Title: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: arakis on February 09, 2012, 05:00:45 pm
Post by: arakis on February 09, 2012, 05:00:45 pm
Hi I am interested to know your experiences on the time it takes to make your boards, and ship them to you.
I am mainly interested in DorkBotPBX, and spark funs BatchPCB, but any experience is welcome. Thanks.
I am mainly interested in DorkBotPBX, and spark funs BatchPCB, but any experience is welcome. Thanks.
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: ian on February 09, 2012, 05:04:40 pm
Post by: ian on February 09, 2012, 05:04:40 pm
Itead and Seeed is welcome too. We're working on a new PCB service wiki and will consolidate the data there.
We're also looking for open source images depicting:
*poor via alignment
*Connected PCB traces
*over etched PCB traces
We're also looking for open source images depicting:
*poor via alignment
*Connected PCB traces
*over etched PCB traces
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: brian on February 10, 2012, 12:47:51 am
Post by: brian on February 10, 2012, 12:47:51 am
I've seen some blobs on traces from Seeed. I will take a picture next time I see one. Fill/trace shorts are pretty common on untested boards even meeting 8/8 spec. This can be due to imperfect solder mask causing shorts from soldering as well as incomplete copper etching on the part of the PCB house (I test boards before work if they are large. I have cut boards with a dremel to find the trace that is shorted and where at times.)
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: arhi on February 10, 2012, 03:04:15 am
Post by: arhi on February 10, 2012, 03:04:15 am
- seeed, made only 2 batches 10x10cm so far, 10 boards tested were ok, other 10 "all" had some sort of imperfections (all were very easily fixable, mostly it was a short between lines) .. but to say again all tested boards were flawless. Problem is that it takes 4-6 weeks to get them from PRC to here
- itead, made 6 or 7 batches, 5x5 and 10x10cm, 2 batches were the new "open source 100% e-test" and I can say that I don't think they tested the boards as well... I found many errors on both batches (SID especially), some boards don't have via's drilled in!!! I found a piece of drill bit on one of the via's ... so during drilling a drill bit cracked, and no vias after that were drilled .. and those boards "passed e-test"... impossible the previous batches with 50% e-test I didn't even look at the "other 5 boards" but the marked 5 were perfect. Same issue as with SEEED, 4-6 weeks delivery time.
- Olimex, I used to use them often, the prices were great for the time (there were no cheap PRC services then) and if you ignore the super cheap 10x10 and 5x5cm boards from this factory seeed&itead are using, the prices from Olimex are comparable to prices from PRC manufacturers and the quality of olimex boards was incredible. All boards I did were with the ENIG finish and .. perfection .. that's all I cay say. Don't forget that during ex USSR Bulgaria was the "country that were making PCB's for the union" so they had a very good pcb manufacturing tools and after the sht hit the fan they were left with whole bunch of ppl with a lot of experience in pcb manufacturing .. olimex used that fact and are producing perfect boards for a long time.... more expensive then PRC but .. it really depends what you are looking for
- EI NIS Serbia, too expensive for the small batch as they charge some idiotic prices for "preparation", like they charge you 30EUR for dm2 for that, but when you get over the initial "preparation fee" the per board prices are very good (a colleague just posted prices on local forum yesterday, for e.g. 2layer 3.8dm2 board is 13.8eur, 2 layer 2.6dm2 is 10.7eur and 4layer 0.2dm2 is 3.3eur. To get these 2layer boards from seed would cost you 155$ for 10 (so 11.6eur for pcb) so it's not really a big difference taking into account that you will get boards from EI NIS in few days and that quality is higher then what I get from seeed/itead.. EI does 99% of the production for some French electronics manufacturers so they have very very very high quality standards they need to follow :D ... one other thing about EI - they do offer pcb population service too (both manual and pnp). The major issue with EI could be "how to get to them and how to pay them" as I'm not sure they are "open" to small orders from individuals from outside of Serbia, but I might be wrong
Those are all I tried. Olimex and EI do pcb's "for you only", itead/seeed and many other cheap ones do wait for number of orders so they can fill in the whole panel and then they make the panels and divide those "preparation" fees between the users... The major problem I have with seeed/itead is consistency, I got boards that looked like "hell yeah this is made in Sweden" and boards that looked like "who painted this cardboard green and sent it as pcb" ... 4-6 weeks can be a serious issue, lack of communication .. I once waited 2 months then pinged them "why are the boards not here" only to get "but we never received your gerbers" reply .. (and I know I sent them, they are in Sent folder on gmail) ... when you need something "other then ordinary" communication can be a bitch.. Olimex guy's speak English very good ... donno about EI guy's I use Serbian to talk to them :D
Btw there used to be a huge 16 layer 2/2 capable factory in Macedonia but was fscked up by some terrorists from North. The factory was supposed to be privatized and was supposed to start working last year, I have no clue what happened there, if they are up or they decided to just sell the equipment and cover losses ... If we have some readers from Macedonia they could fill us in :)
- itead, made 6 or 7 batches, 5x5 and 10x10cm, 2 batches were the new "open source 100% e-test" and I can say that I don't think they tested the boards as well... I found many errors on both batches (SID especially), some boards don't have via's drilled in!!! I found a piece of drill bit on one of the via's ... so during drilling a drill bit cracked, and no vias after that were drilled .. and those boards "passed e-test"... impossible the previous batches with 50% e-test I didn't even look at the "other 5 boards" but the marked 5 were perfect. Same issue as with SEEED, 4-6 weeks delivery time.
