Dangerous Prototypes

In development => Project logs => Topic started by: arhi on June 22, 2011, 06:19:01 pm

Title: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron driver
Post by: arhi on June 22, 2011, 06:19:01 pm
I found few minutes to redraw my soldering station driver so I can send it to itead before I go to vacation :) ... software is still not done (the old one works but is not using encoder, not reading thermocouple properly etc etc ..)

Upgrades from v1
1. thermocouple is read properly. The circuit used to get the K-type to go 0-5V came from microchip's app note
2. 3 buttons are replaced with rotary encoder with button
3. DS18B20 is added to read ambient temperature (thermistor returns difference in temp between hot and cold join so you need to know temperature of the cold join to know what is the temp of the tip. I decided to go with DS18B20 because I just figured out I have 10+ of those in the drawer)

Software upgrades (not done yet)
1. deal with hardware upgrades
2. use PI or PID instead of simple hysteresis to control tip temperature

Future upgrades
1. make nicer PCB (I make ugly pcb's... especially when dealing with slow speeds like here)
2. there are some free pins that might be used for something ..


ONE SUPER IMPORTANT THING!!!
SID do not have a FUSE on the power input. You MUST HAVE FUSE!!! I do not use fuse on PCB because all fuses I have are for "wires" so I have 2.5A glass fuse on the wire bringing 24 VAC into the PCB. BE SURE TO ADD THAT FUSE. 2.1-2.5 A is what you need depending on what type of LCD you use. The whole circuit (48W heater + everything on board + standard lcd) takes 2100 mA MAX. On top of that you need current for lcd back light. I have here LCD's that pull 30 mA and I have some that pull 280 mA for the back light, and I used some earlier that pull a whole amper!!! Anyhow whatever you do ADD A DARN FUSE TO THE POWER INPUT!!! DO NOT TURN ON SID WITHOUT IT!!



LOOK HERE FOR UPGRADES

PIC16F690 BASED LATEST VERSION SCHEMATIC (NO PCB AVAILABLE) (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2457&start=180#p30927)

PIC18F2550 BASED LATEST VERSION SCHEMATIC AND PCB (http://https://sourceforge.net/projects/arhimed-sid/files/)

PIC18F2550 BASED LATEST VERSION HEX AND COF (http://https://sourceforge.net/projects/arhimed-sid/files/)

SID source is moved to SourceForge so available there (http://http://sid.crsndoo.com/)

CASES (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2457&start=225#p32093)
DangerousPrototypes Version of the Soldering Iron Driver (all trough hole) (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Patrick:_Soldering_iron_driver_v1_development)




















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Title: Re: HAKKO soldering pencil driver
Post by: ian on June 27, 2011, 09:44:04 am
I really like the idea of doing this. I can't wait to see how it turns out.
Title: Re: HAKKO soldering pencil driver
Post by: arhi on June 27, 2011, 12:14:57 pm
well the old driver I made 2y ago still works like a charm ... this is just an upgrade that I will test in august when I'm back from vac.
Title: Re: HAKKO soldering pencil driver
Post by: arhi on August 24, 2011, 07:12:39 pm
PCB's arrived from SEED. Not sure why but I was unable to locate "e-tested" ones. Half was taped with a paper so there definitely are 2 groups of pcb's but which ones are tested - beats me :D

Now, as usual the pcb's look great :) (taken into account that there is a lot of leave way in my design, I think this board is 10/10).

When I disassembled my old driver I found (idiot) that I have on the toroid a 6VAC output and 24VAC output and not only a single VAC output for everything so I will revise the PCB to be able to use this feature too. Anyhow I replaced the toroid with a single 12VAC one as 24VAC is too  much for the 7805 (I actually use BT05T but same thing just bit better) and 24VAC is also too much for the pencil; it works but heats too fast too far :D

I assembled some quick firmware and - it works :)

The major issue I see with it is that k-type thermocouple is in the heater so the temperature of the tip is impossible to know with some significant accuracy + time it takes for heat to propagate from heater trough to the tip is significant unknown value :(

The driver actually works like a charm - if you take the "numbers" on display as some "arbitrary value" and not temperature in C :D. The tip temperature is held pretty good and it all works great, it's just that "values" are meaningless. The 500C heater temp is actually around 220C on the tip ... I'll see if there's anything to be done wrt that problem but most probably some "custom calibration" is the way to go.

