Poll
We got an offer to give away a 1 year license for Cadsoft Eagle.
I'm hesitant. It's a valuable prize, but it's a time bomb for a hobbyist. They can made a bigger design, but then they are locked out of it after a year and most probably can't afford the renewal. That kinda runs contra to our philosophy.
On the other hand, there may be a student or group that could really get a boost out of it, even if only for a year.
I told the contact I would post it in the forum and let you decide. Vote on it here, I'll honor your decision as it stands at the end of the week.
To elaborate, DP has licenses (the $50 commercial use of the freeware version one) for the Eagle we use for-profit. All of our projects to date fit entirely in the freeware version, so users can always get a free copy of eagle and edit our files.
yes, one year limit.
There you have it. Next week we'll be giving these away. Thanks for your ideas!
Question: Give away a 1 year Eagle license?
Option 1: No, it's a trap! It'll lock you of your own work!
votes: 9
Option 2: Yes, it might really help a group or project!
votes: 6
Title: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: ian on November 09, 2011, 03:51:19 pm
Post by: ian on November 09, 2011, 03:51:19 pm
Quote
Hey Ian,
I’ve been talking with the Cadsoft team here and they may be willing to offer a Free one year license to Cadsoft for you to giveaway on your site if you would be interested?
It’s becoming very popular with the hobbyists and the license fee is around £1500 so it’s a great offer.
We got an offer to give away a 1 year license for Cadsoft Eagle.
I'm hesitant. It's a valuable prize, but it's a time bomb for a hobbyist. They can made a bigger design, but then they are locked out of it after a year and most probably can't afford the renewal. That kinda runs contra to our philosophy.
On the other hand, there may be a student or group that could really get a boost out of it, even if only for a year.
I told the contact I would post it in the forum and let you decide. Vote on it here, I'll honor your decision as it stands at the end of the week.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: bearmos on November 09, 2011, 08:48:27 pm
Post by: bearmos on November 09, 2011, 08:48:27 pm
I'm confused (nothing new here). I didn't even know that Cadsoft had subscription based licensing. . . Do they mean you'll get free upgrades for a year, with a "perpetual license" after that? I'll head over to their site to check out what new terms may have popped up since I last looked.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: bearmos on November 09, 2011, 08:59:44 pm
Post by: bearmos on November 09, 2011, 08:59:44 pm
So, it doesn't appear that their normal pricing (http://http://www.cadsoftusa.com/shop/pricing/?language=en) includes any type of subscription. So what gives? Is this really a time bomb license?! Or is it a miscommunication of some kind? It would really be a shame if this is some sort of *cheap* marketing ploy. . .giving away a pro license is one thing, but giving away a crippled product is just despicable.
I'll be abstaining until there's clarification, or saturday, whichever comes first.
I'll be abstaining until there's clarification, or saturday, whichever comes first.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: dpropicweb on November 10, 2011, 01:10:24 am
Post by: dpropicweb on November 10, 2011, 01:10:24 am
From their website - What's New in...
I imagine v6 will allow different "limited time" licences.
Quote
Version 5.8
Platforms
The minimum system requirement for the Mac version of EAGLE is Mac OS X 10.4 (this was forgotton in the version 5.7.0 release notes).
License
CadSoft now provides an EAGLE “Freemium” license, which is valid for a limited time, and is more powerful than the Freeware license. See http://www.element14.com/eagle-freemium (http://www.element14.com/eagle-freemium) for more information.
The Standard edition of EAGLE can now handle 6 signal layers.
The “Help/EAGLE License…” option now allows the user to choose between using a customized license file, the Freeware or the Freemium license.
I imagine v6 will allow different "limited time" licences.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: arhi on November 10, 2011, 03:19:23 am
Post by: arhi on November 10, 2011, 03:19:23 am
Quote
lock you of your own work!is bit overstated as iirc the free version of Eagle can open any eagle file no matter how big it is and with what licence it is prepared. (the only limit was iirc that if you create file with cracked version of eagle it will not open on other cracked version or on legal version or something like that, but it really isn't relevant for this story)... So I'd say they are offering a 1 year preview into more powerful version then free one, not a bad deal...
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: bearmos on November 10, 2011, 04:21:42 am
Post by: bearmos on November 10, 2011, 04:21:42 am
i did know about the freemium license, but it seemed closer to a standard demo than anything else. I was assuming that model was completely unrelated to this give away. . .but it is worth pointing out - maybe they're doing that as an attempt at trying out a different business model, many other vendors seem to be moving the subscription direction now.
I guess my issue is that they're providing this as a give away, but it appears to be just a crippled product (if this is the case). i guess it just seems like a very poor attempt at marketing to me. if they wanted to really come off as having some sort of good-will, they'd just give away a full or pro license, no time limits, no strings attached (but maybe that's just me).
i still find it a little hard to believe that they're giving away a single license *and* crippling it, but this very well may be the case.
I guess my issue is that they're providing this as a give away, but it appears to be just a crippled product (if this is the case). i guess it just seems like a very poor attempt at marketing to me. if they wanted to really come off as having some sort of good-will, they'd just give away a full or pro license, no time limits, no strings attached (but maybe that's just me).
i still find it a little hard to believe that they're giving away a single license *and* crippling it, but this very well may be the case.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: Sjaak on November 10, 2011, 07:56:59 am
Post by: Sjaak on November 10, 2011, 07:56:59 am
I dunno who said this to Ian, and where he is in the chain. I assume it is someone from marketing of anothere firm (element14?) who mailed.
I could be a regular proffesional license with 1 year telephone support. As I can see there are no time-limited license. The closest I could find was a 30-user license standard (pcb+sch) or 3-user (pcb+sch+auto) which translate to aprox 1500 GBP.
I could be a regular proffesional license with 1 year telephone support. As I can see there are no time-limited license. The closest I could find was a 30-user license standard (pcb+sch) or 3-user (pcb+sch+auto) which translate to aprox 1500 GBP.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: arupbsk on November 10, 2011, 08:41:34 am
Post by: arupbsk on November 10, 2011, 08:41:34 am
Simple question: Do we require special advantages of eagle non-free edition? At DP, every useful PCB design is made with freeware version of Eagle. Premium edition of eagle maybe useful for those who work with VLSI designs, motherboard design, etc. But for any student, or any person like us in DP, there's no need to use eagle premium or even freemium.
My vote to "No, it's a trap! It'll lock you of your own work!".
My vote to "No, it's a trap! It'll lock you of your own work!".
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: Sjaak on November 10, 2011, 08:50:14 am
Post by: Sjaak on November 10, 2011, 08:50:14 am
We (dangerousprototypes) do require a license as we are making money with the design. The free license is only for personal and noncommercial use.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: ian on November 10, 2011, 09:58:50 am
Post by: ian on November 10, 2011, 09:58:50 am
Quote
We (dangerousprototypes) do require a license as we are making money with the design. The free license is only for personal and noncommercial use.
To elaborate, DP has licenses (the $50 commercial use of the freeware version one) for the Eagle we use for-profit. All of our projects to date fit entirely in the freeware version, so users can always get a free copy of eagle and edit our files.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: bearmos on November 10, 2011, 01:49:07 pm
Post by: bearmos on November 10, 2011, 01:49:07 pm
[quote author="Sjaak"]I dunno who said this to Ian, and where he is in the chain. I assume it is someone from marketing of anothere firm (element14?) who mailed.
