Dangerous Prototypes

General Category => Tools of the trade => Topic started by: matseng on December 18, 2012, 05:29:05 am

Title: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: matseng on December 18, 2012, 05:29:05 am
Now this is something I very well could consider purchasing. 

A tabletop dual head P&P for about USD 3600 that does down to 0402 and more than 6000 parts per hour. 15 tape autofeeders are  included....

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=19322348120 (http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=19322348120)

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Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sqkybeaver on December 18, 2012, 06:32:42 am
who do i have to bribe to get one?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: matseng on December 18, 2012, 07:28:10 am
[quote author="sqkybeaver"]who do i have to bribe to get one?[/quote]
Your wife or your banker depending on who is managing your wallet :-)

It doesn't have any vision system,  but for passives and soic's that should be ok...  Compressors and vacuum units plus the software is included.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on December 18, 2012, 08:30:51 am
[quote author="matseng"]
Your wife or your banker depending on who is managing your wallet :-)[/quote]
This seems to be universal ;-)

The head on this is really interesting (molded plastic?).
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on December 18, 2012, 09:33:20 am
Wow! Are you going to try it? Usually I can find someone's forum post on the cheap low-end stuff (reflow ovens, etc). I don't see anything for this.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tayken on December 18, 2012, 12:45:46 pm
Funny thing is it shows up as 22800 yen on my browser, are we certain that the prices are in yuans? If it is yen, it is nothing!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sqkybeaver on December 18, 2012, 04:32:39 pm
[quote author="tayken"]Funny thing is it shows up as 22800 yen on my browser, are we certain that the prices are in yuans? If it is yen, it is nothing![/quote]

if it can be bought for 22k yen , ill send someone 44k yen and they can keep one!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sam512bb on December 18, 2012, 06:53:51 pm
Thanks for posting!

This looks like a great product for us to use for prototyping and/or small test boards (i.e. < 10 or so pieces).  I have been looking for a while and the closest I could find was the one from Madell... but it is priced at $7500 on Ebay...It looks like a solid unit and it does include optical positioning/training.  Three are a few u-tube videos of it working, but it is pricey for our needs.  The unit posted here is certainly within our budget...  Does anyone have a link to the manufacturer site, etc?  The link presented is not in English and so it makes it tough for me to determine how to order and/or to obtain more info.

Cheers,

Sam
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on December 18, 2012, 07:36:49 pm
Hi Sam, welcome to DP!

[quote author="sam512bb"]The link presented is not in English and so it makes it tough for me to determine how to order and/or to obtain more info.[/quote]

taobao is...special...

From what I understand, you'll have to buy through an importer (and use a translator to read the product page).  Google translate didn't seem to do very well when I tried it, though.

Here's some background/experiences with taobao (I don't have any first hand):
* DP intro (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/2012/08/16/taobao-cheap-electronics-components/)
* matseng's orignal post (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4419)
* DP's experience with taobao (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/2012/10/02/shopping-taobao-our-first-steps/)

I realize that doesn't help too much, but at least you'll get an idea of how to go about buying one.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Royce on December 18, 2012, 08:24:43 pm
This is quite an interesting product!

Sam, if you do buy one, please let us know how it works!

Looking at the photograph, however, I see steppers and belts and other relatively mundane equipment. Every hobby PnP I have ever seen appeared to be constructed similarly but was far, far slower than this device. What's the secret sauce to such speed?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sjaak on December 18, 2012, 08:32:46 pm
I dunno if you want to purchase such an expense through taobao :) One of the downsides is many photos and datasheets are not right or optimistic :D However some taobao agents offer the service to check the goods and email you pictures of what they receive from the seller. Prolly they cant check if the machine is working as you expect it :) Please

For translating I personally use chrome as it happens on the fly.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sam512bb on December 18, 2012, 11:14:31 pm
[quote author="bearmos"]Hi Sam, welcome to DP!

[quote author="sam512bb"]The link presented is not in English and so it makes it tough for me to determine how to order and/or to obtain more info.[/quote]

taobao is...special...

From what I understand, you'll have to buy through an importer (and use a translator to read the product page).  Google translate didn't seem to do very well when I tried it, though.

Here's some background/experiences with taobao (I don't have any first hand):
* DP intro (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/2012/08/16/taobao-cheap-electronics-components/)
* matseng's orignal post (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4419)
* DP's experience with taobao (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/2012/10/02/shopping-taobao-our-first-steps/)

I realize that doesn't help too much, but at least you'll get an idea of how to go about buying one.[/quote]

Good day Bearmos,

Thanks for the info and links.  This helps a lot.

Most appreciated!

Cheers,

Sam
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sam512bb on December 18, 2012, 11:22:09 pm
[quote author="Royce"]This is quite an interesting product!

Sam, if you do buy one, please let us know how it works!

Looking at the photograph, however, I see steppers and belts and other relatively mundane equipment. Every hobby PnP I have ever seen appeared to be constructed similarly but was far, far slower than this device. What's the secret sauce to such speed?[/quote]

Good day Royce,

Indeed if I move forward on this I will post my experience.  Like I said I am still deciding what to do.  Although I have found a few firms here in Canada that specialize in low volume assembly and pricing/delivery is not too bad.  Interestingly, these firms usually have access or have factories in China for assembly... so if the volumes are at a certain level or larger, then the kit is sent to their overseas factory... Locally (i.e. in my City), the cost for low volume assembly is quite high to the point where I can buy the Madell unit for less than two low volume assembly runs done here...hence the reason I am exploring my options...

As for this device's speed? ... Indeed 6000 cph seems pretty high... the Madel unit quotes 1800 cph

Cheers,

Sam
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on December 19, 2012, 04:48:34 am
[quote author="sam512bb"]
Thanks for the info and links. This helps a lot.Most appreciated![/quote]
No problem!  I'm glad it helped.

To put the rest of this post in context - I'm definitely not trying to talk you out of this. . .

[quote author="sam512bb"]the cost for low volume assembly is quite high to the point where I can buy the Madell unit for less than two low volume assembly runs done here...hence the reason I am exploring my options...[/quote]
You probably already realize this, but do factor in your time paying the PCB populating learning curve.  Most of the setup fees the pro shops are quoting are NRE (usually a few hundred for a local board shop and a few hundred for SMD stencils/tooling/programming, etc).  The small DIY-ish crowd can certainly get stencils made less expensively, but it's definitely low volume.

If you search for rsdio and PnP in this forum, you'll probably find some earlier discussions on PnP in-house assembly vs electronic contract manufacturers (ECM's).  The consensus is, if you're being paid engineering wages for your time, it's probably wise to get an ECM to do the work for you since you'll wind up with a better quality product earlier and (depending on the quality of the ECM) much less of a headache.  I agree with this for medium and high volumes.  However, if you're doing "high mix / low volume", it'll probably be extremely hard to justify the cost of sending something out of house to be made - unless you've already worked the expense into the contract (if it's contract work).

All that being said - I certainly wouldn't mind having a PnP sitting on one of my benches/floor ;-)

Lots to consider..
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: kineteka on December 19, 2012, 05:04:53 pm
We are seriously considering importing these and reselling them.

How many of you guys would be interested?

-Mike
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: matseng on December 19, 2012, 05:15:51 pm
[quote author="Royce"]Looking at the photograph, however, I see steppers and belts and other relatively mundane equipment. Every hobby PnP I have ever seen appeared to be constructed similarly but was far, far slower than this device. What's the secret sauce to such speed?[/quote]
I think that having a double head would help increasing the speed a lot. It can pick up two parts before traveling the long way back to the pcb.

Also, most homebrews are based on CNC machines or possibly have too much of "CNC thinking" in the minds of the designers. CNC's are more of a slow and powerful breed since they need to lug around a big and heavy spindle-motor. A P&P only need to handle sub-gram parts with a lightweight vacuum pickup head, they can be built for much higher traveling speed and accelerations.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sqkybeaver on December 19, 2012, 05:17:58 pm
[quote author="kineteka"]We are seriously considering importing these and reselling them.

How many of you guys would be interested?

-Mike[/quote]I don't see myself buying one. The majority of things i assemble are one off projects. i have no real need for PnP
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sam512bb on December 19, 2012, 05:51:21 pm
[quote author="bearmos"][quote author="sam512bb"]
Thanks for the info and links. This helps a lot.Most appreciated![/quote]
No problem!  I'm glad it helped.

To put the rest of this post in context - I'm definitely not trying to talk you out of this. . .

[quote author="sam512bb"]the cost for low volume assembly is quite high to the point where I can buy the Madell unit for less than two low volume assembly runs done here...hence the reason I am exploring my options...[/quote]
You probably already realize this, but do factor in your time paying the PCB populating learning curve.  Most of the setup fees the pro shops are quoting are NRE (usually a few hundred for a local board shop and a few hundred for SMD stencils/tooling/programming, etc).  The small DIY-ish crowd can certainly get stencils made less expensively, but it's definitely low volume.

If you search for rsdio and PnP in this forum, you'll probably find some earlier discussions on PnP in-house assembly vs electronic contract manufacturers (ECM's).  The consensus is, if you're being paid engineering wages for your time, it's probably wise to get an ECM to do the work for you since you'll wind up with a better quality product earlier and (depending on the quality of the ECM) much less of a headache.  I agree with this for medium and high volumes.  However, if you're doing "high mix / low volume", it'll probably be extremely hard to justify the cost of sending something out of house to be made - unless you've already worked the expense into the contract (if it's contract work).

All that being said - I certainly wouldn't mind having a PnP sitting on one of my benches/floor ;-)

Lots to consider..[/quote]

Good day Bearmos,

Thank you for your response!

Indeed, lots to consider.  I am quite happy using a ECM... but we have problems here in Western Canada (Alberta to be specific), where the cost and time to do things is very problematic.  For example  ECM NRE costs vary from about $1700 to $3000 plus the per unit PCB assembly charge...which is based upon volume.  Some places even charge a hefty (i.e. $1000) recurring fee + PCB assembly fee for subsequent assembly runs.  For low volume assembly, like my current one-off project where to have 16 PCBs (top/Bottom SMT + 20 TH connectors) the assembly cost here in Alberta ranges from $4000 to $5000 (CAD ... USD would be slightly more).  The other issue is time to get the assembly done... most take 4+ weeks which is also an issue...  My thought is that an in-house PnP would be used for prototyping and small production runs only and we would then use ECMs for formal production (i.e. larger volumes).  The other option is to use Asian assembly houses, but then there could be a greater risk of quality issues, etc... not to mention the effort, paper, and transport logistics of exporting/importing assembly kits and final assemblies.... which is a lot of work to do for 10 to 15 PCBs and so the in-house PnP does look attractive.  For my immediate project I will be using a ECM in Eastern Canada that specializes in low volume assembly and their rate is far more reasonable than our local ECMs (1/2 the price).

Like I said I am exploring options to see what makes the most sense (or cent$ :) )

Cheers,

Sam
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sam512bb on December 19, 2012, 05:55:36 pm
[quote author="kineteka"]We are seriously considering importing these and reselling them.

How many of you guys would be interested?

-Mike[/quote]

Good day Mike,

I cannot commit, as I am still exploring my options.  Further because my needs would be for prototyping or low volume assembly, visioning would be a strong consideration (i.e. for BGA).

If I do decide on this device I will certainly let you know.  Although it may just be easier for us to order directly, as we import overseas goods periodically and so are familiar with the logistics.

Cheers,

Sam
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on December 19, 2012, 06:35:52 pm
[quote author="sam512bb"] For example ECM NRE costs vary from about $1700 to $3000 plus the per unit PCB assembly charge...which is based upon volume. Some places even charge a hefty (i.e. $1000) recurring fee + PCB assembly fee[/quote]
Wow, I'd be looking into doing small runs in house as well...that's considerably more NRE than I'm use to dealing with.

[quote author="sam512bb"] My thought is that an in-house PnP would be used for prototyping and small production runs only and we would then use ECMs for formal production (i.e. larger volumes).[/quote]
There's always this (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/2012/12/03/diy-manual-pick-n-place-machine/) :) Really though, it seems like for one-off's assisted manual placement is a pretty good alternative when you take into account setup time for an automated machine.  When you start talking about doing 16 boards at a clip, your techs might start getting a little upset though.  Manncor has a commercialized version of the manual PnP (http://https://www.manncorp.com/pick-and-place-bench-top/smt-place-2000/?auto=done)(there are a few out there), but at > $4k it's a pretty hard sell.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on December 19, 2012, 06:53:29 pm
[quote author="kineteka"]How many of you guys would be interested?
-Mike[/quote]

In this case, I'm just here for the conversation, Mike.  Professionally I use ECM's and none of my DIY stuff is in any appreciable quantity.

[quote author="Royce"]Looking at the photograph, however, I see steppers and belts and other relatively mundane equipment. Every hobby PnP I have ever seen appeared to be constructed similarly but was far, far slower than this device. What's the secret sauce to such speed?[/quote]
Steppers with single turn fine pitch leadscrews are slow (just like matseng noted, these are usually used on DIY CNC's).  Nema17 steppers directly driving a light load via a belt drive are an entirely different animal (for speed) - they can be quite fast.  What you don't get with this arragement is torque or a lot of accuracy (you're at the mercy of the stepper/driver micro-stepping accuracy, sometimes not so good).  Since there's no vision on this machine, the resolution of the steppers is probably a non-issue anyway (a 1.25mm pulley stepper being driven with 1/8th steps gives a theoretical resolution of under 1 um).

Speed and high accuracy is where ballscrews and servo's come into play.  The ballscrews don't have nearly as much friction as the ACME thread and the servo's can provide the necessary torque at high speed.  The fact that they're performing gear reduction increases the accuracy without the speed penalty (the penalty is your wallet instead!) - ballscrews are also made to much tighter tolerances, so positioning with them is more consistent.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Royce on December 19, 2012, 08:15:52 pm
Quote
Steppers with single turn fine pitch leadscrews are slow (just like matseng noted, these are usually used on DIY CNC's). Nema17 steppers directly driving a light load via a belt drive are an entirely different animal (for speed) - they can be quite fast. What you don't get with this arragement is torque or a lot of accuracy (you're at the mercy of the stepper/driver micro-stepping accuracy, sometimes not so good). Since there's no vision on this machine, the resolution of the steppers is probably a non-issue anyway (a 1.25mm pulley stepper being driven with 1/8th steps gives a theoretical resolution of under 1 um).

Speed and high accuracy is where ballscrews and servo's come into play. The ballscrews don't have nearly as much friction as the ACME thread and the servo's can provide the necessary torque at high speed. The fact that they're performing gear reduction increases the accuracy without the speed penalty (the penalty is your wallet instead!) - ballscrews are also made to much tighter tolerances, so positioning with them is more consistent.

Thanks for the explanation. I guess I'm just surprised that as much hobbyist experience as there is with steppers and belts in arenas like 3D printing that there isn't a hobby effort closer to this.

That said, are we sure there is no vision of any sort on this device? I watched the demonstration videos again and noticed that one of the videos towards the bottom, where it works on a panellized PCB, there are clearly two LEDs shining down from the head and the head seems to pause on occasion.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sam512bb on December 19, 2012, 08:59:55 pm
[quote author="bearmos"]
Wow, I'd be looking into doing small runs in house as well...that's considerably more NRE than I'm use to dealing with.

There's always this (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/2012/12/03/diy-manual-pick-n-place-machine/) :) Really though, it seems like for one-off's assisted manual placement is a pretty good alternative when you take into account setup time for an automated machine.  When you start talking about doing 16 boards at a clip, your techs might start getting a little upset though.  Manncor has a commercialized version of the manual PnP (http://https://www.manncorp.com/pick-and-place-bench-top/smt-place-2000/?auto=done)(there are a few out there), but at > $4k it's a pretty hard sell.[/quote]

Good day Bearmos,

Just out of curiosity, what ECM NRE charges are you familiar with and also what part of the World are you located?

Indeed, I saw the DIY manual PnP and I may build one up to try...  Certainly the price is right :)  The commercial manual PnP would not be an option given their price point...

Cheers,

Sam
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: CheBuzz on December 21, 2012, 06:25:53 pm
What's the difference between the OP's post and this one for $1200?

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=19757088609 (http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=19757088609)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: matseng on December 21, 2012, 06:37:07 pm
Both are the same machine - TM220A.  My guess is that you link has it's price (8000 Yuan) wrong since the other sellers are charge 22800 for it.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sam512bb on December 27, 2012, 06:27:45 pm
Good day All,

It looks like someone took the initiative and is selling the TM220A on Ebay... for $5000 USD!  That is a hefty mark up...  The Ebay item is 150970514362.  The ad does show some better pics and it looks like the machine has two placement heads which could explain the fast placement rate... whether it truly can do 7000 cph is another question.  Secondly, it does not like the device uses any type of visioning system and so this would certainly limit the device's capability.  That being said I think there is a market for a device like this, but not in this price point in my opinion. 

Here are the specs from the Ebay ad:
Version    TM220A
Applicable PCB    20mm*20mm~220mm*200mm
XY axis moving range    305×350mm
Z axis moving range    15mm
Placement head quantity    2
Mounting capability    7000 components per hour
Mounting accuracy    ±0.025mm
Applicable Components    0402-5050,SOP, QFN, IC
Components supply configuration    Tape reel, bulk package (IC)
Tape width    8mm, 12mm, 16mm
Feeders    16
External Dimension    L 830mm×W 455mm×H 285mm
Vacuum pump    -92KPA (Mute type pump)
Vacuum pump quantity    2 (included)
Power supply    220V, 50Hz (convertible to 110V)
Average working power    100W
Weight    45KG  (without packing: 25KG)
Packing size    0.32m³


Cheers,

Sam
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ammsolutions on January 03, 2013, 09:04:31 am
I just returned from Shenzhen in Southern China where I bought one of these. Appart from the lack of English on the menu (and no multi language support), the machine is well worth the $$ I compared to many machines around the world and this is by far the best value for money. We got it into production with about a days programming and testing and it's faultless. I am considering buying another to sit along side as the only real limitation is the reel capacity. I need more 12mm feeds.
Instructions are in Chinese and no softcopy has been made available to me which is a pitty as I could have translated it.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: matseng on January 03, 2013, 09:14:46 am
Oh, that's not bad at all - being in production almost instantaneous.  What parts are you using it for?

Can you upload some closeup pics of the feeder mechanisms?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sjaak on January 03, 2013, 10:06:38 am
I was just looking at the vids on the taobaopage, but it looks impressive and fast. A bit out of reach for a hobbiest but nice for a startup.

By looking at is it hard to align the pcb into the machine or are there some pegs to align them more easy? Do you need to calibrate the machine with every board or is there a trick for this?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: xinort on January 04, 2013, 12:12:02 am
I've been talking with the company that makes this and they'd indicated that the menus are available in English. The menus on the videos seem to indicate this as well(there is a language setting). One thing that is holding me up from purchasing is that there is no manual in English. I'm usually pretty good at figuring things out but this seems like a big gamble.

ammsolutions did you manually program or did you use the Protel/Altium tool? What is the procedure for programming? Also can it use trays? I see there is not a tube feeder option but it would be nice if there was a method to use loose components.

They also have the TM240A model which has more feeders and a bigger working area and is about $1300 more.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on January 09, 2013, 11:42:34 am
@ammsolutions if you are still around, were did you get it? I'll be back in shenzhen soon and would be interested in seeing it or meeting a dealer.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sam512bb on January 10, 2013, 09:05:56 pm
Good day All,

Just a follow up to reflect what we decided to do for a PnP machine...  Looking at this one and few other similarly priced machines, I decided to break the bank and go with an older commercial PnP machine (about $10K).  The issue I had with the smaller and less expensive units are their lack of adequate feeders and support for BGAs, etc.  Also, some like the Madell unit look somewhat "flimsy" and for almost $8K.  Adding feeders, etc and the cost was quickly approaching $10K... and I could not find any online reviews of this unit... too many unknowns for me given the $$$ involved.  The $3600 unit looked solid and the videos certainly show it works quite well.  However, the PCB mounting and registration system did not inspire confidence with me... and I really cannot see how it can handle BGAs given that I do not see a vision system or laser registration.  Lastly, there is the issue of support... both technical as well as spares.  Using a known commerical system provides a lot of resources if needed.  That is not to say that this $3600 unit is bad or poor value, but is just a little to risky for me as well as lacks the features that I require.

... well... back to the poor house...

Cheers,

Sam
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on January 11, 2013, 07:54:53 am
That commercial PnP machine did you end up getting?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sam512bb on January 11, 2013, 06:39:41 pm
[quote author="ian"]That commercial PnP machine did you end up getting?[/quote]

Good day Ian,

I am just finalizing the deal now, but it is a Juki 575.  There are a variety of units available on the market, but the balance for me was cost, size (because of transport logistics), power needs (single phase as opposed to three phase), feeder package (which is important, as feeders can add up pretty quickly), etc.  The Juki's are highly regarded, straight forward to program, spares/replacement parts can be easily found, etc.  Although the 575 is a "smaller" unit it is by no means a light weight... it weights 450kg and 973mm x 843mmx 1680mm in size... Smaller meaning that it's placement rate and total installed feeder quantity is smaller compared to the higher end placement machines.  For me that is fine, as I am only looking to use the machine for prototyping and low production needs and will still be using a ECM for medium to high volume requirements.  About the price... I believe I am paying a fair price for the unit given all of the accessories, free training by the owner, and for a relatively lightly used unit from the original owner.  Can better bargains be found?  Sure, but then there is increased risk ... to me anyway.  Transport is also a consideration, as the unit needs to be properly packaged (crated, etc) and co-ordinated with the (International) transport carrier.  Not a big issue, but certainly extra effort and attention is needed.

Personally I do think there is a market for a new machine catered to people/companies like myself. I do think that this market is currently in its infancy and so that is the reason that there are few (new) devices available and so the current prices are reflective of this.  Secondly, it is a niche market, as a PnP would not be used or needed by the general populous... and so again pricing will be higher because of the lack of economies of scale. 

In regards to this $3600 PnP, or the ones from Madell, etc... Perhaps I would of purchased one had I been able to see, touch, and experiment with the unit.  Sadly, one does not know the strengths or weakness of a product until one has some real hands on time with it.  In my case there is just none available anywhere close to me and so far virtually 0 feedback I could find on the Madell units and only a few comments on the $3600 PnP... and even these comments are only from first usage/impressions... what will they be in 6 months or even 1 year from now? $3600 or $7500 (Madell) + shipping is fair amount of $$$ to spend based upon a product's "spec".  Like I said before I am not trying to dissuade anyone from these units, but my previous comments are things that entered into my decision.

Anyway, If all goes well I should have the machine by months end or so and if there is interest by others in this thread I can post my experiences.

Cheers,

Sam
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on January 11, 2013, 06:58:25 pm
I haven't hunted around too much, but $10k for a lightly used single owner Juki 575 with feeders sounds phenomenal.  I think this choice is a really good fit for your situation.

Thanks for sharing!  btw, how did you come across the unit?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sam512bb on January 11, 2013, 08:26:08 pm
[quote author="bearmos"]I haven't hunted around too much, but $10k for a lightly used single owner Juki 575 with feeders sounds phenomenal.  I think this choice is a really good fit for your situation.

Thanks for sharing!  btw, how did you come across the unit?[/quote]

Good day Bearmos,

Indeed, I think the price is excellent all things considered.  The owner is fantastic to deal with and more importantly he will demonstrate and train me on the unit.  Like I said, can better deals be found?  Possibly, but in this case I am getting info and training right from the owner, as opposed to 2nd or 3rd hand knowledge and this is worth a lot to me.

As for my search... I have been scouring Ebay, the web, a few SMT forums, and e-mailed a few brokers in the last 7 weeks or so.  There is a ton (no pun intended) of equipment out there with a range of capability, prices, and condition.  The trick is to narrow your search based upon your placement needs, cost, size, and infrastructure needs (single phase/ Three phase, etc)... Cost is a big one and should include additional feeders, transport, and future serviceability.  As for links I used the following:
 
 http://www.used-line.com (http://www.used-line.com)
 http://www.hi-techsources.com/ (http://www.hi-techsources.com/)
 http://www.caeonline.com (http://www.caeonline.com)
 http://www.smtnet.com (http://www.smtnet.com)

Cheers,

Sam
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on January 11, 2013, 08:41:37 pm
Thanks a lot for the links Sam!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on January 14, 2013, 09:50:33 am
Thanks for the extra info! Good luck with your machine.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: xinort on January 14, 2013, 08:40:53 pm
I went ahead and bought the TM-220A for $3650 plus $307 for shipping via FedEx. It's a ton of cash for my micro business. I have conversed with them quite a bit. They were able to send me the training videos and while in Chinese the videos along with the English screenshots I was able to make sense of it all. Now they are helping me (and me helping them I suppose) to get the centroid data out of Eagle. I just need to format the data properly(comma delimited, x,y,indicator,package and rotation) and they have a tool that does much of the programming from there. I just need to map the feeders to the parts. I don't use BGA currently mostly SOIC some sop and 0805 although I think I'm going to go down to 0603 with future designs. I must say it's a gamble and I'm definitely nervous that I've made a bad decision but I'm comfortable with the purchase. I've been paying people ~$10/hr to hand place parts for many many years. The pnp has always been out of my reach financially. I'll post here and let everyone know how it goes. Hoping for it to arrive by the end of the week.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on January 15, 2013, 03:23:04 am
good luck xinort.  we'd all love to hear how it goes.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on January 15, 2013, 11:14:50 am
Quote
good luck xinort. we'd all love to hear how it goes.

Ditto, if you're happy I'll buy one right away :)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: oakkar7 on January 21, 2013, 02:46:20 pm
Today, I saw via adafruit. This machine in action. Nice to see :)

http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2013/01/21 ... rbusiness/ (http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2013/01/21/meet-a-shenzhen-maker-mr-chen-makerbusinessmonday-makerbusiness/)


and some videos in hackedgadgets also.

http://hackedgadgets.com/2012/12/24/269 ... e-machine/ (http://hackedgadgets.com/2012/12/24/269-high-speed-automatic-pick-and-place-machine/)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sam512bb on January 22, 2013, 09:47:20 pm
Good day All,
I just returned from inspecting and training on the used Juki PnP that I will buying and mentioned in my earlier post.  I am totally amazed and bewildered at all of the intricacies involved with how PnP is done, used, and what parameters need to be inputted.  After training and seeing all of the details needed for PnP'ing I can now see the issues facing the smaller and less commercial devices available.  That is not to say that the smaller devices should not be considered, but one should really know and understand their limitations.  In my case after looking, analyzing, and now being somewhat trained on a commercial unit I am even more convinced that the unit I am going with is my best direction.  My advice to other considering a PnP... ensure you understand the costs, benefits, and limitations of the machine you are considering.
Cheers,
Sam
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on January 23, 2013, 10:09:05 am
I just posted up a picture of a $5000 PNP I got to see yesterday. Quite nice.

http://dangerousprototypes.com/2013/01/ ... and-place/ (http://dangerousprototypes.com/2013/01/23/5000-pick-and-place/)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tayken on January 23, 2013, 10:32:47 am
[quote author="ian"]I just posted up a picture of a $5000 PNP I got to see yesterday. Quite nice.

http://dangerousprototypes.com/2013/01/ ... and-place/ (http://dangerousprototypes.com/2013/01/23/5000-pick-and-place/)[/quote]
That looks a lot like the $3600 one.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sjaak on January 23, 2013, 11:22:46 am
[quote author="ian"]I just posted up a picture of a $5000 PNP I got to see yesterday. Quite nice.

http://dangerousprototypes.com/2013/01/ ... and-place/ (http://dangerousprototypes.com/2013/01/23/5000-pick-and-place/)[/quote]

Have you tried bargaining it? :D
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on January 23, 2013, 11:28:50 am
not yet :)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: jelmer on January 23, 2013, 11:34:16 am
[quote author="xinort"]I went ahead and bought the TM-220A for $3650 plus $307 for shipping via FedEx. It's a ton of cash for my micro business. I have conversed with them quite a bit. They were able to send me the training videos and while in Chinese the videos along with the English screenshots I was able to make sense of it all. Now they are helping me (and me helping them I suppose) to get the centroid data out of Eagle. I just need to format the data properly(comma delimited, x,y,indicator,package and rotation) and they have a tool that does much of the programming from there. I just need to map the feeders to the parts. I don't use BGA currently mostly SOIC some sop and 0805 although I think I'm going to go down to 0603 with future designs. I must say it's a gamble and I'm definitely nervous that I've made a bad decision but I'm comfortable with the purchase. I've been paying people ~$10/hr to hand place parts for many many years. The pnp has always been out of my reach financially. I'll post here and let everyone know how it goes. Hoping for it to arrive by the end of the week.[/quote]

Hey Xinort, does that mean there is a way to set the interface of the machine in English? Or is it the accompanying software for pc that's in English?
Any chance on sharing those training video's? The more people that know how to work with the machine, the more units they'll sell, so I can't see why they would mind ;)

Good luck and keep us updated on the new buy!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on January 23, 2013, 01:40:46 pm
Liao said he'd bargin for me and thinks we can get the price way down. Yoshi in Tokyo  is interested and is checking it out too.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on January 23, 2013, 01:44:00 pm
[quote author="ian"]I just posted up a picture of a $5000 PNP I got to see yesterday. Quite nice.

http://dangerousprototypes.com/2013/01/ ... and-place/ (http://dangerousprototypes.com/2013/01/23/5000-pick-and-place/)[/quote]

Cool, care to share your plans for it?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sam512bb on January 23, 2013, 03:45:25 pm
[quote author="ian"]I just posted up a picture of a $5000 PNP I got to see yesterday. Quite nice.

http://dangerousprototypes.com/2013/01/ ... and-place/ (http://dangerousprototypes.com/2013/01/23/5000-pick-and-place/)[/quote]

Good day Ian and others that have seen and/or used this machine,

Does anyone know how the feeders advance?  The commercial units use compressed air, but others I imagine may use a solenoid, etc.  Also, how does the machine handle board registration (board edge, fixture hole, fiducial recognition, etc) as well as component picked misalignment (i.e. the machine picked up a part that was crooked in the feeder pocket)?  Lastly, are the pickup nozzles changeable?  I ask, as different nozzles are needed for different parts. 

Cheers,

Sam
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on January 24, 2013, 03:55:13 am
@sam
I think if you go back in this thread there us a description of the workings.

@bearmos no plans but after hearing the review if this one posted on the blog, I think I will buy the 3600 one. The.comoany is supporying it wrll and as it is readily available it is more likley to have a community to support it too.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: xinort on January 24, 2013, 09:48:56 pm
@Sam
The head unit has a pin that is controlled and grabs the tape and the head moves it the distance set in the config file. There is also a tape take up reel that pulls the tape and reels it up.

The nozzles are interchangeable and the machine comes with several. Here is what they gave me :
XS:0402,0603,0805,SOT-23,Glass diode
S:0805,1206,1812,2010,2512,LED(3528,5050), SOT-23,SOT89
M:LED(5050),SOP-8,SOP-14,SOP-16,SOT-223,SOT-252 (size less than: 10*10mm)
L: IC size more than 10*10mm, need to setup the height of component

Attention: IC size under 16*16mm, PIN foot less than 100, fine-pitch above 0.5mm, the height of component less than 3mm.

@Jelmer
Yes, it came with English menus (albeit with a couple spelling mistakes) and a 110v power supply. Nothing else is in English, manuals, training videos all are in Chinese. But it's all pretty intuitive. The SD card comes with a bunch of stuff on it including a copy of (I believe Chinese) Altium which was surprising. There is a tool for converting the output from protel/altium to the format used by the pnp. I haven't tried using it yet. For me I just output the placement, rotation etc. data from Eagle using a ulp script and then modify it to include the other data that the pnp needs (height of the component, what stack(feeder) the part is at and what head to use. It's all pretty intuitive and hasn't been that hard to figure out even without a manual.

Here is the configuration file. Hopefully this outputs properly.
%   Origin Offset   X   Y                  
65535   0   0   0                  
                           
%   Stack Offset   Stack   X   Y               
65535   1   0   0   0               
65535   1   1   0   0               
65535   1   2   0   0               
65535   1   3   0   0               
65535   1   4   0   0               
65535   1   5   0   0               
65535   1   6   0   0               
65535   1   7   0   0               
65535   1   8   0   0               
65535   1   9   0   0               
65535   1   10   0   0               
65535   1   11   0   0               
65535   1   12   0   0               
65535   1   13   0   0               
65535   1   14   0   0               
65535   1   15   0   0               
                           
%   Feeding Set   Stack   Feed   Rate               
65535   2   0   18                  
65535   2   1   4                  
65535   2   2   4                  
65535   2   3   4                  
65535   2   4   4                  
65535   2   5   4                  
65535   2   6   4                  
65535   2   7   4                  
65535   2   8   4                  
65535   2   9   4                  
65535   2   10   4                  
65535   2   11   4                  
65535   2   12   4                  
65535   2   13   8                  
65535   2   14   8                  
65535   2   15   8                  
                           
%   Jointed Board   X   Y                  
%/65535   3   0   0                  
                           
%   Head   Stack   X   Y   R   H   skip   Ref   Comment
1   1   0   5.01   29.87   0   0   1   C0   22uf PANASONIC_D
2   1   0   45.75   12.02   180   2.95   0   H1   HIH-5030
3   1   1   39.65   24.17   270   0.9   0   C1   .01uf C0805K
4   1   2   27.25   25.41   90   0.9   0   C3   .1uf  C0805K
5   2   13   12.52   27.11   180   2.8   0   C4   10uf C/6032-28R
6   2   13   11.34   34.97   90   2.8   0   C5   10uf C/6032-28R
7   1   1   27.06   31.61   0   0.9   0   C6   .01uf C0805K
8   1   2   42.13   9.78   270   0.9   0   C7   .1uf  C0805K
9   1   2   15.2   36.86   270   0.9   0   C8   .1uf  C0805K
10   1   2   27.04   29.06   0   0.9   0   C9   .1uf  C0805K
11   1   8   7.48   20.31   270   1.25   0   D1   SOD-123
12   1   3   31.13   20.12   270   1.15   0   D4   BAS54 SOT23-EBC
13   1   5   24.75   25.49   270   0.9   0   L1   C0805K
14   1   6   41.8   24.15   90   0.6   0   R2   100k C0805K
15   1   7   25.76   21.27   0   0.6   0   R3   10ohm C0805K
16   2   14   4.78   38.05   0   1.8   0   U1   5v Reg SOT223
17   2   0   33.27   24.76   90   1.75   0   U2   SO08

% is a comment
65535 means that its a config command
Command 0 sets the orgin offset so if the corner of the board is not at 0,0 you can set that here
Command 1 offsets the pick up point at the feeders. Stack 0 is the 10 trays at the front of the machine. Stacks 1-15 are labeled on the machine and hold the reels.
Command 2 sets how far the tape is advanced for each part (from the datasheet)
Command 3 allows you to set the location of multiple boards for a panel etc.

Hope this helps someone!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sam512bb on January 25, 2013, 01:40:23 am
Good Day xinort,
Excellent, thanks for the info and feedback!  The machine looks very nice and obviously the manufacturer really thought it through.
Cheers,
Sam
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on January 25, 2013, 12:36:25 pm
Seeed is going to the factory on Monday and I have committed to buy one. Yoshi and Hus friends are getting 3 and Seeed is buying one or maybe 5 :) we hope for a 5 or 10 pack discount, esoecially after some expert bargaining by seeed. wouldn't be surprised if this is at Seeed soon.