- Olimex, I used to use them often, the prices were great for the time (there were no cheap PRC services then) and if you ignore the super cheap 10x10 and 5x5cm boards from this factory seeed&itead are using, the prices from Olimex are comparable to prices from PRC manufacturers and the quality of olimex boards was incredible. All boards I did were with the ENIG finish and .. perfection .. that's all I cay say. Don't forget that during ex USSR Bulgaria was the "country that were making PCB's for the union" so they had a very good pcb manufacturing tools and after the sht hit the fan they were left with whole bunch of ppl with a lot of experience in pcb manufacturing .. olimex used that fact and are producing perfect boards for a long time.... more expensive then PRC but .. it really depends what you are looking for
- EI NIS Serbia, too expensive for the small batch as they charge some idiotic prices for "preparation", like they charge you 30EUR for dm2 for that, but when you get over the initial "preparation fee" the per board prices are very good (a colleague just posted prices on local forum yesterday, for e.g. 2layer 3.8dm2 board is 13.8eur, 2 layer 2.6dm2 is 10.7eur and 4layer 0.2dm2 is 3.3eur. To get these 2layer boards from seed would cost you 155$ for 10 (so 11.6eur for pcb) so it's not really a big difference taking into account that you will get boards from EI NIS in few days and that quality is higher then what I get from seeed/itead.. EI does 99% of the production for some French electronics manufacturers so they have very very very high quality standards they need to follow :D ... one other thing about EI - they do offer pcb population service too (both manual and pnp). The major issue with EI could be "how to get to them and how to pay them" as I'm not sure they are "open" to small orders from individuals from outside of Serbia, but I might be wrong
Those are all I tried. Olimex and EI do pcb's "for you only", itead/seeed and many other cheap ones do wait for number of orders so they can fill in the whole panel and then they make the panels and divide those "preparation" fees between the users... The major problem I have with seeed/itead is consistency, I got boards that looked like "hell yeah this is made in Sweden" and boards that looked like "who painted this cardboard green and sent it as pcb" ... 4-6 weeks can be a serious issue, lack of communication .. I once waited 2 months then pinged them "why are the boards not here" only to get "but we never received your gerbers" reply .. (and I know I sent them, they are in Sent folder on gmail) ... when you need something "other then ordinary" communication can be a bitch.. Olimex guy's speak English very good ... donno about EI guy's I use Serbian to talk to them :D
Btw there used to be a huge 16 layer 2/2 capable factory in Macedonia but was fscked up by some terrorists from North. The factory was supposed to be privatized and was supposed to start working last year, I have no clue what happened there, if they are up or they decided to just sell the equipment and cover losses ... If we have some readers from Macedonia they could fill us in :)
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: Pisami on February 10, 2012, 07:23:12 am
Post by: Pisami on February 10, 2012, 07:23:12 am
I have not tried myself, but I heard once this is good quality, bit expensive PCB house in Estonia: http://www.brandner.ee/index.php?main=1 (http://www.brandner.ee/index.php?main=1)
Some guy's open source gprs/gps tracker, and pictures of the board: http://www.ruuvipenkki.fi/2012/01/26/ta ... piirilevyt (http://www.ruuvipenkki.fi/2012/01/26/tassa-ovat-ruuvitrackerin-ensimmaiset-piirilevyt)
Some guy's open source gprs/gps tracker, and pictures of the board: http://www.ruuvipenkki.fi/2012/01/26/ta ... piirilevyt (http://www.ruuvipenkki.fi/2012/01/26/tassa-ovat-ruuvitrackerin-ensimmaiset-piirilevyt)
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: arupbsk on February 13, 2012, 03:42:20 pm
Post by: arupbsk on February 13, 2012, 03:42:20 pm
I have only use Itead once.