I could be a regular proffesional license with 1 year telephone support. As I can see there are no time-limited license. The closest I could find was a 30-user license standard (pcb+sch) or 3-user (pcb+sch+auto) which translate to aprox 1500 GBP.[/quote]
ian, are you going to be able to get any clarification on this? . . . looks like i'm not alone in my confusion :)
I could be a regular proffesional license with 1 year telephone support. As I can see there are no time-limited license. The closest I could find was a 30-user license standard (pcb+sch) or 3-user (pcb+sch+auto) which translate to aprox 1500 GBP.[/quote]
ian, are you going to be able to get any clarification on this? . . . looks like i'm not alone in my confusion :)
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: ian on November 10, 2011, 02:05:29 pm
Post by: ian on November 10, 2011, 02:05:29 pm
I wrote first thing this morning. I have not heard back, so I assume it is a question for them as well :D
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: ian on November 10, 2011, 04:41:28 pm
Post by: ian on November 10, 2011, 04:41:28 pm
Quote
CadSoft offers in US a one year license (it is not available through the website, but through direct negotiation and Newark). This means the license expires after one year.
yes, one year limit.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: bearmos on November 10, 2011, 04:53:17 pm
Post by: bearmos on November 10, 2011, 04:53:17 pm
that's disappointing. . .don't give things away that self-destruct!
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: Zeta on November 10, 2011, 06:00:11 pm
Post by: Zeta on November 10, 2011, 06:00:11 pm
I remember seeing this type of licence on element14, they even offer the option to buy single modules.
But I would rather have a "Hobbyist" licence than the one year licence. Their "Hobbyist" licence offers the full capabilities of the standard version but with the "Non profit" restriction, I think it suits better to Dangerous prototypes audience.
@arupbsk, I never had any need for a bigger board than the free light edition allows nor did I need more than 2 layers, but when it comes to the schematics it becomes a real pain to design a complex schematic in a single sheet.
PD: The Hobbyist licence is priced at $125 while the pro version is like $2000 why not ask for 5-10 Hobbyist licences xDD
But I would rather have a "Hobbyist" licence than the one year licence. Their "Hobbyist" licence offers the full capabilities of the standard version but with the "Non profit" restriction, I think it suits better to Dangerous prototypes audience.
@arupbsk, I never had any need for a bigger board than the free light edition allows nor did I need more than 2 layers, but when it comes to the schematics it becomes a real pain to design a complex schematic in a single sheet.
PD: The Hobbyist licence is priced at $125 while the pro version is like $2000 why not ask for 5-10 Hobbyist licences xDD
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: arupbsk on November 10, 2011, 07:18:33 pm
Post by: arupbsk on November 10, 2011, 07:18:33 pm
[quote author="Zeta"]
PD: The Hobbyist licence is priced at $125 while the pro version is like $2000 why not ask for 5-10 Hobbyist licences xDD[/quote]
I vote it.
PD: The Hobbyist licence is priced at $125 while the pro version is like $2000 why not ask for 5-10 Hobbyist licences xDD[/quote]
I vote it.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: arhi on November 11, 2011, 03:51:07 am
Post by: arhi on November 11, 2011, 03:51:07 am
100x160mm is a standard eurocard size pcb being sold in europe (you purchase pcb with a photo sensitive layer on it it comes in that size). The free version limits us to 100x80 and that's only half of the eurocard == pretty lame.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: arupbsk on November 11, 2011, 05:38:22 pm
Post by: arupbsk on November 11, 2011, 05:38:22 pm
[quote author="arhi"]100x160mm is a standard eurocard size pcb being sold in europe (you purchase pcb with a photo sensitive layer on it it comes in that size). The free version limits us to 100x80 and that's only half of the eurocard == pretty lame.[/quote]
Really?
Here boards are available in 100x100, 100x150 and 150x150 size normally. I use 100x100 most time. And yes, I've used light edition (free) eagle to make designs of 100x100mm. That doesn't matches to your said 100x80 size limit.
See
http://snpr.cm/g2vtSN.png (http://snpr.cm/g2vtSN.png)
http://snpr.cm/8NeYHz.png (http://snpr.cm/8NeYHz.png)
http://snpr.cm/yj3BoG.png (http://snpr.cm/yj3BoG.png)
The above shown board was of 86x100 size which I etched to a 100x100 clad piece.
Really?
Here boards are available in 100x100, 100x150 and 150x150 size normally. I use 100x100 most time. And yes, I've used light edition (free) eagle to make designs of 100x100mm. That doesn't matches to your said 100x80 size limit.
See
http://snpr.cm/g2vtSN.png (http://snpr.cm/g2vtSN.png)
http://snpr.cm/8NeYHz.png (http://snpr.cm/8NeYHz.png)
http://snpr.cm/yj3BoG.png (http://snpr.cm/yj3BoG.png)
The above shown board was of 86x100 size which I etched to a 100x100 clad piece.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: tayken on November 11, 2011, 05:52:53 pm
Post by: tayken on November 11, 2011, 05:52:53 pm
The size is related to the area where you can place your components. There is no problem related to board dimensions as I know. Also if I remember correctly there was a number of pins restriction too.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: arhi on November 11, 2011, 06:20:34 pm
Post by: arhi on November 11, 2011, 06:20:34 pm
[quote author="arupbsk"]Here boards are available in 100x100, 100x150 and 150x150 size normally.[/quote]
The regular photo sensitive ones go from 160x100 and up (I think noone sells smaller ones) so you have to cut it yourself if you need smaller board... anynow 160x100 is kinda "standard", I'd expect a free version not to go below that.
In any way, don't get me wrong, Eagle is relatively good tool and the value they give for free ain't small; also what they are willing to give for free for a year attm is still not a small value - yes, it's not ideal, ideally would be that they go open source and give unrestricted binaries to everyone :D but what they are willing to give for a year ain't that bad also
The regular photo sensitive ones go from 160x100 and up (I think noone sells smaller ones) so you have to cut it yourself if you need smaller board... anynow 160x100 is kinda "standard", I'd expect a free version not to go below that.
In any way, don't get me wrong, Eagle is relatively good tool and the value they give for free ain't small; also what they are willing to give for free for a year attm is still not a small value - yes, it's not ideal, ideally would be that they go open source and give unrestricted binaries to everyone :D but what they are willing to give for a year ain't that bad also
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: Shaos on November 12, 2011, 08:09:27 pm
Post by: Shaos on November 12, 2011, 08:09:27 pm
[quote author="arupbsk"][quote author="arhi"]100x160mm is a standard eurocard size pcb being sold in europe (you purchase pcb with a photo sensitive layer on it it comes in that size). The free version limits us to 100x80 and that's only half of the eurocard == pretty lame.[/quote]
Really?
Here boards are available in 100x100, 100x150 and 150x150 size normally. I use 100x100 most time. And yes, I've used light edition (free) eagle to make designs of 100x100mm. That doesn't matches to your said 100x80 size limit.