I sent them your comment about the extra parts and will order them too. Thanks for trialling this for all if us :) would not be perusing it without that.

My hope is if we all have them maybe the hacker space in Shenzhen or elsewhere will write an open firmware for thenstm32 :) better to build a community around one model and all that.

Our goal is to get them at 3000 flat.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on January 25, 2013, 01:30:55 pm
[quote author="ian"]Seeed is going to the factory on Monday and I have committed to buy one. Yoshi and Hus friends are getting 3 and Seeed is buying one or maybe 5 :) we hope for a 5 or 10 pack discount, esoecially after some expert bargaining by seeed. wouldn't be surprised if this is at Seeed soon.

I sent them your comment about the extra parts and will order them too. Thanks for trialling this for all if us :) would not be perusing it without that.

My hope is if we all have them maybe the hacker space in Shenzhen or elsewhere will write an open firmware for thenstm32 :) better to build a community around one model and all that.

Our goal is to get them at 3000 flat.[/quote]

nice!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sjaak on January 26, 2013, 11:26:20 am
just watched the videos again. Quite impressive.

How to align the pcb to (0,0) ? since it is a pnp without camera this is very important
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on January 26, 2013, 11:50:41 am
I have a feeling I will need ton start adding furidical cap placements on the four corners of boards so we can calibrate before placing all the parts. The cheap proto PCBs have huge variation in edge cuts.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sjaak on January 26, 2013, 12:49:33 pm
open source (0,0) finder? :D

Some cheap camera should do the trick for big components I guess. On sparkfun there was a camera that could find boxes. http://cmucam.org/projects/cmucam4/wiki/SparkFun_Camera (http://cmucam.org/projects/cmucam4/wiki/SparkFun_Camera)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on January 26, 2013, 02:49:02 pm
[quote author="ian"]I have a feeling I will need ton start adding furidical cap placements on the four corners of boards so we can calibrate before placing all the parts. The cheap proto PCBs have huge variation in edge cuts.[/quote]
The easiest thing to do would be to add some holes to the PCB's and bed of the PnP and use some alignment pins.  The holes on the bed of the PnP should be known to be an absolute position (I'm assuming it has reliable home switches), so then you'll always know where the PCB is, no closed loop alignments necessary.

That being said, if you do decide on doing a OSH automated fiducial recognition system - that would be cool too ;-)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: dolabra on January 26, 2013, 02:56:06 pm
With standard SOB PCBs the pins solution should be a very good solution,
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on January 27, 2013, 04:50:31 am
[quote author="ian"]Seeed is going to the factory on Monday and I have committed to buy one.  Our goal is to get them at 3000 flat.[/quote]

Is there any chance that I can hop in with this purchase?  I'd need to be able to arrange shipping to Edmonton, Canada.

I can do payment via PayPal or bank wire transfer - whichever is easiest.  Bank wire is probably the least expensive, though.  I think that our office manager says that it costs us something like US $20 to send a wire transfer in US Dollars.  Oddly enough, it costs significantly more to send a wire transfer in Canadian dollars, even though its the same banking institution.

Anyway, please let me know.  I'm also game for whatever accessories that others deem necessary.

Many thanks!

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on January 27, 2013, 04:53:29 am
[quote author="CheBuzz"]What's the difference between the OP's post and this one for $1200?

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=19757088609 (http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=19757088609)[/quote]

If you read carefully, this is a deposit only.  In other words, you still have to pay the balance before you get the machine.

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: digistump on January 27, 2013, 06:29:48 am
[quote author="ian"]Seeed is going to the factory on Monday and I have committed to buy one. [/quote]

As DwayneR said - is there any chance you'll let others jump in on the group buy? I sent a message via the contact form too - long time reader, never have spare time to be a poster, but trying to do that more too. I run digistump (website at that address plus the usual ending) - makers of the attiny85 development board the Digispark - I've been through evaluating every type of pick and place, new, used, american, chinese, large, small, etc - almost bought a Quad 4C (which the guys at solarbotics just bought) but decided to delay it due to time/space/power constraints. These seem perfect! and by that I mean perfectly hackable! It would be awesome to create a community around them!

Let me know if you'll let people join in, since I'm new here I'd be happy pay up front or something like that. I'm in Washougal, WA (Portland, OR area) and would need it shipped here, but any shipping arrangement would work for me (ie. shipped to the states then to me, or shipped right to me - I'm good at being patient). I would want one machine and I could also provide payment in any form and would want whatever spares/accessories others deemed necessary.

Regardless thanks for all the great investigation of these - thanks to xinort too of course for all the first hand info!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: royco on January 27, 2013, 07:48:22 am
Thanks for all the info. I want in too. Like Digistump mentioned. Ok to ship to a US location then to me or to me directly.

Spending too much time hand placing small run prototypes.

To make this sweeter, can somebody find a desktop sized wave solder machine or better yet a selective wave solder on the cheap for the through hole parts.

Here's its bigger brother the TM240A being used and described by a certain Mr. Chen as interviewed by Zack Hoeken in China.

From Zack's blog. http://http://www.hoektronics.com/2013/01/05/meet-a-shenzhen-maker-mr-chen/
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: digistump on January 27, 2013, 09:50:01 am
Zack's blog is also where I first became aware of these machines - then I looked at them on taobao and they've never left my mind since. More than anything I like that they look like something I could A) Hack and B) Fix
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on January 27, 2013, 11:06:43 am
Seeed is sending someone to check it out tomorrow. I heard from both Eric and Liao today about it. Also sent the list of accessories mentioned. I will certainly tell them we might be able to do a bunch more. I'm sure wire to Seeed HSBC account is fine. If Seeed can't ship, I have an air freighter contact who got a ton of business from and through me this week (susi shipper) and they are really cheap. 24 rmb per kilo for FedEx. BTW susi shipper is happy to receive taobao and remailed it, and I left plently of money in my bank of.China account yesterday.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sam512bb on January 27, 2013, 05:52:05 pm
[quote author="DwayneR"][quote author="ian"]Seeed is going to the factory on Monday and I have committed to buy one.  Our goal is to get them at 3000 flat.[/quote]

Is there any chance that I can hop in with this purchase?  I'd need to be able to arrange shipping to Edmonton, Canada.

I can do payment via PayPal or bank wire transfer - whichever is easiest.  Bank wire is probably the least expensive, though.  I think that our office manager says that it costs us something like US $20 to send a wire transfer in US Dollars.  Oddly enough, it costs significantly more to send a wire transfer in Canadian dollars, even though its the same banking institution.

Anyway, please let me know.  I'm also game for whatever accessories that others deem necessary.

Many thanks!

dwayne[/quote]

Good day Dwayne,

Small World...  I do not know if you recall, but we met a number of times when I used to work at the AMC long ago...

Anyway, wire transfers from Canada to Asia usually run about $45 and take anywhere from 15 to 30 minutes to process at the bank.  Why so long?  The Canadian banking wire transfer fields do not match to those in Asia and so it is a bit of a process.  The $20 to $25 transfers mentioned by your manager is probably the cost for transfers to US destinations.

As for the PnP, if you want to save some $$$ you will be welcome to use mine (Juki) once it arrives and I have it set up.

Cheers,

Sam
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sam512bb on January 27, 2013, 05:57:29 pm
[quote author="royco"]<snip>
To make this sweeter, can somebody find a desktop sized wave solder machine or better yet a selective wave solder on the cheap for the through hole parts.
<snip>
[/quote]

Good day Royco,

Check Ebay often.  I saw a desktop used wave soldering machine near the end of December and I think the bid price was about $1200 or so.  Solder fountains appear less common, although Ebay had one for around $3600 or so.

Cheers,

Sam
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on January 27, 2013, 09:48:08 pm
Quote
Good day Dwayne,

Anyway, wire transfers from Canada to Asia usually run about $45 and take anywhere from 15 to 30 minutes to process at the bank.  Why so long?  The Canadian banking wire transfer fields do not match to those in Asia and so it is a bit of a process.  The $20 to $25 transfers mentioned by your manager is probably the cost for transfers to US destinations.

Sam

The bank wire transfers that I've been making are to Chinese PCB suppliers.  I was pleasantly surprised at the cost - I had fully expected it to be in the $45 - $50 region based on past experience. 

These wire transfers are being made from our US Dollar account.  Like I mentioned earlier, wire transfers made from our Canadian Dollar account cost significantly more.  I really have no idea why there is a difference.  FWIW - we bank with Alberta Treasury Branch (ATB).

Something that that really frosts me is that I used to purchase PCBs made by a Chinese manufacturer but handled through a Canadian broker.  The broker used to charge us for THEIR wire transfer fees to the manufacturer, which means that we paid wire transfer fees twice: to the broker as well as the broker's fee to the manufacturer.  That only happened a couple of times before I found out about it - and it doesn't happen any more.  I don't often get mad but that made me furious and I let everyone involved know exactly how I felt about it - including the PCB manufacturer.  That policy changed soon after <grin>.

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sam512bb on January 29, 2013, 03:17:19 am
[quote author="DwayneR"]
Quote
Good day Dwayne,

Anyway, wire transfers from Canada to Asia usually run about $45 and take anywhere from 15 to 30 minutes to process at the bank.  Why so long?  The Canadian banking wire transfer fields do not match to those in Asia and so it is a bit of a process.  The $20 to $25 transfers mentioned by your manager is probably the cost for transfers to US destinations.

Sam

The bank wire transfers that I've been making are to Chinese PCB suppliers.  I was pleasantly surprised at the cost - I had fully expected it to be in the $45 - $50 region based on past experience. 

These wire transfers are being made from our US Dollar account.  Like I mentioned earlier, wire transfers made from our Canadian Dollar account cost significantly more.  I really have no idea why there is a difference.  FWIW - we bank with Alberta Treasury Branch (ATB).

Something that that really frosts me is that I used to purchase PCBs made by a Chinese manufacturer but handled through a Canadian broker.  The broker used to charge us for THEIR wire transfer fees to the manufacturer, which means that we paid wire transfer fees twice: to the broker as well as the broker's fee to the manufacturer.  That only happened a couple of times before I found out about it - and it doesn't happen any more.  I don't often get mad but that made me furious and I let everyone involved know exactly how I felt about it - including the PCB manufacturer.  That policy changed soon after <grin>.

dwayne[/quote]

Good day Dwayne,

Good to know.  Indeed, "our" Canadian banks like to sock it to us anyway they can...  Thanks for the e-mail and I sent you one back.

Cheers,

Sam
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: royco on January 30, 2013, 01:43:07 am
Any news?  Take our money already, please.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on January 30, 2013, 05:02:32 am
I'm there with you and will ask for an update today.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on January 30, 2013, 05:50:52 am
I started a wiki to consolidate info, links, and committed buyers.

http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/TM2 ... _resources (http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/TM220A_Pick_and_Place_resources)

I have not seen the training videos, but if anyone has a link please add it or let me know and I will add it.

If you are 100% committed, money in hand and know how to wire it today, please add your handle to the buyers list. I really hope to have this wrapped up before the new year starts and everything shuts down.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: csshih on January 30, 2013, 08:41:59 pm
I've been following this thread since it popped up.
one day I hope we can have the whole suite of tools being available at a relatively low cost the the general consumer - stencil cutter/printer, p&p machine and *decent* reflow ovens.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on January 31, 2013, 12:07:46 pm
Things fell together all of a sudden. I have no idea if we can get a discount, but if you are cash-in-hand, and can make a paypal or wire transfer in the next 18 hours, please contact me immediately at ian @ this site to be included in the buy.

One thing that is not yet clear is if the power can be modded 110 for US and JP people.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on January 31, 2013, 03:26:46 pm
Moved to new tools forum :)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: jelmer on February 01, 2013, 02:25:33 pm
[quote author="xinort"]
--snip
@Jelmer
Yes, it came with English menus (albeit with a couple spelling mistakes) and a 110v power supply. Nothing else is in English, manuals, training videos all are in Chinese. But it's all pretty intuitive. The SD card comes with a bunch of stuff on it including a copy of (I believe Chinese) Altium which was surprising. There is a tool for converting the output from protel/altium to the format used by the pnp. I haven't tried using it yet. For me I just output the placement, rotation etc. data from Eagle using a ulp script and then modify it to include the other data that the pnp needs (height of the component, what stack(feeder) the part is at and what head to use. It's all pretty intuitive and hasn't been that hard to figure out even without a manual.
--snip
[/quote]

Thanks for clearing that up xinort!

Also found it on Aliexpress for $5000: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Surface- ... 66304.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Surface-Mount-System-Desktop-Pick-and-Place-Machine-SMT-0402-TM220A/738366304.html)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on February 01, 2013, 04:02:34 pm
I've had a dozen inquiries from this thread, great to see so many people who can contribute to making this machine hacker friendly. I thought I'd post my stock reply here :) This is not going to happen today, but I will try to have the order firmed by next Monday.

Quote
You all contacted me about buying the TM220A pick and place. I assume everyone in the US and Japan will need the 110volt version, which Xinort has already purchased directly from the manufacturer. He has said it is useful but certainly not without quirks that may be fixed by experience. I'm hoping by getting a bunch of us going we can hack it faster and better.

Seeed Studio purchased the TM240A, a bigger version with more reels, after visiting the factory. They purchased one TM220A 220volt version for me that will be delivered Monday.

My suggestion is that we (I) contact the manufacturers directly and try to negotiate a group price on 6 pieces TM220A 110volt version. Liao paid 21500RMB ($3500, $200 USD less than TaoBao) for my TM220A, shipping was $240USD. I would expect a price of 20000RMB ($3225) on an order of 6, but that is just a guess.

Since we are dealing with the manufacturers directly I assume payment will be directly to their account by wire.

Best regards and happy pick and placing,


Quote
The company will ship it direct from (near) Shanghai which is a long ways from Shenzhen, we will not go through my shipper. I think it is $460 or so to USA, not sure of Europe. They will use same FedEX freight that I get in Huaqiangbei I'm pretty sure though.

I wouldn't count on $3000 or less, I got mine at $3400 (aprox) with a $200 discount from Taobao price. My shipping is $240 to, but reshipped by my partner in Shenzhen after picking it up (near) Shanghai China.

If you are firmly committed and able to wire upwards of $4000 at 24 hours notice to the manufacturer in China I can count you in, otherwise it is probably best to wait until Seeed Studio or other western oriented seller has them available for normal purchase. When we move on this it has to be fast, and I can't negotiate a deal without a hard number of units on the table. Sorry about this, is kind of a special situation.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: digistump on February 02, 2013, 01:20:56 am
Any idea what seeed paid for their TM240A?

On TaoBao I'm seeing them as about 7000 yuan more than the 220A with nearly double the reel capacity (27 reels vs 15)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on February 02, 2013, 08:46:48 am
It is $1111 more expensive. I wouldn't do it personally until we all have a chance to look at the smaller one. At $4500 you can (I guess) get a quality used machine with vision, etc. At $7500 I guess you can get a new name brand machine with vision. For me the price escalates too quickly for an unproven low end system.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on February 02, 2013, 11:28:55 pm
Hi there, Ian.

OK - I'll stay with the smaller machine.  Just let me know when and where to send payment.

Many thanks!

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on February 03, 2013, 07:49:15 am
Didn't mean to dissuade you, just my gut feeling. I will ask for the price none the less.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on February 03, 2013, 10:34:52 pm
I'm just thinking of the projects I have coming up.  The little board I want to play with to begin with has 13 different components - most are 0805 and 0603 resistors along with 3 different zener diodes, a small 4-legged bridge rectifier (DF04S, I think) and several mmbt4401 transistors.  Its a simple circuit on a very tiny PCB - I got 200 panels of 6 boards per panel in my last PCB order.  The board manufacturer also supplied a stainless-steel paste stencil for $50, which I thought was a reasonable price for stainless-steel.

The idea behind getting so many panels was specifically for me to be able to play with pick-and-place.  I've got a Shapeoko CNC machine almost ready to go - the machine was actually built a couple of months ago but I'm reworking the Z-axis to use belt drive instead of a screw.  But - I'll happily abandon the project if I can get a semi-pro machine for the cost that this machine is looking to cost.

My next SMD project uses significantly more component types - somewhere in the region of 25 different components.  That said - I'll do what I can to reduce that number, even if I have to combine multiple components to get the correct values. 

All of this is so that I can cost-effectively produce small to medium quantities of SMD boards in-house instead of having to out-source them or build them entirely by hand.  Production quantities will be out-sourced - the big guys can do it much better than I can at lower cost.  But they aren't much interested in less than several hundred to several thousand boards.

Anyway, I'm still VERY interested in purchasing this machine.  The larger one would be nice but its definitely NOT worth an extra grand at this point in time.

Thanks again, Ian.  I know that you didn't ask for all this extra work and you already have your own machine coming in - you don't really have to invest more time to help the rest of us out.  I, for one, *really* appreciate it.

dwayne
Title: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: TomKeddie on February 04, 2013, 08:39:25 pm
You guys should use xtrade.com for transfers.  You register your bank accounts and the transfers look like local debit to your bank.  They make the money on the exchange rate, no fees and the rates aren't that bad.  They are slow though, usually take a week to xfer.  I've been using them between US, Canada and Australia for about 8 years.

Tom

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ObiWan on February 05, 2013, 04:56:22 pm
hi my english is not perfect and i hope you understand me..
i have found the TM220 at your website, and i must say, very nice ;-)
at this time i read a lot und view some videos about this machine
but there are some questions:

- how the machine calibrate a new pcb? about the fiducial?
- how the machine knows about the right middle pick up a TQFP or QFN?
- i read that there are some more information add the machine (manal and video). can i download the information somewhere?

Obi Wan
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: xinort on February 05, 2013, 11:21:26 pm
Hi All,

Just an update. I continue to experience problems with this machine. It has turned into a HUGE headache. When it works it's not bad but it just has so many problems it takes more time fixing the machine every other board then just doing them by hand. By fixing I mean it constantly drops parts, CONSTANTLY gets stuck advancing tape, and placement is not very accurate even with large components. I'm so frustrated right now I have literally screamed out loud. I'm seeking a refund, if I can't get one I'm looking to sell this piece of garbage.

Sooo depressed,
Xinort
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sam512bb on February 06, 2013, 01:30:31 am
[quote author="xinort"]Hi All,

Just an update. I continue to experience problems with this machine. It has turned into a HUGE headache. When it works it's not bad but it just has so many problems it takes more time fixing the machine every other board then just doing them by hand. By fixing I mean it constantly drops parts, CONSTANTLY gets stuck advancing tape, and placement is not very accurate even with large components. I'm so frustrated right now I have literally screamed out loud. I'm seeking a refund, if I can't get one I'm looking to sell this piece of garbage.

Sooo depressed,
Xinort[/quote]

Good day Xinort,

Yikes...Just a few thoughts...  If the unit is dropping parts check to see if you can use a larger nozzle... The bigger the nozzle should allow more "strength" to hold the parts.  As for PCB registration/inaccuracies... Can you somehow slow down the machine?  Perhaps it is missing some of its encoder signals (or whatever it uses for location feedback) and so slowing down the machine may allow some level of positional recovery?  Lastly, I would contact the manufacturer to see if there is a firmware update... you never know, perhaps a firmware update may minimize some of the issues you are seeing.

Cheers,

Sam
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on February 06, 2013, 03:34:12 am
xinort,
as a prefece - i have no direct experience with PnP, but I do have plenty of frustration in the CNC realm.

[quote author="xinort"] it constantly drops parts,[/quote]
- like sam mentioned, changing to a larger nozel should help out - the bigger/heavier the part the bigger the suction cup you should be using.  as a general rule, you should be changing nozels depending on what you're placing.
- check your vac settings to see if you can get more suction, check for leaks, etc.
- if you don't have enough suction, fast rapids while transfering parts around can knock them off - so if you slow it down that could help too - I've seen even the biggest pro PnP slow down for the heavier components.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on February 06, 2013, 03:54:43 am
[quote author="xinort"]CONSTANTLY gets stuck advancing tape[/quote]
what "get's stuck"?  This machine uses a secondary peg on the placement head to pull on the tape, correct?  if you're trying to advance the tape too quickly you might be loosing steps - without having a really detailed decription of what's going on it's kind of hard to help though.

[quote author="xinort"] and placement is not very accurate even with large components[/quote]
- having no vision feedback, placement is inherently inaccurate - the machine relies on how accurate the component is placed in the tape (this is probably pretty obvious - sorry).  so, there's at a minimum the initial component variance. 
- from what i remember seeing it looked to be a belt drive, so it was relying on microstepping of the motors quite a bit (the reliability of microstepping depends a lot on the motor).
- if you're dropping components - they might be wiggling around on the way to their location - getting that fixed might help out a lot.

[quote author="sam512bb"]. Can you somehow slow down the machine? Perhaps it is missing some of its encoder signals (or whatever it uses for location feedback) and so slowing down the machine may allow some level of positional recovery? [/quote]
I think these machines use open loop stepper motors - so no encoder feedback to speak of.  going along this same line of thinking though. . .
- slowing things down can help.  stepper motors loose major torque at higher speeds, so limiting the max speed can help a lot. 
- machines like this that don't/shouldn't have a lot of friction, so they'll generally rely on acceleration to  get the steppers up to max speed (this provides more torque when it's going slow and then as the axis gets up to max speed less torque is required to keep it moving).  If there's an adjustable acceleration you could try lowering that.
- make sure there isn't friction on the axis - things may have shifted a bit in transit to you (if it came assembled), so there might be some misalignments now.  check to see if moving parts can be oiled, etc (careful to check into this though, sometimes oil can to much more harm than good).


honestly, a lot of this sounds like standard pains of bringing up a new machine (comissioning) - the difference when you pay more and have a better machine is that there's generally some support from the manufacturer.  If you look through to one of sam's old posts - he's got the real deal - and there are TONS of adjustments and little gotcha's even for that.  You just need to figure out what your machine's gotcha's are and compenstate for them (or send it back, of course!).

I would expect this is probably par for the course though, until more people get the machines and can share what works, share tips, etc.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on February 06, 2013, 07:17:31 am
An update on my attempt to buy them (still time to get out if Xinort's experience is troubling). I keep missing the company over QQ> I did send a email with all the info, but QQ seems to be the only thing they answer.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: TrevorWhite on February 07, 2013, 03:29:52 pm
What happens if the machine goes faulty or needs a part replacing? Is that the end of its use? Can they be fixed?

The machine looks great.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sam512bb on February 09, 2013, 10:35:15 pm
Good day All,

For those that might be interested, here are some pics of the (older) Commercial Juki/Zevatech that I recently purchased.  It is a sizeable unit and it took two good size crates to transport the machine and the associated accessories to me...  2 crates weighing 1700 lbs total and were roughly 50" square x 5' high... Crating was not cheap and was actually more than the entire transport cost!  I also included a picture of the manuals... about 10 of them ranging from training, parts, user,operating, etc...  Although the original owner trained me on the unit, there is a lot to know and given how many manuals there are... I suspect I will be reading for quite a while...

Cheers,

Sam
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on February 10, 2013, 04:50:00 pm
that's all pretty exciting - hopefully you''ll have the PnP up and running in your own shop quickly!  It's great to have all the manuals available with the machine - I'm sure they'll come in handy.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sam512bb on February 10, 2013, 06:00:04 pm
[quote author="bearmos"]that's all pretty exciting - hopefully you''ll have the PnP up and running in your own shop quickly!  It's great to have all the manuals available with the machine - I'm sure they'll come in handy.[/quote]

Good day Bearmos,

Indeed, it is pretty exciting... and scary too in a way, as there is a lot of know... Hopefully my training was absorbed.  Luckily the original owner, who I purchased the unit from, has offered to provide me remote setup assistance/training as I need.  This is a huge help and really reflects the character of the owner.  A true gentleman in all sense of the word.  Sadly it will be several weeks before I am ready to "jump" in, as I have a lot of other stuff on the go... plus I have yet to get my reflow and stencil printer sorted. However, there is certainly something empowering knowing that I can now do a whole lot more myself ... like prototyping my BGA designs... I no longer have to bug my CM for a favor to mount a few BGAs to my test boards... or making a number of prototypes rather quickly (if one ignores the setup effort) and to a much higher level...  Lastly, there is the entertainment value...  For some unknown reason to me I find there is something entertaining/mesmorizing of watching a CNC machine working away :)

Cheers,

Sam
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: TrevorWhite on February 10, 2013, 08:11:41 pm
Is there any news on what happened if a part breaks on these machines? I am really interested in them but if something goes wrong is there any way of getting spares for it? I think it is a really important aspect of buying one of these machines.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: xinort on February 12, 2013, 12:13:04 am
Another quick update. I was quite frustrated when I posted my last message. My worker had seen the post and laughed at my statement that it would have been faster then by hand. In reality I just had to put more time into the build then usual. I think you are all right about this being normal pains of learning new equipment. The fact that I have no manual and no one else yet able to share their experiences has made it tough. I spent the weekend working to get things going and have had some success. Tape with bigger parts on it have a space between each part on the backside (such as the bigger tantalum capacitors. On the machine there is a 90 degree lip right before the tape enters the tape holder. The gap on the back side of the tape between the components was getting snagged on that 90 deg. lip which would stop the machine from being able to advance the tape. What I did was take a bent piece of mylar and attached it to the machine so that the tape can't get get stuck. It seems to have resolved that problem (picture attached)

[attachment=1]

I still can't get the vacuum sensor mode to work 100% although it does work better. I changed the height of some of the components and adjusted the pick up offset. That said I've just been using the machine with the vsensor feature turned off. So the machine doesn't know if it's picked up a part or not but it'a doing pretty good and not missing many that we have to place by hand. I've tried going slower and oddly it seems to work best on the fastest speed. Going slowthe part seems more likely to fall off. I'm wondering if there is a problem with the vacuum pump, as it can only hold onto the parts for a couple seconds. It doesn't seem to matter if it's an 0805 or a bigger component.

On a positive note, I've modified the mount-smd ulp script for eagle. I've made it so that it generates a nearly complete config file that the TM220A and TM240A can use directly. It ouputs the xy location of the parts in mm with two decimals, rotation, component reference and the comment is filled with the value of the component and the package name. Rotation was a bit tricky since eagle has 0-359 rotation values starting on the left side of the board and rotates counterclockwise whereas the machine needs a rotation value between -180 and +180 with 0 at the "top" of the board (back of the machine). It rotates clockwise in the positive values and ccw in the negative. A few lines of code has it squared away. This has sped up setting up the boards tremendously. My first one I hand wrote everything from the mount-smd.ulp output and it was quite time consuming. With the output from the attached ulp all you need to do is fill in the stack that the part is located at and the height of the component. It might just work from there however you can modify the file further to fine tune things. All components are by default set to use head 1, no offset on the part pickup location and use standard values for the feed settings. File is attached hope this helps someone out there.

-Dan
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on February 12, 2013, 07:09:50 am
Thanks for the ulp and update. Mine will hopefully be here this week, though it shipped right before New Year so I didn't get any tracking info. It will be a surprise when it arrives :)

Quote
Is there any news on what happened if a part breaks on these machines? I am really interested in them but if something goes wrong is there any way of getting spares for it? I think it is a really important aspect of buying one of these machines.

The manufacturer sold xinort extra parts and has been communicative with him, I assume they would supply replacement parts as long as they are around. This is probably not the ideal tool if you're concerned about spare parts and longevity though.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: TrevorWhite on February 13, 2013, 12:49:50 am
Thanks for the update.

With regard to reliability it is a good point that you can not actually really tell how long the company will be around for. But if they have designed it well then I would hope it is made from common building blocks. It would be nice to know if there is anything 'special' to the machine. 

I think for the money it needs to have some build quality. When you get your machine will you be doing a whole series of videos about it?

Trev
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on February 13, 2013, 07:25:06 am
At least one video, depends on how it goes I suppose :)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: richardw on February 13, 2013, 05:36:42 pm
I'm very interested in the TM220A, I'm getting close to the point that I need to increase my manufacturing capabilities, I'm currently using a completely manual pick and place, really basic but better than using tweezers by hand: abacom-tech ezPick

I've looked over this page:
TM220A_Pick_and_Place_resources
I see some committed buyers but what is the latest plan to get some of these imported to the US?

Also anyone have any experience or opinions on this machine:
Madell Technology SM-100
it's $4850 has some automatic placement, but its mostly semi auto, needs some manual assistance since it doesn't have computer vision, it does have a camera and has a cool split view mode for things like BGA alignment, you can watch the video on their website for a better idea... it is at least shipped from the US and seems like the quality / reliability is really good.... any input anyone has would be greatly appreciated to help in the decision making process.

Thanks.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on February 13, 2013, 05:56:06 pm
I have made contact with the manufacturer, but then the Chinese New Year hit and nobody is on QQ. I expect communication will resume next monday.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on February 14, 2013, 01:09:59 pm
I just got a call from the customs office for clarification of the item tariff code. My TM220A could be here tonight, probably tomorrow.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: xinort on February 15, 2013, 03:01:03 am
Hi All,

I got some good news. Today we discovered a small piece of foam stuck in the head, once removed the machine is now working even with the vsensor feature turned on. Now the only problem I'm facing is I have .01uf 0805 caps that are in the plastic tape, the machine doesn't do that great advancing this type of tape as it gets bound up when being pushed out the exit of the tape holder. A slight bit of pull on  during the build and it works but I've got a reel of the same part in the normal paper tape on the way and that problem will be resolved. The machine is working very well.

I'm not certain but there maybe a mistake in the ULP file I'd uploaded. The 90 degree to 179 might not be calculating right. I'm not sure if I accidentally used an old version when I generated a config file for a recent board or if there is indeed a mistake in the file I uploaded. I'll look it over and update the file if needed.

Ian, expect one big ole plywood box. One thing is for sure it's very well packaged. I'd been contacted by customs as well. The agent I spoke with didn't seem to get what it was despite me describing it in several ways. In the end he seemed convinced it was a desktop computer and I wasn't going to argue with him. I received the duty invoice from fedex and to my surprise $0 was due. Don't know how or if another bill will come but I'm not complaining.

-Xinort
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on February 15, 2013, 06:55:39 am
excellent news, xinort - i'm really glad you got things to working.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on February 15, 2013, 11:18:31 am
I'm here waiting like a kid for christmas. Should be here within the hour, if they don't decide to torture me more than usual.

Mine was actually repackaged because the wood crate was unacceptable for UPS. Hoping that doesn't cause issues.

Had a similar experience with customs. They wanted to know what it was and the code, and didn't get what a pick and place is. I said I had an invoice from a previous tool shipment and maybe that code would be helpful. I gave the 'welding machine and tools' code, which he said was his first choice, so everyone seemed happy. I'm _SURE_ I will pay tax on it, they charge me $35 just for the privilege of assessing a tax, even if that tax is $0.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on February 15, 2013, 06:04:33 pm
I'm really very happy so far. Only messing around, but no stuck feeders and not a single dropped or vacuum sensor rejected part.

There does appear to be a loose bolt or nut rolling around inside the body. It will be quite a task to pull it apart to find out what that is. Vacuum pumps are a little loud and grating, and always on even if not in active use :(

Seeing how the reel setup kind of enforces a certain collection of part sizes, I'd lean towards getting the bigger one if possible for the increased number of reels. I couldn't afford it or get it in the workshop though, so I'm still very happy with this one. We don't even have enough parts to fill the entire stack yet, just worried about the future.

It is 'stuck' in chinese. I can get english to load in a really round-about way, but it does not save after power down. That will need a special warranty voiding password from the manufacturer :( Will pursue that after the holiday.

I contacted our ULP guru who is going to automate the stack setup, and add a GUI to assign stacks different than the default all from Eagle.

I will convert and share the instructional videos. I thought xinort got some with subtitles, mine are 100% in chinese (which I only understand 0.5%, mostly numbers).
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on February 15, 2013, 06:14:16 pm
glad everything is working, ian.  looking forward to seeing it run some PCBA's :)  Now, you can officially join the PnP "Lifestyle".
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ColinFitzgerald on February 16, 2013, 01:11:46 am
Hi all!

I don't want to hijack this thread, so I'll be brief:

I'm super excited to see so many people doing SMT work, and myself, in the process of setting up a small SMT CM service specifically for the very low volume market (1-100pc).  As many have found out, doing P&P isn't easy or cheap.

Anyway, I'd be very grateful if those looking for or doing SMT P&P contact me for some market research.  My goal so far is just to find out what peoples needs are and what kind of solutions are out there.  I want to help ease your pain!

In return, I've much low low volume SMT experience, so I'll do my best to answer any and all questions!

Thank-you very much !!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: macpod on February 16, 2013, 03:38:42 am
Waiting for these videos is killing me! I've been using all of the equipment you have purchased for quite a while, but never looked into buying a pick and place machine. I want one, but I'm still not sure if I can justify getting one...

Either my boards require assembly with fabrication houses that have xray inspection capabilities and certifications or they are general consumer/hobbyist boards that can be made overseas for a very low rate. Sadly it's hard to argue purchasing one when it's cost rivals that of the shipping/duty/assembly/packaging/shipping back of 6-7 runs. Worse off, it doesn't help me with TH components or any wiring/crimping.

Someone help me justify one! :D

Colin are you accredited? What type of equipment do you plan to have? E.g. are you going to compete with an establishment like screaming circuits, or are you planning to work within price ranges possible to achieve by outsourcing to china?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on February 16, 2013, 08:58:53 am
Colin - welcome to the forum and good luck with your business. Maybe we should start a thread (or forum) for low low volume assembly ventures discussion.

I don't mean to be discouraging, but we see someone with a similar plan post about once a month. As far as I know most don't go through with it. I always assume it is because of lack of experience (not a problem for you), but more importantly because there's no profit in doing one-offs for hobbyists who are usually after the cheapest deal they can scrounge. Again, I don't mean to discourage, I would LOVE to see a dependable low-volume assembly house, it would be great for open hardware.

We have a backlog of dozens, if not hundreds, of PCBs we designed but never stuffed because I'm the only guy doing soldering. I've talked to a bunch of people willing to pick up some of the slack, but it never quite works out. Aside from hiring someone to solder for me in-house (not feasible), a PnP at this price seemed like the only option.

One thing that helps make the small machine useful is a standardized set of parts. We already work off a fairly small partlist, and have reduced it even further for the 'stack' of parts in the TM220A. Seeed Studio has the bigger model, and will also be offering assembly of low low volume stuff, so we plan to standardize together on a limited part library to facilitate cheap PnP.

Setup time seems to eat into low volume PnP profitability. Our goal is a one-click output of PnP files from Eagle using automatic stack assignments based on part size and values. We already have the code base from our image and BOM export script, look for progress on this in the next week.

macpod - Don't look to me to justify it :) The machine is working ok so far, but my expectations are low:
1. If it can barf the most common parts anywhere on the board, it is faster to fix everything than hand place and solder. If it only turns out to be an automatic messy kit maker, I'm a happy guy!
2. I get hands on experience with an important tool, and it's probably slightly less expensive than finding and taking a class on PnP. Plus I get to keep the PnP at the end :)
3. There's obviously a publicity factor. These posts are getting lots of hits, and having this equipment makes us a more legit shop. The PR is also more organic, longer lasting, and cheaper than an ad in Make magazine for example.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: JuKu on February 16, 2013, 10:08:54 am
[quote author="ian"]Maybe we should start a thread (or forum) for low low volume assembly ventures discussion.
[/quote]
Or just broaden the scope of this one to include tools and services. :)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: JuKu on February 16, 2013, 10:49:57 am
[quote author="ColinFitzgerald"]
Anyway, I'd be very grateful if those looking for or doing SMT P&P contact me for some market research.  My goal so far is just to find out what peoples needs are and what kind of solutions are out there.  I want to help ease your pain!
[/quote]
Hi Colin,

Feel free to hijack my thread about prototype P&P on this forum. :)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tsillen on February 16, 2013, 07:28:28 pm
It wouldn't be hard or expensive to make this pick n place more reliable and faster.
As the machine is made out of alu profiles it isn't hard to replace the linear bearing system by hiwin rails.
(http://http://www.hiwin.com/images/lg/eg_main.jpg)
These rails are also used in the professional pnp machines and the cnc world.
Because of the resonably low forces you have with an pnp machine you can get the smallest size of linear rail. And it will be quite affordable. An example: HGR20 rails is 58 euro per meter. And the carrage cost 35 euro each (#1).