I sent gerbers on 29'th december and it was shipped in 4'th January though it took more than 30 days in postal to reach me in India though India being the neighbour country of china.
The board I've sent to manufacture had nice wide traces/spaces and was non-SMD design. For that reason all 10 boards were perfect in my eye (I havent assembled them all, but one). Images at my blog http://goo.gl/MNFou (http://goo.gl/MNFou)
I'm very dissatisfied with the shipping.
I haven't had directly ordered something with Seeed, but have received some Seeed manufactured boards from the free pcb drawer. All the boards were excellent. The first board I received from free pcb drawer was a buspirate soic edition (those days there was nothing called diy edition and soic edition was freely avail;able in the drawer). The board didnt had any mark (non-etested) but the buspirate worked without error even I was new to smd soldering those days.
The only shipment I received from Seeed was courtesy of DP, it was a gifted DP tshirt and as per the tracking number, I saw it reached me in only 6 days after they had dispatched it.
For this reason, next time I'll order with Seeedstudio for my prototype pcbs of final version of my solar monitor project (unpublished yet, opensource ofcourse).
Oh and one thing, I'm unsure if the same will happen to seeed or not, I had very hard communication with iTead. They use meaningless english words in their reply. Even the forum was useless.
I got reply regarding my gerbers, "Are there no windowing drill holes on the bottom side? All the the holes will be covered according to the current design." I got no explanation on this in their forum too. After I got the boards in my hand, I understood they were referring to tented vias(without pads).
I sent gerbers on 29'th december and it was shipped in 4'th January though it took more than 30 days in postal to reach me in India though India being the neighbour country of china.
The board I've sent to manufacture had nice wide traces/spaces and was non-SMD design. For that reason all 10 boards were perfect in my eye (I havent assembled them all, but one). Images at my blog http://goo.gl/MNFou (http://goo.gl/MNFou)
I'm very dissatisfied with the shipping.
I haven't had directly ordered something with Seeed, but have received some Seeed manufactured boards from the free pcb drawer. All the boards were excellent. The first board I received from free pcb drawer was a buspirate soic edition (those days there was nothing called diy edition and soic edition was freely avail;able in the drawer). The board didnt had any mark (non-etested) but the buspirate worked without error even I was new to smd soldering those days.
The only shipment I received from Seeed was courtesy of DP, it was a gifted DP tshirt and as per the tracking number, I saw it reached me in only 6 days after they had dispatched it.
For this reason, next time I'll order with Seeedstudio for my prototype pcbs of final version of my solar monitor project (unpublished yet, opensource ofcourse).
Oh and one thing, I'm unsure if the same will happen to seeed or not, I had very hard communication with iTead. They use meaningless english words in their reply. Even the forum was useless.
I got reply regarding my gerbers, "Are there no windowing drill holes on the bottom side? All the the holes will be covered according to the current design." I got no explanation on this in their forum too. After I got the boards in my hand, I understood they were referring to tented vias(without pads).
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: Sjaak on February 13, 2012, 09:08:54 pm
Post by: Sjaak on February 13, 2012, 09:08:54 pm
[quote author="arupbsk"]I have only use Itead once.
I sent gerbers on 29'th december and it was shipped in 4'th January though it took more than 30 days in postal to reach me in India though India being the neighbour country of china.
This is a problem with more eastern countries :) I beleive seeed has a native englisch speaker in their workforce
I sent gerbers on 29'th december and it was shipped in 4'th January though it took more than 30 days in postal to reach me in India though India being the neighbour country of china.