See
http://snpr.cm/g2vtSN.png (http://snpr.cm/g2vtSN.png)
http://snpr.cm/8NeYHz.png (http://snpr.cm/8NeYHz.png)
http://snpr.cm/yj3BoG.png (http://snpr.cm/yj3BoG.png)
The above shown board was of 86x100 size which I etched to a 100x100 clad piece.[/quote]
It's strange, because free Eagle HAS limitation of 100x80 mm! I bought "standard" license a few years ago in order to be able to have multiple schematics sheets and up to 160x100 mm board with 4 layers...
P.S. I'm against of a "new" Eagle (after v5.6.0 it was purchased by element14/farnell), because new owner removed all mentions of any kind of "freewareness" from Eagle advertisement materials (I got one of it, it made me scared and I scanned and posted it to adafrut forum and after that some really unhappy guy from farnell tried to shut me up)
Really?
Here boards are available in 100x100, 100x150 and 150x150 size normally. I use 100x100 most time. And yes, I've used light edition (free) eagle to make designs of 100x100mm. That doesn't matches to your said 100x80 size limit.
See
http://snpr.cm/g2vtSN.png (http://snpr.cm/g2vtSN.png)
http://snpr.cm/8NeYHz.png (http://snpr.cm/8NeYHz.png)
http://snpr.cm/yj3BoG.png (http://snpr.cm/yj3BoG.png)
The above shown board was of 86x100 size which I etched to a 100x100 clad piece.[/quote]
It's strange, because free Eagle HAS limitation of 100x80 mm! I bought "standard" license a few years ago in order to be able to have multiple schematics sheets and up to 160x100 mm board with 4 layers...
P.S. I'm against of a "new" Eagle (after v5.6.0 it was purchased by element14/farnell), because new owner removed all mentions of any kind of "freewareness" from Eagle advertisement materials (I got one of it, it made me scared and I scanned and posted it to adafrut forum and after that some really unhappy guy from farnell tried to shut me up)
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: arhi on November 12, 2011, 09:15:45 pm
Post by: arhi on November 12, 2011, 09:15:45 pm
I had no idea farnell purchased cadsoft (not sure what is the difference between premierfarnell.com and farnell.com I see the same logo - different color) ... looks like 12MEUR ... good price...
Anyhow, I see this: http://www.cadsoftusa.com/downloads/fre ... anguage=en (http://www.cadsoftusa.com/downloads/freeware/?language=en) .. I don't see that they removed free version?!
Anyhow, I see this: http://www.cadsoftusa.com/downloads/fre ... anguage=en (http://www.cadsoftusa.com/downloads/freeware/?language=en) .. I don't see that they removed free version?!
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: Zeta on November 12, 2011, 09:49:58 pm
Post by: Zeta on November 12, 2011, 09:49:58 pm
Farnell, Premier Farnell, Newark and Element14 are owned by the same company.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: dpropicweb on November 12, 2011, 10:31:12 pm
Post by: dpropicweb on November 12, 2011, 10:31:12 pm
I think, more accurately, Premier Farnell plc is the "company". Farnell in Australia is owned by Premier Farnell plc and now uses the "trading name" of element14. Thus, Premier Farnell plc trades as Farnell in Europe, Newark in the US, Canada and Mexico, Farnell Newark in Brazil, and element14 across the Asia-Pacific.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: Shaos on November 12, 2011, 10:46:40 pm
Post by: Shaos on November 12, 2011, 10:46:40 pm
[quote author="arhi"]Anyhow, I see this: http://www.cadsoftusa.com/downloads/fre ... anguage=en (http://www.cadsoftusa.com/downloads/freeware/?language=en) .. I don't see that they removed free version?![/quote]
cadsoftusa.com is still have "freeware" option, but all other places (including paper materials) are not:
cadsoftusa.com is still have "freeware" option, but all other places (including paper materials) are not:
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: Shaos on November 12, 2011, 10:51:44 pm
Post by: Shaos on November 12, 2011, 10:51:44 pm
Also they plan to charge money for upgrade to v6 - see here (http://http://www.newark.com/jsp/bespoke/bespoke7.jsp?bespokepage=newark/common/mfg/cadsoft/store.jsp&N=0&Ntk=brand&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntt=cadsoft):
So I will stop use Eagle as soon as v6 will be officially released as latest and greatest...
Quote
PLUS, for a limited time, buy any module of CadSoft EAGLE and receive a FREE Upgrade to the New Version 6, available soon.
So I will stop use Eagle as soon as v6 will be officially released as latest and greatest...
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: dpropicweb on November 12, 2011, 11:11:13 pm
Post by: dpropicweb on November 12, 2011, 11:11:13 pm
Oh come now. It is perfectly normal business practice to charge for major version upgrades of commercial software.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: Shaos on November 12, 2011, 11:33:50 pm
Post by: Shaos on November 12, 2011, 11:33:50 pm
[quote author="dpropicweb"]Oh come now. It is perfectly normal business practice to charge for major version upgrades of commercial software.[/quote]
I understand that :)
I bought Eagle v4, but got key for v5 that works for both v4 and v5
And I don't want to pay anything to get v6 - sorry ;)
I understand that :)
I bought Eagle v4, but got key for v5 that works for both v4 and v5
And I don't want to pay anything to get v6 - sorry ;)
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: arhi on November 13, 2011, 03:06:38 am
Post by: arhi on November 13, 2011, 03:06:38 am
well, you can continue to use v5 unlimited right?
anyhow, I would constrain my self from spreading fud as attm nothing is "known". When Sun purchased MySQL whole bunch of ppl started spreading fud on "what will happen" - nothing did, except some ppl left, some ppl were hired .. not a single other thing changed wrt mysql and mysql's community .. the Oracle purchased Sun, again "they will close MySQL", "they will kill it", "let us hurry and learn pgsql" .. etc etc ... what happened is the best release of MySQL EVER (5.5) with less bugs then any release in mysql's history, the features ppl waited for years were created, bugs 5-6 years old were fixed etc etc ... and yes, if you go to www.oracle.com (http://www.oracle.com) you will not find a single word about how mysql is free and how you can download it, use it for free (under GPL licence), they only talk on oracle.com about commercial/oem licences, subscriptions, trainings etc. etc... but they never killed the GPL side of MySQL, everything is just as it was (many things are even better wrt both gpl and commercial users) ... So IMO it is more then normal that all marketing material farnell now makes about eagle talk about "what you can purchase" and that it does not mention freeware version.... but unless they actually kill the free version and remove the download url's, I'd stay calm :)
Now, as we are all aware - they CAN decide today (or tomorrow or in 3 years) to change licences, remove free version, push price to million dollars per licence if they wish so... You can decide to trust them or not. I personally do not use products with licence that expires. I can survive with "limited time free upgrade", that's ok, but I want to be able to use my licenced app in 20 years from now legally, yeah I can't upgrde but who cares. AFAIK if you now purchase a licence for Eagle v5 you *can* use it legally in 20 years, you will not be able to upgrade free to version 666 of the Eagle but who cares, your v5 will continue to work.