For the linear motion you should use Ballscrew. It deletes backslash which you would certainly have using those ... rubber bands?
Most people in the diy cnc zone use a guy on ebay who is stationed in china called linearmotionbearings2008 . When contacted via email he will give you a price for all the stuff you need and also end machining , bearing blocks etc ... The quality has been proven on many sites like cnczone.com.
(http://http://i.ebayimg.com/t/3-anti-backlash-ballscrew-RM1605-250-650-1000mm-C7-cnc-/22/!BVsfvz!BWk~$(KGrHgoH-CsEjlLlzPB1BKT2QelV0w~~_12.JPG)
Pricing of those ballscrews ? A set i saw on his ebay shop was for 3 axis. Size RM1605 , measurements 250mm , 650mm and 1000mm. Including the ballscrew nuts the set goes for 74 euro (99USD) ex. shipping (#2).
To do the conversion you would also need some aluminium adapters custom made. That has to be done by yourself or an company / other hobbyist.

When the ballscrew mod is done the machine probably will have an offset because of the change in advancement per rotation.
This could be changed in the software but i doubt that the company will give you access to those menu's . Another way is to use some kind of gear ratio on the stepper motors so that the offset will be fixed.

I don't know the exact measurements of the machine etc... but my guess is that the machine can be retrofitted for about 400-500 dollar. When looking at the base price of 3600 for the machine and 400-500 for the mods the total cost would be 4000-4100 USD.

I would love to buy the pick n place and do the mods i mentioned. But as a student i hardly can justify such a purchase without paying it back whit some kind of pcb assembly service or whatever.

One idea would be that there is some kind of research kickstarter campaign in small scale electronics producing.
The funding goal for something like that would be around 8000 USD depending on the aspects that will be researched.
Why 8000 USD ?
* purchase of the cheap pick n place machine (TM220 / TM240) : 3600-4700 USD
* Diffrent nozzels etc: 200 usd ?
* (possible) mods to the machine (hiwin , ballscrew) +_ 500 usd ?
* Shipping to europe +_ 470 usd ?

total: 3600 + 200 + 500 + 470 = 4770 (ex. tax)
        4700 + 200 + 500 + 470 = 5870 (ex. tax)

The rest of the money could be spended on these topics:

Smt stencils like polymer are really affordable now. An A4 size (21x22cm) stencil costs 18USD form like smtstencil.co.uk.
For that price it does not pay to diy it. If a higher volume stencil is needed , the "soda can" method could be used. But instead of using a soda cans just buy alu sheets in the size you need and it will be much more durable than the polymer ones.
(http://http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oMbxxS873oE/UBpF7e-H6BI/AAAAAAAAAKY/kX3J_RY99pY/s640/IMG_1569.JPG)

"Baking" the boards can be done using an modded toaster oven which has heat circulation to make the process even better.
(http://https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRoqiIt18OEKQaGC_p8u012Ej5svzwZTA9dPrI7nqcBFHcb1yxsSg)
A pid controller should be used to control this process. Because it will be done diy style you can choose which size of oven you will be using. mikeselectricstuff @youtube uses an commercial pizza oven for his boards and that works out great.

Testing your product is a big part of kit producing so test / programming rigs have to be made. Laser cutted sheets can make up such appliance and pogo-pins would be used to contact the pads.
 (http://https://www.workingwidget.com/images/TestFix01.jpg)

This post is long enough now ... i'll lest somone comment before i type more.


#1: http://www.shop.cncdrive.com/index.php?categoryID=110 (http://www.shop.cncdrive.com/index.php?categoryID=110)
#2: http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-anti-backlash ... 1174992568 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-anti-backlash-ballscrew-RM1605-250-650-1000mm-C7-cnc-/251174992568)?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on February 16, 2013, 07:52:50 pm
Hi there, Ian.

Just chatting with my business partner this morning and he is questioning my choice of the small machine.  So: I should ask if you can get the price on the larger machine - there is a distinct possibility that will be the machine for me.

And - I hope that both you and xinort are able to keep us updated on your adventures with your machines.  I'm really quite envious and very much looking forward to having a machine of my own to begin learning.

Many thanks!

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: xinort on February 16, 2013, 10:01:46 pm
If I knew what I know now, I absolutely would have gone with the bigger pnp (TM240A). For certain boards we have to run them through multiple sets of parts, so we install a set then then run a program then take out all the parts and then reel up a whole new set and it's quite time consuming. We've been having a competition at the shop for how fast we can put a new reel in. I currently hold the record at 58 seconds but I'm certain it can be done several seconds faster. That said at a normal pace it takes about 2 minutes for each and that doesn't include removing the reels that are already there. I figure it's probably about 45-60 minutes to remove the currently installed reels, install another batch then put the normal ones back on. On top of that it's seems a bit harder to reinstall a previously used reel. So again I'd definitely go with the bigger model that has more stacks.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tsillen on February 16, 2013, 11:07:13 pm
Xinort , could you post a video about the machine?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on February 17, 2013, 09:06:14 am
I started documenting the protocol on the wiki, including some stack offset values for common parts:
http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/TM2 ... ile_format (http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/TM220A_Pick_and_Place_resources#Placement_file_format)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tsillen on February 17, 2013, 10:43:40 am
Is there an easy way to export the placement from altium ?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: xinort on February 17, 2013, 08:40:44 pm
Yes, a tool is included with the machine that works with Altium/Protel. I use eagle so I haven't used it or know exactly how it works. One of the training videos shows how it's done albeit in Chinese. Anyone know of a good site to upload/share large files? I tried a couple and they are all a pita or limit file size. All the training videos combined are nearly a gig.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: protodrew on February 17, 2013, 10:45:39 pm
Hi - I've got an FTP server set up in my LAB (a little slow) - the username is 'dp' & password is 'dp' - address is rack001.no-ip.org port 21


Feel free to add the video (and any other) content here.


Drew
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tsillen on February 17, 2013, 11:12:43 pm
Or put it on dropbox / google drive
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on February 18, 2013, 03:30:46 am
I don't know if this helps, but Box.com and Dell are offering a free 50GB cloud storage solution.  No cost and the 50GB is free for life (or however box.com is around).  The only downside is that maximum file size is 250MB.

My thought would be to upload the videos to your account on box.com, then publish the link that they give you so that others can download the videos.

http://https://www.box.com/signup/o/dell_50gb_give_get

It might be worth a try.

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: xinort on February 18, 2013, 04:25:53 am
I'm uploading the video's to Drew's ftp server. Looks like it should be done in about 45 mins
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: neslekkim on February 18, 2013, 07:24:32 am
share files => dropbox
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: xinort on February 18, 2013, 07:59:27 am
The files are on Drews FTP server if someone wants to get them on dropbox or wherever that would be great. The file stalled at first and I don't have access to resume or delete so I re-uploaded with another file name. The first one won't unzip since it's only a partial file. Enjoy.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tsillen on February 18, 2013, 11:22:51 am
The password was changed of the ftp ? i used dp and dp but coulden't get in.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on February 18, 2013, 12:42:31 pm
I talked to the factory and worked out 'the' deal :) Emails out to everyone signed up previously. If you are a dedicated buyer and willing and able to wire money to china today, you can own a TM220A for less than 21500RMB or the TM240A for less than 28,000RMB. Shipping is another $300-$400 USD depending on location and model. Contact me somehow and I'll give you complete details on the "special" price.

If you are reading this after Tuesday February 19th it is too late!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on February 18, 2013, 04:35:48 pm
The ULP for exporting is off to a great start. I started a new thread (with pictures) here:
viewtopic.php?f=68&t=5214&p=50325#p50325 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=5214&p=50325#p50325)

Stack setup and configuration is working. Still very alpha though.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sjaak on February 18, 2013, 10:29:25 pm
Does someone have more info about the internals of the machine? I can imagine you don't wnat to disassemble a 4000$ machine you are depending on..
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on February 19, 2013, 01:50:21 am
[quote author="Sjaak"]Does someone have more info about the internals of the machine? I can imagine you don't wnat to disassemble a 4000$ machine you are depending on..[/quote]

I'm certainly planning to see what is inside the head.  I would imagine that the rest of the machine is fairly standard in terms of CNC stuff - steppers driving belts that move the gantry and head around.  And - popping the bottom cover off to look at the stepper drivers and power supply should be fairly easy.

But I suspect the real magic is inside the head.

I'll take photos and such - and would very much like to see and hear about what others discover about their machines.

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on February 19, 2013, 07:54:37 am
It is SO tempting to pull it apart, I have resisted because it looks like a big pain, and I'm supposed to be doing actual work with it ;)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: JuKu on February 19, 2013, 12:15:26 pm
[quote author="ian"]It is SO tempting to pull it apart...[/quote]
Go for it! And please have video camera at hand. :)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: richardw on February 20, 2013, 03:24:06 pm
[quote author="ian"]I talked to the factory and worked out 'the' deal :) Emails out to everyone signed up previously. If you are a dedicated buyer and willing and able to wire money to china today, you can own a TM220A for less than 21500RMB or the TM240A for less than 28,000RMB. Shipping is another $300-$400 USD depending on location and model. Contact me somehow and I'll give you complete details on the "special" price.

If you are reading this after Tuesday February 19th it is too late![/quote]

Do you think there will be another round of orders at some point? I am still very interested but I was not ready to put the funds in on time for this one.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on February 20, 2013, 03:52:58 pm
I think you can just ping me. We're pretty much a 'dealer' now I guess.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on February 20, 2013, 04:28:30 pm
[quote author="ian"]I think you can just ping me. We're pretty much a 'dealer' now I guess.[/quote]

good to know :)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sjaak on February 20, 2013, 04:36:41 pm
[quote author="ian"]I think you can just ping me. We're pretty much a 'dealer' now I guess.[/quote]

Special price?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on February 20, 2013, 05:01:06 pm
Probably for future ones I will work out a commission or something. We can still beat the TaoBao price price though.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: velias on February 20, 2013, 06:29:57 pm
Its amazing how many views this topic has gotten the past few weeks, showing all the interest in an inexpensive product like this.  Seems like there a big market for this size/price product.
But has anyone even used this thing yet?
Are there any real videos by real end-users of it working in a real life situation?
How accurate is it? How does it work as far as calibration/setup etc.
what are its limitations/accuracy?
I'd like to see a close up of a fully stuffed board produced by this thing.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: royco on February 20, 2013, 08:25:10 pm
[quote author="velias"]
I'd like to see a close up of a fully stuffed board produced by this thing.[/quote]

http://http://www.hoektronics.com/2013/01/05/meet-a-shenzhen-maker-mr-chen/

There's a close up of the board that was stuffed by the bigger TM240A machine. If you watch the video, the guy says that he needs to re-position some of the parts after placement. It isn't perfect since it has no vision but I think after a few uses and getting the hang of it, you can make it work with minor parts adjustment.

Xinort has it working well after some initial setup issues.

I cant wait to get my TM240A, hopefully by mid next week.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: velias on February 20, 2013, 08:50:29 pm
I'd like to know how it works so well without vision.
I see how it advances each tape with a pin or the vacuum pickup in the pickup head, but how does the user initially get the position of the tapes registered so perfect to get things started? Do they just eyeball it?  How do you register the board position?

I notice in some of the videos it seems to go to a home position in the bottom left corner after each placement, but not always.
I'd like to see a slow motion version of the videos.

Some primitive pick and places get the component aligned in the vacuum pickup by moving the head to a edge of a well on the flatbed and going left, right, forward, back inside the well against the edges to slide the part to the center of the pickup.  I wonder if it uses the componant carrier tape as the well?  I guess the vision ones just take a picture of it in the pickup and then correct any misalignment mathematically to get the final place position.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sjaak on February 20, 2013, 09:52:51 pm
[quote author="velias"]I'd like to know how it works so well without vision.[/quote]

I think by using steppermotor and precisely controlling them. Also the manufacturing process it pretty forgiving, the surface tension of molten solder will drag the component into it precise place

[quote author="velias"]
I see how it advances each tape with the a pin in the pickup head, but how does the user initially get the position of the tapes registered so perfect to get things started? Do they just eyeball it?
[/quote]

you can see the details in the datasheets where the component is positioned in teh reel
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on February 20, 2013, 11:00:58 pm
We sent our payment for the '240A machine via wire transfer yesterday.  Shipping was higher than I expected - US $595 to Canada for the large machine.  I had hoped for shipping to be in the $400 range.

But we paid it - I think the machine is a bargain for the price.

Question for Ian - I don't know if its too late, but would the manufacturer consider sending a bare PCB with matching PnP file so that we can see the machine in operation when we get it?  Plus - being able to match up a physical PCB to the file contents would make generating our own files easier in the beginning.

Another question: how do we set up for panels of multiple identical boards?  The first panel that I want to run through the machine is an array of 6 identical boards in a 2 x 3 arrangement.

Thanks!

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: royco on February 21, 2013, 01:48:54 am
@dwayneR  - That sounds like a good idea. It'll get you up and running faster if you are trying to learn from a known working config.

For panels I think the command on the wiki defines the 0,0 (X,Y) of each board in the panel. Just a guess.

%,JointedBoardCommand,X,Y
65535,3,1,0,0,0,0,0,

Im also preparing a short script to quickly try it out. I use Diptrace so I cant use the ULP for Eagle.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on February 21, 2013, 02:36:07 am
[quote author="royco"] Im also preparing a short script to quickly try it out. I use Diptrace so I cant use the ULP for Eagle.[/quote]

Yeah - I use something called "CADint" - the current incarnation of the old CAD package that I still use: EE Designer II.  Alas - neither EE Designer II or CADint understands Eagle ULP files <grin>.

I am really quite curious about the copy of Altium that the manufacturer says comes with the machine - is this a license that Altium knows about and sanctions or is it one of those things that you don't want to be caught using?

I used to have an engineer from Switzerland working with us - he was a grad fresh out of engineering school and came to get some real "hands-on" experience with a small company.  He stayed with us for a little less than 3 years and I miss him dearly.  One of the smartest people that I've ever had the pleasure of working with.

Anyway, the school he trained at (in Switzerland) had an arrangement with Altium whereupon the students could purchase their own licenses very inexpensively.  As a result, Marcel had his own license of Altium with him when he came to work with us - and he *really* liked it.  He showed me a bunch of things that he thought were pretty cool and I got to play with his copy off and on for a couple of years.

But - I never got comfortable with it and have stayed with EE Designer II / CADint - just because its easier to stay with something that I know as opposed to having to learn a new package from scratch.  I even turned down a real sweetheart of a deal - I'm part of Microchip's "Design Partner" program and Microchip had arranged a one-time purchase of Altium for every design seat at Microchip *and* any of the Design Partners who wanted to purchase licenses at a very significant discount.  But it was still going to be something like 10 grand for 4 seats, so I passed on the deal.  Its not that it was a bad deal (it was a pretty good deal) but the annual maintenance fees would have been just killer.  Nope - no discount on maintenance.  And - Altium wouldn't let us cheat by purchasing maintenance for only a single seat - its an all or nothing affair. 

So I turned down the offer.

Anyway, I'd be interested in learning how you approach generating your config files - hopefully, I can learn from the approach that you use and adapt it to my particular situation.  And, of course, I'll post whatever I come up with.

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on February 21, 2013, 02:54:30 am
I've been dealing with someone named Mia from the company that manufactures the machine.  I asked her about sending a PCB with matching config file - she says "No Problem". 

I had also asked about panelization.  Here is her reply (copy and paste):

There's a setting colume for panel setup in the programming file as below, one instruction (for example: 65535, 3, 10, 0) stands for one jointed board. If you got jointed boards, no matter how the arrangement are between the boards, start from the second board (no need to set panel setup for first board), you need to setup the panel instruction. 65535 and 3 means panel setup instruction, keep it identical for all jointed boards, X, Y means the Origin for the jointed board.

Panel setup

Panelized boards command=3
% Command X Y
65535 3 10 0

Let me know if my explaination above is not clear enough. Thanks.

<end of copy>

I'll ask her for clarification - the above config line looks good for a panel consisting to two boards.  But I want to know how to do an array of n X nn (example: 2 x 3).  Its just not clear to me yet.

Or: do you have multiple panel commands, each specifying the origin of a particular board in the panel?  That actually sort of makes sense. 

That is:

65535 3 10 0  % board #2
65535 3 20 0  % board #3
65535 3 0 10  % board #4
65535 3 0 20  % board #5
65535 3 20 20  % board #6

Does the above make any sense?

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on February 21, 2013, 07:25:06 am
Xinort, Seeed Studio, and myself have all been using the machine. I would guess we all find it usable. I will have videos this afternoon, but our ULP is not progressed to the point where it's super usable and I refuse to hand code the files (our goal is to stuff passives on 50 different backlogged boards).

As Sjaak says, it does depend a bit on the surface tension of solder and a proper reflow process.

Quote
65535 3 10 0 % board #2
65535 3 20 0 % board #3
65535 3 0 10 % board #4
65535 3 0 20 % board #5
65535 3 20 20 % board #6

I think this is closest. There is a partial english manual and many demos. I attached them.

No, I do not think the (Chinese language/region version) of Altium (or Office 2003) should be used outside China.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ohararp on February 21, 2013, 10:01:32 pm
I am super interested in purchasing a TM220A machine.  Please let me know the best way forward!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on February 22, 2013, 02:02:36 am
Well, I just now tried to get PnP data from my CAD package: CADint.  The early version that I'm using has PnP data for several different formats: My Data, Panasonic, SPEA (whatever that is) and a couple of others.  But the format that seems to be the closest to what this machine needs is a format that they call "Siemens Simple".  Its going to take some massaging to make it work but its already pretty close.  Here is a sample from one of my older SMD boards:

L502c0
U CAD-ASCII

02/21/13
  62,  0,  0,  0,  0,  0,  0,  0
  1,            ,  12.38,  31.75,  0.0, ,BT+        ,  0
  2,            ,  12.38,  1.27,  0.0, ,BT-        ,  0
  3,            ,  14.92,  19.05,  0.0, ,C1          ,  0
  4,            ,  31.75,  19.84,  90.0, ,C10        ,  0
  5,            ,  28.42,  28.57, 180.0, ,C11        ,  0
  6,            ,  39.69,  19.84,  90.0, ,C12        ,  0
<snip>
  30,            ,  3.17,  21.59,  90.0, ,L1          ,  0
  31,            ,  3.17,  8.26,  90.0, ,L2          ,  0
  32,            ,  2.86,  1.59, 180.0, ,L3          ,  0
  33,            ,  2.86,  31.43, 180.0, ,L4          ,  0
  34,            ,  14.61,  23.18,  90.0, ,Q1          ,  0
  35,            ,  7.46,  19.68,  0.0, ,R1          ,  0
  36,            ,  39.69,  26.19, 270.0, ,R10        ,  0
  37,            ,  37.31,  11.11, 180.0, ,R11        ,  0

The first field is the component number (not ID, just a sequential number from 1 to n), then a blank field, then the X location, then the Y location (both in mm), the rotation from 0 to 359 degrees, another blank field, the component ID, and finally a field that is populated with a zero.  The X and Y locations are referenced to the lower left corner of the board.

Its useful that the PnP data is already in metric format - it means that I don't have to convert from Imperial measurements (inches and fractions of inches).  I checked the location of a couple of dozen components - the center appears to be the exact geometric center of the silk-screen legend.  I suppose that it could be the geometric center of the pads as well - I won't know until I look at a board that has a component with asymmetrical lands.  But for now, the location data is exactly perfect.

So: the first thing that I need to do is to find out what the machine considers to be zero rotation.  Is Zero rotation considered to be the component as it sits in the carrier tape?  Seems logical but I need to find out.  Ian - do you know?

I guess that I also need to find someone who is competent with a scripting language such as Perl.  Me - I'm not even vaguely competent - its just not anything that I normally need to do.

What I'd like to wind up with is a utility that would strip out the extraneous data from the file, put a comment symbol before the component ID, and convert the rotation into the plus minus 180 degrees that the machine wants.  A real bonus would be to also sort the file so that travel time is minimized.

Anyone interested?

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sleepwalker3 on February 22, 2013, 01:21:43 pm
Here http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/2013/02/15/workshop-update-for-february-15th-2013/ Ian says "Drug pick and place up stairs. Watched instructional videos in Chinese."

Now...

[quote author="ian"]I think you can just ping me. We're pretty much a 'dealer' now I guess.[/quote]

Hmm, first a 'drug pick and place' and now being a dealer!  Sheesh they really are liberal over there    ;)

Must have been an interesting Chinese instructional Video, what was it, Cheech and Chong?
(for those that are too young to know http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2pXxHW1DHs )


Disclaimer - This post is done in jest and I'm sure nobody at DP or in the forum condones the use of illegal substances - (though I've heard some people here regularly inhale Flux fumes!)

If this post offends anybody, let me know and I'll remove it, it's all just done in fun and is in no way serious  :)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: systemstech on February 22, 2013, 01:50:31 pm
Just before he dragged the PnP upstairs he was working with the reflow oven. The fumes must have gotten to him. :)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sleepwalker3 on February 22, 2013, 01:58:20 pm
The oven must have been for the Dutch Bakery, apparently they make nice cookies and brownies
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: thiadmer on February 22, 2013, 09:57:48 pm
[quote author="DwayneR"]What I'd like to wind up with is a utility that would strip out the extraneous data from the file, put a comment symbol before the component ID, and convert the rotation into the plus minus 180 degrees that the machine wants.  A real bonus would be to also sort the file so that travel time is minimized.

Anyone interested?[/quote]
This is a task that I want to take up. But... it will take some time. I want to do this when I have a TM-220A of my own. In all likeliness, I will not order until beginning of June.

What I envision is to generate the control files for the TM-220A via a plug-in for a program that already exists. This program, VisualPlace, allows you to read, edit, create and save pick & place files (which it calls "centroid files"). I can add fields for the feeder (stack) and the component height in the BOM table. In the export plug-in for the TM-220A (to be written), I would then have fields to specify the nozzles (and which nozzle must be used for which feeder). The plug-in can then try to find an optimal sequence where it picks up two components at once, as often as possible.

You can do the same with an Eagle ULP, of course. But an ULP only works with Eagle. VisualPlace works with other EDA suites too.

But again, I plan to only start this after I get my machine, which won't be before June.

Thiadmer
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: CheBuzz on February 24, 2013, 06:29:49 pm
I ordered one of these.  Shipping changed at the last minute and was almost $100 more, so mine was more like $3700.  Apparently they FEDEX is not accepting crate shipments anymore?

Anyway, my EDA of choice is KiCAD.  I wonder what the possibility of getting KiCAD to output a PnP file?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on February 24, 2013, 10:48:17 pm
I ordered a TM240A (the larger machine) and the total cost (including shipping to Edmonton, Canada) was US $5071.  The ship cost was $595, which was considerably higher than what I had expected, based on Ian's experience.  But we went for it anyway.

I am indeed hoping to use this in a production environment, for small runs of 10 to 25 panels at a time.  Most of my SMT boards are tiny, so each panel has anywhere from 6 to 12 boards.  I'm now ordering paste stencils from the PCB supplier - they are supplying stainless-steel stencils for US $50.  I did ask if they can drop that price any - for my most recent PCB order (late last week), they dropped the stencil cost down to US $45.  I'm not going to push them any harder - I think that $45 is a reasonable price to pay for stainless.

I have heard that Seeed Studio will be offering a stencil service with their boards - I may have to check that out as well. 

I'm hoping that my machine arrives late this coming week or early next.  I'm currently looking at using one of my text editors (TSE or UltraEdit) to see if I can automate converting the PnP placement data from my CAD package into the format that the TM240A wants to see.  But its been literally * YEARS * since I did any scripting with the macro language - I used to be pretty good at it but I'll be starting from scratch again.  I'll most likely start with TSE (from http://http://www.semware.com ) - I still use a heavily-customized version of Qedit (very, very early version of TSE - now know as TSE Junior) as my daily editor and I recall that it was fairly easy to make the macro language do what I wanted.

I still think that this machine will make a fine production machine.  Do recall that all of the early commercial PnP machines were based on dead-reckoning and did not have vision assistance.  Quite frankly, I think that the low cost PnP machines that do have vision are using the vision system to compensate for poor mechanical accuracy.  These machines without vision will have to be darned accurate - they have no choice if they are to be usable.  Certainly, the specifications do state that these machines are darned accurate - far more so than the early Zevatech machine that I worked on 15 or 20 years ago.  I never did see the Zevatech machine operating but its owners certainly made a lot of money from that machine - they were a tiny contract manufacturer here in Edmonton and that machine was the central part of their business.  But I flat out guarantee that it was not as accurate as the specifications of this machine.

Whether or not this machine meets its specifications is something that I am quite looking forward to finding out. <Grin>.

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sleepwalker3 on February 25, 2013, 10:02:21 am
Ian mentioned that Mitch was doing stainless stencils cheap, Hackvana was it?

Any machine is going to have expansion and contraction and machines like this will have twist and warp too, so make sure you set it up on a solid, properly flat bench that is braced, levelled and anchored and preferably in an air-cond area if you're even thinking about any sort of production use. Ensure the machine itself is levelled too

Accuracy on paper doesn't always translate to accuracy in practise and also accuracy is different to repeatability. Many people get steppers with microstepping drives and think that because they have a 10x microstepping (or whatever value), that they are somehow going to magically have 10x accuracy - the reality is very different.  These machines will likely be 'good enough' for very small runs, but they are not built like a proper production machine, so at best you would only use it for small runs and do everything you can to help it, like the things mentioned above.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sleepwalker3 on February 25, 2013, 10:33:00 am
Also re. editing the files, it will depend on lot on whether it's some kind of Binary format or text related as to how you tackle it and that could vary between products. You may not realise that Ultraedit has had Scripting for some time, not just Macros, so worth checking that out, especially when combined with Regular Expressions. Overall though if I was doing it myself I'd probably use a proper programming language like PowerBasic, but that's just me.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on February 25, 2013, 01:43:32 pm
[quote author="thiadmer"]This program, VisualPlace, allows you to read, edit, create and save pick & place files (which it calls "centroid files"). I can add fields for the feeder (stack) and the component height in the BOM table[/quote]
Looks like visual place is freely available, which would certainly make it accessible for a large number of hobbyists.  Looks like a decent interface as well.  I wonder what the Open PnP project's planning software is looking like these days?

Sleepwalker3 - all very valid points.  Part of the difference between the spec's of today's machines with micro stepping stepper drives and the spec's of older machines is that manf tend to spec theoretical accuracy with micro-stepping today.  Back in the day, these spec's were generally made with at most half-stepping and a lot of mechanical gear reduction (in one form or another), so it was far more likely to be realized.  Either that or they were built with closed-loop servo's.

At any rate, with this machine there's likely to be more inaccuracy with the part being off-center in it's packaging than from inaccuracies in the machine's motion itself (this is one place where vision comes in handy).
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: JuKu on February 25, 2013, 01:57:33 pm
Microstepping does increase real accuracy. While it is true that microstepping to, say, 0.3 (10x microstepping) might not get you exactly to 0.3, it does get you somewhere between 0.2 and 0.4. Much better than having only full steps.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on February 25, 2013, 02:25:51 pm
[quote author="JuKu"]Microstepping does increase real accuracy. While it is true that microstepping to, say, 0.3 (10x microstepping) might not get you exactly to 0.3, it does get you somewhere between 0.2 and 0.4. Much better than having only full steps.[/quote]
Absolutely, the issue is that it depends on the winding of the stepper motor and may not be consistent.  If you really "need" the accuracy of each and every micro-step, then full-stepping with gear reduction is going to be more reliable, but slower.  Microstepping also gives other advantages like smoother travel and fewer vibrations due to torque variations (at the expense of loosing some torque). 

My point was mainly that old-school systems didn't rely on micro-stepping to hit their spec's, so it's accuracy was a non-issue.  When it comes to machines in this price range, microstepping drives with stepper motors that are direct/belt driven or leadscrew driven axises are the best bang for the buck.  Ballscrews aren't at a price-point that can be competitive in this space quiet yet (but they seem to be getting there).
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on February 25, 2013, 03:38:16 pm
[quote author="Sleepwalker3"]Also re. editing the files, it will depend on lot on whether it's some kind of Binary format or text related as to how you tackle it and that could vary between products. You may not realise that Ultraedit has had Scripting for some time, not just Macros, so worth checking that out, especially when combined with Regular Expressions. Overall though if I was doing it myself I'd probably use a proper programming language like PowerBasic, but that's just me.[/quote]

Like most CNC formats, this uses human-readable ASCII data as was detailed in an earlier message.

And, yes, I mentioned the possibility of using either TSE or UltraEdit specifically because of the extremely powerful macro *and* scripting capability that both packages offer.  I realize that there are * MANY * scripting languages now available and I had briefly considered learning Perl to accomplish what I want.  I do have the luxury of having spent much time with the very early macro language for the predecessor to the current version of TSE.  Alas - that was 15 or 20 years ago - and I have done very little such work since then.

Essentially, I'd be starting from scratch.

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: velias on February 25, 2013, 08:17:35 pm
[quote author="JuKu"]Microstepping does increase real accuracy. While it is true that microstepping to, say, 0.3 (10x microstepping) might not get you exactly to 0.3, it does get you somewhere between 0.2 and 0.4. Much better than having only full steps.[/quote]

I don't know a lot about this stuff, but why don't these things emulate ink jet printer mechanisms?  Seems to me the accuracy required of an ink jet printer is higher than any pick and place machine.  I think ink jets use a striped encoding band across the printhead movement area so theres feedback. Not sure if they use a dc motor or stepper to move the printhead.  Ink jet mechanisms are dirt cheap.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on February 25, 2013, 09:23:21 pm
[quote author="velias"]why don't these things emulate ink jet printer mechanisms?
...
 Not sure if they use a dc motor or stepper to move the printhead. Ink jet mechanisms are dirt cheap.
[/quote]
Buying industrial sensors to implement something like this in small quantities is usually pretty expensive.  The ink jets I've seen do use DC motors and linear encoders, but trying to do something similar (without scavenging parts) would be pretty pricey.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ammsolutions on February 26, 2013, 12:13:32 am
Hi Guys,

I have a TM220A and have been using it for about 2 months now in a low volume production environment. Not too many problems - the occasional dropped component, tape not advancing etc. I bought mine from Qinsi in Shenzhen in November 2012, I visited them and went through it all then shipped it back to australia along with a couple of SMT ovens, stencil printer etc. The guy at Qinsi has 0 english, the manual = chinese, the videos = chinese, the machine = chinese. He told me (thanks to Google translator), you cannot change the machine to english!  - I am confused as the chinese manual has pictures of the menus and they are in English !!!! - does anyone have a solution to changine to english ???

I'm pretty happy with this machine, we know it wont last for ever but it has already paid for itself over. When it does die, I think we will invest in the 240 as the limits on reels is starting to hit us...
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: royco on February 26, 2013, 01:10:11 am
I think Ian mentioned in his video review that you would need a password to change the menus, This was supplied to him by the manufacturer(at least you know it can be changed). I ordered mine in English so hopefully that's not going to be a problem I have to deal with.

Low volume production meaning? 20, 30 50 boards a day? Do you have the need to adjust parts into place often?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ammsolutions on February 26, 2013, 06:36:19 am
My supplier told me it was not possible to change to Ehglish  - which I find hard to understand given the maual has english menus in the photos. 

We manufacture about 20 panels a day, each containing 15 boards.

We use DipTrace software with an interface program to create the TM220 file - the file allows us to panelize
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: royco on February 26, 2013, 09:07:44 am
Thats a pretty good volume for a machine like this.

I use diptrace too and was thinking of just exporting the pick and place files and editing them in excel. Is the interface program you mentioned custom created for you or something I can acquire or create on my own?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ammsolutions on February 26, 2013, 11:58:01 pm
Hi Royco,

We developed an in house windows app to create the PnP file for the TM220. It takes the DipTrace PnP export without change. The system connects to a SQLServer Database and holds all the important stuff, like what components are on what stack and what head to use for each component - also automatically creates a file for panels, just feed it the panel size, boarder, number of horiz and vert panels and it does the rest. It's still a WIP, but when it's finished I may consider making it available publically. It's becoming quite sophisticated …

Cheers
Keith
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ammsolutions on February 27, 2013, 12:01:42 am
On Volume - This thing can keep up, we have the odd 'stuff up' I think the main thing we did to increase reliability is to only allow it to use a single head - so when the PnP file is created, we have all the Head 1's first then head 2's last. Not the fastest method, but in the long run it is much faster due to reliability.

It seems to fault when trying to pick up a 0603 size cap with something else - the 0603 falls off .. low vacuum maybe, if anyone has any ideas I would be grateful.....
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: xinort on February 27, 2013, 02:19:28 am
One thing that has helped me with the part dropping off is really getting the Stack Offset settings right. It's kind of a hassle since (at least on mine) the laser pointer is not active when changing the stack offset values and also the joystick doesn't work you need to change the x,y values then hit the joystick and it will move to the new location. A bit of eye balling and trial and error is required but has resolved our issues. Also use the NEEDLE button in the manual tab to be sure you have the part lined up right in the holder (that said we usually just eyeball it and the machine usually gets it right. FWIW we do what we can to use both heads when we can and haven't noticed any drops due to using both.

In regards to production rate, it can pump out up to 6000 components an hour. I see no reason I couldn't produce a couple thousand boards a day if the demand was there.

For language you should be able to change it for the "session" by changing the Language setting in the settings panel to 1 (it's the first one listed in the settings in case it's in Chinese), you'll need to do it every time you start the machine unfortunately.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ammsolutions on February 27, 2013, 02:45:31 am
Yep - Agree, eyeballing is what we do too.. As for language - I have the setting, but changing it has no effect ! .. is there something I am doing wrong ? - In fact, mine is 1 by default and that is Chinese .. Maybe you guys have different firmware, but I can't find it. Who did you get your machine from ? - I got mine from Qinsi Technology in Shenzhen . cost 39000 RMB (about $6200 USD :( )
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on February 27, 2013, 04:04:02 am
[quote author="ammsolutions"]Yep - Agree, eyeballing is what we do too.. As for language - I have the setting, but changing it has no effect ! .. is there something I am doing wrong ? - In fact, mine is 1 by default and that is Chinese .. Maybe you guys have different firmware, but I can't find it. [/quote]

Ian had said that you need to go into the settings menu, set the language to 0, then go to the main page and load a pick-and-place file.  That's when the language changes.

Note that the language reverts back to its default (Chinese in your case) everytime the machine is powered-up.

Ian or myself can put you in touch with the factory - talk to them about the language issue.  They *might* give you the password to make the settings permanent.