Quote
[/quote][/quote]
This is during the chinese newyear. During that time shipping take always lots of time. THe remaining of the year shipping is much quicker. usually it takes 1-3 weeks to ship it to .nl, europe, mostly in between. I think those cheap chinese sellers use a service that uses 'unused' space in an aircraft to send things cheap to you. Downside it will take some time :)
[quote author="arupbsk"]
Oh and one thing, I'm unsure if the same will happen to seeed or not, I had very hard communication with iTead. They use meaningless english words in their reply. Even the forum was useless.
I got reply regarding my gerbers, "Are there no windowing drill holes on the bottom side? All the the holes will be covered according to the current design." I got no explanation on this in their forum too. After I got the boards in my hand, I understood they were referring to tented vias(without pads).
This is a problem with more eastern countries :) I beleive seeed has a native englisch speaker in their workforce
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: bearmos on February 15, 2012, 03:05:51 pm
Post by: bearmos on February 15, 2012, 03:05:51 pm
Ian has directed pictures from the request for PCB manf. errors (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/2012/02/15/free-pcbs-for-pictures-of-pcb-errors/#comment-30680) here. These images can be used in whatever way is helpful.
This is an example of a primarily through hole board that has a single SMT component. The SMT component is always assembled by hand. In this case, the assembler has solder all of the pins, but the IC isn't actually sitting on the pads! The assembler appears to have tacked down one corner and then hastily soldered the remaining pins. I've also had issues where the corners were tacked down but none of the other pins were soldered ( I don't have any pictures of these, but they just look like a partially soldering chip).
[attachment=1]
[attachment=0]
This is an example of a primarily through hole board that has a single SMT component. The SMT component is always assembled by hand. In this case, the assembler has solder all of the pins, but the IC isn't actually sitting on the pads! The assembler appears to have tacked down one corner and then hastily soldered the remaining pins. I've also had issues where the corners were tacked down but none of the other pins were soldered ( I don't have any pictures of these, but they just look like a partially soldering chip).
[attachment=1]
[attachment=0]
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: dps on February 15, 2012, 03:08:17 pm
Post by: dps on February 15, 2012, 03:08:17 pm
Seeed Studio, 100mm by 100mm, March 2011:
On the front, many vias are drilled too far "south" relative to the copper. Actually, that's true for most of the drilled holes. The back looks decent.
Edit: There also are vias featuring a drill size much smaller than the copper. This was a design problem, not a manufacturing problem. :-)
Edit2: Grammar and numeric errors fixed. I can't believe I typed "to" instead of "too"!
Image license: CC BY-SA
On the front, many vias are drilled too far "south" relative to the copper. Actually, that's true for most of the drilled holes. The back looks decent.
Edit: There also are vias featuring a drill size much smaller than the copper. This was a design problem, not a manufacturing problem. :-)
Edit2: Grammar and numeric errors fixed. I can't believe I typed "to" instead of "too"!
Image license: CC BY-SA
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: AlexF on February 15, 2012, 04:18:16 pm
Post by: AlexF on February 15, 2012, 04:18:16 pm
Hi! Look at the 5-th pin. About 5% of PCB's have this short to GND.
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: twinpeaks on February 15, 2012, 06:08:18 pm
Post by: twinpeaks on February 15, 2012, 06:08:18 pm
Hi,
I also have ordered some PCBs from Seeds Fusion Service. They are 50 x 40 mm in size.
All Vias should have been covered by the stop mask, but some vias are not covered.
Also there are quite some off-center drilled vias. E.g. the one in the middle of IC1 or the one at pin 7.
[attachment=0]
License: CC BY-SA
However all PCBs work for me, so far all vias have contact and I have not seen shorts.
regards,
twinpeaks
I also have ordered some PCBs from Seeds Fusion Service. They are 50 x 40 mm in size.
All Vias should have been covered by the stop mask, but some vias are not covered.
Also there are quite some off-center drilled vias. E.g. the one in the middle of IC1 or the one at pin 7.
[attachment=0]
License: CC BY-SA
However all PCBs work for me, so far all vias have contact and I have not seen shorts.
regards,
twinpeaks
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: arhi on February 15, 2012, 06:17:35 pm
Post by: arhi on February 15, 2012, 06:17:35 pm
[quote author="twinpeaks"]
All Vias should have been covered by the stop mask, but some vias are not covered.