Attached all files required to reproduce the controller. PCB/Schematic are made in PROTEUS (pdf files also available as is gerber), firmware in CSC PICC.
Title: Re: HAKKO soldering pencil driver
Post by: arhi on August 24, 2011, 07:18:22 pm
how it "looks" like
Title: Re: HAKKO soldering pencil driver
Post by: arhi on August 24, 2011, 09:02:56 pm
upgrades for next version of pcb:

firmware updates (proper firmware still required):
Title: Re: HAKKO soldering pencil driver
Post by: tempmj on August 24, 2011, 11:08:53 pm
[quote author="arhi"]upgrades for next version of pcb:

[/quote]

HA! It looks like stonehenge.  I love it!
Title: Re: HAKKO soldering pencil driver
Post by: arhi on August 25, 2011, 12:09:27 am
yeah looks bit like it ... especially as both R10 and R17 with the mcp in the middle :D
Title: Re: HAKKO soldering pencil driver
Post by: arhi on August 25, 2011, 12:12:34 am
hm, I'm getting fast in KiCad but it seriously misses some required options like "export to PDF" for example :( ... and middle mouse for panning is also ...

anyhow, if anyone want schematic in KiCad, here it is. There's no PCB made for it (if you make one please share) as I seriously hate the sch->pcb process in KiCad so will not be using it to make PCB (not ever unless they seriously change something in the flow)
Title: Re: HAKKO soldering pencil driver
Post by: tayken on August 25, 2011, 05:06:49 am
Nice work arhi!

By the way, the taped ones are e-tested ones. They should have a mark on the side.
Title: Re: HAKKO soldering pencil driver
Post by: arhi on August 25, 2011, 06:00:17 am
[quote author="tayken"]Nice work arhi![/quote]
thanks :)

Now I just need to find a source of this "pencils". There is a huge "open market" (mixture of flee market and regular stores but all on big open field) near Belgrade and some Bulgarians and Romanians are selling these pencils. They have no markings on them but are same construction as hakko 907 esd handle, take same tips (I purchase original hakko tips and use with my irons)... They work 24VAC 1.7A so 40W. The "QUICK 907A" handle I have on my main soldering station (analog) is 50W one so similar, also hakko knockoff...

Anyhow I will give these boards to my friends as I really needed only one. Thing is I really should make double AC input as sending 24VAC to 7805 or BA05T or any other 3pin regulator ain't gonna work properly. Not sure if removing 3 diodes and using only D3 while shortening D2 would help. It will be much more ripple but maybe regulator would have it easier :D ....

[quote author="tayken"]By the way, the taped ones are e-tested ones. They should have a mark on the side.[/quote]

hm well the one I used is from the "untaped" bunch :D works like a charm :D i see a small marking on a side, looks like graphite pen or something else very thin. This is the first batch from seed I did, I used ITead so far and they always came marked with a thick red marker on a side :D, not that it matters :D (I switched to seed for pcb's as seed allows payment with ccard compared to itead that only allows paypal).
Title: Re: HAKKO soldering pencil driver (907 ESD)
Post by: arhi on August 25, 2011, 06:06:59 am
I just figured out that on ebay this pencils are 13$ :D
for e.g.:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Soldering-Stati ... 640wt_1398 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Soldering-Station-Iron-Handle-HAKKO-907-ESD-936-NEW-/250878726257?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a69899071#ht_3640wt_1398)
Title: Re: HAKKO soldering pencil driver (907 ESD)
Post by: arhi on August 25, 2011, 07:37:52 am
Here's the PCB v2.2 (and schematic to follow)
Title: Re: HAKKO soldering pencil driver (907 ESD)
Post by: arhi on August 25, 2011, 09:55:17 am
This temperature readout is messing with my head so I decided to do some testing. I attached real K-type probe to the sensor input and heated/cooled water with sensor in (and another commercial temperature monitor in same water) and this rig show 0.2C accurate results from 30C to 90C (have not tested outside that range).

Now I removed the metal parts of the iron and submerged the ceramic heater in the hot water (60C) and the readout show values from 115 all up to 200C .. so it definitely seems that inside this heater is not K-type thermocouple as ppl online suggest. The sensor do generate some voltage but it is definetely not Ktype thermocouple. I do have another soldering iron that does have a thermocouple and that one behaves perfectly.