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ammsolutions on February 27, 2013, 04:36:17 am
GOLD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Factory contact details - Yes please - The password to make this perm would be awesome!... Thanks
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ammsolutions on February 27, 2013, 08:56:20 am
Here is mine working ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=subAg8XHkXU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=subAg8XHkXU)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on February 27, 2013, 01:50:33 pm
Thanks for sharing your experience ammsolutions, it's really encouraging.  A few more questions for you:):
- What are the smallest components you place - you mentioned 0603, do you find this to be about the lower limit of the machine?
- can it do fine pitch IC's - say .65mm or .5mm pitch?
- how much nudging of components needs done after everything is placed to ensure things reflow correctly?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ammsolutions on February 28, 2013, 02:53:07 am
0603 is the smallest we use - I see no reason why it couldn't do 0402's - the specs say it can... Our ICS comprise mainly SOIC (150mil) although we do have a product that uses a TSOP-40/10x16x0.5 and it has no problem.
Although some components appear to be placed crooked, a good reflow oven with accurate profiles will cause them to be pulled into place – we have this and it’s amazing how perfect finished boards look! – only occasionally does a component rotate off a pad and this is due to one end not coming into contact with the paste at all. I’ll post a few pics of before and after reflow.
Realistically, for the price I don’t think it can be beaten – look at the SMD PnP machines form Manncorp in the USA, they have a manual machine for $4295 (http://www.manncorp.com/smt/prod-179/sm ... place.html (http://www.manncorp.com/smt/prod-179/smt-place-2000-manual-pick-and-place.html) ) Have a look at the specs then you see how good the TM220 looks!!!..
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: digistump on February 28, 2013, 03:06:22 am
[quote author="ammsolutions"]Although some components appear to be placed crooked, a good reflow oven with accurate profiles will cause them to be pulled into place – we have this and it’s amazing how perfect finished boards look! [/quote]

Would you mind telling us what oven you are using with this? I have a TM240A for small production use on the way, I was part of the group buy here - but I"m still searching for an oven to use with it.

Thanks for all the great info!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ammsolutions on February 28, 2013, 03:15:16 am
It's a QS-5180C from Qinsi Technology (Shenzhen China). Most of these IR ovens are similar - it's all in the configuration!!! I got the guys at Qinsi to configure it for me whilst I was in their office in Shenzhen - the profile is specifically for Sn42/Bi58 RoHS Solder paste. Its important to match the profile up with the solder being used.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on February 28, 2013, 01:30:28 pm
[quote author="ammsolutions"]Have a look at the specs then you see how good the TM220 looks!!!..[/quote]
I know how good (on paper) it looks - the real question was how it is in operation in the "real world" ;-)  Thanks a lot for sharing, it sounds like, with the proper configuration it'll do modest boards just fine.  I was a little leery of the lack of vision, but it sounds like that doesn't bother you at all, which is great.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ammsolutions on March 02, 2013, 05:00:14 am
Vision would be nice - but for te extra cost it's not worth it for us given the volume we do. We have 15 boards per panel, and it does a panel in about 3 minutes - I spend another minute or so checking alignments before cooking it, so 15 boards / 4  minutes.

I have changed my machine to English permanently too .. YAYYYY.. The Factory are very helpful and I am greatful I got their details. No prob giving me the password to the machine so I was able to save the language perm. They have even agreed to sell me the additional spare parts kit that was not offered to me by the dealer I got mine from. We are looking to maybe upgrade the TM220 to the 240 for the additional capacity - If we do it will be direct with the factory!

Out of Curiosity - Who here has bought one of these and what do you use it for ?? - Am I the only one who has a commercial operation ??
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: arhi on March 02, 2013, 12:55:07 pm
sorry if I missed it in the long thread but from the specs of what I seen this machine is not useful for any high pitch components, so mssop, qfn and similar chips had to be positioned via hand?! in combo with a closed reflow oven where you can't "touch" those chips it's fairly useless? where am I wrong? there's no targeting system, so if a part is moved by 0.5mm inside the tray (and they will be always) it will be positioned 0.5mm off to the pcb (or 1mm or 0.1mm each part differently depending on it's position in the tape) ... I find 3k6 to be bit expensive for resistors and capacitors placement :(

is there a way to expand the machine with optics?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ammsolutions on March 02, 2013, 01:42:22 pm
Well, we use it commercially for msop, We have s couple of boards that use dfn and one using a qfn
Our board failure rate is about 2% . Sometimes real life use is the best gauge of a machines usefulness. In our case, this thing has paid for itself a 100 times over! I'm happy with it. :)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tayken on March 02, 2013, 02:52:24 pm
[quote author="arhi"]sorry if I missed it in the long thread but from the specs of what I seen this machine is not useful for any high pitch components, so mssop, qfn and similar chips had to be positioned via hand?! in combo with a closed reflow oven where you can't "touch" those chips it's fairly useless? where am I wrong? there's no targeting system, so if a part is moved by 0.5mm inside the tray (and they will be always) it will be positioned 0.5mm off to the pcb (or 1mm or 0.1mm each part differently depending on it's position in the tape) ...?[/quote]
I've seen Switch Science's PnP this week. Although it has a vision system, they laser cut some trays for ICs and other fine pitch components. That can be a solution I believe.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: arhi on March 02, 2013, 02:55:14 pm
@ammsolutions, so it's positioning 0.4-0.5mm pitch good enough .. without opics .. directly from the tape .. weird :). Do you use oven or you use hot plate and "touch" parts while the reflow?

@tayken, hm repackaging parts into other containers .. dunno what I think about that

so no way to mount some vision to this one?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ammsolutions on March 02, 2013, 03:03:13 pm
We use a reflow oven, i dont need to reposition. Accuracy is fine.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tayken on March 02, 2013, 03:39:04 pm
[quote author="arhi"]@tayken, hm repackaging parts into other containers .. dunno what I think about that [/quote]
Yep, I found it weird too. Not sure (forgot to ask) but I believe they did that to use parts that come in a tube without having a tube feeder.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: arhi on March 02, 2013, 04:08:49 pm
[quote author="ammsolutions"]We use a reflow oven, i dont need to reposition. Accuracy is fine.[/quote]

good to know
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sjaak on March 02, 2013, 06:13:01 pm
[quote="arhi]@tayken, hm repackaging parts into other containers .. dunno what I think about that
[/quote]

I think tayken means, they use a placeholder to accurately place the fine pitch component into a storage. Like the one this machine has. You can see that Ian places a couple of components into them on the last vid ( http://dangerousprototypes.com/2013/02/ ... ack-setup/ (http://dangerousprototypes.com/2013/02/28/workshop-video-57-tm220a-pick-and-place-loading-reels-and-stack-setup/) )

[quote="arhi]
so no way to mount some vision to this one?[/quote]

Everything is possible :) I think it is a matter of time before someone cracks it open, reflash the processor or replace the controller board. Adding a vision system will be next :)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on March 02, 2013, 07:52:21 pm
[quote author="bearmos"] it sounds like, with the proper configuration it'll do modest boards just fine. [/quote]

I guess that it depends upon your definition of 'modest boards'.  I strongly suspect that it will handle my boards just fine - but my boards are relatively low resolution: 0603 size and larger components, chips with lead pitch 0.65mm and up, currently at 13 mil traces (and wider) and 11 mils minimum clearance.

Accuracy may indeed become a problem if / when I start dealing with smaller components and smaller / tighter traces.  But then I will have the experience that I need to choose a better machine.

Based on all that I have seen and read, I honestly think that is is a great machine for a small manufacturing operation like ours.  Do note, though, that I still plan to sub out our volume boards (500 panels per month and up) - I just think that the big people can do it better and cheaper than we can. 

But for our low-volume stuff, I think that this machine (TM240A) is going to be perfect.

I'm anxiously waiting for my machine to arrive - next few days, i hope.

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on March 02, 2013, 07:55:52 pm
[quote author="ammsolutions"] The Factory are very helpful.  They have even agreed to sell me the additional spare parts kit that was not offered to me by the dealer I got mine from. [/quote]

Just curious - what additional spare parts are you looking to purchase?  I'm looking ahead for what I might need for my machine.

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on March 05, 2013, 01:40:41 pm
I bought a TMS240A too and can't wait to receive it :)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: thiadmer on March 05, 2013, 09:40:51 pm
A bit out of curiosity and in the hope that it will be useful, I have made a plug-in for VisualPlace (http://www.compuphase.com/visualplace/ (http://www.compuphase.com/visualplace/)) to support the TM-220A. In part as well because I think that generating placement files is, in practice, a bit more involved than just using a conversion script (for example, you will likely be confronted with there being no consensus as to how diodes, tantalum capacitors and SOT packages should be the oriented in tape).

(http://http://www.compuphase.com/visualplace/tm220export_small.png)

Caveat
I do not have a TM-220A machine (yet), so I cannot test any of this. I have just looked at the generated output files and I think they look ok. See also the list "Open questions" below. Source code of the plug-in is included, so you can correct my mistakes (if any).

How to get it
Download release 1.7. The plug-in is included. There are two downloads: a self-extracting installer and a ZIP file without installer. Both have the plug-in, but the source code (for the plug-in) is only included in the installer.

Usage
There is some documentation on the plug-in (see "Help" in the plug-in). There is a manual on VisualPlace. But VisualPlace is not a little converter program to generate TM220A files. It will take more than a few mouse clicks to get a good machine file.

VisualPlace requires that you make an "assembly project" for your PCB and it wants you to give it more than just the pick-and-place file from your EDA suite. VisualPlace also wants your BOM and it want a few Gerber files. Once VisualPlace has all that it needs, it shows you an image of the layout of the PCB. You can walk through all components, verify their positions and orientations, etc.

VisualPlace may complain that the production files are misaligned. This happens when the Gerber files have a different origin than the centroid files. You can correct this in the EDA suite or in VisualPlace; see the VisualPlace manual.

If all is well, you can then export the TM-220A file. Go to "File", then "Export", and then "Centroid file". In the "Save as" dialog, choose the file format "TM-220A" and type in a filename. You will then get a dialog with the information applicable to the TM-220A. Select the parts in the stack, make adjustments to the heads, feeds and other parameters, and click OK. Help on how to fill in the dialog is in the plug-in itself.

If, after export, VisualPlace asks you whether you want to switch the project to the exported file, you have accidentally exported the file in VisualPlace's intrinsic format, instead of in TM-220A format.

Limitations

Open questions

Best of luck,
Thiadmer Riemersma
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: xinort on March 05, 2013, 10:16:44 pm
>On the PCB origin command, there are two trailing commas. These are apparently required. Is this true?

I don't think they are required but they are helpful in some CSV editors.

>Angles must -180 to 180 clockwise; zero orientation is towards stack #15 (away from the operator). Is this correct?

Yes that is correct.

>The "tape skip" parameter (7th parameter for a component row) is unclear to me. It looks like an option to move the pick-up position by the "tape feed" distance (instead of pulling the tape by that distance). The plug-in now only sets the tape skip option on stack #0 (the "tray feeder"). Is this correct?

If the skip is set to 1 the component will be skipped and won't be placed.

>If you have the same nozzle in both heads, is it ok to pick up the same part with head 1 and head 2 in sequence? This plug-in assumes that it is. For example, if you have 8 resistors of 10k on the PCB and the reel is at stack position 3, is it ok to pick up two 10k resistors from the same reel (on head 1 and head 2)?

Yes that will work. The machine isn't aware of what nozzles are installed. If the config file has consecutive components one with head 1 and the next with head 2 it will pick up both before moving to place them.

-Xinort
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: wholder on March 05, 2013, 10:57:13 pm
I'm interested in obtaining one of these machines.  Is there a concensus on the best way to order one that works in English and runs on 110V?

Wayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: xinort on March 05, 2013, 11:07:02 pm
I found out about a nice feature. Sometimes you need to stop half way through a board and it seems the machine doesn't have a way to start where it left off. However there is, you load the config file and hit the F1 key, then you enter the component number to start at and hit enter and it will start at that component.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ammsolutions on March 05, 2013, 11:44:23 pm
Thank xinort - this is an undocumented feature that we have needed ... I thought there must have been a way to do it .. and there is.. cheers
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ammsolutions on March 05, 2013, 11:52:34 pm
Hi Wayne - PM Sent ith details.

[quote author="wholder"]I'm interested in obtaining one of these machines.  Is there a concensus on the best way to order one that works in English and runs on 110V?

Wayne[/quote]
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: digistump on March 07, 2013, 12:38:56 am
Did anyone else in the group by get theirs?

My 240A just arrived - initial impressions: package beautifully, I wish all the machines I get from China came like that. Missing example PCB that was suppose to be included. Has a 220 power cord. Otherwise looks good.

Folks who have these machines - any idea how to check if it is 120 or 220?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on March 07, 2013, 12:46:09 am
[quote author="digistump"]Did anyone else in the group by get theirs? [/quote]

Not yet, darn it all.  I leave for vacation tomorrow evening and was hoping that I would get to play with it before I left.  Now I have to wait until I return before I get to play.


[quote author="digistump"] Missing example PCB that was suppose to be included. [/quote]

I asked Mia from NeoDen if it was possible for them to include a PCB with placement file with my machine.  She said "Yes".  However, that doesn't mean that they were going to include a PCB and file with everybody's machine.  I suspect that they simply didn't think of that.

However, I will make that suggestion the next time I talk to her.

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: digistump on March 07, 2013, 12:59:29 am
[quote author="DwayneR"]
I asked Mia from NeoDen if it was possible for them to include a PCB with placement file with my machine.  She said "Yes".  However, that doesn't mean that they were going to include a PCB and file with everybody's machine.  I suspect that they simply didn't think of that.
[/quote]

I specifically asked for it as well and was told "yes" - but no biggie, I'm just happy to have it. Once it hit DHL it only took 3 days.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: digistump on March 07, 2013, 03:55:45 am
[quote author="digistump"][quote author="DwayneR"]
I asked Mia from NeoDen if it was possible for them to include a PCB with placement file with my machine.  She said "Yes".  However, that doesn't mean that they were going to include a PCB and file with everybody's machine.  I suspect that they simply didn't think of that.
[/quote]

I specifically asked for it as well and was told "yes" - but no biggie, I'm just happy to have it. Once it hit DHL it only took 3 days.[/quote]

I actually found the test board attached to the outside of the crate under a bunch of tape!

Now I'm just trying to confirm whether I got the 120v version I ordered or a 220v version, given that it came with a 220v cord.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: xinort on March 07, 2013, 07:10:17 am
Mine came with a 220v cord as well but it's 110v, I just had to supply my own IEC cable.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: digistump on March 07, 2013, 07:14:33 am
[quote author="xinort"]Mine came with a 220v cord as well but it's 110v, I just had to supply my own IEC cable.[/quote]

That's exactly what they responded, and what I hoped for - thanks for confirming it!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: royco on March 07, 2013, 09:19:40 am
My 240A left HK today. Please, please be here by Friday.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: karlschrunk on March 07, 2013, 07:13:02 pm
[quote author="Sjaak"]@tayken, hm repackaging parts into other containers .. dunno what I think about that[/quote]

Actually there might be a related option for high-accuracy placement without vision if you can get the machine to place a component, then pick it back up and re-place it elsewhere.

The idea is to machine or lasercut a very precise holder for the component that fits it exactly and has beveled edges.  Then you have the pick+place pick up the component (with questionable alignment) from the feeder and place it in the precision holder.  Since the edges are beveled, it can be off by a few mm and it will still slide into place.  Once it hits the bottom of the holder it's aligned very precisely.  Then you can have the PnP grab it again and be sure it's perfectly aligned.

Of course, this requires manufacturing one of these holders for every part you might need and it doubles the placement time for the component in question, so for well-funded operations this isn't a replacement for a vision system.  But if you have only one component on your whole board that needs this sort of high-precision placement it is a lot less expensive than a full-vision machine.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on March 07, 2013, 08:19:18 pm
[quote author="karlschrunk"]
The idea is to machine or lasercut a very precise holder for the component that fits it exactly and has beveled edges.  Then you have the pick+place pick up the component (with questionable alignment) from the feeder and place it in the precision holder.  Since the edges are beveled, it can be off by a few mm and it will still slide into place.  Once it hits the bottom of the holder it's aligned very precisely.  Then you can have the PnP grab it again and be sure it's perfectly aligned.[/quote]

I saw a CNC-based machine (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=__dEMKzkLYc#!) a while back that did something similar (sort of).  It used a machined well and moved components around inside the well to different known positions, allowing them to slide on the nozzle as it made moves.  When the component came out of the well and was done with all of the moves it was properly aligned.

The well method makes it possible only need one (or a few) wells for all of the components, but the lasercut holder with beveled edges would probably be easier to program for.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: thiadmer on March 07, 2013, 09:03:04 pm
[quote author="karlschrunk"]Actually there might be a related option for high-accuracy placement without vision if you can get the machine to place a component, then pick it back up and re-place it elsewhere.
[/quote]
As a graduation project, I created an off-line programming system for the Mirae MPS 109 TW pick & place machine. This was in 1989. The MPS 109 TW lacked a vision system, but had alternative means to centre a component on the nozzle: tweezers. After picking up a component, the machine would briefly close its tweezers and thereby move the component to the centre of the nozzle (if it was off centre). In my memory, it did this both horizontally and vertically (but this probably could be programmed).

For a low cost machine, this could be an interesting technique. It will also allow the machine to keep its speed, because tweezering can be done while the head moves to the destination.

Note, though, that in 1989, the tiniest components were 0805.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: richardw on March 11, 2013, 08:23:03 pm
Has anyone seen this project before?
http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/13/0 ... edium=feed (http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/13/03/11/1731227/sxsw-imagine-a-practical-low-cost-circuit-board-assembly-system-video?utm_source=rss1.0moreanon&utm_medium=feed)
Could become an interesting contender in the low cost pick and place market... didn't see any video footage of it actually working yet so who knows how well it will perform yet.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on March 13, 2013, 10:55:12 am
Someone wrote me a PM about getting a PnP but the spam filter cleared your account. If you're still out there give me a shout ian @ this website.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: oakkar7 on March 14, 2013, 05:02:22 am
Today, I saw "Board Froge" at Makezine.
The even aim for complete system production line, open hardware, software, etc ..
http://http://blog.makezine.com/2013/03/12/sneak-peak-board-forge-pick-place/
http://http://boardforge.com/
(http://http://makezineblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/board-forge.jpg?w=620&h=465)

And also "NERP", Pi based and OpenCV,
http://http://pumpingstationone.org/2013/02/nerp-tonite-pick-n-pi/
(http://http://pumpingstationone.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/gantry-2-640.jpg)

Believed that DIY P&P revolution is coming.

Cheers,
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on March 20, 2013, 02:08:51 am
Well, my TM240A arrived on March 9th - but I had left for vacation the previous day.  So the machine sat until I returned back to work today.

Again - I can only reiterate how well packed the machine was.  Much better than I am used to seeing from Chinese suppliers.

But, to my sorrow, the machine did not work upon powering it up.  Upon powering-up, there was a delay, then I could feel some stepper steps from somewhere, then a continuous beep until power was turned back off.  A careful examination did not reveal any obvious problems, so I gritted my teeth and began to disassemble the machine.

This was harder than I had expected.  The machine is a large plate of aluminum with everything bolted to it.  That plate is then bolted into the chassis box - this box does not have an access panel on the bottom.  So the only way in is to unbolt the main aluminum plate from that chassis box.

You start by removing the plastic IC holder from the front of the machine - this is where one would place large chips like TQFP and such.  Then remove the many hex-head screws from around the perimeter of the base plate.  You also have to unbolt the holder for the "Y" flexible cable raceway to get access to the screw in that corner of the machine.  That's when you discover that the cables inside the box are quite short and you can't lift the plate up very far.

So: disconnect the AC power from the IEC power inlet.  These are fast-on connectors and easy to remove.  Be sure to note where the neutral connections are - if you get that wrong, you will destroy the switch upon applying power.

Now you can mostly lift the plate up from the rear - but not all the way vertical.  Not until you reach in and unplug the 3-conductor plug that comes from the "Y" axis home sensor onto the main circuit board (where the switches and display is).

Even then, the ribbon cable that goes to the stepper driver boards is short.  Best to disconnect that as well.

A careful examination of what was visible didn't show any obvious problems.  So: now to remove that front panel circuit board.

It turns out that there are 8 screws holding that front panel onto the chassis box.  Of course, the screws are underneath the lexan label that covers the entire control panel.  Lifted that up and removed the 8 screws.  Then I set the control panel inside the chassis box (so that I could get the last remaining cables free), and finally lifted the whole machine up and away from the chassis box.  Disconnected the serial port cable from the PCB.  Got the chassis box out of the way, set up a bar clamp to hold the machine vertical, and took a close look at the control panel PCB.

Ah-ha!  There is a round cable with many conductors that also connects to that control panel PCB - and the connector didn't look right.  It was nicely sealed in place with red goop - but it didn't look right.  So: I peeled the red goop off of the connector and pulled the cable connector off of the board.  Everything looked OK - so I carefully re-inserted the cable end back into the PCB connector.  There is a lot of pins there and it took a bit of force - but it wasn't excessive.  But now it looked proper.

So: I reconnected the other 2 cables that I had previously disconnected and applied power to the machine.

Success!  The machine went through its homing sequence exactly like shown in one of Ian's videos, then parked the head at the top-right and rear spot.

Those short cables really annoyed me, so I set out to do something about it.  That round multi-conductor cable that hadn't been seated properly goes to the placement head.  There was a lot of slack in that cable that had been consumed by routing it all over the place on the bottom of that big aluminum plate.  I cut its cable ties and removed it from the nylon cable clamps, then did a straight-line run to the control panel PCB.  I secured it in place in the two nylon cable clamps that were close-by.  That gave an extra foot of length.

Made a new ribbon cable with an extra foot of length between the control PCB and the lower stepper-motor driver PCB.  That left only the homing sensor for the "Y" axis.

Turns out that this is a standard JST 3-pin connector with 0.1" (2.54mm) lead pitch.  I don't have any of those, but I do have lots of 0.1" header pins.  I marked the PCB with the wire colors, then pulled the plastic housing off of the pins sticking up from the PCB.  Stuck my 3-pin header onto that plastic housing and checked - it fits the sensor cable perfectly.  Soldered 3 colored wires (red, blue, black) onto the free end of the header and insulated the connections with heat-shrink.  Removed the original connector pins from the PCB and soldered the wires into where the connector used to be.  This gave me an extra foot or so of slack on that cable.  And - its easily dis-connectible when needed.

So: now I was ready to properly test the machine's manual functions.  Set the machine down on the bench with the control panel in front.  Powered the machine up - everything looks good.  Got into the 'Manual" screen and tried the various functions.  Oops - no vacuum on nozzle #1.  Great vacuum on nozzle #2 (and the #2 LED on the head goes OUT when the vacuum is good) and the blow function for both nozzles was also good.  But no vacuum on nozzle #1.

Stood the machine vertical again and powered it up.  Note - you have to have something under the lower edge of the machine so that the placement head can reach the "Y" home sensor.  The stepper has enough torque to stretch the belt and start skipping teeth if the placement head is blocked from moving.  A chunk of 2 x 4 worked perfectly.

Anyway, both vacuum motors were warm to the touch - but the #1 motor was somewhat hotter than #2.  Also - I could feel vibration from motor #2 but not motor #1.  Grabbed a Fluke meter - 9.8 Vdc present at motor #2, 9.4 Vdc present at motor #1.  There are 3 in-line tubing connectors a few inches away from both vacuum motors and the blow pump - these make the transition from the larger tubing that goes to the 3 pumps to the small tubing that goes to the placement head.  Disconnected the hose for vacuum #1 - no suction from the pump.

All of this made me think that the pump motor was jammed.  Dismounted vacuum pump #1 - there are two heads (connected in series) and an access cover over the crankshaft.  Pulled that cover and rotated the crankshaft.  It moved - but there were 2 distinct spots that felt very 'gritty' - something was rubbing on something else.  Rotated it a bunch of times over those 'gritty' spots and it got less and less.  It finally got to the point where I thought it might work.

Put power back on the machine - Yep - pump is now working.  But I don't expect it to be reliable, so I've sent a message to NeoDen asking for a replacement vacuum pump.

Laid the machine down flat again - all manual functions appear to be good.

The machine is still apart.  I took some pictures today and plan to take more tomorrow.  I'm happy to post those but: what resolution should I down-scale them to?  The pictures right out of the camera are WAY too huge and IrfanView makes rescaling easy.  But I'm not sure how far down I should take them.  Opinions greatly appreciated.

I'll start another message talking about what I see inside the machine.

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on March 20, 2013, 04:07:44 am
Thanks a lot for sharing your experience DwayneR!  I'm glad to hear you got everything working - it's funny how you "just knew" the cable seating didn't look quite right :)  I've been lucky enough to have that fix a few items as well.

[quote author="DwayneR"]The machine is still apart. I took some pictures today and plan to take more tomorrow. I'm happy to post those but: what resolution should I down-scale them to? The pictures right out of the camera are WAY too huge and IrfanView makes rescaling easy. But I'm not sure how far down I should take them. Opinions greatly appreciated.[/quote]
If you're uploading them here, I'd say around 1024x would be sufficient.  Otherwise, something a little larger might be useful (depending on how useful/clear interesting details are).
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: doub on March 20, 2013, 05:04:51 am
HD video resolutions are a good reference. That would be 1280x720 or 1920x1080 (as far as I'm concerned the larger the better if your host is fast, that way you can zoom on interesting parts).
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sjaak on March 20, 2013, 05:45:40 am
For most pictures here i would say 1024 wide is enough. But please host the originals somewhere for more detail. Especially the uC board.

Good to hear you could fix the problems.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: royco on March 20, 2013, 04:18:53 pm
I have not powered up mine yet and yes it is packed really good. Hopefully I dont get the same issues you experienced but nice to hear that you got it up and running.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on March 20, 2013, 07:05:52 pm
I got my machine on monday well packed in perfect condition.
After powering it up I run the demo project.
Everything worked fine I need to fine adjust for 0402 parts.
 I am working on excel application to build the pick and place files.
I think we need a procedure for fine adjusting the feeder pickup position. If the parts are not picked up in center the placement error varies through placement angle of component.
Here are some placement examples done on various speed and offsets
http://https://dl.dropbox.com/u/37962674/DSCN1084.JPG
http://https://dl.dropbox.com/u/37962674/DSCN1085.JPG
http://https://dl.dropbox.com/u/37962674/DSCN1087.JPG
http://https://dl.dropbox.com/u/37962674/DSCN1089.JPG
http://https://dl.dropbox.com/u/37962674/DSCN1091.JPG
http://https://dl.dropbox.com/u/37962674/DSCN1088.MOV
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on March 20, 2013, 07:39:30 pm
[quote author="supertronic"]
Everything worked fine I need to fine adjust for 0402 parts.[/quote]

Could you post a list of the feeder offset values that you are using for the various sizes of components that you are working with?

Thanks!

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on March 20, 2013, 11:21:40 pm
Hi dwayne,

I use the default values given in the SMTDemo1.csv file.
I try to develop a calibration procedure to check the alignment of every stack position.
On my machine using 0402 parts in the first stack needs X=0 Y=0 as correction value!
Regards
Michael
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: karlschrunk on March 21, 2013, 02:21:46 am
Can anybody comment on the suitability of this machine for 0.5mm-pitch QFPs?

We're about to package an IC and would like to use one of these to stuff the prototype boards (no more than 10-20/day).  The IC packaging house offers 0.65mm-pitch, 0.5mm-pitch, and 0.4mm-pitch.  However, most of the packages are only available in 0.5mm+0.4mm pitch, and a few are 0.4mm-only, so going with 0.65mm-pitch would really limit our options on other axes (pin count, size, thermals).

They have one package available in 0.8mm pitch, but I'd really like to avoid that; I think they're trying to phase it out and I don't want to get stuck with a dead-end package.

Since we have control of the wirebonding and don't need anywhere close to the number of pins on these packages we're considering leaving odd-numbered pins unconnected.  This way a bridge connection between two adjacent pins (but not three) wouldn't cause problems.

Thanks for any insight...
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: az1324 on March 23, 2013, 01:57:42 am
Waiting to see some nice teardown pics of these machines and hoping the pickup head assembly will be for sale separately for DIY.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on March 24, 2013, 03:24:29 am
I've got some pictures of the machine and the placement head.  I will take some better (more detailed) pictures next week but these should give you an idea of what's inside.

I've been up to my A** in alligators, so I haven't had a chance to down-sample the pictures yet.  But you can go to one of my cloud-storage sites and view them at your leisure.  These are hosted on cubby.com - I have many cloud storage solutions to choose from but I have the most space on cubby.

Go to http://https://www.cubby.com/pl/Cubby/_84be51e9ba934374b6f13af5e66cb880  The pictures are in the folder named "Canon".

My next message has some notes on what I saw inside the machine - these notes are rough and I will be editing them next week.  But it gives you a bit in insight as to what the pictures show.

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on March 24, 2013, 03:27:17 am
Here are my rough notes from taking apart my TM240A.  These will change later when I get around to editing them.

TM240A internal details

First impressions: build quality is excellent.  This machine appears to have been designed by someone who cares more about quality and long life rather than lowest possible cost.

There is actually not all that much stuff under the base-plate of this unit.  With the main base-plate standing vertical, one can see the blow pump (black) and the two vacuum pumps (blue) near the top of the unit.  Below that is the power supply (standard, off-the-shelf Meanwell 24V 8.8A 200W) and the two stepper driver boards.  The brains in this unit is the control panel - this contains the entire user-interface, full-size SD card socket, processor.  The touch-screen display is connected to this board by a soldered flat film flex.

Power: the Meanwell power supply has a full-range input of 100 - 240 Vac 50/60 Hz.  The output of the 24V supply feeds the two stepper driver cards.  The only other AC-powered component is the blow pump - this has a 220V sticker on the side even though my TM240A was delivered set up for operation at 120 Vac.  Regardless, the blow pump does blow, so I'm not concerned.

There are two stepper driver cards.  However, only one is fully stuffed, the other has only one of six stepper-driver stages populated.  The stepper motors are bipolar and are connected to the driver board with plugable 4-pin screw connectors.  A single 20-conductor ribbon cable connects both stepper driver cards to the main control panel.  Because both driver cards are identical, that means that the single stepper channel on the second card gets the exact same step and direction commands as the matching channel on the first (fully-populated) card.  NeoDen does this because they have two identical steppers driving a single shaft for the SMD tape-cover film take-up reels.  More about that later.

Looking at the back-side of the fully populated stepper-driver card, one can see six identical Alegro A???? PLCC dual full-bridge driver chips.  These chips are heat-sunk to that large, thick aluminum base plate with a layer of thermally-conductive tape.  There is also a 5V regulator for logic stuff and another 10V regulator for one vacuum pump.  In other words, each of the two vacuum pumps connects to one of the stepper driver cards.

Each of the stepper driver cards has a 20-pin ribbon connector.  Two pairs of pins are ground, one pair of pins are +5V, one pair of pins are +24V.  The remaining six pairs of pins are step and direction command inputs for the driver chips.  24V & 5V rails go to the main control board - the 24V rail feeds the placement head.



Placement head

The TM240A placement head is a marvel of engineering.  There is some real magic happening here.

Each of the two nozzle assemblies has a tiny stepper used to rotate the held component, with a flexible hose that goes back to the valve block.  Each of the heads moves independantly and are driven by a single stepper situated between them.  As seen in the pictures, this stepper shaft is connected to a bar with rollers on each end.  Quiescent state is with the bar sitting horizontal and both nozzles at the top of their travel.  If the bar rotates one way, one nozzle goes down but the other remains at the top.  If the bar rotates the other way, the other nozzle goes down.

The valve block is at the rear of the placement head.  This block contains 4 indepndent valves and 5 ports.  The block also contains the two vacuum sensors that let the machine know that picking up a part was successful.

Two valves are for each nozzle: suck and blow.  The two blow valves are combined into a single input port since only one nozzle can place its component at any one time.  The vacuum ports are independent because both nozzles can hold components at any one time.

More to come later.

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on March 25, 2013, 12:48:15 pm
Thanks for the detailed explanation dwayne!  I always enjoy seeing the innerworkings of something like this
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: TAUTIC on March 26, 2013, 07:52:15 pm
Is anyone actively purchasing these?  I'm looking at a few options but would like to go with a trusted source. Would appreciate any guidance.


Thanks!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on March 26, 2013, 09:06:21 pm
[quote author="TAUTIC"]Is anyone actively purchasing these?  I'm looking at a few options but would like to go with a trusted source. Would appreciate any guidance.[/quote]

I believe that Ian is now set up as a dealer but he is currently in China.  Regardless, I'm pretty sure that he can take your order, arrange for you to send payment directly to NeoDen via wire transfer, then have the unit drop-shipped directly to you.

I'm one of the 6 or so people who jumped in on the group-buy that Ian arranged earlier and I am *very* happy with my purchase so far.

For me, Ian *is* a trusted source and I have absolutely NO problem sending money where he tells me to send it because I am convinced that he is NOT a scam artist.  In other words, I feel that he has a massively-positive reputation, based on his past history.

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: TAUTIC on March 26, 2013, 09:18:12 pm
[quote author="DwayneR"]
For me, Ian *is* a trusted source and I have absolutely NO problem sending money where he tells me to send it because I am convinced that he is NOT a scam artist.  In other words, I feel that he has a massively-positive reputation, based on his past history.
[/quote]

Oh absolutely, i'm on board if Ian is pointing where to send the money. I have a few last minute decisions to make and can see myself choosing soon. 

Glad to hear you're happy with the purchase as well, the few videos i've seen seem very promising. Thank you for confirming and for the quick reply.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: hardcore on March 27, 2013, 07:57:06 am
Be VERY careful about this company, Whilst I to trust Ian
I recently tried to do business with this company, for what I considered to be a reasonable quantity of machines.

They are by far the  worst company I have had to deal with, they are off hand even to the point of being rude and that is in Chinese via a Chinese contact.
Both the Shenzhen 'agent' and the head office in Hang Zhou seemed to have a similar attitude, really really impolite even stating that "They don't do business in US$".

The factory representative basically said if I did not go in person and discuss business then they were not interested.

So I would guess if that is the attitude when you try to give them business, then service requests or support are going to be non-existent.

so I'm going to wait until the market gains a few more players, then find a long term partner to do business with.....
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: patc on March 27, 2013, 10:04:55 am
impressive.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Handi on March 27, 2013, 10:49:02 am
Hello

I ordered the TM220A on Aliexpress two weeks ago and is having a good experience with the machine. The machine arrived in few days in France without problem. I received the machine configured in english with the english manual and PCB test card and program. Thanks Ian for your videos and tutorial. I'm using the export script for eagle and it seems to work perfectly. It would be really awesome if we could charge our own stack configuration with a config file.

I have three questions about the machine :
I'm not able to find how to configure the origin of the PCB using the joystick. Do we have to do it just with measuring ? Can't we use laser?

When I edit a file with the menu Edit, i change a value somewhere (like skip 0 -> 1 ) for a component, press enter and the modification is not saved ... Why ?

Finally, how do we do to use the 2 pick head at the same time ? My test program only use one type of component with one head but it just uses only one pick head ...


Apart from this, my only problem is that my PCB have components where the machine have the grip to hold the pcb, so I will not be able to 100% pnp my board ... I will have to add panelization border to my card next time !