[/quote]
Have you check your gerber? If via is covered by the solder mask or not is defined in your gerber. It is possible that your gerber is faulty (happened to me many times)
All Vias should have been covered by the stop mask, but some vias are not covered.
[/quote]
Have you check your gerber? If via is covered by the solder mask or not is defined in your gerber. It is possible that your gerber is faulty (happened to me many times)
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: twinpeaks on February 15, 2012, 06:24:35 pm
Post by: twinpeaks on February 15, 2012, 06:24:35 pm
[quote author="arhi"]
Have you check your gerber? If via is covered by the solder mask or not is defined in your gerber.[/quote]
Yes, gerber files are OK. This occured not on every PCB of the batch and not always at the same vias. Some PCBs are 100% good, but most PCBs have some vias not covered. Fortunately this was not a problem for this design.
twinpeaks
Have you check your gerber? If via is covered by the solder mask or not is defined in your gerber.[/quote]
Yes, gerber files are OK. This occured not on every PCB of the batch and not always at the same vias. Some PCBs are 100% good, but most PCBs have some vias not covered. Fortunately this was not a problem for this design.
twinpeaks
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: holla2040 on February 15, 2012, 09:41:54 pm
Post by: holla2040 on February 15, 2012, 09:41:54 pm
As per http://dangerousprototypes.com/2012/02/ ... cb-errors/ (http://dangerousprototypes.com/2012/02/15/free-pcbs-for-pictures-of-pcb-errors/) , here's an image of board where the board house, 4pcb's barebones, put their id in copper in the middle of the 120VAC/DC isolation field.
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: pricecw on February 16, 2012, 06:42:25 am
Post by: pricecw on February 16, 2012, 06:42:25 am
Here is a picture of a mis-aligned via drill from ITead. I thought this one showed a full crescent.
OK, got to get past new user thing to expire to post a link.
--Carl
OK, got to get past new user thing to expire to post a link.
--Carl
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: ian on February 16, 2012, 07:08:06 am
Post by: ian on February 16, 2012, 07:08:06 am
Thanks everyone, PCB code with be forthcoming if you haven't got one already.
@Carl - you should be able to attach an image directly to the post. Click post reply, then the upload attachment tab under the text editor box.
@Carl - you should be able to attach an image directly to the post. Click post reply, then the upload attachment tab under the text editor box.
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: pricecw on February 16, 2012, 07:52:57 am
Post by: pricecw on February 16, 2012, 07:52:57 am
Thanks, here it is (I put a link to it in the blog post also).
Note, this does not affect the board working, but is one of the more mis-aligned via drills I have seen in the boards I have done. This happens to be an FTDI 4232H breakout board that came out very nice, a few tweaks if I do it again, but works very well.
--Carl
Note, this does not affect the board working, but is one of the more mis-aligned via drills I have seen in the boards I have done. This happens to be an FTDI 4232H breakout board that came out very nice, a few tweaks if I do it again, but works very well.
--Carl
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: bearmos on February 16, 2012, 03:09:15 pm
Post by: bearmos on February 16, 2012, 03:09:15 pm
Along with images of all the issues, I assume you'll cover some best practices as well? A couple of the things that are really useful are larger pads around the vias (to decreases the chance that a misaligned drill hit / etch results in a breakout) and using "tear drops" around the via's.
The tear drops eliminate sharp angles (which tend to trap etchant and potentially cause latent failures), as well as providing some additional copper between the PTH and the trace, which provides some additional insurance for sloppy alignment. The extra copper also probably helps a little bit to guard against stress fractures between tiny traces and vias. The stress fractures are probably more of a concern with flex PCB's though - not very common for the DIY'er. . .yet!
Here's an example of tear drops:
[attachment=0]
Altium Designer (and probably all of the other major ECAD systems) will automation the generation of tear drops. I haven't looked into finding an equivalent ULP for eagle, but imagine there's one out there somewhere.
Anyone know of any tear-drop ULP's for eagle?
Here's a link that graphically shows what I was describing w/rt tear drops. See slide 18
http://http://www.scribd.com/doc/2877555/PCB-Guide
The tear drops eliminate sharp angles (which tend to trap etchant and potentially cause latent failures), as well as providing some additional copper between the PTH and the trace, which provides some additional insurance for sloppy alignment. The extra copper also probably helps a little bit to guard against stress fractures between tiny traces and vias. The stress fractures are probably more of a concern with flex PCB's though - not very common for the DIY'er. . .yet!
