship to the site, and it can't get out of control. That means limited number of participants, trusted participants, firm order cutoffs and payment dates, and no last minute changes. I'll have to collect payment and get it pushed to China somehow, and it isn't as easy as just walking to an ATM for the amounts involved. I'll be in China March 28th-April 22nd though, so that should give a good chunk of time to get everything worked out.
I'm dying to get my hands on a solder paste dispenser and a vacuum pen. I'd be extremely grateful if you do put together such a group buy. :)
Here is a little free tool that can help calculate what customs charges you might have to pay if you are involved in import/export to and from most countries http://www.dutycalculator.com/ (http://www.dutycalculator.com/) i have used for sending and receiving many times and it is normally right or very close to the real cost.
Mick
[quote author="ian"]I'll provide a spreadsheet for choosing what you want, then it is your responsibility to add the customs declaration name/value/ and optionally international customs codes directly on the spreadsheet.
As BinaryG said, I'm looking for experience, to build relationships, and wield more negotiating power than my cash alone. However there will be a lot of fees associated with paypal, international wires to my Bank of China account (and US paperwork depending on the amount), hiring the cart kids to move stuff around, etc. I will have to find a way to recoup that.[/quote]
Perhaps people should be wiring directly to your china account (or do you get charged a per wire rx fee?). This might be less hassle and would avoid a double currency exchange loss for some. Paypal's forex rates are atrocious.
Cheers,
Tom
I don't know yet :) I called my local branch of Bank of China, and it turns out they are completely separate from the one in China and have no info on wire transfers, online banking, deposits, etc.
Hm, my friend says that there are an bank called ICBC that would be better, but I'm not sure though.
one way to save on Paypal fees is if people transfer money from their bank to their Paypal account then send the money as a personal transfer using the gift option also this option allows the sender to pay the fees before hand to avoid confusion i think but i just noticed their might be a cross boarder fee of 0.4% - 1.5% for the UK and 0.5% - 2% in the US if using paypal balance or bank transfer depending on where the money is sent from it is much higher for card payments. look here for more info US version (http://https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/paypal-fees) UK Version (http://https://www.paypal-business.co.uk/notifications/uk-business-fee-changes-2011/index.htm#currency-conversion)
This is great, I was just worrying about all of the different IR Oven specs on ebay and aliexpress. I have been using my Atten 1102 DSO for months now (via aliexpress). But I didn't know enough about the ovens to risk it. I would be grateful to entrust Ian's experience with my cash for smt tools as well.
Definitely sounds interesting. Thanks for putting yourself out there for us Ian!
[quote author="ian"]I don't know yet :) I called my local branch of Bank of China, and it turns out they are completely separate from the one in China and have no info on wire transfers, online banking, deposits, etc.[/quote]
These links look useful.
http://www.theswiftcodes.com/china-bank-of-china/ (http://www.theswiftcodes.com/china-bank-of-china/)
81. BANK OF CHINA SHENZHEN (SHENZHEN BRANCH) BKCHCNBJ45A
Perhaps try a small transfer to see if it works?
*edit*
More at http://davidwei.org/doc/wiringMoney.htm (http://davidwei.org/doc/wiringMoney.htm)
eg. via NYC.
http://www.bocusa.com/portal/Info?id=443&lang=1& (http://www.bocusa.com/portal/Info?id=443&lang=1&)
If you want me to give this a try from my xetrade account, pm the account details, you can repay me in pcb coupons ;-)
[quote author="TomKeddie"]Perhaps people should be wiring directly to your china account (or do you get charged a per wire rx fee?). [/quote]
I was living in Shanghai last year and opened a BOC account and successfully transferred (just a bank to bank account transfer using my online banking - not actually wiring) living/rent $$ several times from Australia. BOC does not charge fees for these transfers, not even fees to convert currencies, only charge via exchange rate. This used to be actually beneficial but recent general banking changes mean that things are no longer tied to $US, so this might change a bit - I have not run into the new changes yet.