Anyway, the precision seems awesome, and this is good investment for a professional hardware engineer like me who create twice a month 20 proto of a different PCB.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Zeta on March 27, 2013, 05:24:11 pm
[quote author="hardcore"]
They are by far the  worst company I have had to deal with, they are off hand even to the point of being rude and that is in Chinese via a Chinese contact.
Both the Shenzhen 'agent' and the head office in Hang Zhou seemed to have a similar attitude, really really impolite even stating that "They don't do business in US$".
[/quote]
Most probably they are a company aiming to serve the local market. Therefore, they only accept local currency and are in no way interested in (and most probably are not prepared to deal with) all the problems money exchange brings. They have probably thought you were impolite for demanding them take US$ too :P

[quote author="hardcore"]
The factory representative basically said if I did not go in person and discuss business then they were not interested.
[/quote]
Shocking :O
Maybe they though the cuantities where actually small for them. Or They probably thought you were some kind of a scammer or something.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: teletypeguy on March 27, 2013, 06:05:30 pm
and a 'nuther PnP -- a plywood-framed $3700 kit, from Texas I think (kinda slow, but large pcb area and lots of reels): 
(unsure of accuracy)

http://buildyourcnc.com/PickandPlaceMac ... dFrog.aspx (http://buildyourcnc.com/PickandPlaceMachineTheredFrog.aspx)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: hardcore on March 28, 2013, 12:44:01 am
The issue is
 I can do business both in USD OR RMB all perfectly legally since my banking facilities allow both AND I have facilities to handle 'proper' shipping from China
I know some of my ex-staff live in the province of the 'factory', I'm going to see if one of them is willing to go check it out, because  I get the feeling something is not right, since the staff I allocated to look at this case has over 15 Years of experience dealing with difficult China factories and she was upset by the attitude.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: matseng on March 28, 2013, 03:13:24 am
[quote author="teletypeguy"]and a 'nuther PnP -- a plywood-framed $3700 kit, from Texas I think (kinda slow, but large pcb area and lots of reels):  (unsure of accuracy) http://buildyourcnc.com/PickandPlaceMac ... dFrog.aspx (http://buildyourcnc.com/PickandPlaceMachineTheredFrog.aspx)[/quote]
Hmm...  I think I prefer a prebuild metal Chinese PnP that does 6000 parts per hour over a PnP kit made out of wood from an US company that does about 400 parts per hour for the same price.

It probably is nice to have 28 reels instead of only 15, but at at that speed I can manually place 0805/0603 discretes faster.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: jipilabont on March 28, 2013, 06:33:38 pm
Loved so much the machine trough your clip that i bought one directly in china the reflow oven too. Thanks for alll the info you gave us.
Should receive in Quebec next month. Just hoping..
Jean Pierre LaBonte
JPAL Laser
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on March 30, 2013, 09:00:53 pm
I had previously mentioned that my TM240A had a defective vacuum pump when I received the unit.  Although I got the pump working, I suspected that it would not be reliable and asked NeoDen for a replacement.  I also mentioned that I had not received the demo PCB and Mia said that they would send one along with the pump.

The package with the replacement pump and demo PCB arrived Thursday.  I'm not sure what ship method they used but the package arrived at least 6 business days earlier than I expected.

I didn't even bother installing the new pump (the original is still working), but instead loaded up the first 3 reel positions with tapes containing 0402, 0603, 0805 components.  As it turns out, I should have also loaded up a reel of 1206 components - but I'll get to that later.

Anyway, inserted the SD card and loaded the SMTDemo.csv file from the card.  Hit the 'Step' button - and immediately noticed major problems.  The tape would not feed because the pin was centered at the edge of the tape instead of over the tow of feed holes and the nozzle was attempting to pick the part up from the area between the actual component and the feed holes.  Oops, sez me - I must have somehow messed up the calibration.  So: I fired off an email message to Mia at NeoDen with an extremely detailed description of what I was seeing.  Because I knew that I wouldn't receive a response from NeoDen until the next day, I proceeded to mess with the various manual setup parameters as well as the calibration settings for the machine.

I was able to get the nozzle to be centered over the component but nothing that I tried was able to move the needle to be centered over the feed holes.  So I gave up, restored the machine to its original settings, and waited for NeoDen to get back to me.

I received a message from Mia's private email address - he said that their engineer thought that I might have messed up something mechanical while I had the machine apart.  The engineer recorded a video (in Chinese) that showed very clearly what I needed to look out for and showed how to fix the problem if in fact the problem was what they thought.

Turns out they nailed the problem exactly.  If you recall, I mentioned that if you power the machine up while the main baseplate is standing vertical and sitting on your bench surface, it was necessary to lift the bottom edge of the baseplate off the work bench with a piece of 2 x 4 lumber or something similar.  I also mentioned that the stepper motor had enough torque to cause the belt to stretch and skip teeth if you didn't do this.

I know this, of course, because that is exactly what happened to me the first time that I powered the machine up while it was standing vertically on my bench.  But when the belt skipped teeth, the pickup head was at the homing position of bottom-left on the baseplate.  As a result, the entire gantry became 'racked' - the right-hand belt skipped more teeth than the left hand belt.  Of course, I didn't realize this had happened.

The fix was simple: removed power from the machine, then manually moved the gantry to the front of the machine and observed that there was a gap of about 2mm on the left side between the gantry and the front stop while the right side of the gantry was right tight against its stop.  Backed the gantry up a little bit, slid a screwdriver shaft between the right-hand stop and the gantry, then forced the left belt to skip first one tooth, then one more.  Now the left side of the gantry was right tight up against the front stop while the right side had a tiny gap.  The video that Mia sent was quite clear that there must be NO gap on the left side, so that is how I left it.

Powered the machine back up, loaded the file, then used the 'Step' button to grab the first component.  Now the tape feed worked correctly and the nozzle is EXACTLY centered on the 0402 component pocket on the tape.  Note that I wanted to use the 0402 tape for checking the centering - the pocket is very small and its easy to verify how well centered the nozzle is.

Ran the SMTDemo file - the machine proceeded to pick up parts from all 3 tapes and place them on the board.  I can't yet tell how accurate the placement is - the parts bounce all over the place because there is nothing to keep in place (no paste or anything).  I'll try again on Monday after spraying the PCB with something sticky to hold the parts.

I mentioned that I should have also loaded a reel of 1206 components.  The SMTDemo.csv file has a '1' in the 'Skip' field for all of the larger components (diodes, QFN32 parts, etc) but does allow placing of all of the small components.  One thing to note: the CSV file mentions that the larger parts are 1210 instead of 1206 but the offset values used in the stack setup are in fact for 1206 components.  So: I think that the '1210' in the components list is a mistake and that you should load a reel of 1206 components in stack #4, not 1210.

Anyway, my machine appears to be usable at this point.  I will know better on Monday - I have up to 200 panels each of two different panels of SMD boards (6 boards in each panel) ready to run - including having paste stencils.  I just need to wait until the lady who knows where all the parts are to dig them out for me - then I'll start playing <grin>.

Finally, I wanted to mention that I saved a copy of the video that Mia sent to me in the Cubby cloud storage site that I mentioned earlier.  The file name is FixRackingProblem.avi (32MB) and you can get it from http://https://www.cubby.com/pl/Cubby/_84be51e9ba934374b6f13af5e66cb880.  I am also uploading more pictures into the 'Canon' folder on that same site - these pictures are the under-side of the main control PCB and more pictures of the under-side of the Stepper Driver PCB (showing the LM2576 Simple Switcher +5V & +10V rails).

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on March 30, 2013, 09:10:55 pm
I wanted to mention something pretty cool that I noticed while I was running the SMTDemo file: there are a couple of places within the file where the pickup head is grabbing two components from the same stack.  That is: both nozzles are in use and grabbing from the same tape.

The tape feed moves the tape TWO positions in this particular case!  Because the machine knows that both nozzles are grabbing from the same tape, it moves the tape by 2 positions, then loads both nozzles sequentially.  This saves time - the normal method would be to move the tape by one position, grab the component, move the same tape another position, then grab the second component.

Very, very cool!

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sjaak on March 31, 2013, 12:22:35 pm
great review (i know it still WIP..)

I saw one today in action in the Seg buy building at ground level. Dunno if it was a Neoden outlet, will check out tomorrow. THe macine was very fast and looks acurate (it ran a different program then the pcb; the head moved further then the pcb). I found  the machine was bigger then expected.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on April 01, 2013, 09:49:52 pm
I have some problems in placement accuracy using XS nozzle if the distance between pick and place is longer.
On multi board placement configuration. (machine speed is 5 no vibrations!)
There is no problem using S nozzle all parts taken from head 2 using S nozzle are in place.
I already changed the XS nozzle on head 1 no improvement!

Any suggestions?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on April 02, 2013, 04:48:53 am
[quote author="supertronic"]I have some problems in placement accuracy using XS nozzle if the distance between pick and place is longer.
On multi board placement configuration.[/quote]

I'd be checking several things.  First: power-down the machine and check to see that the gantry hits both front stops at the same time.  In other words, no gap on either the left or right sides of the gantry and the front supports.

Check to see if the nozzle is exactly centered in the component tape.  To do this, go to the main screen that shows the files on the SD card.  But instead of hitting 'Load", hit "Edit" instead.  Cursor down to the line that shows the nozzle offset for the stack that you are checking out.  Note that the X and Y parameters will show the settings for that stack. 

Then tap the top-right parameter box (marked 'Stack' and highlight the right-hand digit only.  Use the "UP" button on the keypad to select the proper stack number.  Then press the "Joystick" icon in the middle of the touch-screen.  The head will move to that stack and drop the nozzle.  Ensure that it is exactly centered in the component hole in the tape.

To change the offset, decide whether you are adjusting either the X or Y setting.  Highlight the extreme right-hand digit in whichever parameter you are going to change.  Then use the Up and Down buttons on the keypad to change the entry.  After making a change to one of the parameters, hit the Joystick icon in the middle of the touch-screen again.  That will move the head to the new location.  Note that the head will move only when the Joystick icon is tapped.

Keep adjusting the offset until it is correct.  Then press the "Enter" button to save your changes to the SD card.

Other things to look out for:

You mention "multi-board" placement.  Is the accuracy good on the first board?  If so, I would carefully measure the exact distance between the individual boards in the panel and enter those values into the multi-board header in the file (header ID #3).

More information from you might allow us to make more suggestions.

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on April 02, 2013, 08:12:53 am
Hi dwayne,

Thank you for the fast reply,

It's not a feeder offset problem the first board is ok the offsets for the next boards are right because head 2 puts the component at the right place. The first head using XS nozzle has the problem. If the component is traveling over long distances the accuracy is poor.

I found one problem if both heads are in action he first component picked sometimes misaligned.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on April 03, 2013, 01:27:13 am
[quote author="supertronic"]
It's not a feeder offset problem the first board is ok the offsets for the next boards are right because head 2 puts the component at the right place. The first head using XS nozzle has the problem. If the component is traveling over long distances the accuracy is poor.[/quote]

Yeah - the loss in accuracy over large distance is why I suggested looking at how square the gantry is with respect to the front stops.  If there is a gap on one side or the other, the gantry is not square and you will get an error that gets larger when the distances become large.

Other than that, I would suggest contacting NeoDen with an extremely detailed message about what you are seeing and what you have tried to do so far.  I have been dealing with someone named "Mia" who has been very helpful to me.

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on April 03, 2013, 09:21:04 pm
Hi dwayne,

the gap between left and right side is 0.6mm can't adjust the gap because its not a skipped saw tooth problem the gap is smaller.
After some measurements I think this is not the main problem because if the error occurs the components are 0.5mm misaligned on x axis only for head 1!!! Head 2 using S nozzle has no problem at the same time on the board.
There is a problem in the feeder area.
Did the machine adjust the zero point  of each axis after step loss?
Dwayne could you explain how to adjust the roller clutch in which direction needs the screw be turned to make the clutch stronger?
I did yesterday 200 boards and saw in 30% of the boards placement problems on 70% the tolerances are ok!

Did you know how to adjust the board reference using laser pointer?
In edit mode I cant drive to board reference point using mid button.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: teletypeguy on April 07, 2013, 07:39:27 am
Hi folks:

I am seriously considering getting this machine (probably the 240; maybe the 220), and have been keenly following this discussion.  It has been interesting to see the problems/solutions that you brave early-adopters have run into, and I thank you for all the great insight you have given to us guys lurking in the wings. 

I realize that not all of the problems/issues have been overcome, but would you folks who have and use the machine recommend it (for r&d just-a-few-off or low-vol-dozens-a-day use) ?

And a couple of other questions, if I may:

- can a 24mm reel be used (with offsets to accommodate it)?  There are quite a few chips on 24mm reels.

- how are the wells at the front used for loading chips?  Can you program different parts in different wells (eg:  can I have a TQFP-64 in wells 1-5, and an SSOP-28 in wells 6-x?)  Do you keep adding chips to the wells as the machine consumes them?  Do you just push them into one corner and hope for the best alignment? 

- has anyone run into issues with part height?  Yeah, most res/cap/ic stuff is a similar height, but what about tall electrolytic caps (of varying heights)?  Anyone try smt headers?

thanks,

gil
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on April 07, 2013, 12:53:21 pm
Hi Gil,

first the machine is use full it takes some time to tune some parameters for better results.

- can a 24mm reel be used (with offsets to accommodate it)? There are quite a few chips on 24mm reels.
The machine supports only 16mm reels max but if you modify the feeder block it may work.
In the standard feeder block the component height is restricted only 3mm is possible.

- how are the wells at the front used for loading chips? Can you program different parts in different wells (eg: can I have a TQFP-64 in wells 1-5, and an SSOP-28 in wells 6-x?) Do you keep adding chips to the wells as the machine consumes them? Do you just push them into one corner and hope for the best alignment?

My solution is not ready yet but i want to make laser stencils for different component types to center them in the pickup area.
To get best result don't rotate part picked up.

- has anyone run into issues with part height? Yeah, most res/cap/ic stuff is a similar height, but what about tall electrolytic caps (of varying heights)? Anyone try smt headers?
parts > 3mm are not allowed!!!

Regards
Michael
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DwayneR on April 08, 2013, 01:17:03 am
Supertronic answered most of your questions - I'll add in just a little more detail.

[quote author="teletypeguy"] can a 24mm reel be used (with offsets to accommodate it)?  [/quote]
Nope - the feed mechanism suits only the sizes that it has been designed for.  I have the 240A machine - it has 21- 8mm, 4- 12mm, 2- 16mm feeders in addition to the large chip tray at the front.  I think that the only way that you can use those large chips is to remove them from the carrier tape and place the chips into one corner of each pocket of the front tray.

[quote author="teletypeguy"] how are the wells at the front used for loading chips?  Can you program different parts in different wells
(eg:  can I have a TQFP-64 in wells 1-5, and an SSOP-28 in wells 6-x?)[/quote]
Nope to using different chips with different offsets in the front tray.  There is only a single offset entry for the entire tray.  That said - NeoDen might consider allowing different offsets for each individual pocket in the front tray *IF* enough people ask for that feature.

[quote author="teletypeguy"] Do you keep adding chips to the wells as the machine consumes them?  Do you just push them into one corner and hope for the best alignment?  [/quote]
You choose one corner of each pocket (I use push the chip towards the rear-left of the machine) and calibrate with your chosen position.  Accuracy is very good.  I do not yet know if the machine will go back to the first pocket after it has grabbed chips from all of the pockets - I haven't needed to find out yet.

[quote author="teletypeguy"] has anyone run into issues with part height?  Yeah, most res/cap/ic stuff is a similar height, but what about tall electrolytic caps (of varying heights)?  Anyone try smt headers?[/quote]
As Supertronic mentioned, max part height is 3mm.  In addition, components that do not have a smooth, flat top surface won't work because the suction won't hold.  Most electrolytic caps have ridges in the top; even if the machine could handle the height, the suction tips wouldn't hold onto the cap.  Same goes for SMT headers - the machine simply isn't set up to handle such parts.

For me - headers simply aren't a problem because I use only through-hole headers.  Most of the work I do is for Industrial applications and the people are too rough for surface-mounted connectors to survive.

My workflow is to mount all of the SMD parts onto the board and reflow.  Then populate all of the through-hole parts (large connectors, headers, power relays, large capacitors, power resistors, etc) and run through the wave-solder machine.  Then wash, dry, test.

dwayne
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: andym on April 10, 2013, 04:25:10 pm
I'm very interested in getting one of these.  Has anyone had luck ordering these direct?  The fees I see for Taobao agents are pretty high.  They've shown up on AliExpress too, but start around $4,100 before shipping.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Handi on April 11, 2013, 10:26:36 pm
Hello

I did buy mine without any problem on aliexpress. Fast shipping to france and perfect packaging.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on April 12, 2013, 12:13:36 am
I ordered my TM240A at neoden directly without any problems.
You need to pay in advance and 14 days after payment DHL delivered the tool.
Think about custom fees you need to add to your costs.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on April 18, 2013, 10:46:06 pm
Hi,
I want to post some tips for better results.
1. Place two diagonal  marks for alignment on the pcb and mark this position to skip placement.
    On PCB change load the job in edit mode and scroll to the first mark in the list, switch to edit and move to position.
    The laser cross shows the right position push the board to fit now step to the second mark and check / align this position.
    Now you need to exit edit mode and load the job file in run mode.

2. If the component is in a plastic tape define the component height + 0.05mm so pick process won't press the
    component and tape down so there is no misalignment on pickup.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: az1324 on April 21, 2013, 04:26:21 pm
Any success with TQFP 64/128?  TSOP?  QFN?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: andym on May 03, 2013, 01:04:42 am
I ordered my machine off AliExpress, and after some delays got it this Tuesday.  Overall, I'm very impressed.  The build quality is extremely high, and as others have noted, the shipping crate was very well made and packed.

I wanted to make a few notes that might help someone else.  First off, my 16mm reels are too large in diameter (13" I believe).  I found a possible solution here:

http://http://www.matr.com/store/pc/7-Plastic-Reels-c56.htm

I'm going to re-reel smaller quantities onto the 7" reels.  Not ideal, but it'll work.

Second, the most frustrating thing for me was Stack 0 (the front tray) only having one assignable part.  It'd be very nice if you could setup multiple parts, or groups - for example, location 1 and 2 is part A, 3 and 4 part B, etc. 

To get around this, I came up with a little trick.  First, some numbers that are important in this explanation:


In my example, my boards are 3-up on the panel.  The first 3 tray locations contain an LQFP48 that is in slots 1, 2, and 3 of the tray (Stack 0).  This part is in my main board CSV and gets populated on the primary run.

I created two more CSVs each specifically for the other tray parts.  The trick is to set the X-axis offset to match the first slots.  I came up with an average distance between slot centers of 18.015mm.  So, for example, in my second CSV, I have a TQFP64 in slots 4, 5, and 6 which including the leads is 12mm square.  So my offset for Stack 0 is 54.045mm plus the adjustment for my part.  I put the part in the upper left corner of the tray, so my X offset is calculated as (18.015mm * 3) - (8.065mm - 6mm) = 51.98mm.  My Y offset is (8.12mm - 6mm) = 2.12mm.  It looks like this in the CSV:

Code: [Select]
%,Stack,Offset,Stack,X,Y,
65535,1,0,51.98,2.12,Tray,

Lastly, you need to adjust the feed rate for Stack 0 so it correctly advances to the next slot:

Code: [Select]
%,Feeding,Set,Stack,Feed Rate,
65535,2,0,18.01,

The last important note is that rotation seems to be ever so slightly off on parts from the tray.  To fix this, I just set the rotation angle to 0 and rotate the parts as I place them in the tray by hand.  So far this seems to be working well.

All in all, for the price, this is a fantastic machine.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: chomw on May 08, 2013, 12:32:49 am
Hi guys!

Got my TM240A today. Out of the box had a skipped tooth on the right side - feeding needle was off. Fixed it per DwayneR video, turned out the belts are not that tight and it is possible to use a finger in place of a tool :-) to stop one side of a gantry.

Continue playing - I got a Chinese manual so the main source of information is this thread.

Oleg.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: chomw on May 12, 2013, 07:20:21 pm
Here's the short article I wrote after using the machine for a couple of days -> http://http://www.circuitsathome.com/production/neoden-tm240a-pick-and-place-machine-first-impressions
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: chomw on May 15, 2013, 09:17:45 am
Learned cool trick today. It is possible ti change machine speed from within the job file, the command is 0 and can be inserted anywhere within the parts placement configuration, like that:

0,10,0,0,0,0,0,

means switch to 100% speed

0,1,0,0,0,0,0,

means switch to 10%

etc.

range from 1 to 15 corresponding to 10%-150%

Handy if the part is too heavy for the head. Since you can only have 2 different heads installed, sometimes you need to pick a part with a smaller head. For example, I have a job with XS and XL heads installed and one of the part is 1206 tantalum cap - too small for XL and marginal for XS. The machine picks OK but shifts when placed at 100% speed. However, if I throttle down to 30 the cap gets placed quite well.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: rwijbenga on May 27, 2013, 10:02:39 am
Also looking into buying this machine.

Can you also load just a short piece of strip not on a reel?

So a small amount of parts.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: chomw on May 28, 2013, 05:39:30 am
Short strip is going to be tricky - you need a certain length of a cover tape to feed back to cover tape pickup mechanism.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on May 30, 2013, 01:38:58 pm
Has anyone problems with the clutches of the tape rollers?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: mplafleur on May 31, 2013, 05:14:14 pm
I believe a strip will work. I think I saw a demo that showed someone with a parts in strips in place of reels.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: mplafleur on June 11, 2013, 05:40:05 pm
How about parts in trays or in tubes? Will they all have to be hand placed, or has anyone worked out a solution?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: andym on July 04, 2013, 05:48:31 pm
Parts from tubes and trays currently need to be placed in the front tray (slot 0) and placed from there.  I use a corner as a reference point and set offsets appropriately.  I have two QFP parts I place on my panel of three boards, and I have a separate file for each.  In the second file, I set the X offset for slot 0 to be 54mm, so it starts from slot 0 position 4.  Prior to populating the board, I place 3 of one parts in slot position 1, 2, and 3, and 3 of the other in 4, 5, and 6.  I've played with cutting inserts that center specific parts with varying levels of success, but continue to use the corner method for now.

I do still have issues with QFP parts placing correctly.  The largest problem seems to be a slight rotation.  Slowing down to < 50% speed seems to help, but it's still not as consistent as I'd like.  The biggest improvement came by adding a "fidicual" file for my board.  Prior to starting any other operations, I open that in "Edit" mode and use the laser crosshair at four locations to make sure the board is as aligned as it can be (two fidicual markers at opposite corners, and two QFP pin pads).

The biggest feature I'd love to see is the ability to manually pick up a part, move it, rotate it, and drop it.  My QFP packages are big enough this would be easy to do - perhaps even mounting a USB microscope on the head somehow to see pin alignment and adjust manually as needed.

Overall, I'm still quite happy with this machine despite my ongoing QFP issues.  I've done over 200 production boards with almost zero issues other than those mentioned.

Lastly, just so there are some answers on recent questions:

1.  Trays and tubes need to be addressed as I outline above.
2.  Strips would only work if you extend the top tape on the strip so it's long enough to reach the clutch (~10" if I had to guess).
3.  The only clutch issues I had were on partial reels, were the tape had sticky points where it was joined.  The part would get caught up on the metal guide bar and not advance.  Once past that point, there were no issues.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: digistump on July 04, 2013, 09:08:51 pm
@andym

Can you go through the steps you use to check you "fiducials" on the board? I can't for the life of me get the laser crosshairs to show any time except at the origin (which I do from from the Manual tab). Otherwise I have the machine pretty well figured out I think, but it seems like no matter what I press or do I can't get that to work.

Thanks,
Erik
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Stuff4Pi on July 06, 2013, 10:08:35 am
Thank you guys for the great reviews on this PnP. I am also very interested to get one but I am now a little bit worried after andym post as I am using many many QFN chips on my boards.

Is there any other users with QFN placement issue here?
Can you give me a feedback on this particular subject?

Thx,
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: andym on July 13, 2013, 06:04:40 am
@digistump

To do the fiducials, I just create a CSV with fake parts at the locations I use (actual fiducial marks on two corners, and pins on two ICs).  Then, hit "Edit" on the CSV file.  Using the arrow buttons, move to the page with the parts.  Select one, hit enter, then press the center "Joystick" button.  The head jumps to the location and shows the laser crosshair.

Does that make sense?

@Stuff4Pi

My issues are QFP, not QFN.  QFN might actually work better since there are no leads.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: karlschrunk on July 18, 2013, 10:43:52 pm
Hey, another question -- how hackable is this thing?  I'd like to be able to issue commands like "move head left X notches", "turn on vacuum pump", etc from software I write myself (presumably running on a PC attached to this thing, not on the device itself!)

Speed isn't an issue, in fact I'd like to run the device at about 10% of the speed it appears to move at in the videos.

My goal here is to do some higher-accuracy placement, either by bolting a camera on the side of the head and adding some crude vision hacks, or by "realigning" each picked component by bumping it up against the edges of a pocket.  Again, assembly speed is unimportant; if it takes 8 hours to build one board that's fine with me.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on July 31, 2013, 08:51:11 pm
My machine uses V1.01 firmware has anyone a newer version?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ach on August 02, 2013, 03:56:37 am
[quote author="supertronic"]My machine uses V1.01 firmware has anyone a newer version?[/quote]
We bought 2 machines TM240A, one firmware v.1.01, the second - v.1.02. The second machine was customized - 29 pieces 8mm feeders
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Selectech on August 03, 2013, 03:04:50 pm
I got a TM220A direct from Neoden. It arrived { Ottawa, ON } a week ago in great shape. It's SN #949 and v 1.02 firmware.

Now getting it set up for my work. Wonderfully built unit and as others have mentioned it's a really neat design that is well crafted.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: teletypeguy on August 06, 2013, 04:47:30 am
Hey folks:

I have been lurking for a while and listening to the comments, and I am close to getting a machine, but I am conflicted about whether to get the cheaper/smaller/lighter 220 or the pricier/bigger/heavier 240.  My boards are under 5 inches deep, but I have some that are 10 to 12 inches wide.  So the 220A only does about 8.6 inches wide but that might be ok (placement-wise) since there are very few smt parts on the extreme right side of those boards.  So this leads to a question:  Can a pcb cantilever past the right-hand extreme edge of the machine, or is there a metal barrier that precludes such a thing?  If there is a limiting extremity, could it be easily milled down to allow a pcb to hang out the right side?  Of course, the machine could not place parts beyond its limits, but I just want to be able to mount a wider board as needed (and will manually place the few smt components that exceed the normal placement area).

So, can a wider-than-max board be mounted in a 220A?

thx,  gil
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Selectech on August 06, 2013, 02:10:04 pm
On the TM220A a longer ( X dimension ) would not have a  problem. Seems to be ok clearance to moving items, x,Y & head, and also clears the deflector rail that is there for empty component tapes.
I just put a 15" plastic ruler in where the PCB would go and moved the head around to check & no issues observed. MIght have to support the free end of the board to prevent it becoming a springboard during placements, but that should be easy to arrange.
Currently my boards are shorter { 8" } but nice to know that a longer one could fit.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: teletypeguy on August 07, 2013, 03:46:42 am
Thanks selectech -- good to know that I can let a few wider pcbs hang out the right side!  That will help a lot, as I would rather have the smaller 220 and manually place a few bits on the wider ones.

I appreciate it.  Gotta get one soon.

Thx.  Gil
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: teletypeguy on August 07, 2013, 10:37:21 pm
Hey folks;  a few questions on buying one of these, for those of you who have:

So who has found the best place to purchase one of these TM220 or 240 machines for shipment to the USA?  Seeed was going to carry them, but that has not happened yet.

Is direct with Neoden the best price?  Anyone have a contact there?  I see that they are on aliexpress but I am guessing that a direct factory deal would be better.

What have people been paying in US dollars for the machine and for shipping?  Are there additional fees for import?  I have heard some folks say about two weeks delivery -- is that about right?

I have seen reference to a "spares kit" -- what is in it and is it worth the extra cost?  I have also seen "extra nozzles" -- needed or not?  And something about "machine customization" -- what is customized, and why is that worth the extra cost?

thanks in advance,  gil
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Selectech on August 11, 2013, 02:51:15 am
I got my TM220A direct from Neoden, contact with Mia. With spares & shippng, was the best price & I really did want to deal with the mfg.

Wire transfer took a day and shipping was 2 days,
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: teletypeguy on August 12, 2013, 08:24:13 pm
Hey Selectech:

I just got an email reply from Mia at Neoden.  Even though they have a store on aliexpress, the also work direct, as they did with you, and it is a few bucks cheaper on the shipping (and some folks say there are hidden aliexpress fees).  Direct from neoden quote:  $3999, plus $200 for accessory kit, plus $411 for DHL shipping, for a total of $4610 US.  I would rather work directly with the factory, and was happy to find that they replied quickly.  This is wire transfer in advance, which would have made me nervous if not for so many folks here having good experiences, and Ian visiting the factory to boot.  For anyone still pondering a purchase like I have been, here is what is included on the quote I got from Mia:

TM220A, set up for 110V and English (1yr warranty and lifelong service support) ($3999 US), includes:
 - 6 nozzles (2xXS, 2xS, 1xM, 1xL)
 - 8G SD card w/ reader
 - nozzle disassembly tool
 - adjustment tool for nylon spool wheel
 - nozzle cleaning tool
 - user manual and video training course
 - PCB coordinate transformation tool (software?)

"Export Necessary" Accessories ($200 US), includes:
 - 13 more nozzles (5xXS, 3xS, 3xM, 2xL)
 - pin and spring for feeders  (3 sets)
 - electromagnet for feeders
 - pin sensor for feeders
 - nylon spool wheel accessories (10)
 - external shelf (to use big reel on a feeder)
 - nozzle disassembly tool (duplicate)
 - adjustment tool for nylon spool wheel (duplicate)

thanks all,  gil
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: donald on August 15, 2013, 11:11:15 am
Good day all. I'm the sales of this mufacturer. I will be so gald to give the information you need when using or researching our machine.You can give us a private message or send a mail.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: teletypeguy on August 15, 2013, 07:29:39 pm
Hi folks:

This fellow Donald is indeed with Neoden, as I just confirmed with Mia.  When he posted last, he had a hotmail account, and he had contacted me directly as well.  As someone else on the forum had previously alerted me to a fellow with a hotmail account posing as a Neoden representative, and I was just getting ready to wire money for a machine, I envisioned someone trying to intercept a transaction and get me to wire money elsewhere (stranger things have happened -- scammers are everywhere).  I even alerted Ian, who took down the post with the hotmail address.

Anyway, sorry Donald, but we all just have to be careful, and Neoden would not like to lose a sale to a scammer either, I'm sure.  Please use your neoden email address next time -- it will give you the credibility needed on an anonymous forum like this.

OK, I'm off to wire money.  Looking forward to getting the machine soon.

gil
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sleepwalker3 on August 15, 2013, 09:01:02 pm
Good luck with it Gill, let us know how you go.

Email addresses shouldn't be posted unless well 'disguised' (anti spam measures) to avoid spam, even then it's far better just to do a PM and get the details from there
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: donald on August 16, 2013, 02:37:03 am
Hello Gil,Mia told me about this,I'm sorry for misunderstanding to be a scammer. I will use our company mail next time.Anyway I will be glad to support any information for everybody about the machine.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: smtebuyreese on August 16, 2013, 06:16:52 am
hi, thank u very much for sharing and ur interested in our pick and place machine.
yes, i am a supplier of this machine :)))
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: teletypeguy on August 18, 2013, 05:03:30 am
Hmm.  Another Neoden guy?  We just went through this with Donald, (who, as it turns out, is actually with neoden).  So smtebuyreese, are you really a legitimate Neoden representative, or are YOU a scammer?  We are very skeptical of these anonymous posts.  Does simple saying "yes, i am a supplier of this machine" make you legitimate? 

Ahh, spidey senses are tingling once again.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sleepwalker3 on August 18, 2013, 05:49:40 am
Hi, I am a sales for this  :D    Honest ;)  Just give me your Credit card details and I'll sort the rest :)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: donald on August 19, 2013, 02:39:01 am
Hi smtebuyreese.This is Donlad from Neoden, I'm sure you are not from our company,maybe you are one of our distributor.But you can give us your company name for confirm.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: teletypeguy on August 20, 2013, 07:21:54 pm
Wow!  I wired money to Neoden last Thursday.  It is now merely Tuesday, and the DHL truck just dropped off my TM220 crate! 

I nearly pooped my pants.  That was lightning-fast shipping from China to the US.  You rock Neoden!

It looks like it had never even been in a truck;  I was expecting dings or cracked corners.  DHL took great care with the crate.

Thye sent the wrong power cord, with some funky angled prongs, but the machine has a standard IEC power jack, and I presume the internal power supply is 110-to-220, 50/60Hz (correct me if I am wrong folks).

Gotta figure out how to use it now.  I have been reading posts, collecting notes, trying the eagle ulp and all that.  Hopefully get it running soon.

gil
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sleepwalker3 on August 20, 2013, 08:05:19 pm
DHL have been very quick in my experience, typically 3-4 days China - Aus. If you have "Angled Prongs" and they are opposite angles at about 45 degrees, plus 1 'straight' pin, then you have an Australian plug, which may mean you have a 240V unit 50Hz. I don't know if they have a separate supply or Universal SMPS or whatever, but you probably want to check that it is suitable for your area first.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: teletypeguy on August 20, 2013, 10:00:42 pm
Hey sleepwalker3:

Yea, I see that it is an Australian power cord on my TM220.  Gee, I have some relatives down there somewhere.  I used to have a buddy in NZ who was on my teletype list, but he passed away.  Still have the little kiwi bird he sent me, sitting on my shelf.  And to answer those who have asked me about teletype machines, yes, I have quite few, many of which I have restored.  Maybe I will use a 1930s-vintage baudot paper-tape reader, or the ascii tape reader on an ASR33 from the 60s, to feed the placement program into my TM220A -- way more fun than just plugging in an SD card.  But I digress.

I do not see a power label on the TM220A saying something easy like "110-to-220, 50/60 Hz," so I don't want to just plug it in yet.  I'll ask the factory, but that will be a reply tomorrow.  Does anyone else know if I can just plug in 110/60?  I thought someone said something like that once.  As Mr. Mom said, "220, 221, whatever it takes."

But in the skinny neoden manual, all it says is "220/50, CONVERTIBLE to 110."  No word on what the conversion entails, but as I do not see a 110/220 switch externally-visible, there is the possibility that it could entail internal jumpers.  Really didn't want to open it up, but will if needed.

Any power supply advice appreciated.  thx,  gil
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Selectech on August 21, 2013, 03:07:09 am
If you look thru the vent grill on the side of the TM220 you can see the red voltage selector switch of the power supply to check that it's in the correct position.

I got the same cord, but the unit was set for 110. I did check before I plugged it in & found that you could see the selector switch without taking anything apart. I have lots of 110V IEC cords so no problem using the unit { & a growing pile of 220V cords that I have received with things }.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: teletypeguy on August 21, 2013, 04:32:01 pm
Hi selectech:

I couldn't see a red selector switch through the side grill, though it was not the best of light when I looked.