Here's an example of tear drops:
[attachment=0]
Altium Designer (and probably all of the other major ECAD systems) will automation the generation of tear drops. I haven't looked into finding an equivalent ULP for eagle, but imagine there's one out there somewhere.
Anyone know of any tear-drop ULP's for eagle?
Here's a link that graphically shows what I was describing w/rt tear drops. See slide 18
http://http://www.scribd.com/doc/2877555/PCB-Guide
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: bearmos on February 16, 2012, 03:13:33 pm
Post by: bearmos on February 16, 2012, 03:13:33 pm
[quote author="pricecw"]Thanks, here it is (I put a link to it in the blog post also).
Note, this does not affect the board working, but is one of the more mis-aligned via drills I have seen in the boards I have done. This happens to be an FTDI 4232H breakout board that came out very nice, a few tweaks if I do it again, but works very well.
--Carl[/quote]
The disturbing part of this photo is that not all of the misaligned drill hits are misaligned the same way (e.g. some are "high" some are "low" and one is too far right), possibly suggesting that the manufacturer is using a CNC that is on the hairy edge of having enough resolution required to make the PCB's to spec. . .
Note, this does not affect the board working, but is one of the more mis-aligned via drills I have seen in the boards I have done. This happens to be an FTDI 4232H breakout board that came out very nice, a few tweaks if I do it again, but works very well.
--Carl[/quote]
The disturbing part of this photo is that not all of the misaligned drill hits are misaligned the same way (e.g. some are "high" some are "low" and one is too far right), possibly suggesting that the manufacturer is using a CNC that is on the hairy edge of having enough resolution required to make the PCB's to spec. . .
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: uglyduck on February 16, 2012, 10:04:08 pm
Post by: uglyduck on February 16, 2012, 10:04:08 pm
[attachment=0]Hi everyone,
Here's a photo of an adapter board made by a Bulgarian PCB manufacturer. I am wondering do they exploit children to drill the holes... This company is very cheap so nevertheless I use their service for the very simple, small and fast prototypes from time to time... The results are often quite "expressive" as you see, and make me laugh.
Uglyduck
Here's a photo of an adapter board made by a Bulgarian PCB manufacturer. I am wondering do they exploit children to drill the holes... This company is very cheap so nevertheless I use their service for the very simple, small and fast prototypes from time to time... The results are often quite "expressive" as you see, and make me laugh.
Uglyduck
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: sqkybeaver on February 16, 2012, 10:52:32 pm
Post by: sqkybeaver on February 16, 2012, 10:52:32 pm
[quote author="uglyduck"]Hi everyone,
Here's a photo of an adapter board made by a Bulgarian PCB manufacturer. I am wondering do they exploit children to drill the holes... This company is very cheap so nevertheless I use their service for the very simple, small and fast prototypes from time to time... The results are often quite "expressive" as you see, and make me laugh.
Uglyduck[/quote]
someone sneezed while at the drill press
Here's a photo of an adapter board made by a Bulgarian PCB manufacturer. I am wondering do they exploit children to drill the holes... This company is very cheap so nevertheless I use their service for the very simple, small and fast prototypes from time to time... The results are often quite "expressive" as you see, and make me laugh.
Uglyduck[/quote]
someone sneezed while at the drill press
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: PALMA on February 17, 2012, 04:08:36 am
Post by: PALMA on February 17, 2012, 04:08:36 am
Hi everyone!
The photo shows a Bus Blaster v2.1 whit a shortcut between GND and 3.3V, I used mototool and dril to remove the copper.
License: CC BY-SA
The photo shows a Bus Blaster v2.1 whit a shortcut between GND and 3.3V, I used mototool and dril to remove the copper.
License: CC BY-SA
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: charliex on February 17, 2012, 05:22:39 am
Post by: charliex on February 17, 2012, 05:22:39 am
[quote author="bearmos"]
Anyone know of any tear-drop ULP's for eagle?
[/quote]
teardrops1/2
http://www.cadsoft.de/cgi-bin/download. ... &sort=name (http://www.cadsoft.de/cgi-bin/download.pl?page=/home/cadsoft/html_public/demo.htm&dir=eagle/userfiles/ulp&sort=name)
Anyone know of any tear-drop ULP's for eagle?