Wrt free version, you know that Eagle files can be read by Eagle only. That suck big time. Free version might be gone tomorrow, might never be gone, if you chose not to trust the current/future owner of Eagle, because you are, like me, a person that explicitly don't trust companies, or for any other reason, then the only available solutions are:
1. make your own EDA tool
2. go with some GPL/BSD/otheropensourcelicence EDA tool and invest time & money to add features you require and that tool you chose is missing (KiCAD is gaining community base very fast, way faster then gEDA package, lot of ppl joining in, basically the schematic capture is imo better then Eagle, everything else requires a lot of polishing but compared to how much polishing Eagle requires KiCAD ain't that bad at all ... it lacks the scripting functionality of Eagle but since you have a source you can actually embed any functionality directly into KiCAD, no need for external scripts :D )
3. purchase a licence of an commercial EDA tool you like and consider that "what you purchased is what you will get for that money" - consider no free updates nor upgrades ever, so if you get them from time to time (free or with discount) cool, but don't count on that.
Note that apart from Eagle there is number of other free commercial eda tools available, many without limitations of the free Eagle version, some surprisingly good (for e.g. design spark (http://http://www.designspark.com/PCB) is surprisingly good free eda tool with a single flaw and that's "winblows only" .. it actually imports Eagle files, I forgot about it, so there is actually a way to read your eagle files if eagle is gone :D !!! designspark v3 also have a simulation interface so it should be able to talk to spice and other free simulation tools - I have not tried that but .... the gui is 10 times faster and more ergonomic then eagle, it looks better, it is faster .. worth a try .. if you compare it side by side with Eagle, Eagle will lose by a lot)
check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software)
anyhow, I would constrain my self from spreading fud as attm nothing is "known". When Sun purchased MySQL whole bunch of ppl started spreading fud on "what will happen" - nothing did, except some ppl left, some ppl were hired .. not a single other thing changed wrt mysql and mysql's community .. the Oracle purchased Sun, again "they will close MySQL", "they will kill it", "let us hurry and learn pgsql" .. etc etc ... what happened is the best release of MySQL EVER (5.5) with less bugs then any release in mysql's history, the features ppl waited for years were created, bugs 5-6 years old were fixed etc etc ... and yes, if you go to www.oracle.com (http://www.oracle.com) you will not find a single word about how mysql is free and how you can download it, use it for free (under GPL licence), they only talk on oracle.com about commercial/oem licences, subscriptions, trainings etc. etc... but they never killed the GPL side of MySQL, everything is just as it was (many things are even better wrt both gpl and commercial users) ... So IMO it is more then normal that all marketing material farnell now makes about eagle talk about "what you can purchase" and that it does not mention freeware version.... but unless they actually kill the free version and remove the download url's, I'd stay calm :)
Now, as we are all aware - they CAN decide today (or tomorrow or in 3 years) to change licences, remove free version, push price to million dollars per licence if they wish so... You can decide to trust them or not. I personally do not use products with licence that expires. I can survive with "limited time free upgrade", that's ok, but I want to be able to use my licenced app in 20 years from now legally, yeah I can't upgrde but who cares. AFAIK if you now purchase a licence for Eagle v5 you *can* use it legally in 20 years, you will not be able to upgrade free to version 666 of the Eagle but who cares, your v5 will continue to work.
Wrt free version, you know that Eagle files can be read by Eagle only. That suck big time. Free version might be gone tomorrow, might never be gone, if you chose not to trust the current/future owner of Eagle, because you are, like me, a person that explicitly don't trust companies, or for any other reason, then the only available solutions are:
1. make your own EDA tool
2. go with some GPL/BSD/otheropensourcelicence EDA tool and invest time & money to add features you require and that tool you chose is missing (KiCAD is gaining community base very fast, way faster then gEDA package, lot of ppl joining in, basically the schematic capture is imo better then Eagle, everything else requires a lot of polishing but compared to how much polishing Eagle requires KiCAD ain't that bad at all ... it lacks the scripting functionality of Eagle but since you have a source you can actually embed any functionality directly into KiCAD, no need for external scripts :D )
3. purchase a licence of an commercial EDA tool you like and consider that "what you purchased is what you will get for that money" - consider no free updates nor upgrades ever, so if you get them from time to time (free or with discount) cool, but don't count on that.
Note that apart from Eagle there is number of other free commercial eda tools available, many without limitations of the free Eagle version, some surprisingly good (for e.g. design spark (http://http://www.designspark.com/PCB) is surprisingly good free eda tool with a single flaw and that's "winblows only" .. it actually imports Eagle files, I forgot about it, so there is actually a way to read your eagle files if eagle is gone :D !!! designspark v3 also have a simulation interface so it should be able to talk to spice and other free simulation tools - I have not tried that but .... the gui is 10 times faster and more ergonomic then eagle, it looks better, it is faster .. worth a try .. if you compare it side by side with Eagle, Eagle will lose by a lot)
check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software)
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: Shaos on November 13, 2011, 03:30:16 am
Post by: Shaos on November 13, 2011, 03:30:16 am
[quote author="arhi"]well, you can continue to use v5 unlimited right?[/quote]
I was on v4.16 for a very long time until I saw that most of the current libraries/scripts/projects on the Net are for v5 only, so I was "forced" by stream to be switched to v5 - and I expect the same for v6...
P.S. Open source software is a different story - if company that owned this software will die (or abandon its work) we are always free to fork it from last available source base - I'm perfectly OK with that, but Eagle is not open source...
P.P.S. Previous owner of Eagle was software company - so they needed all kind of price tags to survive, but current one is not - it's component distributor and also they have PCB service (if I not mistaken), so may be there is a more sense for them to have Eagle free and earn much more money on side-services as purchasing components by BOM and order PCB production directly from the software...
I was on v4.16 for a very long time until I saw that most of the current libraries/scripts/projects on the Net are for v5 only, so I was "forced" by stream to be switched to v5 - and I expect the same for v6...
P.S. Open source software is a different story - if company that owned this software will die (or abandon its work) we are always free to fork it from last available source base - I'm perfectly OK with that, but Eagle is not open source...
P.P.S. Previous owner of Eagle was software company - so they needed all kind of price tags to survive, but current one is not - it's component distributor and also they have PCB service (if I not mistaken), so may be there is a more sense for them to have Eagle free and earn much more money on side-services as purchasing components by BOM and order PCB production directly from the software...
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: arhi on November 13, 2011, 03:43:05 am
Post by: arhi on November 13, 2011, 03:43:05 am
[quote author="Shaos"]so may be there is a more sense for them to have Eagle free and earn much more money on side-services as purchasing components by BOM and order PCB production directly from the software...[/quote]
Just like I think that every mcu manufacturer should have a best possible C compiler available for their mcu's for free I think every pcb house that can afford it should have pcb capture app that's free. I certainly see a benefit for Farnell not only to keep Eagle free but to make it 100% free and 100% limit free and 100% open source; on the other hand I can, without too much problems, see how manager inside Farnell can make a decision to kill free version and push licence prices 200-300%. There's a valid explanation/pov for both decisions. What they will do - let's wait and c, IMO since we all together really have no clue what their thought process is, we should not spread fud. Now when the decision is made, yes, I do think everyone should hear about it ..
Just like I think that every mcu manufacturer should have a best possible C compiler available for their mcu's for free I think every pcb house that can afford it should have pcb capture app that's free. I certainly see a benefit for Farnell not only to keep Eagle free but to make it 100% free and 100% limit free and 100% open source; on the other hand I can, without too much problems, see how manager inside Farnell can make a decision to kill free version and push licence prices 200-300%. There's a valid explanation/pov for both decisions. What they will do - let's wait and c, IMO since we all together really have no clue what their thought process is, we should not spread fud. Now when the decision is made, yes, I do think everyone should hear about it ..