For me, the best option was to send from my Aussie bank in Aussie $, then convert via BOC, however you need to be aware that most if not all $$ go via a third party exchange bank (I think Duestche ... - can try and look up if you need) and "no one" has control over the fees they charge. I have not noticed any major fees from this intermediary - but of course this might change with different source country/bank.
The BOC online banking tool is OK, except that they force you to install security software and force you to use IE.
Thanks for the info TomKeddie - I also have an xe.com account for making foreign wires. When you originally posted I thought you wrote Xtrade, and used a different but similar service :) I'd be happy to have you foot the $22 wire fee, but at this point I can't actually access my balance in the account so we wouldn't know the status until March when I am back in Shenzhen :D I'll see if I can work out online banking before I go back. Which leads to:
The BOC online banking tool is OK, except that they force you to install security software and force you to use IE.
This was a show stopper for me. I saw that and installed virtualbox so it's not running on my main system. Have not gone back to get it going though.
[quote author="ian"]I don't know yet :) I called my local branch of Bank of China, and it turns out they are completely separate from the one in China and have no info on wire transfers, online banking, deposits, etc.[/quote]
I guess this means I can't fly to BOC in NY and open an account that would work directly on TaoBao, huh?
Not that I know of.
Im in for a hot plate.
Hi there, Ian.
I'd like to jump in on this one as well. I don't need a solder-paste dispenser system (got 2 already) but I'd be up for things like the hot plate / preheater and perhaps a small to medium size reflow oven. I'd have to look at what else would be readily available before deciding on other items.
Customs should be fairly easy - if the package is shipped via FedEx, they usually do the customs stuff for us (at least for shipments to and from the USA into Canada). If not, we have a customs broker set up to handle truck freight and UPS shipments - they have also handled PCB shipments from China to us so there should be no problems.
Payment via PayPal or Wire Transfer is easy for us. Wire transfer is especially easy and relatively inexpensive if the funds are in US dollars.
Anyway, I'd love to participate in this venture.
Many thanks!
dwayne
*bump*
This thread seems to have gone quiet, I'm still very interested.
Cheers,
Tom
[quote author="TomKeddie"]This thread seems to have gone quiet, I'm still very interested.[/quote]
Likewise. But I think that Ian has been / is traveling.
Ian - I had asked NeoDen about the cost of the T-962A SMT reflow oven. They quoted US $689, which included shipping to Canada. I find that to be high, compared to the about $500 cost (including shipping) if I were to purchase it from eBay. This is obviously a case where price negotiation is important.
For that matter, Ian, don't you have a T-962A oven? I can't tell from the photos that you've published, but it sure looks similar to what I see on the NeoDen website. If you *do* have a T-962A or similar oven, what did it cost you?
Anyway, I also am very interested if anything comes of this group purchase.
dwayne
Just back to the office now, sorry. A few things are happening:
1. Some people already have a limited order form. These are just a very few close friends and long-time drinking buddies who don't give a damn if something turns up worthless or broken. This is a variant of the face to face only sourcing club some people are tossing around last time I was in shenzhen. I'm getting feedback first, before making something public.
2. There will be an order form with 5-10 items released before I go to Shenzhen next on the 29th. That will go only to people who read the rules, sign a waver and fax it to me. Seriously. The flood of inquiries about the PnP and other tools has been amazing and cool, but I'm not equipped for this so it's totally overwhelming. I'm not going to profit from this, so I only want serious inquiries from interested hackers who want to tinker with the tools. This is not a commercial offering. Things may only be sold as a set, there may be a 20KG requirement (or additional $200 shipping fee), etc.
I try to respond to every single comment, email and post, eventually. I feel like a jerk, but I cannot and will not respond to any inquiries such as:
"How much will X and Y cost shipped to Z?" I have no idea! The only way I find out is standing in a muddy alley in China handing boxes over to tapers. There will be some guidelines and estimates, but nothing even close to a shipping table.
"I want X, but not Y, can you just send me X?" Things may be sold in sets to simplify bargaining. If they are, I refuse to unbundle things due to the tracking, packing, and shipping logistics. It would be a nightmare standing in that alley processing orders. That is not what shippers row is for, I'm woefully under equipped to do that, and it's generally uncool. Plenty of ebay, taobao, and aliexpress sellers are setup for that, use them! They will charge you for that convenience/service. I'm just a guy carting some stuff across the market.