[/quote]
teardrops1/2
http://www.cadsoft.de/cgi-bin/download. ... &sort=name (http://www.cadsoft.de/cgi-bin/download.pl?page=/home/cadsoft/html_public/demo.htm&dir=eagle/userfiles/ulp&sort=name)
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: logictom on February 17, 2012, 12:32:02 pm
Post by: logictom on February 17, 2012, 12:32:02 pm
I received a rapid prototype from Spirit Circuits with some major problems.
I guess it was a problem with the mask production? Caused shorts between signal tracks and the ground plane.
I guess it was a problem with the mask production? Caused shorts between signal tracks and the ground plane.
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: logictom on February 17, 2012, 12:49:19 pm
Post by: logictom on February 17, 2012, 12:49:19 pm
This is a production copy of the same board so it wasn't an issue with the gerbers but this one has some via/drill hole misalignment but nothing causing breakouts or other issues
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: bearmos on February 17, 2012, 01:38:00 pm
Post by: bearmos on February 17, 2012, 01:38:00 pm
[quote author="charliex"][quote author="bearmos"]
Anyone know of any tear-drop ULP's for eagle?
[/quote]
teardrops1/2
http://www.cadsoft.de/cgi-bin/download. ... &sort=name (http://www.cadsoft.de/cgi-bin/download.pl?page=/home/cadsoft/html_public/demo.htm&dir=eagle/userfiles/ulp&sort=name)[/quote]
Thanks charilex - I had (very) briefly tried teardrops2 without much success. I'll have to take closer look at it when I'm not so distracted.
Anyone know of any tear-drop ULP's for eagle?
[/quote]
teardrops1/2
http://www.cadsoft.de/cgi-bin/download. ... &sort=name (http://www.cadsoft.de/cgi-bin/download.pl?page=/home/cadsoft/html_public/demo.htm&dir=eagle/userfiles/ulp&sort=name)[/quote]
Thanks charilex - I had (very) briefly tried teardrops2 without much success. I'll have to take closer look at it when I'm not so distracted.
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: bearmos on February 17, 2012, 02:38:48 pm
Post by: bearmos on February 17, 2012, 02:38:48 pm
Running teardrops2.ulp or teardrops1.ulp always seems to give an error (looks like a negative number is being passed into a sqrt function on line 491). It sounds like I'm not the only one: http://http://www.element14.com/community/message/44430 I've tried this on a few boards now without success. Maybe I'm misusing the script somehow (currently just accepting the defaults).
If this is something others have an interest in, feel free to move the last couple of posts to a new thread so we don't hijack anything ;-)
If this is something others have an interest in, feel free to move the last couple of posts to a new thread so we don't hijack anything ;-)
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: arupbsk on February 17, 2012, 04:58:55 pm
Post by: arupbsk on February 17, 2012, 04:58:55 pm
Here are sample of two errors from a PCB company based in India. Sorry but I don't want to disclose their name: they will kill me :P
None of the errors made the PCB fail to etest but both failed to original design due to poor fabrication tools.
1. Not just underetch and thick traces, coppers are scattering here and there as small particles.
[attachment=1]
2. This is the most ignored yet important layer in PCB. It's the soldermask layer. The design had the solderstop layer near the pads as sinewave(as seen in corrugated tin). But in actual it was seen as uneven and not properly done when viewed thoroughly.
[attachment=0]
Both the problems doesn't affect the functionality of the PCB, but I guess I'm the first here to point a problem in solderstop paint layer.
None of the errors made the PCB fail to etest but both failed to original design due to poor fabrication tools.
1. Not just underetch and thick traces, coppers are scattering here and there as small particles.
[attachment=1]
2. This is the most ignored yet important layer in PCB. It's the soldermask layer. The design had the solderstop layer near the pads as sinewave(as seen in corrugated tin). But in actual it was seen as uneven and not properly done when viewed thoroughly.
[attachment=0]
Both the problems doesn't affect the functionality of the PCB, but I guess I'm the first here to point a problem in solderstop paint layer.
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: bearmos on February 17, 2012, 05:24:05 pm
Post by: bearmos on February 17, 2012, 05:24:05 pm
[quote author="arupbsk"]Both the problems doesn't affect the functionality of the PCB, but I guess I'm the first here to point a problem in solderstop paint layer.[/quote]
Overall, it sounds like this fabricator either has a really sloppy process or, if they're new, they're still "tweaking" things. Hopefully, with time, things will improve, so you'll still be able to support your local manufacturing.