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: Shaos on November 13, 2011, 03:51:13 am
Post by: Shaos on November 13, 2011, 03:51:13 am
OK, will wait...
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: arhi on November 13, 2011, 04:01:24 am
Post by: arhi on November 13, 2011, 04:01:24 am
It's just my opinion, we'll see what will really happen. I do agree this change can very well be end of Eagle as #1 hobby EDA tool, but let's give those guy's in Farnell chance to do what they planned to do before we start making our own personal decisions.
As I mention many times, I just don't find Eagle "that good" so I don't use it as I want my electronics to be fun, and IMO Eagle is not fun :(. I don't see myself ever using Eagle, but I see this particular moment to be very similar to moment when Sun purchased MySQL (and me working in MySQL at the time, hearing it on big "all employee's" meeting we had in Orlando, was so drugged with some pain meds as I just came out of hospital because of my very bad back, was unsure what I'm hearing ...) ... lot of ppl tried to exploit the moment and started spreading FUD intentionally, many ppl were just confused, scared ... so they started spreading FUD too ... and in reality nothing happened, the whole thing went very smooth and Sun didn't influence how we do things one iota :D ... so just like I hated reading "what will happen with mysql" then, I assume ppl in Eagle team really don't need to read today before any decisions are made public...
As I mention many times, I just don't find Eagle "that good" so I don't use it as I want my electronics to be fun, and IMO Eagle is not fun :(. I don't see myself ever using Eagle, but I see this particular moment to be very similar to moment when Sun purchased MySQL (and me working in MySQL at the time, hearing it on big "all employee's" meeting we had in Orlando, was so drugged with some pain meds as I just came out of hospital because of my very bad back, was unsure what I'm hearing ...) ... lot of ppl tried to exploit the moment and started spreading FUD intentionally, many ppl were just confused, scared ... so they started spreading FUD too ... and in reality nothing happened, the whole thing went very smooth and Sun didn't influence how we do things one iota :D ... so just like I hated reading "what will happen with mysql" then, I assume ppl in Eagle team really don't need to read today before any decisions are made public...
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: bearmos on November 13, 2011, 01:45:30 pm
Post by: bearmos on November 13, 2011, 01:45:30 pm
Eagle has always stated that you need to pay for upgrades between major releases, there's nothing new or evil about this. If you're using commercial software and you want to stay current, you pay the price. It comes down to a simple decision with some trade offs.
i wouldn't worry too much about the lack of advertised free version. . .these decisions are usually made by marketing. . . as long as you can download them.
i wouldn't worry too much about the lack of advertised free version. . .these decisions are usually made by marketing. . . as long as you can download them.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: Shaos on November 13, 2011, 05:55:10 pm
Post by: Shaos on November 13, 2011, 05:55:10 pm
"Major release" usually means not only change of major version number, but major changes in functionality and/or user interface, but Eagle version 5 was almost identical to version 4, at least from user's point of view - the same set of usual bugs, the same mess in libraries etc.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: bearmos on November 14, 2011, 02:23:11 am
Post by: bearmos on November 14, 2011, 02:23:11 am
5 changed the UI look and feel quite a bit, as well as made some really nice additions to assisted manual routing, which was a huge upgrade in PCB layout, imho. Regardless, it's up to the company what version number they're changing, major, minor, etc. So again, you're at their mercy. Sounds like it might be time for you to try out KiCAD :)
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: Shaos on November 14, 2011, 02:44:06 am
Post by: Shaos on November 14, 2011, 02:44:06 am
[quote author="bearmos"]5 changed the UI look and feel quite a bit, as well as made some really nice additions to assisted manual routing, which was a huge upgrade in PCB layout, imho. Regardless, it's up to the company what version number they're changing, major, minor, etc. So again, you're at their mercy. Sounds like it might be time for you to try out KiCAD :)[/quote]
I'm fighting with gEDA right now ;)
I'm fighting with gEDA right now ;)
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: bearmos on November 14, 2011, 03:39:04 am
Post by: bearmos on November 14, 2011, 03:39:04 am
[quote author="Shaos"]I'm fighting with gEDA right now ;)[/quote]
i'm curious to hear how that goes:)
i'm curious to hear how that goes:)
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: Shaos on November 14, 2011, 04:16:25 am
Post by: Shaos on November 14, 2011, 04:16:25 am
[quote author="bearmos"][quote author="Shaos"]I'm fighting with gEDA right now ;)[/quote]
i'm curious to hear how that goes:)[/quote]
The only thing that I don't like in gEDA - there is no back connection between PCB layout and schematics as in Eagle, so you must finalize schematics first and only after that you may create a layout...
i'm curious to hear how that goes:)[/quote]
The only thing that I don't like in gEDA - there is no back connection between PCB layout and schematics as in Eagle, so you must finalize schematics first and only after that you may create a layout...
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: TonyD on November 15, 2011, 02:28:13 pm
Post by: TonyD on November 15, 2011, 02:28:13 pm
[quote author="arhi"]...
Note that apart from Eagle there is number of other free commercial eda tools available, many without limitations of the free Eagle version, some surprisingly good (for e.g. design spark (http://http://www.designspark.com/PCB) is surprisingly good free eda tool with a single flaw and that's "winblows only" .. it actually imports Eagle files, I forgot about it, so there is actually a way to read your eagle files if eagle is gone :D !!! designspark v3 also have a simulation interface so it should be able to talk to spice and other free simulation tools - I have not tried that but .... the gui is 10 times faster and more ergonomic then eagle, it looks better, it is faster .. worth a try .. if you compare it side by side with Eagle, Eagle will lose by a lot)
check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software)[/quote]
I've been using DesignSpark PCB for over a year now and found it to be a very usable package. I found the size limitation (100 x 80mm) in (free) EagleCAD a problem for my bigger designs and swapped to DesignSpark. I've not tried the new simulator interface yet.
Note that apart from Eagle there is number of other free commercial eda tools available, many without limitations of the free Eagle version, some surprisingly good (for e.g. design spark (http://http://www.designspark.com/PCB) is surprisingly good free eda tool with a single flaw and that's "winblows only" .. it actually imports Eagle files, I forgot about it, so there is actually a way to read your eagle files if eagle is gone :D !!! designspark v3 also have a simulation interface so it should be able to talk to spice and other free simulation tools - I have not tried that but .... the gui is 10 times faster and more ergonomic then eagle, it looks better, it is faster .. worth a try .. if you compare it side by side with Eagle, Eagle will lose by a lot)
check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software)[/quote]
I've been using DesignSpark PCB for over a year now and found it to be a very usable package. I found the size limitation (100 x 80mm) in (free) EagleCAD a problem for my bigger designs and swapped to DesignSpark. I've not tried the new simulator interface yet.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: arhi on November 15, 2011, 02:47:01 pm
Post by: arhi on November 15, 2011, 02:47:01 pm
I tried few days ago to load eagle schematic and eagle board into it without success. They advertise they can import eagle but I didn't manage to do that :(
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: ian on November 15, 2011, 03:32:10 pm
Post by: ian on November 15, 2011, 03:32:10 pm
Quote
We can offer three EAGLE Hobbyist licenses (unlimited).