I did get a note from Mia at Neoden that the unit was set up for 110 and just needed the correct cord.  I am going to read up some more on the forums, and watch a few videos before firing it up though.  thx,  gil
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sleepwalker3 on August 22, 2013, 02:21:38 am
It's great having so many people spread around the world and the advice you can get from others :)
We all seem to end up with cords and plugpacks we don't need these days. I'm in Aus, but strangly need cords for US 110V stuff for my bench, but they cost a heap down here, so I'll probably end up getting some off E-bay or one of the Chinese suppliers.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: koastie on August 30, 2013, 04:35:21 am
After reading all the reviews here I have a TM-240A on the way. Now to find a decent reflow oven. Does anyone have any experience with the T200C+ oven?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: donald on August 31, 2013, 03:01:45 am
hello Koasite, just as said I'm the saler of Neoden. We have a party company with good reflow oven,but only T962C  T962 A and T960.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: TTKKBear3 on September 09, 2013, 01:42:48 am
How is you PM575 working? We are now trying to get a PM575 working but it is in slow mode and we need it to go in to fast mode. Seems to be in good mechanical condition. Any suggestions? We do not have any manuals.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: donald on September 10, 2013, 02:48:37 am
[quote author="TTKKBear3"]How is you PM575 working? We are now trying to get a PM575 working but it is in slow mode and we need it to go in to fast mode. Seems to be in good mechanical condition. Any suggestions? We do not have any manuals.[/quote]
 sorry for not understanding about PM575.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: TTKKBear3 on September 10, 2013, 01:00:17 pm
I was referring to a Juki/Zevatech PM575 talked about on page 7. New here and did not realize post showed up at end. It is working but very slow (like engineering mode) and need to switch to a faster production mode. Suggestions welcome.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sleepwalker3 on September 10, 2013, 01:10:05 pm
[quote author="TTKKBear3"]I was referring to a Juki/Zevatech PM575 talked about on page 7. New here and did not realize post showed up at end. It is working but very slow (like engineering mode) and need to switch to a faster production mode. Suggestions welcome.[/quote]
Try sending a PM to the person who posted about that machine, looks like he has all the manuals
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: echtogammut on September 11, 2013, 12:24:17 am
I am looking at buying the TM220 or TM240, so I emailed Mia, but I curious if there is anywhere else other than AlieExpress where these can be obtained? It looks like Ian was putting together orders earlier in the year, but it sounds like people are just going factory direct now?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: teletypeguy on September 14, 2013, 04:04:14 am
Hey there echtogammut:

DP won't be putting together anymore group buys for this;  in fact, since DP is moving to China, their TM220A is up for sale (but you have pick it up in Amsterdam and need a 220V machine).  I suspect that Ian wants a TM240, or just wants to let seeed do the building.  See: viewtopic.php?f=68&t=5867 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=5867)

I don't know much about AliExpress (though many others here have gotten a machine through them).  I did hear about an extra fee or something, but nothing concrete.

I went directly to Mia at Neoden, wired them the money, and had my machine in a few days.  Great DHL shipping with not even a scratch on the wood crate.

The topic sentence of this thread is pnp for $3600, but that was some time ago.  The machine, now that it is popular, is currently $3999 US.  That, plus $200 for a spares kit, plus dhl shipping, took me to about $4600 US total for the 220A.  I'm not complaining though, as it is a great little machine.

gil
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: teletypeguy on September 14, 2013, 05:32:33 am
Hi folks:

So I finally got a chance to try out my tm220 today.  Just a test placement of one of my boards onto double-sided tape.  I learned a few things, and I'll talk about one issue here: wider-than-spec boards.  I'll follow up with another post on other stuff.

This is a board wider than the machine can handle, but I am happy to have most of it automatically placed (and just need to manually drop a half-dozen bits on the right side after taking it off the machine).  The TM220A is spec'd for 220mm-wide max boards.  It is interesting, but the left nozzle (head-1) cannot quite get that far over, but the right nozzle (head-2) can get over just a bit beyond that.

While a pcb in the 220A can indeed cantilever out the right side, there were a few implications to the board being wider than machine specs.  First, at the front-right side gantry mount, there is an optoisolator,  with wires running down through the mounting plate.  The extra-wide board hit the wires to this opto and would not seat fully against the machined registration stop.  However, it was easy enough to press these wires forward a bit with a soft dowel, and let the board seat properly.  Second, the eagle placement ulp file (the last version I can find is 1.0h from jamz), while being designed for the 220A (and not the larger 240A), does not enforce any bounds checking, which is fine with me.  Not unexpectedly, once I loaded the file onto the SD card, and loaded it into the 220A, I quickly got an error at "line-x."  So I needed to find line-x in my editor, and figure out what the problem was.  OK, it was a part at 269mm horizontal, which is clearly beyond the machine's 220mm bounds -- I knew I needed to do a little editing.  I edited out one line at a time to see what would pass the machine's "sd-file-load-test" and was happy to get an error-free load.  Still, there were some bounds-related issues that would cause the machine to hang during placement (these were parts near and a bit beyond 220mm, but they passed the file-load test).

So after a bit of editing, the short answer:  If a component is positioned at greater than about 226mm horizontally, I delete the line in the placement file (needs to be manually-placed).  If a component is positioned at less than 200mm, it can be placed by head-1 or head-2.  If a component is positioned between about 200mm and 226 mm, it needs to be placed by head-2 (as head-1 does not reach quite that far).  Both heads seem to be able to reach a bit further, but the machine would freeze -- this is just the quick result of my empirical tests today, but at least it is good to know that the machine can place a bit wider than the 220mm spec, and it is also useful to know that head-1 cannot quite make it that far.

FWIW,  gil
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: teletypeguy on September 14, 2013, 07:35:23 am
When I load a tape, how do I ALIGN it horizontally?  So the feed holes are found and the part is picked up in the center?  Does not seem to be critical with an 0603/0805 with a 4mm spacing, but what about an IC with an 8mm spacing?  There has to be some alignment criterion after reel installation.  What about height?  The parts are all aligned to the top of the tape, but deeper parts will not need to drop as far. ???

What about the front (reel-0) slots -- I thought offset of 1/2 of the part's X and Y and feed-spacing of 18mm, but it seems hosed.    It seems to want to pick up way further horizontally, and then fails.  Is height the part nominal height?  Any advice?

thx,  gil
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: chomw on September 14, 2013, 08:38:56 pm
When you edit a job, you can select a position and then check if tape advance pin hits the hole in the tape. There is no way to change the pin position so you need to adjust the tape manually. High precision is not necessary, you can set it by eye; it pays to  group your parts by package on the rack to aid in eyeballing.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: chomw on September 14, 2013, 08:40:11 pm
The height of the part is set in the job file, see this -> http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/TM2 ... ile_format (http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/TM220A_Pick_and_Place_resources#Placement_file_format)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: chomw on September 14, 2013, 08:48:34 pm
I only use one part in stack 0. It is 7x7mm 32L TQFP. The numbers for the part aligned to the top left corner are X -5.5, Y 5, feed 18.01. Hope this helps.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: teletypeguy on September 15, 2013, 05:43:44 pm
Hi chomw: 
Thanks for the info.  I will try edit mode tomorrow and learn how to align the tape to the pin. 
Regarding the stack 0 trays, why do you have a negative 5.5 for X?  What is the 0,0 reference for the tray?  I had presumed the left-rear corner, as that was how they demo'd it in a video, but now I realize that must not be correct.  Also, you have a square part yet your x and y values are different -- now I am really confused.  Gil
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: chomw on September 15, 2013, 06:47:15 pm
Maybe if I align it against rear-left the coordinates would be the same - I don't know? The tray cell should be larger than the largest specified part so the 0,0 will never be in the center.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Mia on September 19, 2013, 09:24:51 am
Hello, This is Mia Chen from NeoDen. I'm here to thank you all for your great support on our pick and place machines TM220A and TM240A, and hope you enjoy the working experience with our machines. If you got any question about TM220A or TM240A, please feel free to contact us. Best Wishes.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: koastie on September 20, 2013, 08:00:51 am
My TM-240A is working well. A very clever and innovative design. I am still looking for a reflow oven. Anyone have experience with the Glichn ovens or know of any other decent ovens? A DIY toaster oven conversion is NOT an option as I need to get things in production and have no time to mess with it.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Eclipze on September 21, 2013, 01:49:12 pm
This thread has been extremely useful for info!

Quite interested in the TM240A.  I have quite a few reels of domed PLCC4 LEDs to load on boards.  Tape is 12mm and parts have a 3.45mm height (tape height 3.65mm).  I know 3mm is the max height, however given the quantity of these I need to load, I have interest in modifying to suit.  From what I can see with images I've sighted, the height restriction is between the bolts at the tape exit, as well as the pressure placed on the spring.  It looks like the entire tape block could be removed with a couple of bolts.  My idea is with loading that block in the CNC and shaving off a enough at the front 12mm feeder to accommodate the tape depth, as well as a thin slot cut at one end of the spring clip to reduce it's height.

Does this approach seem feasible/practical?

I do recognize the likely need to modify a pick up tip to handle the domed LED surface.  I've had plenty of fun placing (chasing*) them with a vac pen.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tonnyneoden on October 07, 2013, 07:04:48 am
If you have the similar situation as the above person said ,you can contact us and see if we can help you solve it.We are the manufacturer of this machine.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Eclipze on October 07, 2013, 07:12:29 am
Thanks for your reply!  Good to hear this is possible.

I ordered a TM240A a week ago, just before your national holiday.  Ordered with some extra tips in case I need to modify for reliable domed LED pickup.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: skartalov on October 25, 2013, 01:48:53 pm
[attachment=0]Hi,
I am the next happy owner of the TM220A machine!
I contacted Mia from this forum, and ordered directly neodentech.

The machine arrived in 3 days! :-)

It was pretty good packaged (see the image)

Now I start to learn how to use it.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sleepwalker3 on October 25, 2013, 04:04:54 pm
<Me> turns green with envy  :P
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: GEORGE on October 27, 2013, 06:54:05 am
Hi all,
anybody here from Aus using the 240A machine ?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sleepwalker3 on October 27, 2013, 07:51:31 am
There was a guy from Brisvegas running one with his company, but not sure which model. I think it was one of the earlier posts, so if you go back through them, you'll probably find some details.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sleepwalker3 on October 27, 2013, 08:07:42 am
Just sent you a PM with the details
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: GEORGE on October 27, 2013, 10:11:11 am
hi sleep walker
i send  a PM
rgds
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: GEORGE on October 29, 2013, 03:19:18 am
[shadow]Hi skartalov,

I am the next happy owner of the TM220A machine!
I contacted Mia from this forum, and ordered directly neodentech.

The machine arrived in 3 days! :-)

It was pretty good packaged (see the image)

Now I start to learn how to use it.[/shadow]

Hows the stuff, did you goton to the job with it?

BR
George
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: skartalov on October 30, 2013, 09:04:20 am
Hi George,

I still didn't go so deep with it. Still testing, loading some reels, learning how to work with the EAGLE ULP and so on.
Also ordered a batch of PCBs to my local provider, trying to make a stencil, ( I also bought a stencil printer from the same company for $80), etc.
But until now everything looks promising.


I will keep you posted.

P.S. I am from Bulgaria.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: GEORGE on October 30, 2013, 09:33:28 am
Hi George,

I still didn't go so deep with it. Still testing, loading some reels, learning how to work with the EAGLE ULP and so on.
Also ordered a batch of PCBs to my local provider, trying to make a stencil, ( I also bought a stencil printer from the same company for $80), etc.

please check the PM
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sjaak on October 31, 2013, 09:26:00 am
[quote author="GEORGE"]Hi George,

I still didn't go so deep with it. Still testing, loading some reels, learning how to work with the EAGLE ULP and so on.
Also ordered a batch of PCBs to my local provider, trying to make a stencil, ( I also bought a stencil printer from the same company for $80), etc.

please check the PM[/quote]

Any more info on the stencil machine? 80$ seems a bargain.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: matseng on October 31, 2013, 09:30:50 am
My guess is that "printer" should be "printed", so the stencil itself is $80 - not the machine.  :-(
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sjaak on October 31, 2013, 10:00:55 am
[quote author="matseng"]My guess is that "printer" should be "printed", so the stencil itself is $80 - not the machine.  :-([/quote]

Hence the question :D If it looks too good too be true it is ;)

BTW i finally got the boards and stuff you send from Ian. Thank you!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: GEORGE on November 01, 2013, 08:07:25 am
Thanks for the reply matseng ,
does any body uses the semi- automatic solder printer for the process here?

GEORGE
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Eclipze on November 06, 2013, 03:14:22 am
Setup the first job for my TM240A.  Double sided with 0603/0805/1206/SOT89/SOT23/SOT323/PLCC4/MSOP8/TSSOP.  Placed the first trial board yesterday.

The first board went together pretty smoothly.  I'd placed some parts on double sided tape to start with.  Had to adjust a few offsets.  I tried placing the MSOP8 from the front tray, which placed great on the tape, but placed quite poorly on the paste.  Finding on bigger parts I'm getting part rotation on pickup, or it rotation is too quick and the part doesn't adhere to the pickup head enough for the fast rotation.  I suspect this is just tuning the pickup head height for that component, as well as using a bigger tip where possible.  Did the TSSOP manually.

One thing I have noticed, is at certain speeds the rails resonate like they aren't lubricated.  The gantry isn't misaligned.  I tried some light lubrication oil I use for rails on a small precision CNC machine.  I'm not sure if it's just the speed I'm running and the step resonance hitting the right frequency.

I used both heads for efficient two component pickup where possible.  I needed two different pickup nozzles to handle the different components, but for the most part, it worked well.  The big issue was the PLCC4 LEDs loaded on one side.  I had a lot to load, so I setup the file to use both heads.  The TM240A software would crash after the first part was placed.  It was only picking up one component to start with too.  I got in contact with Mia, who advised quite promptly.  The issue is, the machine cannot index for dual pickup where the index distance is 8mm per part.  It only works for 4mm spaced parts.  The solution is to load two tapes of the same part, and have the heads pickup from their own reel.  It works.  But you have to start with head 1.  If you start with head 2, the software still locks up and you have to power cycle.

Took a while to setup this very first run, but I expect the second time will be a lot quicker for a new job setup.  Can see this is a good option to conveniently run a small batch.  Placement accuracy was good enough.  Had a couple of parts I nudged to ensure no reflow issue.  Not yet sure how confident I'II be with 0402 and TSSOP/QFN yet.  Wanted to try a relatively easy board first.  Board reflowed both side perfectly (using a stainless stencil).  Going to be great loading these boards.  I'd normally only load about 6 of these in a day.  But have a feeling I'II get all 40 done when I run the batch.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: charliex on November 23, 2013, 01:14:35 am
i just ordered a TM220a from Mia/Neoden yesterday. looking fwd to joining the club, should complement our modded juki 460 pretty well.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: skartalov on November 23, 2013, 07:57:36 am
This is what I've got for $80. It was sent with the TM220A machine.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sleepwalker3 on November 23, 2013, 08:13:01 am
Looks nice, darn good deal too! I assume that the hinged part is spring loaded or something, so that it stays up and out of the road?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: charliex on November 24, 2013, 02:56:32 am
I just got an exception notice from DHL for shipment on hold, contact DHL, though they only do mon-fri here.

 Anyone else get that , was it just a paperwork thing?

charlie
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Taniwha on November 25, 2013, 08:06:10 am
my 240 is on order I wait with baited  breath

I also have one of those stencil  machines (or something similar )  it has a large adjustable  weight  to make it  stay up when you lift it
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: charliex on November 25, 2013, 06:42:06 pm
[quote author="charliex"]I just got an exception notice from DHL for shipment on hold, contact DHL, though they only do mon-fri here.

 Anyone else get that , was it just a paperwork thing?

charlie[/quote]

yeah talked to Mia, who's been great thus far. probably just missed the plane and DHL gives odd messages, but its back on course again.

charlie
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: charliex on November 26, 2013, 10:37:25 pm
How do you manually change from head 1 to 2 via the touch screen/edit menu, it won't let me change from head 1, i preloaded the smt test, and edited the cell, selected head, 1 press, up.down, nada.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Taniwha on November 30, 2013, 02:17:06 am
yeah DHL seems to be fun to deal with - I got 2 of the 3 things I ordered from Neoden, still waiting for the crate with the actual P&P machine, maybe Monday
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: hristov on November 30, 2013, 06:32:56 pm
skartalov it seems to be a good deal. I have sent a PM to you.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: charliex on December 04, 2013, 03:09:03 am
i have to say, even though i've only done the test run so far with some resistors and i'm regretting getting the 220 vs the 240, seems worth the diff in price.

Though it'd be nice if they made the rack for the reels swappable as a whole unit, it seems doable.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: pixbroker on December 19, 2013, 12:57:35 am
Hi, i have been looking at the 16 feeder version but have a question:

my boards typically have anywhere from 30-50 different parts. even the 440 version (28 feeders) doesn't cover that. what do you busy typically do if you have more parts on a board than feeders? do you have to run the board thru the machine twice? aside from the overhead of doing that, i would be concerned that the past is dry by the time i have setup all new reels, etc.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: charliex on December 19, 2013, 01:08:22 am
yeah you have to swap and rethread and run it again, its not like a juki or such where you can just replace a single or group of feeders, they're fixed in place.

they're not too finicky to replace, but it'll take a bit.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: pixbroker on December 19, 2013, 01:19:28 am
what would you guess it takes to rethread all 16 reels? ballpark? 10 minutes? as said in my original post, i would just be concerned about the past getting too dry during the rethread. i would potentially have to rethread twice for some boards.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: charliex on December 19, 2013, 01:47:02 am
yeah 10 minutes is doable, the finicky bit its just tying off the leader tape.

i think it can be modded to change the whole reel set, but you just need the parts , not sure if neoden are willing and/or cost.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: pixbroker on December 19, 2013, 04:21:43 pm
is/was there a group buy for these machines and if so, at what price(s)?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Taniwha on December 22, 2013, 08:15:36 am
I think that what you do is you start to design for smaller numbers of parts ..... need a 1k5 resistor for USB pullup? use 1k5s in place of 1ks for LEDs and other places you don't care much.

I bought a 240, it's definitely worth having the larger number of feeders - I wish Neoden did something simple - publish a photo of the two machines side by side to show the difference in sizes, and explain the difference in capabilities more, to help people decide

I'm starting to think about the number of reels when I do design - plus suddenly I'm buying parts by the reel - Digikey will charge you $8 for a reel of resistors - which is stupidly cheap - spend a couple of hundred dollars and buy a standard range - I got 1k/10k/... and 4k7/47k/... plus reels of .1uF and 1uf caps and a couple  of reels of LEDs from Aliexpress

Meanwhile I'm trying to figure out what to do with the crate it came in, maybe I'll make a small boat
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: pixbroker on December 22, 2013, 09:26:47 pm
I contacted Dangerousprototypes (via contact form) about the group buy but no response yet. Is anyone aware of another group buy? i noticed that neoden has some "lot" sales on alibaba where they offer 3 (for example) 240's at a great price. seems like if there are any other folks here thinking about a purchase, we should get together. I'm currently leaning towards a 240 because of the number of reels. I'm located in the US, in case that matters.

can someone post info on the last group buy and what the price ended up being (savings over non-group buy)?

anyone in for a group buy?

on another note: can people who already own and operate a 220 or 240 comment on it's ability to handle 0402 and 0201 sizes?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: chomw on December 23, 2013, 01:04:52 am
In my experience, 0402 are placed more accurately than 0603, likely because the packaging is tighter. I haven't tried 0201.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: charliex on December 30, 2013, 10:50:41 pm
i pulled the spring fingers off my machine, i have boards that have components close to the edge and the fingers get in the way, so i just use the slot with some double sided tape to hold it in place, works similar to the way our juki works now.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: charliex on January 02, 2014, 05:13:49 am
so it looks like you can't place at negative X? but the machine will happily go ahead and try, but it'll put it at X = 0

i guess i'll offset the PCB holder a tad.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: 2thick4uni on January 02, 2014, 08:01:53 pm
Can any users help? I'm seriously considering buying a TM-240, but the boards that I build have around 50 different value components - mostly 1206 or 805 and almost all are on 8mm tapes. At present I have 10 different boards, so probably 200-300 different components in total and it would be too expensive to buy all of the components on reels - I currently buy them on strips of 100 to 500 and only use four or five reels for more common values which I'd leave permanently in place. I do small runs of between 10 and twenty boards at a time.  Because there are a maximum of 28 feeders I'd have to do a run of boards then swap out components on the feeders and do a second run.

Can 8mm strips of 100 components be loaded and fed ok? I realize that the clear cover tape could be an issue as it wont be long enough to wrap back onto take up reels, but I'd know how many components it would use per run so could just remove the correct length prior to starting up the placing operation.  Does this sound possible?

Also, I use Cadsoft Eagle for PCB design; can anyone using the Eagle script let me know if it works ok with the TM-240 and if I could spit it into two operations as proposed?

Thanks,
Allan
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: charliex on January 02, 2014, 08:48:06 pm
I've been using the DP-TM220A.ulp from the forum (With a couple of changes for attribute checks and ignoring test pads, jumpers etc) it generates two csv's currently with all the parts as top/bottom, but you can easily change that so its multiple CSV's or just hand edit later. You could even add an attribute that defines which reel set/run the component is in.

I've got my TM220a loaded with a strip of 0608's that are not  on a reel, digikey almost give you enough leader, but not quite so you either add a paper strip+tape leader or loose some components. you can manually hold back the tape til its long enough, or extend it.

It does take a while to switch reels,  since unlike most big pnp's you have to rethread the strips. i wish they'd setup it up so you could switch a whole block of reels at once, you could have a part cnc'd that would allow it. its really close to being able to be done.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: 2thick4uni on January 03, 2014, 12:26:57 am
Quote
I've been using the DP-TM220A.ulp from the forum (With a couple of changes for attribute checks and ignoring test pads, jumpers etc) it generates two csv's currently with all the parts as top/bottom, but you can easily change that so its multiple CSV's or just hand edit later. You could even add an attribute that defines which reel set/run the component is in.

Sounds like the DP-TM220A.ulp will do everything I need, I'll download it and have a play. So it simply produces a csv coordinate file and the reel set is chosen by the TM-240 rather than the Eagle Ulp?

Quote
I've got my TM220a loaded with a strip of 0608's that are not on a reel, digikey almost give you enough leader, but not quite so you either add a paper strip+tape leader or loose some components. you can manually hold back the tape til its long enough, or extend it.

Looks like I will be fine with cut strips then :-) I'll just extend the tape leader as you suggest, I'd rather not loose components as some of them are precision resistors at 50 cents each, don't want to be throwing away ten or more of those each time!

Yes, I'd agree that making all of the feeders removable as a block would be a great feature - has anyone suggested this to Neoden? It's a missed opportunity to sell some additional feeders to almost every user.  My solution will probably be to buy a second machine, that way I could fully stuff boards without having to stop the job half way and change components on all of the feeders. It would also give me a backup if one machine goes down. I'd prefer the multiple feeder option though.....

Many thanks for the help!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: charliex on January 03, 2014, 12:49:10 am
You create a reel set in the ULP, which specifys the reel index 0, being the front tray,  1+ being the reels, a height for the part, then a mm amount to move the part in the feeder, for a 0603 i used 0.5 height and 4mm move.

then assign the parts to each of the components. once they're all assigned, it generates a top/bottom CSV the only thing i had to manually edit was the PCB offset. which is the second line.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: 2thick4uni on January 03, 2014, 01:24:35 am
Quote
You create a reel set in the ULP, which specifys the reel index 0, being the front tray, 1+ being the reels, a height for the part, then a mm amount to move the part in the feeder, for a 0603 i used 0.5 height and 4mm move.

Ah, now I get it. I've downloaded the ULP and had a quick look at it along with the relevant forum posts, looks great - can even add extra reels for TM-240 but probably need a portrait monitor to view them all.

Looks like it will do the job :-)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Taniwha on January 08, 2014, 06:37:01 am
I mix strips and reels - for short/non leaders on strips I'm taking a length of thick thread - fold it in half - tie a few knots to make a loop and drop that into the slot of the take up spool, pull the loop at the other end tight and then fold a thin bit of masking tape through it, stick one side above the short leader and one below
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: GEORGE on January 19, 2014, 06:32:48 am
hi,
did anybody tried a tray of qfp fixed on the machine?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tchapman on February 15, 2014, 08:10:16 pm
I am interested in buying a 240.  I sure wish there were a usb port so the file  ( text file ) could be edited on the fly in a PC and dumped to the device versus having to use the SD. It think that since they already have the SD card reader and software to read the SD, that it would be a simple matter to add a feature to allow a USB transfer, and store to SD for faster setups.  Maybe the company can respond as to whether I could add my own USB port, and attach my own processor to the card for file transfer.  Perhaps if the machine is not reading the file, then the SD card is not mounted and I can make a mod to allow for the PC to write to a processor module that writes the file to SD.  An alternative may be to use a wifi SD card so the card never has to leave the slot, just write to the SD with changes or new files.

I have parts close to the edge, but it looks like this has been addressed as an easy thing to solve by removing the top fingers. 

If the board was cut on a saw, is there any offset from fiducial 1 to fiducial 2 to account for some non-square board?

Can a text file be created from scratch or is the ULP mandatory?  I have eagle and will download and see if it works later. 

I noticed some comments on a larger part being rotated due the rotation being to fast or abrupt rotation stop.  On my own PNP design, I can slow down the rotation.  Can the rotation speed be adjusted on this machine to avoid the part overshooting?

Thanks for any responses.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: teletypeguy on February 19, 2014, 03:24:46 am
Hey tchapman: 

I have a 220, and am constantly moving the SD from the machine to a laptop for editing, so I understand your concern.  To be fair, once the file is tweaked, you just run it from the card.  However, it takes a while to get a file from the ULP to a ready-to-go state.

I have also wondered about using a wifi-sd card -- anyone try one?

First off, you could manually build a file.  You can also edit them in the machine (though the date/time disappears which bothers some pc progs).

The ULP from jamz is, though not perfect, very useful.  It extracts all of the part centroids, and builds a good starting file.  Since Eagle ULP is some C code of sorts, anyone can tweak it, but I have not looked into that yet.  I have been tweaking the ULP-generated csv file for each board.  Some of the changes I manually make:
- fix the %... lines so they line up in the columns properly on the machine
- remove rotations of 180 or -180 for (many) non-polar R and C parts
- fix errors when a tape IC is 180 degrees off
- fix errors when a tape diode is 180 degrees off
- group all like parts together (they are sorted by ref-des), so I can set head-1/2 on alternating parts for efficiency
- insert speed commands between different groups (eg: 80% for basic R and C, 30% for Tant-A for less fall-off and better place...)
- break the file into more than one to do multiple runs per board (eg: add an IC to front tray, run xxx2.csv, etc)

gil
Title: Re: Front Tray Problems -- HELP!
Post by: teletypeguy on February 19, 2014, 03:53:18 am
Hey folks:

I have been frustrated today -- problems with chips in the front tray -- HELP!

It is a simple file to place eight identical parts that are loaded in the tray 0 pockets.

Problem 1:  Height.  These are SOP-22 chips, so I initially set height to the spec of 1.8mm, and the head would go to the first pocket, hammer the nozzle up and down a bit (never reaching the chip), then try pocket 2, then 3, then give up with a constant beeeeeeep.  I then set height to 0, and it seemed to work for one or two boards, and then it started missing at some random pick up (eg: it would pick up and place from pocket 1 to 3, then fail with the hammer/beep, sometimes just get two, maybe four, maybe none).  I tried height of -1, and it does not seem to matter what the height is.  Any advice????????

Problem 2:  Failure-lock-up.  When the machine does get to a pickup failure (tray or reel) and starts the constant beeeeeep, it does not seem to have a way to escape out, let you fix the problem, and continue.  I have needed to make a temp csv with the already-placed parts deleted, which is a real PITA.  Am I missing something?

Problem 3:  Rotation on the first part from the front tray (only).  The first part (pocket) of tray one gets picked up, should not rotate at all, but gets placed with about a 15-degree-clockwise error -- happens every time.  Subsequent identically-defined parts place with no rotation, as they should.  This is with very slow 30% speed with an L nozzle.  It is also head-2, since I need it to reach over 220mm for a couple of other (reel) chips in the same run (I have not tried it with head-1),  Huh?

Any advice appreciated.  Excerpt of the file is below.

thx,  gil
-----------

(snip)
%,Setup,Stack,Off-X,Off-Y,Desc,,
65535,1,0,-3,3.5,Front-tray-SOP22,
65535,1,1,0,0,-,
(snip)
%,Feed,Stack,mm,,
65535,2,0,18.015,
65535,2,1,4,
(snip)
%,Panel,Board,Off-X,Off-Y,,
%65535,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,
(snip)
%,30%,Speed,,
0,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,
%,Head,Stack,X,Y,Rot,Height,Skip,Ref,Comment,,
111,2,0,15.24,51.44,0,-1,0,U8,BD3805F-SOIC22-200-50
110,2,0,31.75,51.44,0,-1,0,U7,BD3805F-SOIC22-200-50
109,2,0,48.26,51.44,0,-1,0,U6,BD3805F-SOIC22-200-50
108,2,0,64.77,51.44,0,-1,0,U5,BD3805F-SOIC22-200-50
107,2,0,81.28,51.44,0,-1,0,U4,BD3805F-SOIC22-200-50
106,2,0,97.79,51.44,0,-1,0,U3,BD3805F-SOIC22-200-50
105,2,0,114.30,51.44,0,-1,0,U2,BD3805F-SOIC22-200-50
104,2,0,130.81,51.44,0,-1,0,U1,BD3805F-SOIC22-200-50
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: chomw on February 21, 2014, 10:07:23 pm
Try a larger nozzle. Also, check your nozzles for burrs, preferably under the microscope. One of mine was giving similar results, fixed by lightly sanding the business end using 600 grit sandpaper.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tchapman on February 22, 2014, 12:55:45 am
My 240 has shipped, so in a few days I can get started.  I am contemplating an app to create files that will allow to generate duplicate boards by adding an offset to each new pcb position.  I have one big stencil that has many board types on it, so I can only apply solder to one individual board at a time.  My plan is to take a  piece of aluminum plate, approximate thickness of the pcb (on the edges) to fit the fingers, drill with a cnc  various hole patterns to mount any number of my boards.  Then, I can run a file that may be x1 board, x2, x3, x4 x8 etc depending on the file I created with offsets.  I am assuming that it is an easy matter to set the placement height of the part since the pcb will now be sitting higher than normal? I haven't bothered to look at the Eagle ulp yet.  Ideally I want to input data from an application, then generate the file from that.  Same the app's board configuration, then make easy tweaks, export new file and/or variants of multiples.  I am told by neoden that the wifi sd will not work, although I am not sure why that would be true.  I will try it anyway, since swapping cards seems like not fun.  Not sure why they did not include a usb port for PC/Mac controller or programming, I would pay extra for this feature as the front screen editing seems doable but PC editing would be far more elegant. Oh well.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: teletypeguy on February 26, 2014, 02:53:49 pm
Hey tchapman:

I don't know if you want to raise the board by putting on a holder.  First, the is only 3mm of usable part height as it is, and you will cut that down to 1.4, limiting your part options.  Second, I don't know how the machine would react to the higher surface.  There is a height parameter, which may let you compensate, but I have found height to be useless for front tray parts at least.

You can do arrays of the same board using the built in board offset command.  I have not sone this but others have.  You can also make your own array of different boards, by just laying them out as one big board with all unique reference designators.  Just lay them out the way you want and add provision for scoring or routing.  The place machine thinks it is one big board.  I am doing this for four different boards of the same dimension.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: teletypeguy on February 26, 2014, 02:57:55 pm
Further info on tray 0 issues:

If my cvs places part from the reels first, an then goes to the tray, I get the missed pickup where the head hammers too high, tries three pockets, then gives up.  If I change it to place tray 0 first, things are fine.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on March 11, 2014, 10:15:38 am
If you ran into a failure use the step button to get out of the problem.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on March 20, 2014, 05:54:09 am
Glad everyone is finding this useful. Mine is now sitting in a storage room in Hong Kong waiting to come across the border into Shenzhen. I did not find it particularly useful and stopped playing with it long ago.

At this time I will not be arranging any more group buys, but I still hope to get it for sale at Seeed Studio. We had some motion on this, but then it kind of came to a halt.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: prossin on March 21, 2014, 06:34:17 pm
I attached a new version of the TM220A ULP Eagle Script where I fixed the problems related to the parts rotation, I tested it with many angles combinations including reel rotation correction, now it seems to work fine. Tested only with TM240A with reel number settled at 28.
Title: Re: Front Tray Problems -- HELP!
Post by: prossin on March 22, 2014, 08:01:43 am
[quote author="teletypeguy"]Hey folks:

Problem 2:  Failure-lock-up.  When the machine does get to a pickup failure (tray or reel) and starts the constant beeeeeep, it does not seem to have a way to escape out, let you fix the problem, and continue.  I have needed to make a temp csv with the already-placed parts deleted, which is a real PITA.  Am I missing something?

[/quote]

After fixing the problem you can press F1 key in order to select the part you want to start from.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: prossin on March 24, 2014, 10:56:24 pm
Hi TM220A and TM240A owners!
Here is a new version of the script with multi page reel configuration for TM240A. Not tested yet, hope it works!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Stuff4Pi on March 26, 2014, 04:44:51 am
So I was wondering, after months of operation with your TM2x0A, what are your overall feedbacks on these machines?
Are you happy with it?
Is the price worth it?
What are the limitations?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: prossin on March 26, 2014, 11:33:44 pm
After about 1 month of use and about 100 complex pcbs mounted I can say I'm quite satisfied and I believe it worth the price, alternatives cost a lot and are not suited well for very small runs or prototypes. This is my opinion:

Pros
- Mechanically well built, silent, surprisingly fast and quite precise. (read below about precision)
- No needs of shop-air (professional ones need compressed air)
- Lot of reels included (28 on TM240A) (on professional machines they must be purchased separately and cost a lot)
- Double head for placing 90% of the components (first head for 0603 parts and the 2nd one for bigger components) The remaining components must be placed by hand.
- Very few parts lost if you set-up correctly the component's height and reduce the speed a bit.
- I am able to use small strips with few components if I extend it a bit with some tape (not so easy but it can be done, with other professional machines you can't)
- It works as a stand alone machine, without a PC.

Cons
- Software horrible. Data entry is really time consuming.
- Software update not possible at all.
- Board offset very difficult to set, you need to modify the offset field data inside the file without a keypad. (tip: do not change it, simply try to move slightly the board in order to compensate small offset errors, is easier and faster)
- Board rotation offset compensation not possible.
- Touchscreen not well calibrated with high parallax offset makes it difficult to select the right digit to modify.
- No way to save the speed. You need to change at every power up (however you can define it for every component into the csv).
- Effective precision lower than expected for small components due to the lack of vision compensation. Because of this, precision can't be better than position uncertainty inside the component holder. This is not due to head position imprecision but picking up uncertainty. Not an issue if components are at normal distance but check and some fixing is always needed before soldering.
- Lack of computer connection need to move SD card from PC to Pick&Place every time during setup.

This is my procedure: for each board I place the first 4 or 5 components step by step while moving slightly the board in order to compensate the offset, when ok I push the start button to finish the board. I do not use the fiducial method with laser because is too slow for me and can't fix board rotation offset.