Not having to deal with "copper scattering" is one of the reasons to have PCB's made "professionally" instead of DIY (although, at this point, I certainly wouldn't call these results "professional").
[quote author="arupbsk"]Here are sample of two errors from a PCB company based in India. Sorry but I don't want to disclose their name: they will kill me :P[/quote]
Maybe getting their name out there attached to their work would be a good way to hold them accountable. . .
Overall, it sounds like this fabricator either has a really sloppy process or, if they're new, they're still "tweaking" things. Hopefully, with time, things will improve, so you'll still be able to support your local manufacturing.
Not having to deal with "copper scattering" is one of the reasons to have PCB's made "professionally" instead of DIY (although, at this point, I certainly wouldn't call these results "professional").
[quote author="arupbsk"]Here are sample of two errors from a PCB company based in India. Sorry but I don't want to disclose their name: they will kill me :P[/quote]
Maybe getting their name out there attached to their work would be a good way to hold them accountable. . .
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: charliex on February 18, 2012, 12:49:01 am
Post by: charliex on February 18, 2012, 12:49:01 am
[quote author="bearmos"]
I had (very) briefly tried teardrops2 without much success. I'll have to take closer look at it when I'm not so distracted.[/quote]
I found that its best to save it to very last stage, and it needs a little cleanup sometimes. Typically DRC clearance issues.
You can do the undo but because it physically changes the routing rather than making a teardrop attribute its a very manual process to remove it if you can't step back with undo, or revert to an earlier change.
but it does work, reasonably well, not as good as pulsonix etc but its a start.
Sometimes i just do the manual split, drag method instead.
I just read your other post, i haven't run into that particular problem but it sounds like someones fixed it ( or at least improved it )
I had (very) briefly tried teardrops2 without much success. I'll have to take closer look at it when I'm not so distracted.[/quote]
I found that its best to save it to very last stage, and it needs a little cleanup sometimes. Typically DRC clearance issues.
You can do the undo but because it physically changes the routing rather than making a teardrop attribute its a very manual process to remove it if you can't step back with undo, or revert to an earlier change.
but it does work, reasonably well, not as good as pulsonix etc but its a start.
Sometimes i just do the manual split, drag method instead.
I just read your other post, i haven't run into that particular problem but it sounds like someones fixed it ( or at least improved it )
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: chr on February 19, 2012, 08:52:55 pm
Post by: chr on February 19, 2012, 08:52:55 pm
Here's another solder resist defect. On a nearly circular area there is no resist, the exposed copper is not tinned. Maybe caused by a bubble that collapsed.
[attachment=1]
[attachment=0]
For size reference - the oblong pad is 2.6x1mm.
[attachment=1]
[attachment=0]
For size reference - the oblong pad is 2.6x1mm.
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: mrLaw on February 26, 2012, 02:23:55 am
Post by: mrLaw on February 26, 2012, 02:23:55 am
This is a combined picture of areas of one board from ITead which has some soldermask issues and the silkscreen is also slightly out of alignment. On the other nine boards, the soldermask is fine.
Title: Re: Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
Post by: riktw on February 26, 2012, 03:25:35 pm
Post by: riktw on February 26, 2012, 03:25:35 pm
Hmm, the title of the topic is Cheap PCB manufacturing timelines
So, for that, normally when i order PCB's from Iteadstudio it takes 3 to 4 weeks after ordering to arrival, with DHL shipping less then 2 weeks mostly.
Eurocircuits (not cheap but i needed stuff FAST) did it in 5 days, ordered on Monday, got PCB's on Friday.
They can do faster but prices tend to be amazingly high then.
For PCB's, i throw away non working stuff, doubt i got a picture of a failing PCB.
So, for that, normally when i order PCB's from Iteadstudio it takes 3 to 4 weeks after ordering to arrival, with DHL shipping less then 2 weeks mostly.
Eurocircuits (not cheap but i needed stuff FAST) did it in 5 days, ordered on Monday, got PCB's on Friday.
They can do faster but prices tend to be amazingly high then.
For PCB's, i throw away non working stuff, doubt i got a picture of a failing PCB.