I found schematic for the HAKKO 936 (it uses same 907 pencil) and from what I can read they are using sensor in a feedback loop on the op-amp so they are definitely using this sensor as a NTC/PTC with few op-amps to linearize it. So my initial design (where I actually used that sensor as thermistor and not thermocouple) was correct. This board will work with k-type ok (and with j-type too) but for HAKKO pencil it's not the one you want to use it with
Title: Re: HAKKO soldering pencil driver (907 ESD)
Post by: arhi on August 25, 2011, 05:13:05 pm
hm solomon pencils (also super great quality) work with ktype, ordered one pencil to test this with it
Title: Re: HAKKO soldering pencil driver
Post by: bearmos on August 26, 2011, 03:00:39 pm
[quote author="arhi"]hm, I'm getting fast in KiCad but it seriously misses some required options like "export to PDF" for example :([/quote]

if you're on a windows box, you can try out cute PDF writer (http://http://www.cutepdf.com/Products/CutePDF/writer.asp).  Just make sure not to install the yahoo toolbar!  It works quite well for the simple stuff - winds up looking just like another printer.
Title: Re: HAKKO soldering pencil driver (907 ESD)
Post by: arhi on August 26, 2011, 10:59:55 pm
KiCad runs natively on my linux desktop and proteus runs trough wine
no widows here
Title: Re: HAKKO soldering pencil driver (907 ESD)
Post by: bearmos on August 27, 2011, 04:39:29 am
didn't think so, but figured i'd offer just in case. . .

this project looks great, btw!
Title: Re: HAKKO soldering pencil driver (907 ESD)
Post by: arhi on August 28, 2011, 06:51:15 am
[quote author="bearmos"]this project looks great, btw![/quote]

it will be when it start working.

I am a complete idiot with this project but .. it's not the first time I do a same mistake. Without checking out I trusted someone on something and that someone was obviously talking from his "where sun don't shine"... I use this hakko pencils (907 ESD) for years and they work like crazy (and most of ones I have are cheap knockoff's, I only have one original hakko pencil)... I have bunch of tips (more then 50 I think) of different type and size (unfortunately most of them are fine tip cone that are fairly useless for normal work but..). The driver I made years back use to treat the sensor as PTC. It's not any standard PTC I was able to find (not PT20 like in Weller nor PT50 nor PT100 like in bunch of other sensors) but it has some (pretty linear but) crazy curve (approx 25C 12R, 250C 36R, 300C 40R, 450C 52R). Now few months ago a "person I used to trust" told me I made a mistake and hakko has "for sure" K-type sensor - so I designed this new board in order to get "precise readings". Of course it does not work with HAKKO as darn sensor IS PTC and the idiot I was talking to was thinking about SOLOMON SL10, SL20 and SL30 soldering pencils because they look like (not to me but to him) like HAKKO pencils so he thought they are the same :(.

I ordered one SOLOMON (http://http://soldering.com.tw/products.html) pencil and it will hopefully arrive on Tuesday (who knows maybe on Monday but I don't have hopes for that), they are also very good pencils, and can be found pretty cheap (http://http://www.a1parts.com/solomon/index.html). I know they are pretty popular in Europe. In USA they are sold under different names (solomon is actually OEM factory so they produce irons for many different brands, popular brands that are actually solomon in usa are Elanco and Tenma and probably many more only I do not live in USA so don't really know :D )

Anyhow, even if this works with solomon 1/1 (and there's no reason why it would not) I need to modify this driver to work with HAKKO too as originally intended as I have load of hakko pencils and load of hakko tips, and for solomon I will have a single pencil with one or two tips only ...

The idea I'm attm working on is to make adapter that will connect on one side with HAKKO PTC sensor and output mV values like K-type thermocuple. It would allow to keep the current board and with small add on board and software modification I could control both type of pencils with same controller :).

So far it looks doable :). For now I added to firmware option to use or not to use DS18B20 as I would not need "ambient" temperature with HAKKO and I will need it with Solomon.... but let me solve the hardware first and then I'll work on the software bit more. If it all works I'll make a new pcb with "dual input" so that you do not need "external" converted for hakko....
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on August 29, 2011, 11:53:23 am
And now finally - working

Here's the firmware version 2.7 that support both Solomon and Hakko pencils.

It uses original PCB (one that expects input from K-type thermocouple) only if you connect the HAKKO 907 pencil you need to add few wires :D

0. connect sensor to sensor- and sensor+ just like solomon, so J1-1 and J1-2
1. you need to connect Sensor- (J1 PIN2) to GND (J3 PIN3) with a piece of wire
2. you need to add ~15K resistor between Sensor+ (J1 PIN1) and Vdd (J3 PIN1). On my rig I added here a 10k resistor (heatshrinked) + 10k trimmer and turned trimmer so that total resistance is 15k

That's all you need to change wrt hardware.