"Payment is by X, but I only have Y" "Can I pay by credit card" "Can I have an invoice". Sorry, not a chance. Payment may be by wire to my personal Bank of China account, that is the dead easiest way. I have no desire to track and pool orders and wire the money myself, and paypal is expensive in fees, and I have to move the money to a bank before I can make a wire, then I have to keep track of it all. No way. If this sounds shady, get it from a reputable source. I discourage you from wiring money to a Chinese bank account of some random dude you don't know (me), it's a bad idea! See #1 above.
There will be an FAQ. I'm really sorry, but anyone who asks questions from the FAQ will be automatically excluded from the first buy. It's the only conceivable way I can see to keep it manageable.
3. If things go well, I may do a second buy. Beyond that, Seeed may release a DP documented and co-branded line of stuff I find in the market. Infrastructure can be put in place to move money, process orders, calculate shipping, track handling, etc. But I have NONE of that right now. It's just a dude in a muddy alley in China with a cart.
I really really want to make everyone happy, but I also have a ton of stuff to get done in Shenzhen and can't track and fill orders for a week gratis, then follow up on a lot of it. My idea of good scale is 5-10 items range - I can get a deal on 10 ovens, 10 dispensers, etc.
That got a bit epic, sorry. I have been thinking about this while traveling this past week and needed to type it out.
I can imagine it is a nightmare. Good luck with it!
It's just common sense.
Cheers.
yes, no problem with this, but as of shipping costs, some guestimates would be nice, but I guess for me, europe is close enough, i guess it will be in the ballpark of what the cost can end up in.
Ian,
Well spoken and well thought out. As crazy as it sounds, I wish I could be in that alley helping, need to wait until the kids are older.
Packages are definitely the go, will categorize the freight and the packing to a small number of options.
I'm with you on learning Chinese, I had a lot of fun on TaoBao recently but some Chinese would help.
Cheers,
Tom
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Longtime stalker, first time poster.
Just so you know Ian,
I am all for a group buy. I'll purchase whatever package deal you guys work out.
I will agree to whatever payment terms you come up with.
I think Ian's character is well enough known to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Thanks for trying to help out all the small makers. The ones who are trying to build the next big thing on a shoe-string budget in a basement lab.
Failsafe
Quick update: I see my 3 weeks in china is now enough, so I am leaving next Tuesday (19th) and will stay until May. That should give plenty of time to work this out, including getting stuff in stock at Seeed. I'll be back here with details probably Thursday, my first full day in China.
Hi Ian:
New poster here -- love DP and all that you guys do.
Sounds like you are offshore and perhaps not watching this thread anymore, but what is the chance of there being another group pnp buy? I have almost convinced myself that I need a TM240A (bumping the eos 5d mk III off my wish list for this year).
thx. gil smith
any development on this?
Have some cravings ;)
I'm looking to buy a TM220A PnP. Is there interest in another group buy?
I am interested in one (probably the 240), but I don't think Ian plans to do any further procurement. Seeed Studio is apparently planning to carry them, but I have not seen them show up there yet, nor do I know what kind of pricing they will have. If they offer them a a decent price (and don't gouge like some aliexpress prices I have seen), and their shipping is reasonable, Seeed will be a good trusted source. But then again the machines are still not available there yet.
gil
I am trying to contact some friends in Shanghai also, to see if they can arrange something. I just got back from China a few months ago, but I didn't need one then.
I've had my buddy in Shanghai try to contact this company about purchasing one and sending it to the USA. They didn't seem interested in giving any discount and included a 17% VAT on top of the price.
I'm not understanding the 17% tax. The USA doesn't have a VAT nor does China. I've sent a PM to Ian, but I haven't gotten any answer. Has anyone else run into this?
I'm ending up having to buy on Aliexpress.
no joy here. :-(
Hey mplafleur:
Which machine did you get? How much did your machine end up costing on aliexpress, with extra fees and shipping etc?
I am still on the fence, and was waiting to see what seeed would do, but they have not offered them yet.
gil