There you have it. Next week we'll be giving these away. Thanks for your ideas!
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: Sjaak on November 15, 2011, 04:56:20 pm
Post by: Sjaak on November 15, 2011, 04:56:20 pm
Cool!
Is it like regular giveaway or with a small challenge/compo?
Is it like regular giveaway or with a small challenge/compo?
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: bearmos on November 15, 2011, 06:11:55 pm
Post by: bearmos on November 15, 2011, 06:11:55 pm
very cool!
i wonder what happens if someone generates sch/pcb with the hobbyist license, then shares those sources here, assuming they fit into the capabilities of the "lite" version. i guess that means that in order for DP to make that board as a "project" and sell it, you'd need to start from scratch?
Also, I wonder what their policy is on library components generated by the hobbyist license, then used in a salable product (this seems like it should be acceptable, since individual components are within the lite license).
i wonder what happens if someone generates sch/pcb with the hobbyist license, then shares those sources here, assuming they fit into the capabilities of the "lite" version. i guess that means that in order for DP to make that board as a "project" and sell it, you'd need to start from scratch?
Also, I wonder what their policy is on library components generated by the hobbyist license, then used in a salable product (this seems like it should be acceptable, since individual components are within the lite license).
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: bearmos on November 15, 2011, 06:15:36 pm
Post by: bearmos on November 15, 2011, 06:15:36 pm
for reference, here's the non-commercial agreement (http://http://www.cadsoft.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Declaration.pdf), required for the hobbyist license:
Quote
DECLARATION
With this declaration I assure that the EAGLE Hobbyist license I bought under my name will be used exclusively for non-commercial purposes. I am aware that files generated with this copy of the program can be identified by CadSoft. I am not part of an educational or non-commercial institution.
Should this copy of the program ever be used for commercial purposes by myself or by another person, I make myself liable to prosecution.
In that case I will have to pay at least the price for the non-limited EAGLE version in addition to the price I paid for the EAGLE Hobbyist license.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: Shaos on November 15, 2011, 07:24:15 pm
Post by: Shaos on November 15, 2011, 07:24:15 pm
it looks like a trap...
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: Sjaak on November 15, 2011, 08:19:43 pm
Post by: Sjaak on November 15, 2011, 08:19:43 pm
[quote author="Shaos"]it looks like a trap...[/quote]
I don't know your definition of a hobbyist, but i don't see a hobyist run a maior pcb design company... I think it is reasonable to have such a license for hobbyist use and 'give' the program away. With 'give away' I mean selling at a reduced price (at cost or less). hobbyist 125$ and commercial use 747$.
If you are growing with your hobby like Ian for example does, you should upgrade to an other which allows commercial use.
I don't know your definition of a hobbyist, but i don't see a hobyist run a maior pcb design company... I think it is reasonable to have such a license for hobbyist use and 'give' the program away. With 'give away' I mean selling at a reduced price (at cost or less). hobbyist 125$ and commercial use 747$.
If you are growing with your hobby like Ian for example does, you should upgrade to an other which allows commercial use.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: Zeta on November 15, 2011, 09:41:02 pm
Post by: Zeta on November 15, 2011, 09:41:02 pm
[quote author="ian"]
There you have it. Next week we'll be giving these away. Thanks for your ideas![/quote]
Great news!!
although I've never been lucky to win any giveaway xD
Quote
We can offer three EAGLE Hobbyist licenses (unlimited).
There you have it. Next week we'll be giving these away. Thanks for your ideas![/quote]
Great news!!
although I've never been lucky to win any giveaway xD
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: dpropicweb on November 15, 2011, 11:48:38 pm
Post by: dpropicweb on November 15, 2011, 11:48:38 pm
[quote author="Shaos"]it looks like a trap...[/quote]
How so?
How so?
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: arhi on November 16, 2011, 01:16:08 am
Post by: arhi on November 16, 2011, 01:16:08 am
hobbyist licence for eagle is imo perfect.
- non profit part can't be an issue for a hobbyis
- if you'r making money with this app - pay the commercial licence, that's more then ok
- the limits
are more then ok, 160x100 is full eurocard sise, and 6 layers is more then any hobbyist need; autorouter is included ... This is imo a perfect gift on a forum like DP :D ... and a very good licence definition for an EDA package.
I'm not a big fan of Eagle but this licence is ok, price is adequate (especially if you get it as a gift) and from what I see on the site you get free upgrade to v6 too (if you get it now).
- non profit part can't be an issue for a hobbyis
- if you'r making money with this app - pay the commercial licence, that's more then ok
- the limits
Quote
It is a single user license that enables all the features of the EAGLE Standard Edition (limited to six signal layers and 160x100mm routing area) with all three modules (Layout+Schematic+Autorouter).
are more then ok, 160x100 is full eurocard sise, and 6 layers is more then any hobbyist need; autorouter is included ... This is imo a perfect gift on a forum like DP :D ... and a very good licence definition for an EDA package.
I'm not a big fan of Eagle but this licence is ok, price is adequate (especially if you get it as a gift) and from what I see on the site you get free upgrade to v6 too (if you get it now).
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: TonyD on November 16, 2011, 11:41:51 am
Post by: TonyD on November 16, 2011, 11:41:51 am
[quote author="arhi"]I tried few days ago to load eagle schematic and eagle board into it without success. They advertise they can import eagle but I didn't manage to do that :([/quote]
Its a bit clunky as it's a two stage process, involving an intermediate design file.
First, in EagleCAD you need to open your design (PCB or schematic) and run then ULP translation script (PCBToIntermediate.ulp or SchematicToIntermediate.ulp) provide by DesignSpark.
Once the design is converted to an intermediate format, start DesignSpark and open the intermediate design. It you can now save it as a DesignSpark PCB design. You can do the same for EagleCAD libraries.
Its a bit clunky as it's a two stage process, involving an intermediate design file.
First, in EagleCAD you need to open your design (PCB or schematic) and run then ULP translation script (PCBToIntermediate.ulp or SchematicToIntermediate.ulp) provide by DesignSpark.
Once the design is converted to an intermediate format, start DesignSpark and open the intermediate design. It you can now save it as a DesignSpark PCB design. You can do the same for EagleCAD libraries.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: arhi on November 16, 2011, 11:49:17 am
Post by: arhi on November 16, 2011, 11:49:17 am
Ah, I was under impression they figured out how to open eagle binary files :( too bad :( ..
Anyhow they are great free solution for what I seen ... only I don't see where they get their money from so I fear what will happen tomorrow, will they decide to start charging or ...
125$ for 160x100x6 is imo great price, especially if Eagle manage to make v6 solve some of the long standing bugs in Eagle ..
Anyhow they are great free solution for what I seen ... only I don't see where they get their money from so I fear what will happen tomorrow, will they decide to start charging or ...
125$ for 160x100x6 is imo great price, especially if Eagle manage to make v6 solve some of the long standing bugs in Eagle ..
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: bearmos on November 16, 2011, 01:52:07 pm
Post by: bearmos on November 16, 2011, 01:52:07 pm
[quote author="arhi"].. only I don't see where they get their money from so I fear what will happen tomorrow, will they decide to start charging or ...