When you power up the board the encoder will change the target temp.
If your encoder is increasing/decreasing values in wrong direction swap wires on JP1 and JP2 (swap encoder A and encoder B wires).
You enter menu by pressing the button. I use separate button but if you have encoder with button embedded go with it :) it is how it is meant to be used. I had a few encoders with button but I could not find them anywhere in the house.

When you enter menu the "SETUP MENU" will show. If you then turn the knob and press button you will exit it, but if you just press button again you will enter menu. Note that menu will save all changes you make, every time!

First menu option is POWER ON TEMP. This is the value your target temp will be set at when you power on your iron. I set in HEX default value to be 200C as it's just below solder melting point so from there you can easily move to any target you like.

You go to next option (and save currently selected one to eeprom) by pressing button

Second option is HYSTERESIS, here you just define a hysteresis in C

Then there is option "USE DS18B20"
If you select YES here, the soldering iron driver will assume that sensor input is K-type thermocouple and that J3-2 is DS18B20 measuring temperature of the cold joint.

If you select NO here, the soldering iron driver will assume that sensor input is a voltage divider (amplified 240 times by the mcp917 on board) and will calculate the temperature using simple T = offset + slope * ADC. You can change the OFFSET value trough next option in menu (available only if USE DS18B20 is set to NO) but you can't change the slope value.
Slope value is stored as a 32bit float in eeprom positions 7-10 and value stored is 3.428571429. This is the calculated value from few hakko pencils I have here. It's maybe not 100% precise as measuring temperature of the tip ain't nearly as easy as one might think (as idea is to measure in 200-400C range).. the IC thermometer show's ridiculous values (probably because of the shiny tip or because measurement area is too small), the contact thermometers expect to have good contact area and shiny pointy tip ain't really a perfect choice :( .. anyhow, it is a 32bit float on that location so anyone with pickit2 can easily change the value. I didn't add posibility to change slope variable in firmware because PICC asked for too much flash in order to implement it .. and this is just a small 16F690 :)

Anyhow, my HAKKO pencil now works with it. And it works nicely. Today or tomorrow SOLOMON will arrive but I see no reason for it not to work immediately :)

I'll add the voltage divider + jumper on a next revision of the PCB but I'm very pleased how this works as is :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on August 30, 2011, 09:37:28 am
And here's the V3.0 of the pcb (with v2.7 of the firmware) .. tested and working like a charm ... Still some room for improvement but .. so far so good :)

Licence: public domain
Author: me myself and I with the little help of my friends

Manual:

V3.0 changelog

If someone draw this is KiCAD (pcb, I attacked the schematic) please upload to this thread.

Archive attached contains
that's all folks :) I don't think there will be any more changes wrt PCB, only few more releases of the firmware (maybe I implement some PID control, but looks like it's going to be tough)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on August 30, 2011, 09:41:36 am
btw I didn't manage to get everything to fit on 5x5cm (big connectors and 2xto220) so I let it fit on 10x10cm as there's no real benefit in 6x6cm (when it cost same as 10x10) ... All the trough hole devices can also be smd so maybe with some DCDC instead of 7805 and some smd triak this would fit on 5x5cm .. (as then only a single 24VAC supply is required ... not sure .. if someone want to try .. all sources are there and I'm available for help too )
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on August 30, 2011, 12:46:03 pm
kicad
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on August 30, 2011, 12:59:48 pm
Thanks for the schematic image. I was just getting latest kicad to take a look. This is a great project. I want to do one!

I have dreams of a PIC24F64GB002 version. Plenty of room and power for float, USB updates, and still available in DIP.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on August 30, 2011, 01:15:52 pm
:D there's a pdf of the schematic in the main archive: download/file.php?id=4766 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=4766)

PIC24F64GB002 is really too much for a soldering iron controller :D ...

I am planning on making a good hot plate controller sometime in near future and that's where similar chip can be very useful... only not sure if it has enough pins. I wanted to use 5 or more sensors for the plate, heater control etc etc + some tft lcd to show everything nicely, SD card to store profiles ... usb is probably just going to be for debugging (or not at all).

This soldering controller just allows me to have few more soldering irons cheap so I don't have to ever change tip again :D (I hate when I need thinner tip for some work, then fat for something else and then miniwave for smd .. )... this way I can have 3-4 different tips always handy :D.