That's all, don't hesitate to ask if this is not enough!
Paolo.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on March 31, 2014, 11:32:31 pm
I am designing a small vision based machine having 60x 8mm feeders exchangeable at a size of 800x700mm.
We meet all CE requirements and the EU machine directive.
The production will start end of year.
Here are some pictures of the construction 50% of design task finished.
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_81.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_82.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_84.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_85.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_83.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_Feederk8mm.76.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_Feederk8mm.77.jpg)
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/SMT700_Feederk8mm1.77.jpg)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: haimi on April 01, 2014, 10:45:26 am
[quote author="prossin"]After about 1 month of use and about 100 complex pcbs mounted I can say I'm quite satisfied and I believe it worth the price, alternatives cost a lot and are not suited well for very small runs or prototypes. This is my opinion:

Pros
- Mechanically well built, silent, surprisingly fast and quite precise. (read below about precision)
- No needs of shop-air (professional ones need compressed air)
- Lot of reels included (28 on TM240A) (on professional machines they must be purchased separately and cost a lot)
- Double head for placing 90% of the components (first head for 0603 parts and the 2nd one for bigger components) The remaining components must be placed by hand.
- Very few parts lost if you set-up correctly the component's height and reduce the speed a bit.
- I am able to use small strips with few components if I extend it a bit with some tape (not so easy but it can be done, with other professional machines you can't)
- It works as a stand alone machine, without a PC.

Cons
- Software horrible. Data entry is really time consuming.
- Software update not possible at all.
- Board offset very difficult to set, you need to modify the offset field data inside the file without a keypad. (tip: do not change it, simply try to move slightly the board in order to compensate small offset errors, is easier and faster)
- Board rotation offset compensation not possible.
- Touchscreen not well calibrated with high parallax offset makes it difficult to select the right digit to modify.
- No way to save the speed. You need to change at every power up (however you can define it for every component into the csv).
- Effective precision lower than expected for small components due to the lack of vision compensation. Because of this, precision can't be better than position uncertainty inside the component holder. This is not due to head position imprecision but picking up uncertainty. Not an issue if components are at normal distance but check and some fixing is always needed before soldering.
- Lack of computer connection need to move SD card from PC to Pick&Place every time during setup.

This is my procedure: for each board I place the first 4 or 5 components step by step while moving slightly the board in order to compensate the offset, when ok I push the start button to finish the board. I do not use the fiducial method with laser because is too slow for me and can't fix board rotation offset.

That's all, don't hesitate to ask if this is not enough!
Paolo.[/quote]

Hi Paolo,
Thanks for your support on our machine and share your use experience with others.
Our machine may not perfect on some points as you mentioned,but worths its value and can help a lot for small and medium enterprices who engaged in SMT business.We will take your advice and try to improve it.
If need any assistance from us ,pls feel free to let us know.

Thanks and best regards
Haimi---Neoden Tech will support you always,we offer one year guarantee and life time after-sale service
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on April 01, 2014, 12:25:08 pm
[quote author="supertronic"]I am designing a small vision based machine having 60x 8mm feeders exchangeable at a size of 800x700mm.
We meet all CE requirements and the EU machine directive.
[/quote]

Looks great!  Care to share any spec's, approximate pricing, etc?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on April 01, 2014, 03:05:14 pm
@bearmos
Please look at the separate topic
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: bearmos on April 01, 2014, 03:27:12 pm
[quote author="supertronic"]@bearmos
Please look at the separate topic[/quote]

NOTE: Other forum topic is here (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=6477)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: thehansson on April 07, 2014, 06:19:25 pm
Thank you so much for the ULP!
Got my '240 a few days ago and had it do actual work within hours much thanks to this forum.
I went in head first with a board that had all SMD on the back side, and discovered that the ULP did not fix the coordinates or turn the parts correctly. Attached is my tweaked script.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: estratos on April 27, 2014, 05:47:02 pm
I've been happily using my TM240a machine to build around 1000 boards in the last ten months but the lack of alignment feature is a handicap. Moreover, calibrating the machine for each reel is sometimes a matter of trial and error. In any case, I've never complained because I know that similar machines with vision and alignments cost much more. I'm now thinking in the M10V machine made by Mechatronika.

I've read in some posts that it costs around $20K so it's four times more expensive that the TM240A machine. However, I seem to have found a middle point between both concepts, a TM240a-like machine called WZ-SR400, It has a mechanical alignment solution for IC's (not valid for passives I think) and also a top camera used to calibrate the picking position. Unlike the TM240A, the WZ-SR400 relies on an external computer running a Windows software. I read in another post that this machine costs around $6K but this has to be verified though.

In any case, I don't think this WZ-SR400 machine fits my current needs but I wanted to post here about this option.

Regards.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: JadBerro on April 27, 2014, 06:49:33 pm
Hello guys!

Received a tm240a machine recently, this thread has been of so much help! I'm yet to use the machine for a production run but things look promising!

The ULP is fine but still needs some work in order to be user friendly and plays well with the 240s reels, if i do anything about it ill make sure to post here.

Keep up the good work everyone!
Title: Also just received TM240A...needle calibration?
Post by: jgramlich on May 12, 2014, 11:07:56 pm
We just got our TM240A and the only problem I'm having is the needle is not lining up with the holes in my component tape reels.  I see how I can change the pickup position...stack position or whatever it's called...but I cannot change the needle position.  It's off about 2-3mm all down the length of the machine.  Help!?  :-)
Title: Re: Also just received TM240A...needle calibration?
Post by: haimi on June 11, 2014, 04:55:59 am
[quote author="jgramlich"]We just got our TM240A and the only problem I'm having is the needle is not lining up with the holes in my component tape reels.  I see how I can change the pickup position...stack position or whatever it's called...but I cannot change the needle position.  It's off about 2-3mm all down the length of the machine.  Help!?  :-)[/quote]
hello,did you solve your problem?This is Haimi from Neoden.
If need any help about operation,pls send mail to me.
Or add my skype haimi2008
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: haimi on July 04, 2014, 08:18:31 am
Hi everybody here,
This is Haimi from Neoden Tech Co.,Ltd .We are professional manufacturer of Desktop Automatic Pick and Place Machine TM240A&TM220A.
Thank you all for kindly attention on our machine and some of you may already get one.If need any help pls feel free to let us know.We offer after-sales service for life time.
My skype:haimi2008
e-mail:haimi@neodentech.com
QQ:847018245

Wish you all fine!
Thanks and best regards
Haimi
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: haimi on July 04, 2014, 08:23:56 am
[quote author="Royce"]This is quite an interesting product!

Sam, if you do buy one, please let us know how it works!

Looking at the photograph, however, I see steppers and belts and other relatively mundane equipment. Every hobby PnP I have ever seen appeared to be constructed similarly but was far, far slower than this device. What's the secret sauce to such speed?[/quote]

Hi everybody here,
This is Haimi from Neoden Tech Co.,Ltd .We are professional manufacturer of Desktop Automatic Pick and Place Machine TM240A&TM220A.
Thank you all for kindly attention on our machine.Some of you may already got one.If need any help pls feel free to let us know.We offer after-sales service for life time.
My skype:haimi2008
e-mail:haimi@neodentech.com
QQ:847018245

Wish you all fine!
Thanks and best regards
Haimi
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: echtogammut on July 16, 2014, 08:01:00 pm
I bought a TM220A a couple of months ago, calibrated it and now it looks like I don't have a need for it. If anyone is interested I have the spare parts kit ($200 retail) and it is essentially brand new. If you are in the S.F. Bay area I can arrange for you to view it and free shipping, otherwise $3700 + shipping (including the spare parts kit). I also have a T-962c that was tested for $500 + shipping.

Feel free to e-mail me at: mkent@wifireremote.com

Thanks,
Matt
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: malawicarsten on August 03, 2014, 06:39:20 pm
Hi

First post from me...
I have followed this tread as I'm also looking into a machine.

Just found these that look as if they have vision, but not the speed of the 220/240

Don't know if they are same machine but different seller as Price is different and using Google translate from Chinese to English and then I have to try and figure something out when going for Danish...

Hmm spam filter, will post links to the tomorrow
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sleepwalker3 on August 04, 2014, 04:59:38 am
Welcome to DP. If you have problems with Google Translate, try Bing Translate, I've found it's often better for Chinese stuff, at least when converting to English.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: malawicarsten on August 06, 2014, 01:44:20 pm
Hi



As promised here are links:

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a23 ... 17462&ns=1 (http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.80.DYE6Qk&id=38641117462&ns=1)

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z ... 2640073277 (http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.1.w4004-5063167005.6.tIzzty&id=12640073277)



One of them have video picking up from a tray:
 
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTI5MzMyMDQ0.html (http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTI5MzMyMDQ0.html)

Don't know if they are same machine but different seller as Price is different and using Google translate from Chinese to English and then I have to try and figure something out when going for Danish...
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sleepwalker3 on August 07, 2014, 04:08:13 pm
I just used Bing translate from Auto (Chinese) to Danish and it worked fine. You still get lots of the Chinese writing, but I get that with conversions to English when on taobao anyway. I notice it still translates to 'baby' which I think is the item /package/whatever.
Interesting that that have two lots of reels running at right angles.  No LCD like the other ones, but probably don't need it anyway, as it's all done on the PC.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: malawicarsten on August 07, 2014, 04:15:06 pm
Yes it almost makes sense what is translated.

The machine looks as if more time is spent on getting it to Mount with vision than designing
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: jimfackert on August 15, 2014, 11:05:28 pm
We have been contacted by a saleperson, and given this link. They make a number of models.... catalog and manuals are on line on click english in upper right....
sure is tempting!

neodentech is the manufacturer,  guess what the very common suffix is!

there are a bunch of utube videos too....
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: dougjackson on August 22, 2014, 04:00:52 am
Hi Everybody.

This is my first post here, but I have to say THANK YOU.  I own a small hobby business here in Australia making word clocks (dougswordclocks) - and this TM-240 was a game changer for me.  Your video demo was what I needed to decide to get one, and while it has its limitations, it is a wonderful product.

I have 3 standard boards, all double sided - ranging in size from 150mm x 150mm through to 270mm x 250mm, all surface mount, and using parts such as 0805 resistors, 3528 LEDs, 5050 LEDs, and 0.5mm pitch micros.  The most complex board (My color clock) has some 420 components on its face (140 LEDs, 140 resistors and 140 caps) and there was no way in the world that I would hand place that board....

Like others, I have developed a workflow where I place all of the components on the face of the clocks (LEDs and resistors / capacitors), reflow that, and then place 80% of the other parts on the back.  I don't bother placing the micro, or the driver chips (i still do that by hand) but that only takes about 30 seconds per board.  I am pleased to say that the machine paid for itself in the first 6 months of ownership, clear and simple.

The major issue has been associated with alignment, but like others, I place the first 5 components (in 4 corners, and the middle) to verify that the board is placed correctly, and it i go from there.  I have learnt to be careful with board layouts to make sure that parts are not too close to each other - that makes a significant difference to  the ability of the oven to allow parts to align correctly with surface tension.  Given the massive price difference between a unit with vision and this one, I am so happy I chose this one.

Thank you :-)

Now - while I remember, I use a cheap reflow oven (T-962) that was made significantly better using a new controller - I can't help but wonder if there is some enterprising individual who would like to replace the controller in this TM240 with a more capable controller that incorporated vision?    Just a thought!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sleepwalker3 on August 22, 2014, 10:11:36 am
Hi Doug, welcome to DP (AU here also). I'd be surprised if the Chinese aren't already working on one with Vision, but I think the controller that will likely be the thing that will show up the limitations. Good to hear it's gone well for your needs.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DevPete on August 22, 2014, 02:55:36 pm
@ dougjackson

Can you elaborate on the part spacing/alignment issue you mention, is this purely reflow/oven related or also pick and place machine related?

Thanks,

Peter
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: 2thick4uni on August 25, 2014, 09:23:47 pm
[quote author="malawicarsten"]Hi



As promised here are links:

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a23 ... 17462&ns=1 (http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.80.DYE6Qk&id=38641117462&ns=1)

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z ... 2640073277 (http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.1.w4004-5063167005.6.tIzzty&id=12640073277)



One of them have video picking up from a tray:
 
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTI5MzMyMDQ0.html (http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTI5MzMyMDQ0.html)

Don't know if they are same machine but different seller as Price is different and using Google translate from Chinese to English and then I have to try and figure something out when going for Danish...[/quote]

I found this on Aliexpress

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product ... 45084.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-Perfect-Desktop-Pick-and-Place-Machine-with-vision-PCB-Device-SMT-machine/1040040_1988545084.html)

Full vision, up to 36 tape feeders, runs under Win xp with both english and chinese software, all for $4900

The distributor / manufacturer is here;

http://www.hothotsmtmachine.com/e_produ ... 50-20.html (http://www.hothotsmtmachine.com/e_products/Latest-visual-positioning-pick-and-place-machine-SMT50-20.html)

They also seem to offer a beefed up version with ballscrews instead of toothed belts capable of placing 403 components for $6666.

http://www.hothotsmtmachine.com/e_produ ... 00-21.html (http://www.hothotsmtmachine.com/e_products/Industrial-screw-automatic-placement-machine-SMT600-21.html)

Not particularly fast but do seem to be able to work without camera too in similar way to TM220/TM240 and just use camera for smaller and trickier components. Looks like they use a pin on the head to advance the tape feed position which slows things down a bit. Very interesting machines, has anyone been brave enough to buy one?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: malawicarsten on August 26, 2014, 07:34:16 am
Hi

I have been "googling" a lot arround and those machines that hothotsmt sell is same I have posted to , but selling on taobao and that is a lot cheaper.

What I know is that a german guy have 3 models a SMT240A, SMT50 and TP01 and uses them for production
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Sleepwalker3 on August 26, 2014, 10:09:58 am
Interesting, but I hope they spend more on their machine than they do on their translators! Sure their English is a lot better than my Chinese, but it makes me wonder how it would be working through the details with software that is written in Chinglish or Englese.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: 2thick4uni on August 26, 2014, 10:42:37 am
[quote author="Sleepwalker3"]Interesting, but I hope they spend more on their machine than they do on their translators! Sure their English is a lot better than my Chinese, but it makes me wonder how it would be working through the details with software that is written in Chinglish or Englese.[/quote]

+1

That is why we need a really brave person here to buy one and get it up and running :-)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on August 26, 2014, 03:21:34 pm
Quote
What I know is that a german guy have 3 models a SMT240A, SMT50 and TP01 and uses them for production

I am the german guy I try to answer your questions.

Regards
Michael
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: 2thick4uni on August 26, 2014, 11:22:40 pm
[quote author="supertronic"]
Quote
What I know is that a german guy have 3 models a SMT240A, SMT50 and TP01 and uses them for production

I am the german guy I try to answer your questions.

Regards
Michael[/quote]

Wow, great! Here's a few questions for starters...

How good is the English version of the win xp software? Is it usable?

Is this machine much slower than the 240A when not using the camera and can you elect to use the camera only for certain components?

Does the "pin on head assembly" method of feeding the tapes work ok?

Does the camera work ok with the software?

I see that you are also developing the SMT700 machine featured in another thread here (which looks brilliant BTW), is this machine part of your project?

Many thanks!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on August 27, 2014, 07:59:14 am
Quote
How good is the English version of the win xp software? Is it usable?

The english software is usefull you can improve the translation by yourself because it use a translation file.
I have done my own translation for my new SMT700 machine which uses the same software.

It is possible to support more languages if you create more language files.

Quote
Is this machine much slower than the 240A when not using the camera and can you select to use the camera only for certain components?
The SMT50 is much slower when you use the camera because the adjustment process needs some time maybe 2s for each part.
One reason is the placement head has more weight but the machine runs much smoother without vibrations so you can place at the same speed more accurate.
You can choose for each component if you like to use the camera and which alignment procedure should be done.
Over all the SMT50 is faster because you don't need to realign the components.
I improved my SMT50 now using leadshine DSP stepper driver. Now the movement is smoother and there is no noise in standby.
I don't like the peel off mechanics and the reel handling on this machine.
My SMT700 improves this and you can change feeder blocks.

Quote
Does the "pin on head assembly" method of feeding the tapes work ok?
Yes it woorks good but you need to adjust each feeder line by yourself.
The advantage is the software support different feeder types so it is possible to pick up from trays or strips.

Quote
Does the camera work ok with the software?
Yes the camera works ok but I had some problems at the beginning my fiducial recognition won't work.
I improved the light and got a new software to get it up and running.
The SMT700 uses better cameras and a different illumination.

Quote
I see that you are also developing the SMT700 machine featured in another thread here (which looks brilliant BTW), is this machine part of your project?
Thank you for the compliments.
Yes I checked different machines on the market and use the SMT50 and TM240A for production.

By the way I want to sell me TM240A and the TP01 machine in Germany.
If anyone is interested please send me a mail.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: 2thick4uni on August 27, 2014, 11:41:50 pm
Many thanks for the reply Michael, very helpful.

Can you tell me what is the difference is between the TP01 and the SMT50 models? Do either of these have removable feeder cassettes instead of fixed feeders like the 220A/240A?

BTW Are you still on target with releasing your SMT700 before the end of this year?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on August 28, 2014, 07:29:24 am
Quote
Can you tell me what is the difference is between the TP01 and the SMT50 models?

The TP01 is a small cheap machine for hobbyist who want a machine using vision and mechanical alignment.
They use a special software running on windows build for this machine.
If you like to spent less money but want to have vision alignment and spend some time to adjust the machine this is the right choice.

I think the SMT50 is more professional it is more stable than TM240A and more precise than TP01.
But the motor drivers are noisy the complete machine needs adjustment for every position because there is no factory setup done.
It has 35 feeder lines and the option to put trays or custom feeder in the working area to pickup TQFP parts.
You can define the position and count in the software.
But the feeder handling is more complicted than TM240A feeder.

Quote
Do either of these have removable feeder
I don't know a machine below 10000$ supporting removeable feeders except my SMT700.

Quote
BTW Are you still on target with releasing your SMT700 before the end of this year?
I hope so we have some problems to find a good manufacturer in China.
If we do the production in Europe the price will rise up to 10000€.
There is a lot of work to do but I hope to build the best machine in this price range.

Regards
Michael
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: 2thick4uni on August 28, 2014, 10:39:03 am
Many thanks for your replies, very helpful. Just a few more questions if that's ok.....

With the SMT50 model they show pictures of the machine with an extra feeder bank on the back, but it isn't supplied with this as standard. Did you go for this option? Does this use the same method of feeding by using a pin on the nozzle head assembly? Any idea how much this rear feeder bank option costs and if it works ok? For my application I really need as many feeders as possible but would like to keep to one machine.

Does it use a downward camera or laser for fudicial alignment and is this tricky to set up?

How does the  peel off tape mechanism work on the SMT50, can't really see it in in detail on any of the photo's.

It looks like it also needs a compressed air supply? I'd guess that this is to create the pick up vacuum using a venturi? If so I'd guess it would be possible to replace this with a small vacuum pump to keep the noise levels down a bit.

I'm considering purchasing an SMT50 as a temporary solution until your SMT700 model is in production. The SMT700 ultimately seems the best solution for me as it has vision and extra feeder banks can be used with it, European support would be a huge benefit too....

Thanks,
Allan
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on August 28, 2014, 01:22:04 pm
Quote
With the SMT50 model they show pictures of the machine with an extra feeder bank on the back, but it isn't supplied with this as standard. Did you go for this option?
Yes I ordered the machine fully equipped

Quote
Does this use the same method of feeding by using a pin on the nozzle head assembly?
Yes the same drag feeder as on the left side

Quote
Any idea how much this rear feeder bank option costs and if it works ok?
I don't know the price difference you can ask sunny
http://http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-to-Europe-USA-by-DHL-2014-New-Perfect-Desktop-Pick-and-Place-Machine-with/1550683643.html
It works the same way like the left feeder bank but have different line sizes.
The left bank has 20 x 8mm lines.
Don't forget to order a tray for TQFP chips they made it from aluminium and it will cost about 120$.

Quote
Does it use a downward camera or laser for fudicial alignment and is this tricky to set up?
A down looking camera is used for fiducial recognition. It took some time to adjust the light but it works good.
You only need to add 2 positions on your board and check it using teach in function.
Finally a switch in the project options enables this function.

Quote
How does the peel off tape mechanism work on the SMT50
The tape is pulled by a roller which is driven for and back to release the tape on drag movement and pull it back after.
You don't need a spool the tape moves trough this mechanics.

Quote
It looks like it also needs a compressed air supply?
Yes a small airbrush compressor will do the job the vacuum is generated inside using venturi nozzle.
The noise level is ok.

But you need to change the stepper driver they produce the loudest noise if the machine is in standby and moving.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: 2thick4uni on August 28, 2014, 10:55:32 pm
Good to know that an airbrush compressor is sufficient, I already have one and it is very quiet indeed, so no need to fit vacuum pump :-)

When you replaced the stepper controllers did you just replace the controllers for the x axis and y axis or did you replace all of them? Are the stepper motors Nema17 or Nema23? Do you know which model of Leadshine DSP controllers that you fitted?

I have sent a message to Hothotsmt to get a price for the rear feeder assembly and will post the info when I get a reply. I wonder if there is also an essential spares kit for this model?

Do you know if Hothotsmt are the manufacturer or a reseller, just wondering why the SMT50 is considerably cheaper on Taobeo.com?  Lots of different sellers have the TM220A/240A models but very few seem to sell the SMT50.....

Allan
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: phangmoh on August 29, 2014, 04:34:49 am
Quote
just wondering why the SMT50 is considerably cheaper on Taobeo.com?
Taobao is basically for the local market in China. While Aliexpress is like the Chinese version of EBay.
So, there's some markup involved here on Aliexpress as they know people from outside of China only would buy them.
I buy stuff directly from Taobao but not expensive machine though. It hard as I depend heavily on Google translator a lot!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on August 29, 2014, 07:40:10 am
Hi Alan,

Quote
Do you know if Hothotsmt are the manufacturer or a reseller, just wondering why the SMT50 is considerably cheaper on Taobeo.com?
If you buy on Taobao the complete risk is on your side. You need to do the communication to fix the specification and send the money using wire transfer to the factory. No Paypal payment to secure. And maybe the machine price is not for the fully equipped machine.

Quote
When you replaced the stepper controllers did you just replace the controllers for the x axis and y axis or did you replace all of them? Are the stepper motors Nema17 or Nema23? Do you know which model of Leadshine DSP controllers that you fitted?
I used the DM556 controller for X,Y,drag motor west, drag motor north.

Quote
Lots of different sellers have the TM220A/240A models but very few seem to sell the SMT50
The manufacturer is a small company not like TM220/240A factory

The shipment costs to Europe are about 700USD don't forget to add. (Hothotsmt price is included)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: 2thick4uni on August 29, 2014, 02:56:02 pm
Thanks again Michael,

I've just had reply from Sunny at HotHotSmt, the rear feeder option costs $200 and can be configured either as [20 x 8mm tapes], or [10 x 8mm, 5 x 12mm, 2 x 16mm tapes]

Main side feeder holds 20 x 8mm, so capacity of the machine can be up to 40 x 8mm tapes, or 30x8mm, 5x12mm and 2x16mm tapes. In addition it will accept optional trays for TQFP which you mentioned earlier.
 
Certainly beats TM240A for number of component tapes it can handle.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: marcick on September 02, 2014, 09:09:59 am
Hallo.
Is there anywhere a video that show SMT50 in action ?
Seems impossible to find nothing but that awful picture.
Marco
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on September 02, 2014, 04:07:52 pm
Feel free to look here >>
http://i.youku.com/u/UNDMzNTE1NTEy/videos (http://i.youku.com/u/UNDMzNTE1NTEy/videos)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: marcick on September 03, 2014, 11:02:28 am
Thanks. It seems to me that the vision system is a great plus and make the SMT50 or TP01 a "better buy" respect to TM220/240.
Marco
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: MikeUK on September 18, 2014, 12:54:34 pm
Anyone have an email for hothotsmt as I've posted via their enquiry form but not received a reply.

Thanks, Mike.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on September 18, 2014, 09:44:38 pm
She had some mail problems please use sunny@smallsmt.com
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: MikeUK on September 19, 2014, 02:22:41 pm
Thanks
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Andy123 on October 01, 2014, 01:54:06 pm
Can somebody point me to the sample code or manual on how to use both heads at the same time?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on October 01, 2014, 07:53:32 pm
You only need to put a line for head one and two interleaving so the machine picks one then head two and places both.

1,1,12,64.88,4.26,0,0.50,0,R11,10R
2,2,17,71.66,65.55,0,1.70,0,C22,10uF/35V
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Radio7733 on November 10, 2014, 06:03:52 pm
Hi Micheal,

On the SMT50 you mentioned getting new software for the cameras? Could you share what you are using?

Do you know if this machine will place 0402s?

Thanks Dan
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on November 10, 2014, 09:07:54 pm
Hi Dan,
the software is now running well.
The nozzle changer has some tolerance so the accuracy maybe not good enough for 0402 parts.
But I need to test.
I think the 0402 parts will work but we show a new machine soon which could place 0402 well.
We use 2 placement heads using Samsung nozzles and two separate  push feeder on each side.
Stay tuned.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ideaman on November 11, 2014, 03:40:59 pm
Michael,

Your contribution to this topic has been very helpful!  I'm very interested in your SMT700 but I need something now-- I can't wait until next year.  So I'm planning to purchase an SMT50 in a few days, and I'm wondering about the learning curve.  Sunny referred me to the software tutorial videos on YOUKU but they are all in Chinese, so not much help.  Is the software fairly intuitive to use for someone who has never used a pick and place machine before?  The TM240 videos are a lot better, but I want vision alignment and PC control (as opposed to embedded control) so that's why I'm considering the SMT50...

Carl
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: timw on November 13, 2014, 02:01:41 am
I'm the proud owner of an SMT50 which arrived a few days ago. Gradually working my way up the learning curve which is definitely quite steep. That's okay - never expected it would be otherwise. I've been doing quite a bit of translation of the software, adding missing strings and improving some of the translations already there. I don't speak Mandarin unfortunately but Bing Translate is my friend. I will start to publish these changes on GitHub soon and will post a link when I do.

As for the videos - they're all in Mandarin and demo the software also using Mandarin. While I think I can work it all out without actually understanding what's said, I'm going to get them transcribed into English (hopefully not too costly) and publish that info too. Not sure how long that bit will take. Stay tuned.

In the meantime, very interested in what other people have experience with this machine.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: timw on November 13, 2014, 02:19:55 am
Putting relevant info here: https://github.com/aanon4/SMT50 (https://github.com/aanon4/SMT50)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ideaman on November 13, 2014, 05:54:13 pm
Does anyone have experience with the CHMT36 from Charmhigh CNC ($4,380 on AliExpress)?  They claim it is an upgraded version of the TM240A.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Andy123 on November 13, 2014, 08:07:46 pm
[quote author="ideaman"]Does anyone have experience with the CHMT36 from Charmhigh CNC ($4,380 on AliExpress)?  They claim it is an upgraded version of the TM240A.[/quote]

CHMT36 review is no good:
viewtopic.php?f=68&t=6772 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=6772)

I was going to buy it, but ended up getting TM240A
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ideaman on November 20, 2014, 09:16:02 pm
@Andy123:  thanks for steering me clear of the CHMT36.  I have a feeling the takeup reel problem he encountered could be solved with some fiddling, but I didn't want to take a chance.

@Tim:  I've taken the plunge and ordered an SMT50 after considering all of the input from you and Michael--  thanks!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: timw on November 21, 2014, 03:45:23 am
@ideaman - jolly good. I'll keep posting to my blog as I work with mine. Will be very interested in your experiences.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ideaman on November 21, 2014, 02:29:34 pm
I'm a little confused about the camera and tray options for the SMT50.  Does it come with one camera, and a second (upward-looking) camera is optional?  Does it come with one tray and a second tray is optional?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Andy123 on November 21, 2014, 05:40:54 pm
I just got TM240A directly from Neoden.
I was able to get first run in couple hours and it looks like solid machine.

But I am still getting a lot of dropped and misaligned parts that I have to figure out.

My main concern is that it only have 21 8mm tapes.
Changing tapes is a pain, but keeping multiple jobs is not possible because of it has very limited number of tapes.
I am considering to sell it as soon as I see a reliable replacer machine with 50+ tapes.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on December 01, 2014, 03:06:56 pm
Quote
I'm a little confused about the camera and tray options for the SMT50. Does it come with one camera, and a second (upward-looking) camera is optional? Does it come with one tray and a second tray is optional?

The system has as default two cameras on top and one bottom camera.
You can add es second bottom camera having a different focal length ( magnification).


Regards
Michael
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: 2thick4uni on December 02, 2014, 10:33:45 am
I am about to buy an SMT50 machine from HotHotSMT and have a couple of questions on it regarding the supplied software. I'm brand new to pick and place machines, we have been hand placing components on our boards  and this would be a huge step forward for us.

So, a few questions for supertronic and timw (or any other SMT50 users here)

1 - Does the supplied software have to run in win xp? Or would win 7 be better?

2 - I have very limited programming skills so I'm not really able to hack the software, can it be used as is?

3 - I designed our pcb's and boards gerber's in Cadsoft Eagle, can we produce pick and place files that can be used with the SMT50 software? I'm looking at using mountsmd.ulp to generate component place date from Eagle - can I import this data directly to the software  or will it need lots of editing before or afterwards?

4 - I've had a look at translation files kindly provided on github by timw, do I just replace the relevant .ini files in the software with these and it improves the english translations from chinese?

Thanks in advance for any replies!
Allan
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on December 02, 2014, 05:17:37 pm
1 - Does the supplied software have to run in win xp? Or would win 7 be better?
Windows 7 ultimate should be fine XP is ok

2 - I have very limited programming skills so I'm not really able to hack the software, can it be used as is?
The software runs at it is but you need some time to learn

3 - I designed our pcb's and boards gerber's in Cadsoft Eagle, can we produce pick and place files that can be used with the SMT50 software? I'm looking at using mountsmd.ulp to generate component place date from Eagle - can I import this data directly to the software or will it need lots of editing before or afterwards?

Tim did an Eagle export script please look on his site

4 - I've had a look at translation files kindly provided on github by timw, do I just replace the relevant .ini files in the software with these and it improves the english translations from chinese?

The files where copied in the language folders and selected in the software no problem!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: 2thick4uni on December 03, 2014, 04:59:36 pm
Many thanks for the reply Michael, very helpful :-)

I'll keep a watch for your SMT700 with 60 feeder lanes coming onto the market - I think that that suits our needs perfectly but the SMT50 should do the job for us until then.

cheers,
Allan
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tonnyneoden on December 06, 2014, 10:10:59 am
Hello All,
In order to celebrate the Christmas and New Year,now Neoden Tech has a big Promotion for the machines,can contact us for the details,thank you for your continuous support on our machines.       

Merry Christmas  and Happy New Year.                      ---Tonny
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: phangmoh on February 09, 2015, 02:05:41 am
Have anyone bought the newer version of the machine, TM245P (http://http://neodentech.com/bbx/996360-996360.html?id=26798&pid=1905960)?

It has more feeders, vibration feeders, faster, and tray support.
No vision still but they have a "correction" approach using a square looking guide thing at one corner.
But, more expensive than the TM240A unfortunately.
This is very tempting especially with the vibration feeders support (for us poor fags that can't afford a full reel of expensive IC).
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: johndude on February 18, 2015, 03:28:25 pm
If you are interested in these machine and some newer models that are available, drop by the store at www[dot]neoden[dot]eu and I will be happy to help you out.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: GEORGE on February 22, 2015, 02:29:31 pm
Hi phangmoh,
Iam a proud owner of the TM245P advanced machine. Also I am using the TM240 machines , 2 nos.
TM245P is a Beast in the desktop PNP class , a massive sturdy machine  with a lot many highlights, have a 50 sets of feeders, including a 24mm ,also have the vibration feeder for various tube parts, mostly the High watt Dome LEDs are available in the tube packing form.
a very intelligent feature of the machine we like is the auto-synchronizing function, which makes the machine to retrace its path, when any obstruction happens while on functioning , you can get the video from steven <steven@neodentech.com>
Next highlight is the PCB area, can mount PCB on any part of the PCB placement area, no restriction of being mounted to one corner or so. Equipped with high power magnetic strip to mount the PCB.
This beautiful machine works @ 10,000 CPH with at most accuracy with a Pickup height of 5mm.  A wide 7 inch color screen  and various functions like the built-in pressure sensor readings displayed on screen  makes the user to check the proper functioning of the vacuum pump any time of operation.
The firmware of the machine is a very well built to  avoid any  glitches  and bugs, moreover the machine is put into the international market after passing  8000hours of rigorous testing in the very versatile Domestic market.
Finally concluding I need to say that TM245P scores to 10/10 points .no doubt it will be a real investment for the user as it is Built by Neoden, who is the only master in Desktop PNP machines, TM245P is a master piece of Neoden. I congratulate the Team for their hard work and dedication in bringing such a good quality machine to the International SMT market.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on February 23, 2015, 01:51:06 pm
But don't forget the NEODEN Machine has no vision system to align complex parts and the feeder system is fixed.

Maybe a perfect solution to place a lot of 0603 chips.

No way for TQFP and QFN chips Neoden can post some placement results to proof.
I know TM240 machine and it's limits too.
Very fast and a good solution for simple parts.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: phangmoh on February 24, 2015, 04:07:49 am
Quote
No way for TQFP and QFN chips Neoden can post some placement results to proof.
I'll be heading to their Shenzhen's office to check this out. Their machine build looks pretty solid to be frank.
And I hope I can take a look at Sunny's machine too in the same trip but have to check whether they have any office in Shenzhen as a start.

I really like the vibration feeder option on the TM245P and the number of feeders is just generous.
At the same time, SMT50, SMT600, and SMT550D has vision but very limited number of feeders and also smaller maximum PCB area.
I guess checking them out in real life will help me to decide.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: GEORGE on February 24, 2015, 05:43:39 am
I told my experience, i have a board with 3nos of 100 pin qfp ICs and a qfn, since a month and so, i already assembled around 450 boards of the same without any issue.
also TM245P -ADV is not TM240. is a much more  improved one with multi-point sensor system with complete closed loop feedback and have a mechanical alignment system for the QFP ics. you can ask for a video from Neoden.
there are few companies in china copied the Neoden 240 and 220 machines  attaching some cameras and claiming it as vision system, is a real blunder, i personally seen and verified those, they are using some Android app with a CMOS camera, no co-relation with the original firmware. which makes to function in an odd manner sometime.if not serious production house  and just looking for play with some Pick and Place machines as a hobby, those are well suited .


[quote author="supertronic"]But don't forget the NEODEN Machine has no vision system to align complex parts and the feeder system is fixed.

Maybe a perfect solution to place a lot of 0603 chips.

No way for TQFP and QFN chips Neoden can post some placement results to proof.
I know TM240 machine and it's limits too.
Very fast and a good solution for simple parts.[/quote]
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on February 24, 2015, 01:18:58 pm
Hi George,
do you have any problems using plastic tapes (for diodes and bigger parst) on your TM245 machine?

Could you please show us a picture of your board after placement I am expecting to see the results for the QFP ic's.

How much did you payed for the TM245 machine?

Thank you for your valuable information.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: GEORGE on February 27, 2015, 04:29:56 am
Hi,
The Feeder system is well improved in TM245 , is a buit-in motor system for each spool to release the plastic tape from the reel, so absolutely no issue in peeling off.
find my TQFP IC placement using TM245P.is a perfect placement , we produced more than 22 batches and tested the boards, is all functioning fine.
rgds
George
[quote author="supertronic"]Hi George,
do you have any problems using plastic tapes (for diodes and bigger parst) on your TM245 machine?

Could you please show us a picture of your board after placement I am expecting to see the results for the QFP ic's.

How much did you payed for the TM245 machine?

Thank you for your valuable information.[/quote]
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: royco on March 12, 2015, 07:04:09 am
I have a TM240 machine that I have not used much since moving production overseas. If anyone is interested in buying please PM me. Pick up only in Southern California. I really wanted to have in house pick and place but I dont get to use it really so it's basically new.