[/quote]
Sounds like it's add-based, more or less. It was made in part by RS Components, so you'll presumably get a very good idea of their product line by using it, as well as have ready access to library files involving RS Components:)
from wikipedia (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DesignSpark_PCB)
[/quote]
Sounds like it's add-based, more or less. It was made in part by RS Components, so you'll presumably get a very good idea of their product line by using it, as well as have ready access to library files involving RS Components:)
from wikipedia (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DesignSpark_PCB)
Quote
Although there is no charge for the software, the user must register with the website to unlock disabled functions and the program displays advertisements which must be acknowledged before the user can begin working.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: arhi on November 16, 2011, 08:41:21 pm
Post by: arhi on November 16, 2011, 08:41:21 pm
yes that makes sense, similar to how I believe Farnell would gain way more if they pushed Eagle to be 100% free (as I do believe their increase in sales would be way higher then the money they get from Eagle licences, especially if they create a direct Eagle BOM -> Farnell order tool for eagle :D )
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: arupbsk on November 17, 2011, 09:28:10 am
Post by: arupbsk on November 17, 2011, 09:28:10 am
@arhi,
Yes they would profit, but also it will save out time. We'll be benefited too.
Yes they would profit, but also it will save out time. We'll be benefited too.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: arhi on November 17, 2011, 09:44:07 am
Post by: arhi on November 17, 2011, 09:44:07 am
Hm, I just received my copy of Elektor (btw if you are not subscribed, I can recommend it, it is IMO best paper magazine wrt electronics today, all other just became a bunch of adds, elector actually consist of great reading material) and I see LabCenter commercial on the whole back page (PROTEUS), full page commercial for DesignSpark on the ~6th page and then on ~37th page there is a full page commercial "elector academy webinars in partnership with element14" (it is free, register on www.elektor.com/webinars (http://www.elektor.com/webinars) if you want to attend, should be fun) but there's no mentioning of Eagle anywhere .. weird as Elektor obviously have some cooperation with Farnell ...
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: Shaos on November 17, 2011, 02:54:56 pm
Post by: Shaos on November 17, 2011, 02:54:56 pm
Eagle disappeared from paper magazines immediately after been purchased at 2009...
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: bearmos on November 23, 2011, 03:18:10 pm
Post by: bearmos on November 23, 2011, 03:18:10 pm
Regarding the: give away post (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/2011/11/22/eagle-cad-licenses-giveaway/)
Its very interesting to see the types of comments on the blog vs. most of the comments in a forum thread like this.
Ahri, its probably good you stepped in there, it seemed like a few other comments after yours were actually worth while. . .I wonder how many people actually read the post (or understand what the differences in the Eagle licenses are, for that matter).
Oh well, there were certainly a few good propositions out there :)
Its very interesting to see the types of comments on the blog vs. most of the comments in a forum thread like this.
Ahri, its probably good you stepped in there, it seemed like a few other comments after yours were actually worth while. . .I wonder how many people actually read the post (or understand what the differences in the Eagle licenses are, for that matter).
Oh well, there were certainly a few good propositions out there :)
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: arhi on November 23, 2011, 03:28:53 pm
Post by: arhi on November 23, 2011, 03:28:53 pm
That's the usual difference between participans and users ... 90% of those "gimme gimme" would not ever shared any pcb they created with that Eagle, not to mention that at least 30% of those would not even start Eagle more then 2-3 times total ..
Also, I don't see a single project there that requires this licence... as what licence gives you
- 6 layers - well, hobby is 2 layers, if you can afford to make 6 layer pcb, you can afford to purchase licence
- autorouter - autorouter in eagle is not worth mentioning + there is a free router that works with eagle (and works better then eagle's autorouter) so again irrelevant for hobby
- 100x160 - this is the only thing that this licence brings that is relevant for this discussion, and I didn't see any project on the blog comments that makes sense that requires this board size.
I really expected to see some interesting projects there ... I was very very disappointed with what I seen (as you could read from mine comment there)
Also, I don't see a single project there that requires this licence... as what licence gives you
- 6 layers - well, hobby is 2 layers, if you can afford to make 6 layer pcb, you can afford to purchase licence
- autorouter - autorouter in eagle is not worth mentioning + there is a free router that works with eagle (and works better then eagle's autorouter) so again irrelevant for hobby
- 100x160 - this is the only thing that this licence brings that is relevant for this discussion, and I didn't see any project on the blog comments that makes sense that requires this board size.
I really expected to see some interesting projects there ... I was very very disappointed with what I seen (as you could read from mine comment there)
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: anton.todorov on November 23, 2011, 04:00:21 pm
Post by: anton.todorov on November 23, 2011, 04:00:21 pm
I think the best project to give such license is to someone willing to create something like OBLS XXL* with largest spartan3e fpga possible for most memory depth. I do not look at xilinx docs, but if it uses only 2 rows of balls at the edges of BGA it is possible with 2 layer design but 4 layer is better IMO.
(*) the OBLS XL is reserved in my mind for the 500 gates fpga...
(*) the OBLS XL is reserved in my mind for the 500 gates fpga...
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: bearmos on November 23, 2011, 04:22:36 pm
Post by: bearmos on November 23, 2011, 04:22:36 pm
Some appeared to mention multiple schematic sheets, which isn't a necessity , necessarily (you can always use a larger single sheet) but is certainly nice to have.
Honestly, I didn't read through all of the posts. Although some of the multi-layer stuff might be worth considering.
[quote author="arhi"]6 layers - well, hobby is 2 layers, if you can afford to make 6 layer pcb, you can afford to purchase licence[/quote]
I see where you're coming from here. Although, if I were to have a project that required multiple layers and I also had to retool my CAD to do it, I'd probably be more likely to move forward if I got the CAD portion for free, then I'd had more of the budget to put towards the PCB and parts.
I've done several projects that appear to be more expensive than they are, but since I was able to scavenge some of the parts, it took the total cost down to something that was "reasonable" (i.e. high enough wife acceptance factor (W.A.F)) ;-)
Although seemingly silly to some, a project with a total cost of $400 might never get accomplished, but take it down to $300 and it now might be within reach.
Some other types of projects that would greatly benefit from the hobby license would be anything with sensitive analog signals (not sure that there were too many (or any) of those on the blog), where routing is tight and a true ground plane is required.
[quote author="anton.todorov"]but if it uses only 2 rows of balls at the edges of BGA it is possible with 2 layer design but 4 layer is better IMO.[/quote]
I could certainly see this.
Honestly, I didn't read through all of the posts. Although some of the multi-layer stuff might be worth considering.
[quote author="arhi"]6 layers - well, hobby is 2 layers, if you can afford to make 6 layer pcb, you can afford to purchase licence[/quote]
I see where you're coming from here. Although, if I were to have a project that required multiple layers and I also had to retool my CAD to do it, I'd probably be more likely to move forward if I got the CAD portion for free, then I'd had more of the budget to put towards the PCB and parts.
I've done several projects that appear to be more expensive than they are, but since I was able to scavenge some of the parts, it took the total cost down to something that was "reasonable" (i.e. high enough wife acceptance factor (W.A.F)) ;-)
Although seemingly silly to some, a project with a total cost of $400 might never get accomplished, but take it down to $300 and it now might be within reach.
Some other types of projects that would greatly benefit from the hobby license would be anything with sensitive analog signals (not sure that there were too many (or any) of those on the blog), where routing is tight and a true ground plane is required.