Not sure if I can post this here, feel free to remove if inappropriate.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: miketedeschi on March 16, 2015, 02:32:18 pm
I just purchased the TM245p, awaiting delivery.  It was $6500, then another $800 for shipping to the USA, DHL 2-5 day.  I'm going to to a full review with pictures and video.  I have a copy of the instruction manual, and the English is pretty poor.  I will probably add to the document for my own future reference and send NeoDen a copy my notes.

Royco, I would have been interested in the TM240, but the improvements found in the TM245p were too valuable to pass up.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: aceeeco on March 20, 2015, 05:55:45 pm
Miketedeschi, I'd really love to hear how your experience with the TM245p is going.

I have some money to spend to get equipment for my lab and a pick and place would be amazing to have. I've had my eye on the TM240 for a while but heard about the TM245 and  I was really excited
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: nikolx on March 26, 2015, 08:49:04 pm
I too am looking at the TM245P. The TM240 piqued my interest and the TM245P upgrades seem significant. The number of feeders is a real plus. Also, I like the centering square well they use and the flexible board mounting system. George, thanks for you thoughts on the TM245P. Miketedeschi or anyone else who owns one, any first thoughts would be appreciated!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: phangmoh on March 27, 2015, 08:58:43 am
I'm also looking at the TM245P and SMT50. The differences between them that is apparent is the vision system, number of feeders, price (quite a difference!), automatic nozzle-changing and vibration feeders.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tonnyneoden on April 01, 2015, 11:26:34 am
Hello Everyone,
My name is Tonny from Neoden Tech,we are the real manufacturer of TM220A/240A/245P,welcome to visit
our store and see the real machine in SEG Market(Shenzhen).
Any problems in using or other matters,you can feel free contact us:
my skype:tonny-neoden
Thank you for your support on Neoden Tech's products.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: vinzer on April 02, 2015, 03:26:58 am
Hello everyone!
We also just recently got a TM245 machine from NeoDen. Have not yet installed it but will do next few days.
At present we use TM240A machine which is really good machine. So far we assembled about 200pcs of PCB on it (since February when we got it). The only disadvantage for us is a limitation in 8mm feeders. This is why we got newer model where we have more feeders.
By the way if anyone need TM240A with pickup in Quebec Canada - you are more then welcome.

I will also put some review of newer model here once we put at least 10-20pcs of PCB batch so I may compare between models.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: GEORGE on April 04, 2015, 07:50:05 am
[quote author="tonnyneoden"]Hello Everyone,
My name is Tonny from Neoden Tech,we are the real manufacturer of TM220A/240A/245P,welcome to visit
our store and see the real machine in SEG Market(Shenzhen).
Any problems in using or other matters,you can feel free contact us:
my skype:tonny-neoden
Thank you for your support on Neoden Tech's products.[/quote]

Hi Tonny
could you please put your store number at sega and which floor  and also will be grateful if you can put a picture of the store and give some guidance to reach the store?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tonnyneoden on April 04, 2015, 05:37:14 pm
Hello Geroge,
Thank you for your continuous support on Neoden Tech's machines.

Our store info at SEG Market is show as below:
NeoDen Technology Corp. LTD -- Shenzhen SEG Store
Address:1D010 Store,No.1 Gate,SEG Electronics Market,Huaqiangbei,Futian District,Shenzhen

If anyone who have interst to see the demo machines,pls feel free visit this store.The store is located
at Huaqiangbei-a very famous area in Shenzhen for Electronic Products.

If need more help,can feel free add my Skype as contact:
tonny-neoden

Hope our machines can help you a lot in your working always.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on April 04, 2015, 11:51:02 pm
Hi Tonny,
could you please answer some TM245 related questions:
1. How can I upgrade the machine operating system
2. Do you use servo drives
3. How can I align components like TQFP IC
4. If I want to place 0.5mm pitch parts is it possible to do precisely
5. How can I adjust the pcb zero point
6. Is it possible to use ther laser cross to adjust the pickup positions
7. How can I define tray feeder in the working area
8. what's your strategy to align simple parts like 0603 0r 0402 resistors and capacitors need for HF designs
9. If the machine fails to pickup or drag a feeder how can I solve the problem and restart at the last good position
10. Is there an option to disable some pcb in a panel design if the panel has some defect pcb's I don't want to use?

Waiting for your reply
Thank you
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tonnyneoden on April 06, 2015, 06:40:08 am
Hello Sir,
Thank you for your support on our machines.
1.Our new machine TM245P had been sold for almost one year,so now it can run very stable,
the operation system is newest already,so it won't influence your daily using even don't do upgrade.
2.We use Step Motor in TM245P,for main parts(belt and axis were import from Japan and USA,so can ensure running accuracy always).Our engineers developed a new function which can help avoid step lose(a sensor will read the siginal always,once met step lose,will automatic adjust back to normal status).
3.We have one function called"Mechanical correction Device",which can help ensure the mounting accuracy for TQFP ICs.
4.for 0.5 pitch IC,you need consider to open the function-Mechanical correction Device
5.We have a Mechanical zero point on our machine,you also can use the function"#Circuit",which can help match all the coordinates of your PCB file to our machines.
6.Feel so sorry that you need judge the pick up position by your eyes,can't use cross-laser,which also can very easy to operate
7.As for ICs which packed by Tube or Tray,all belong to special stack/feeder(range from 90 to 99).For ICs which packed by Tray,you need insert the ICs'size,the distance between two ICs,the numbers of IC you have put in X/Y Direction
8.Sorry,what's the correct meaning of "HF Desingers" ?
9.Our machine have "Vacuum Inspection functions",once met  failed picking,our machine will picked again for three times,if still faild,the machine will stop work and beeping.If the machine can't drag the tape,you just only need adjust the needle position.Our mahcine can start continue work at any components you like.
10.Yes,our machine can be set to skip one jointed board you don't want to do mounting work.

Pls first view the videos of our machines on youtube,then you will know more:
www.youtube.com/user/NeoDentech (http://www.youtube.com/user/NeoDentech)

Pls add my Skype "tonny-neoden" and then I will send a User Manual of TM245P for your reference.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: miketedeschi on April 06, 2015, 02:43:19 pm
[quote author="aceeeco"]Miketedeschi, I'd really love to hear how your experience with the TM245p is going.

I have some money to spend to get equipment for my lab and a pick and place would be amazing to have. I've had my eye on the TM240 for a while but heard about the TM245 and  I was really excited[/quote]

So far it's a great machine.  I have made about 200 boards, 47 components per board.  Not having to change reels has to be a real time-saver, but this is my first pick & place machine.

I programmed the boards using the laser cross-hairs manually since the eagle ULP scripts haven't been updated yet, plus i thought it would be valuable to know how to program the machine without a computer. It was pretty easy considering I have no prior experience.  I have only had the machine for like 2 weeks...

Here is a video on youtube of it running from 2 camera angles.  I am going to write a full review, I just have been too busy making boards.

http://https://youtu.be/24L53YlnrxA

(http://http://largewire.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/MVI_4852.MOV_snapshot_00.30_2015.03.31_20.40.492-690x227.jpg)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: solardude on April 18, 2015, 07:36:02 am
miketedeschi the machine looks really good! And based on the 2 short reviews I've seen here it sounds like its working pretty good also.

Have you ran the machine any more since you shot these videos?

I think the way the machine uses the trays to straighten the parts is pretty unique also.

Thanks for sharing the video and review.

GEORGE , do you have any new stories about the machine after running it more since your wrote your last review here?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: nikolx on April 18, 2015, 07:57:49 am
Thanks miketedeschi for the info, and especially for the video! Glad to hear your experience has been positive, it looks pretty good. Will be interested in your full review, especially if the placement accuracy seems accurate and repeatable, and how small your smallest components are.

Hi Tonny, the companies listed at the end of the latest TM245P promo video, including "IBM", "Embraer" and "Honeywell", does this mean these companies use the TM245P?

Looks like the mechanical centering has been around for quite a while, just the high-end machines now have vision. Check out this old video at 3:02 to see the centering: http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkXnwqezz0E
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tonnyneoden on April 20, 2015, 04:37:01 am
Hello Nikolx,
The companies you said above"IBM","Embraer"and"Honeywell"are our customers,they have bought our PNP Machine(TM240A/245P) in order to do sample PCBs and Research.
As you also know that our machine is very suitable to do sample PCBs,Research,Small production Line as it's low cost.

The function"Mechanical Centering",of course it will take some more time as in order to ensure the accuracy of mounting like big ICs.But for small components(like 0603,0805),no need use this function-you just need ensure the pick place is at the center of the
components,then our machine can mount correct.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: vrasak on May 25, 2015, 01:47:13 am
[quote author="GEORGE"]Hi phangmoh,
Iam a proud owner of the TM245P advanced machine. Also I am using the TM240 machines , 2 nos.
TM245P is a Beast in the desktop PNP class , a massive sturdy machine  with a lot many highlights, have a 50 sets of feeders, including a 24mm ,also have the vibration feeder for various tube parts, mostly the High watt Dome LEDs are available in the tube packing form.
a very intelligent feature of the machine we like is the auto-synchronizing function, which makes the machine to retrace its path, when any obstruction happens while on functioning , you can get the video from steven
Next highlight is the PCB area, can mount PCB on any part of the PCB placement area, no restriction of being mounted to one corner or so. Equipped with high power magnetic strip to mount the PCB.
This beautiful machine works @ 10,000 CPH with at most accuracy with a Pickup height of 5mm.  A wide 7 inch color screen  and various functions like the built-in pressure sensor readings displayed on screen  makes the user to check the proper functioning of the vacuum pump any time of operation.
The firmware of the machine is a very well built to  avoid any  glitches  and bugs, moreover the machine is put into the international market after passing  8000hours of rigorous testing in the very versatile Domestic market.
Finally concluding I need to say that TM245P scores to 10/10 points .no doubt it will be a real investment for the user as it is Built by Neoden, who is the only master in Desktop PNP machines, TM245P is a master piece of Neoden. I congratulate the Team for their hard work and dedication in bringing such a good quality machine to the International SMT market.[/quote]

Hi there,

It is very interesting product, currently I can't find person to do hand PnP for me.
After wondering around to find a good PnP for the first time, I'm sure to have this model. Thank you GEORGE for your writing.

Weerasak.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tueftlerwork on June 24, 2015, 02:23:50 pm
Hi there.

Last week we received our new TM245P.
Now i have set up all the stuff to place the first PCBs.

But there're one problem.
I'm using the Eagle .ulp to export the board data in the required .csv .
Our machine have two feeder stations; One on the left side, and one behind the machine.
Now, the problem is, that the feeders behind the machine should be rotated internal with -90°.
If we make an export, eagle means our feeders are on the left side - so a MiniMelf package is orientated in the Y-Axis.
But if this device is in the other stack, behind the machine, these MiniMelf should be rotated in 90° by itself.

I couldn't find any general rotation with which i can fix that issue...
Is there anybody with a great idea in it?

Greetings, Bjoern
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tonnyneoden on June 26, 2015, 10:20:42 am
Hello Bjoern,
This is Tonny from Neoden Tech.

For your below problem,you can try to adjust the angle info for all feeders at back side by manual.
Adjust all angles for back feeders means when you finished programing the working file(.csv),you can
use the Office Software(Excel) to open the file on your computer,then add 90 degree for all components
which put at back stacks/feeders.

The another way is that pls check your SD Card,you will find one software named "Stack Management Tool",this
tool can be used to arrange the components to feeders/stacks.This software will help automatic calculate the angle
info for all feeders not only left but also back side.You can read page 15 on the User Manual for your reference.

Hope above info can help you.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: haimi on July 08, 2015, 03:47:03 am
This is Haimi from Neoden.
Glad to know there are many people interested in our pnp machine.We have sell a lot to many different overseas countries,and many customer are very happy with it and some of them are willing to share their experience with others.
If you are from USA,we have find a lot reference there and you can talk with them to know more comments from end users.

Any question,you can also send e-mail to me directly or add my skype for online talk.

E-mail:haimi@neodentech.com

Skype:haimi2008
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: haimi on July 08, 2015, 07:00:56 am
[quote author="2thick4uni"]

Do you know if Hothotsmt are the manufacturer or a reseller, just wondering why the SMT50 is considerably cheaper on Taobeo.com?  Lots of different sellers have the TM220A/240A models but very few seem to sell the SMT50.....

Allan[/quote]

Hi Allan,
Hope you already clear your doubts and get your pnp machine from hothotsmt,but we just want to clarify some factors here to help other customers know more well about this market.

1.There are some similar machine in China include SMT50,but NeoDen products are more popular both overseas and domestic markets.

NeoDen has 8 overseas agents now,they do a lot compare and market test before cooperate with Neoden,to ensure better local service and prompt response for local end users.And their order keep increasing every month.

2.Price different from aliexpress and taobao.

The price on aliexpress include 5% of total amount as aliexpress service charge,and include shipping.

Taobao,no service charge.And just include local shipping(within China mainland).
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on July 09, 2015, 09:50:48 am
Dear Haimi,

first of all not all Chinese machines are copies of your machine.
The only 2 I know are CHMT36 and the TVM802B. These machines have the same technology for feeder construction and drag mechanics.

TVM802B:
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/tvm802b.jpg)

So why don't you punish Whenzou Yingxing Import&Export  the reseller of this copy machine?

And don't forget the technologies you use are invented in Germany in the late 70's so you copied these methods too. (because patents protection runs out here)
But finally you copied the tape trough feeder mechanics too from other manufacturers. (yes you have a patented motor design)

You stopped hothotsmt on Aliexpress because of allways bad and unfair chinese business to stop resellers of your machine.
The SMT50 and SMT500D are stopped too but they have different design.
We will sell our VP-2000 and VP-2500 starting in 08.2015 in Europe and China too!

I think the comparsion of all the machines availiabe on the market will show neoden machines are good machines but the technology is limited and the really important things are not improved until now!

Your drag mechanics and feeder design is not precise enough to place small components without alignment. Even the TMP245 is not able to adjust parts smaller than 2x2mm square. The vibration problems of TM240 machines is now solved in TMP245 and it is impressive to see the mounting speed and accuracy placing big parts using mechanical alignment.  Nice feature is the swinging motor on every tape feeder line to move only the adressed tape. And the user defined north feeder is nice too. I think your new machines are well constructed and you don't need unfair methods to protect.


Here is a placement result of TMP245 done in the neoden office in Hangzhou:
you can clearly see the alignment problems because not all parts are precise in the middle of a tape pocket.
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/TMP245placement.jpg)

To compare here is the result of my TM240:
(http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/DSCN1089.JPG)


So finally I think neoden should be more open and don't try to control the market.

UPDATE:

Hardware:
The TMP245 is a stepper motor driven machine but has some nice things to improve accuracy like continous index gaps on each axis to have more reference points. It's very fast and has some mounting points to fix the machine on the table.
I think the resistive touch panel is not precise enough for user input.
The PCB fixture is done by magnetic plates and pins on the working area. No feature to adjust the Zero point of the PCB before placement it need to be mechanical aligned or placement file need to be edited.
One disadvantage is the nozzle can't be rotated by 360 degrees only +/-180 so the part can't be continous rotated while axis movement to compensate the force moving the component under the nozzle while axis movement.

Software:
Some nice Software features are now embedded you can disable board placement for each board in a panel.
It is possible to enable mechanical alignment for parts bigger than 2x2mm by entering X and Y size of the component and enabling alignment function.
No import function for popular PNP file formats you need to import using PC software to build a compatible file.
You can start placement at every component number.

Drag mechanics:
I dislike the drag mechanics done by a simple solenoid like TM240 machine you have a lot of tolerances in X and Y direction while dragging. The pin has no precise guiding.
One advantage is the machine can pick up two parts on a single drag operation.

Adjustment:
You need to adjust the component pick up position without laser guide same problem on TM240. Everbody can imagine how precise this is.
A vision based machine use the top camera to do.
You can use the cross laser pointer to adjust and check every position inside working area.

Feeder:
Cool design for tape forwarding a single motor for each tape can be driven to pull the tape.
It's mounted on a profile and fixed by a screw. Easy to mount using a single screw.
The vibration feeder are a big advantage too.
But the price increases a lot if you add north feeder and vibration feeder.
 


Best regards
Michael
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: 2thick4uni on July 09, 2015, 11:26:19 am
Dear Haimi,

For some reason you replied to a message that I posted many months ago, before I bought my pick and place machine.

I have since bought an SMT50 machine from Sunny at HotHotSMT, it is a great machine and I am very satisfied with it. I do not care if they are the manufacturer or a reseller, it is a well built machine and the company support is very good.

I do not like the fact that you are trying to discredit HotHotSMT by inferring that the SMT50 is a copy of your TM240A. This is not the case - it has considerably more feeders, a different form factor, a vision system and external Windows software.

HotHotSMT have provided an excellent machine and excellent service to me.

As you seem to be trying to stop them from selling their full range of pick and place machines I will ensure that I never buy any Neoden products as I cannot condone your business practices.


Regards,
Allan
Satisfied HotHotSMT Customer
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sunny1 on July 09, 2015, 04:54:45 pm
Dear Allan from UK, dear Michael from Germany, dear Tim from USA and dear our customers & friends,

I'm Sunny from http://www.hothotsmtmachine.com (http://www.hothotsmtmachine.com)

At the beginning, we just read the message here and don't send anthing. Because this post link is from Neoden company and it's ONLY for pick and place machine technology discussion...But we find that it's becoming Neoden is using the Dangerous to beat & slander other competitors. That is so bad.

We never say Neoden machine is bad and we sold their machine before. But finally, they do the oversea market by themselves after they grow up enough and try to control the whold market use every kind of methods that is we can't control and we dislike to do the same too.

From here, we only want to say
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: DjMcMarkus on July 09, 2015, 09:39:45 pm
Dear Haimi,

I´m a customer of a SMT50 from HotHotSMT too and I totally agree Allan about the good quality of the machine and the great service of HotHotSMT!

I think you can ruin the reputation of  Neoden quite fast if you try to bring the things together in an unfair way!

It took me a long time to find the right SMT machine for my requirements and financial budget and I nearly bought your TMP245 too, but I am convinced too that it is a good idea to have an optical part recognition for the correct placement of SMTs before placing them to the PCB.
By the way - I´m a professional hardware and software development engineer since about 30 years now and I formerly was working for a German company called Siemens in their development team when they manufactured their well known SiPlace PickAndPlace machines. So I know quite well what is neccessary to make a good placement. Neoden's machines are definitely not bad, but they missed until now to implement a working vision system. Instead you try it on a mechanical adjustment way - that seems to be pretty precise and quite useful.
But it is not fair when you call other manufacturers vision systems "fake" just because you are not selling a machine with a vision system. Maybe some are kind of fake, but not all...
So, Haimi, I hope you can see if you try to start a battle in this forum there is the chance that things go in the wrong direction.
Let´s stay in peace and do fair arguments here, please;-)


Thx and best regards,
Markus,
also a satisfied HotHotSMT customer
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: sunny1 on July 10, 2015, 01:02:04 pm
Hi, dear Markus,

Danke~

BR,

Sunny
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: GEORGE on July 11, 2015, 10:51:03 am
Oh God, whats happening here,
has become a Trade Zone here?
Cat fights?
Rgds
George
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on July 11, 2015, 04:11:42 pm
Hi George,
this is a trading zone here ;)
Quote
Hello Everyone, My name is Tonny from Neoden Tech

Do you like to be George or Tonny ?

Best regards
Michael
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: hansknec on July 19, 2015, 11:24:33 pm
Brand new to the forum.  Just ordered the TM-240A, because I can't afford much more and my needs are small.  Would be interested to see if there is motivation to build an aftermarket attachment that can add one or more vibrational feeders to the TM-220A and TM-240A.  It doesn't seem like it would be rocket science.  For that matter, is it possible for me to also add bulk IC trays in the areas of the TM-240A that are not in use?  Is the program flexible enough to be told to "pick up" from just about anywhere within the reach of the XY stage?

John
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tonnyneoden on July 20, 2015, 07:11:47 am
Hello John,
Kindly note TM220A/240A can't support add vibration feeders,our third generation-TM245P have this new function,which used to pick
Ics from Tube package.
For your current requirements,you can consider to put big Ics on the Front Stack(Stack 0).Note:The Ics need to be put in one same position on the plate(stand closely to four right-angles).
TM220A/240A can't support pick components at anywhere you said(except the left stacks and front stack),but TM245P can.

If need any further support,pls feel free ask the supplier,tks.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on July 20, 2015, 10:44:14 am
Hello John,
the current TM220A/240A has no option to define a user defined feeder. (and you can't update the operating system!)
The pockets in front are sequential addressed by the machine and you need a constant pick up position to do a custom vibration feeder. Second problem is to have a signal to switch the vibration motor on and of if a part was picked from the feeder.
But the best solution is to buy a TM245P as Tonny introduced.

Best regards
Michael
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: hansknec on July 20, 2015, 01:40:56 pm
So an aftermarket vibrational feeder could be put in the front stack if it were designed with and optical switch to detect the absence of a part in the final slot, or if it just vibrated all the time.  I wish I could have afforded the newest unit, but I had to stretch my budget to get the TM-240A instead of the TM-220A.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on July 20, 2015, 02:10:09 pm
There is one problem the machine take the first part from pocket 1 then 2 ... so you can't access only pocket 1.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: hansknec on July 20, 2015, 03:17:03 pm
Oh well.  I'll live with manual placement since I need to stand by the machine anyway to load and unload the boards.  This machine is going to save me hundreds of hours per year!  I'm excited, even though I am not buying the latest and greatest!
I do have a small concern.  When I view videos on YouTube, it sometimes shows a model 240a that doesn't have the front bulk chip bins.  I pray my unit will have them.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tonnyneoden on July 22, 2015, 07:11:52 am
Hello John,
The main differences between TM220A and TM240A are show as below:
1.TM220A's max applicable size:200*220mm  TM240A:360*400mm
2.TM220A have 15 feeders,TM240A have 27 feeders

But both two models(TM220A/240A) have front bulk chip bins(Front IC Stack),tks.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on July 22, 2015, 12:49:53 pm
Hi ,

today I found a very interesting article "Next generation NeoDen pick and place machine"

http://http://paxinstruments.com/next-generation-neoden-pick-and-place-machine/

Image is from Paxinstruments
(http://http://paxinstruments.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/ningbo-1-1.jpg)


The new Neoden machine having vision system congratulations.

Best Regards
Michael
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: alexandru on July 27, 2015, 08:57:17 am
Probably it will cost more than $6k
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on July 27, 2015, 02:13:08 pm
I heared more than $10000 but has 4 heads vision and a lot of feeders.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: flangefrog on November 01, 2015, 09:46:44 am
I received a quote. Price is $6499, or $7499 with internal conveyer. There is a YouTube video which while very funny ("This is definitely what you want! I assure") gives a good overview of the features. The nice looking base is also available for $199.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=4P7DDSTXIQo (https://youtube.com/watch?v=4P7DDSTXIQo)

Number of Heads with Vision enabled:4
Placement Rate:10000PCS/H (vision off)    5000PCS/H (vision on)
Feeder Capacity:Tape Reel Feeders:48  Vibration Feeders:5
Tape width: 8mm, 12mm, 16mm,24mm                                                                                                                                                                                          IC Tray Capacity:5
Component sizes with vision:Smallest Component  size:0201  Largest Component size:TQFP240
Applicable Components:0201,BGA,SOIC,SSOP,QFN,TQFP,Led Component,Diode,Triode,Tack Switch                                                                                                                                    Component Height Maximum:5mm
Resolution X/Y axis:0.01mm  Z axis:0.1mm
Rotation:+/-180(360)
Positioning Accuracy:+/-0.02mm
X-Y repeatability:+/-0.02mm
Applicable PCB area:350mm*400mm (no conveyer)
Applicable PCB area:310mm*1500mm (conveyer)
Placement Area:310*1500mm(without waffle Tray)    140*1500mm(With 1 waffle Tray)
Programming:SOFTWARE AUTOMATIC PROGRAMMING/MANUAL MECHANICAL PROGRAMMING
Main Control:GUI
Power Supply:220V, 50Hz (convertible to 110V)
Power:180W
External Dimensions:Machine:87*68*48CM                                                                                                                                                                                              Packing size:94*74*60CM
Net Weight:60KGS
Gross weight:80Kgs
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on November 01, 2015, 08:09:48 pm
Thank's for the information!

Are the feeders included?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: flangefrog on November 02, 2015, 06:47:43 am
It appears that only the vibration feeder is included. The Neoden4 comes with these items:

1) Pick and Place Machine Neoden 4: 1
2) Nozzle: Totally 6(0.7mm=2, 1.4mm=2:3 4.0mm=1,7.0mm=1)
3) 8G SD Card: 1
4) SD Card reader: 1
5) Power Cord: 1
6) Nozzle cleaning tool: 1
7) Video training course: 1
8) Double Sided Adhesive Tape: 2
9)Allen wrench Set:5
10)Tool Box:1
11)Reel holder stand:1
12)PCB support bar:4
13)PCB support pin:8
14)Vibration Feeder:1
15):Rail Parts:4 (for conveyer model only)
16):User Manual:1

Prices for the feeders are:
60USD/Pcs(8MM)
75USD/Pcs(12mm)
90USD/Pcs(16mm)

Not sure of the 24mm feeder price.

Here is the full pricelist they gave me: https://mega.nz/#!IJ92TIKJ!_ULrGyMkOuTJ ... 5kCJf1KaFA (https://mega.nz/#!IJ92TIKJ!_ULrGyMkOuTJsgXD5LFzJVIXwN_1-Rb0A5kCJf1KaFA)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tonnyneoden on November 02, 2015, 09:21:23 am
Hello All,
This is Tonny from NeoDen Tech.

Glad to inform you our new model-NeoDen4 had been released to overseas market today,you can find details via all our platform(Ali-Express,Alibaba,Made in China,Global Sources,Ebay,Etc.).

Hello Flangeforg,
Kindly note as for 24mm feeders,it supported do customization on NeoDen4 according to the datasheet(package info) you provided and then confirm whether it's possible or not for our machine.

Thank you for all of your supportson NeoDen Tech's machines.

Best wishes to all of you.
Title: Re: NeoDen4 is ready for overseas market now
Post by: neodensmt on November 02, 2015, 09:40:00 am
Hi Dear All,

Thanks for your kindly support on NeoDen.

We are proude to announce that our NeoDen4-the 4th generation of pnp machine from NeoDen is ready for overseas market now,you can see how it works on our youtube website.

NeoDen4 is with dual cameras, auto rails, auto electronic feeders and 4 placement heads, which could help to handle 0201, BGA, QFN and 0.8m/1.2m/1.5m LED strip. NeoDen4 is the best choice to satisfy all demands of high precision, high capacity, stable performance and low cost.

This is a huge breakthrough not only for NeoDen, but also for small and medium-sized enterprises, those who want to improve placement accuracy and speed up PCB.

If any question or need more information,pls feel free to contact us.

The very best of luck in your business.

Haimi from NeoDen

Skype:haimi2008
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Yury on November 09, 2015, 04:01:58 pm
Hi Haimi,

thanks for info and prices! Please inform on leadtimes for this new model PaP.

Yury
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: haimi on November 10, 2015, 02:20:51 am
Hi Yury,
Thanks for your attention on our latest model.
As we just release this model to overseas market,many customers place order,we have run out of stock,and production line is very busy,we need 5-7 working days to assemble and calibrate new unit we have to ensure each unit work perfectly when customer receive it.
If any question,pls feel free to let us know.

Haimi from NeoDen

Skype:haimi2008
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Yury on November 17, 2015, 03:47:00 pm
Haimi, I find different data for quantity of feeders for NeoDen4.
How much it's delivered and it's required to order in addition feeders?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: neodensmt on November 20, 2015, 04:29:26 am
Hi Yury,
The feeder configuration for NeoDen4 can be customized,not standard.Max 45*8mm.
You just need tell us how many 8mm,12mm and 16mm feeder you need respectively,we will check and caculate for you.
And we will check the shipping cost after you confirm the feeder configuration.
Any question,pls send us by e-mail ,we will try to reply at our earliest.

Thanks and best regards
Haimi 

Skype:haimi2008
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Yury on November 21, 2015, 12:03:37 am
Hi Haimi,
If I buy you additional feeders. Can I make their own feeder reconfiguration of hardware and software?
Yury
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: neodensmt on November 24, 2015, 08:05:04 am
Hi Yury,
We have sent you the vedio to show you how to reconfiguration for addtional feeder.Pls feel free to let us know if any question after review it. In order to catch all comments from your esteemed company, shall we talk by e-mail?We always check mail everyday,and will do our best effort to reply you and support you!

Thank you very much for your kind understanding and with our best regards!

Sincerely yours:Haimi

skype:haimi2008
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tsillen on December 16, 2015, 09:26:44 pm
has anyone used the neoden 4?
doesit actually work good?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 18, 2015, 11:28:31 am
To the Neoden people - you really need to hire a Native English speaker to write your video scripts (not just to voice them).
Your video on Youtube looks great but the soundtrack is terrible, and makes you look very unprofessional.

A pick/place is a big investment, and if you want to sell to English-speaking countries, you really need to show that you can communicate better than this.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 18, 2015, 01:08:27 pm
Does it have automatic nozzle change ?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Royce on December 18, 2015, 05:10:54 pm
[quote author="mikeselectricstuff"]To the Neoden people - you really need to hire a Native English speaker to write your video scripts (not just to voice them).
Your video on Youtube looks great but the soundtrack is terrible, and makes you look very unprofessional.

A pick/place is a big investment, and if you want to sell to English-speaking countries, you really need to show that you can communicate better than this.[/quote]

It might be easier and cheaper to ship one to Mike and let him review it for the rest of us.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tsillen on December 18, 2015, 09:11:33 pm
I do not think it has auto nozzle change. But it has 4 nozzles.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 19, 2015, 10:40:08 pm
Quote
I do not think it has auto nozzle change. But it has 4 nozzles.
That may significantly impact placement rate optimisation by using the multiple heads

Quote
It might be easier and cheaper to ship one to Mike and let him review it for the rest of us.
Happy to do that if I can keep it, I'll even rewrite the script for your video in proper English!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: phangmoh on December 20, 2015, 05:50:50 am
Have seen the machine personally while it was still a prototype. It looks very solid and a leap above the previous 3 generation.
In my personal view, it's a USD25-40K machine in the < USD10K price bracket.
That sums it up. Planning to get one but out of budget and justification right now. :(
Title: Re: Merry Christmas & Happy New Year
Post by: neodensmt on December 23, 2015, 07:36:10 am
Hi Everybody here,

We would like to extend our warm wishes for the upcoming holiday season and would like to wish you and your family a Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year.We also would like to take this opportunity to say thank you for your continuously attention and support to NeoDen.

Sincerely yours,
Haimi

E-mail:haimi@neodentech.com
Skype:haimi2008
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Loosegoose on December 24, 2015, 08:35:33 am
What happened to the post where they said they gave ian a free neoden4 and where the heck is the review!? 

Would really like to see more official reviews of some of the other Chinese desktop pnp's and equipment, laser cutters, cnc, etc.  I check the site all the time hoping...  Bring us the miracles of small manufacturing!
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: vbe on December 24, 2015, 07:27:36 pm
Hey folks, I'm new here but looking for info about / reviews about Neoden. People who have the older machines report good success with them. I'm about to buy a Neoden 4 to bring production in-house for my products, but wanting to know if anyone has experience or advice dealing with Neoden Tech.

I've been emailing with Tonny and so far he (she?) has answered all my questions and been quite helpful in learning the details about the machine. But before dropping $12K+ USD on the full production setup (stencil printer and reflow oven included) I want to make sure that I do some due diligence! I want to know that I'm actually going to end up with a good product at my door, and that it's going to work. :)

So a few questions:

- Do you have a Neoden 4 machine? I skipped the older series because it didn't fit my requirements, but the 4 seems great!
- How did you pay? Should I opt to use Aliexpress (5% surcharge) for buyer protection? I want to make sure I actually get a working machine!
- They offered DHL shipping "Door to Door". Is this a good choice? Were there any problems with customs clearances in your country? Did they declare at the full value for tax purposes?
- Was the time-line what was quoted? I was told 7-10 days to get the order ready and 3-4 days for transit.
- I chose to get a reflow oven and stencil printer as part of the order so it's a "turn-key" system. I'd be interested in opinions on the following: PM3040 stencil printer + T-962C reflow oven.

Thanks!

vbe
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 24, 2015, 10:32:41 pm
There's a guy over at EEVBLOG who's just taken delivery of one
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/ne ... and-place/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/neoden-4-pick-and-place/)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on December 26, 2015, 12:54:14 pm
Hi Mike,
are there any videos or information about the software user interface?
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 27, 2015, 01:57:37 am
Neoden recently uploaded some vids of the software (looks fairly primitive) - I've posted links in the eevblog thread
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: supertronic on December 27, 2015, 08:19:36 am
Thank you Mike for the information.

Best regards
Michael
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 07, 2016, 09:06:26 pm
Looks like it has a very major limitation, which may be a complete game-over for some users - the head only has 10mm of Z travel, which means it can't handle parts over 5mm high - a pretty epic fail IMO.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: slavka012 on January 08, 2016, 05:47:48 am
You can sort the parts accordingly in order to overcome the low clearance problem.

I'll try to explain: put all tall components to the end of the list. And once it starts to place tall components, make sure it populates locations FARTHEST from the pick up location first. This way, once tall component is placed, the head will never have to go over that location again.

Depending on how close the mounting head is to being at -10mm when it touches the PCB, you might be able to place components up to 9mm high.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 08, 2016, 01:45:47 pm
I believe there is also a limit of 5mm for parts from feeders.
Placement order is also not an ideal solution. When things like feeder errors occur, you want it to carry on with the next feeder and do as much as possible before you need to go and sort it out (I don't know if their software does this, it certainly should), so you may have to go back & place parts after most have been placed, which will be a problem if there are tall parts already placed.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: Loosegoose on January 09, 2016, 05:54:44 am
Hmm yes for tall parts you may need to do them as a separate placement file.  Also could make a cut tape holder to transform reels into trays.  And maybe use a shorter nozzle.  Could be workable.  Hopefully we see some ideas about this in the official DP review of this machine.
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: pablofern on August 15, 2019, 10:55:28 am
Hello! It seems that Neoden has released a new model of PNP machine about a few months ago, called Neoden7. Although it's not cheap at all, it's extremely fast.. I think it's worth taking a look: https://neodenusa.com/smt-pick-and-place/neoden7 (https://neodenusa.com/smt-pick-and-place/neoden7)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: ian on August 24, 2019, 07:52:58 pm
I have a neoden 4 growing moss in the Shenzhen office, we're shipping it to Amsterdam in a few weeks :)
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tonnyneoden on October 14, 2019, 07:25:41 am
Hi All,
Thank you for kindly attentions from all friends here.

If have interest in our NeoDen Brand SMT Machines(pick and place machine)or have any problems in using,feel free contact to us.

Sincerely yours,
Tonny

Skype:tonny-neoden
Title: Re: High speed Pick & Place for $3600
Post by: tonnyneoden on May 20, 2020, 04:41:15 am
Hi All,
Good news!!!

Our company release a new pick and place model-NeoDen K1830,which is suitable to do production work.
This model equip 8 working heads,support both pneumatic and electric feeders,max component height is 18mm,use closed loop servo control system with feedbacks.
Know more details, feel free contact to us.Thank you for all of you support on NeoDen SMT Machines.

Best Regards,
Tonny-NeoDen