[quote author="anton.todorov"]but if it uses only 2 rows of balls at the edges of BGA it is possible with 2 layer design but 4 layer is better IMO.[/quote]
I could certainly see this.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: Sjaak on November 23, 2011, 04:42:50 pm
Post by: Sjaak on November 23, 2011, 04:42:50 pm
[quote author="arhi"]That's the usual difference between participans and users ... 90% of those "gimme gimme" would not ever shared any pcb they created with that Eagle, not to mention that at least 30% of those would not even start Eagle more then 2-3 times total ..
Also, I don't see a single project there that requires this licence... as what licence gives you
- 6 layers - well, hobby is 2 layers, if you can afford to make 6 layer pcb, you can afford to purchase licence
- autorouter - autorouter in eagle is not worth mentioning + there is a free router that works with eagle (and works better then eagle's autorouter) so again irrelevant for hobby
- 100x160 - this is the only thing that this licence brings that is relevant for this discussion, and I didn't see any project on the blog comments that makes sense that requires this board size.
I really expected to see some interesting projects there ... I was very very disappointed with what I seen (as you could read from mine comment there)[/quote]
You forget the multi page schematic feature. You can paste every thing on 1 page (with some separation like a normal document borders) but multiple pages seems a bit easier to read. I usually draw it in my head so for me it doesn't matter.
The few projects that justify a larger board are some of the nixie projects that are in the comments. I personally have some ideas that would benefit from a larger and multilayer board but I'm sorta part of DP which would put me and DP in a conflict situation.
Edit: Besides that i think i need a commercial license in the near feature..
Also, I don't see a single project there that requires this licence... as what licence gives you
- 6 layers - well, hobby is 2 layers, if you can afford to make 6 layer pcb, you can afford to purchase licence
- autorouter - autorouter in eagle is not worth mentioning + there is a free router that works with eagle (and works better then eagle's autorouter) so again irrelevant for hobby
- 100x160 - this is the only thing that this licence brings that is relevant for this discussion, and I didn't see any project on the blog comments that makes sense that requires this board size.
I really expected to see some interesting projects there ... I was very very disappointed with what I seen (as you could read from mine comment there)[/quote]
You forget the multi page schematic feature. You can paste every thing on 1 page (with some separation like a normal document borders) but multiple pages seems a bit easier to read. I usually draw it in my head so for me it doesn't matter.
The few projects that justify a larger board are some of the nixie projects that are in the comments. I personally have some ideas that would benefit from a larger and multilayer board but I'm sorta part of DP which would put me and DP in a conflict situation.
Edit: Besides that i think i need a commercial license in the near feature..
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: Zeta on November 23, 2011, 04:49:46 pm
Post by: Zeta on November 23, 2011, 04:49:46 pm
[quote author="bearmos"]Some appeared to mention multiple schematic sheets, which isn't a necessity , necessarily (you can always use a larger single sheet) but is certainly nice to have.[/quote]
Nothing it the blog post mentions that any of the features of the Hobbyist licence has to be "necesary" for the completion of the proyect, but it mentions that it should "benefit" from it.
[quote author="bearmos"]
Honestly, I didn't read through all of the posts. Although some of the multi-layer stuff might be worth considering.
[/quote]
Honestly, on this giveaway (just like on most DP giveaways) I have seen lots of complicated proyect proposals that I bet will never come to life, I would even doubt most have the skills required. I fear it somehow becomes a "who comes up with the most ridiculously complicated proyect" contest.
Nothing it the blog post mentions that any of the features of the Hobbyist licence has to be "necesary" for the completion of the proyect, but it mentions that it should "benefit" from it.
[quote author="bearmos"]
Honestly, I didn't read through all of the posts. Although some of the multi-layer stuff might be worth considering.
[/quote]
Honestly, on this giveaway (just like on most DP giveaways) I have seen lots of complicated proyect proposals that I bet will never come to life, I would even doubt most have the skills required. I fear it somehow becomes a "who comes up with the most ridiculously complicated proyect" contest.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: arupbsk on November 23, 2011, 05:54:12 pm
Post by: arupbsk on November 23, 2011, 05:54:12 pm
Well, I have one current design that doesn't fit on the 100x80(or 100x100) size of eagle light.
It's a basically a power supply unit. viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3154 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3154)
Still I have to add few parts, but already the board size exhausted.
It's a basically a power supply unit. viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3154 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3154)
Still I have to add few parts, but already the board size exhausted.
Quote
- 100x160 - this is the only thing that this licence brings that is relevant for this discussion, and I didn't see any project on the blog comments that makes sense that requires this board size.Well, this is only what I need. But not the other things.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: alexwhittemore on November 25, 2011, 04:42:43 am
Post by: alexwhittemore on November 25, 2011, 04:42:43 am
Re: need vs want schematic sheets: in terms of getting a board designed, fabbed and stuffed, you're right, you just don't need multiple sheets. However, I HAVE encountered situations where, for the sake of design documentation, multiple sheets are the difference between a schematic you can send in PDF and expect a reviewer to understand, vs a design that is functionally impossible to read. The best you could hope for is to split your schematic up on the one sheet such that it prints out just right spread across multiple pages (of paper or of a PDF), and that's near impossible to get good results from.
I know it's not very typical for hobbyists, but among engineering student groups where I send most of my time, we always try to get peers and professors to review designs both as a best practice to carry over into our later careers and as learning opportunities.
I know it's not very typical for hobbyists, but among engineering student groups where I send most of my time, we always try to get peers and professors to review designs both as a best practice to carry over into our later careers and as learning opportunities.
Title: Re: Possible Eagle license giveaway? You decide.
Post by: bearmos on November 27, 2011, 03:46:27 am
Post by: bearmos on November 27, 2011, 03:46:27 am
[quote author="bearmos"]Some appeared to mention multiple schematic sheets, which isn't a necessity , necessarily (you can always use a larger single sheet) but is certainly nice to have.[/quote]
This need vs. want comment was worded in a way that was responding to an earlier comment made. I certainly agree that multi-paged schematics are really nice to have (I create and use them regularly). Heck, I'll go as far as to say they are a requirement on any larger sized project, as much as functions are a requirement for readable code!
I also realize that there was nothing in the guidelines that stated a project/person had to have some hard requirement for the additions that the hobbyist license provided. Again, there was a lot of wording in there that was responding to an earlier comment ahri had posted, I just hadn't quoted it (I didn't think that many people would be reading it, honestly).
At any rate, I hope the licenses are put to good use and look forward to reading/seeing the projects created with them! I was really nice of Cadsoft to provide DP with the alternative licenses they did.
This need vs. want comment was worded in a way that was responding to an earlier comment made. I certainly agree that multi-paged schematics are really nice to have (I create and use them regularly). Heck, I'll go as far as to say they are a requirement on any larger sized project, as much as functions are a requirement for readable code!
I also realize that there was nothing in the guidelines that stated a project/person had to have some hard requirement for the additions that the hobbyist license provided. Again, there was a lot of wording in there that was responding to an earlier comment ahri had posted, I just hadn't quoted it (I didn't think that many people would be reading it, honestly).
At any rate, I hope the licenses are put to good use and look forward to reading/seeing the projects created with them! I was really nice of Cadsoft to provide DP with the alternative licenses they did.