I might (depends on some packages I'm expecting in next few weeks) decide to make a "multi pencil driver" - so similar thing only that controls 4-5 pencils from the same box. Saves desk space etc etc ... in that case I'd go with something bigger then 16f690 :D .. but not sure if DSpic or 24F are really required, maybe some 18F is a cheaper choice.. (I used 16F690 for this project because I have few of them lying around and I don't have what to use them for since I stopped purchasing 8bit mcu's completely, so I just want to use what I have on stock :D ) ... this itead's 5pcb for 5$ option is going to be nice, I now have 9 pcb's of v2.0 that are really not "that good" (usable but ..)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on August 30, 2011, 02:31:36 pm
Quote
I am planning on making a good hot plate controller

That was kinda my thought - reflow oven options. I suppose that needs a nicer LCD for the profile display. Hotplate is probably better, I think most people prefer those, I thought even big places like SparkFun used to use them. To start I just want to try my own iron controller though :)

Could the pencil type selection be config option? For thermistor ground JP4 with a transistor and source from a 5V PWM signal? Maybe directly from PIC pin?

Is the design partial to a 18B20? They seem expensive when I price them (besides samples), and 1-wire is a pain. Microchip has cheap analog thermometers that I have in my junk box (To-92 as well).

The 24F is super overkill :) It has a great number of accessories for mischievous fun though. Lots of PWMs for LCD contrast and backlight (auto) adjustment :) For a one-off personal project, it is in the junk box too.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on August 30, 2011, 05:44:35 pm
The oven and plate should have same controller (that's why I mentioned 5+ sensors).. but the software is challenging option there, hw is fairly simple :D .. I know when I start looking at that project I'll chose proper parts and not "what I have lying around" :D

The pencil type, well, in theory yes, but it's not that you want to connect and disconnect 2 different pencils during work. It's more likely that you will make that selection only once. Also it was a fastest hack to make my current 10 pcb's work with hakko pencils :D (basically I attached a wire from TK- to ground and a resistor from TK+ to vdd)...

wrt 18b20 I had 5 of them sitting in a small box under my monitor and I think I have 10 more lying around .. used to use 1wire a lot in my projects .. it is pretty reliable bus and those buggers work great. In theory one could use analog devices or even a simple thermistor (I use NTC's in most of my products, as those I purchase in 100s to get the price down) to get the current temp value .. With analog devices there's even a way to link the analog thermometer directly to the output of the ktype amplifier to get safe signal directly into pic but it was just too much work :)

The 24F .. donno, I have few 16bit pics lying around 24hj128gp502, 33fj12mc202, 33fj128mc802, 33fj128gp802 ... was thinking about using one of those .. 24f64gb002 is also nice (cannot find it in my drawers, I was sure I had one) ... I also have some nice touch screen tft's from itead (or were there from sure .. I think they were from itead) that I planned to use with this project ... but .. as I mentioned attm all I have is short time between real work so I think this project will have to wait few weeks. It is next in line on my project todo list :)
Title: OLD-Skool solution to Soldering Iron Temperature Control
Post by: EasternStarGeek on August 30, 2011, 10:52:35 pm
OK, so here's a quicky solution to a recent problem:

[attachment=0]

Here you see an XYTronic 200GX iron that I purchased at a local commercial supply shop for US$19.00.  It's a good iron with very nice interchangeable tips, but it runs way HOT at it's rated voltage of 120VAC.

The solution is a Lutron 500W incandescent lamp dimmer, junction box, neon panel lamp and hacked extension cord- all of which cost me about $16.00 at the local Home Improvement store.  Yes, it's ugly, and it is open-loop control, but it does the job.

As a side benefit, it works great with my Dremel tool, also!

Necessity is the Mother of Invention!
http://http://easternstargeek.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on August 31, 2011, 03:17:03 am
Using a dimmer to control cheap soldering irons was always a good trick, especially since dimmers could be picked up for a few $$ in "all for a dollar" stores .. There's also another trick that works with most of cheap soldering irons - inside the handle just add a single 1n4007 before you bring in the 240VAC (or 120VAC if that's your network voltage), it will work great.

The problem is that you still don't have a variable temperature device, with a dimmer you can make it heat up slower, but it will not keep the temperature, if you want to solder some precise stuff you want to have more control over it :)..

I have 2 irons that go directly to mains, one is weller with some weird temperature control (no idea how it works, you put some tip inside and depending on what tip you use it sets on that temperature?! - no regulation on the iron itself) and other that is just a "will get as hot as I can if left unatended" type ... the second one I use with dimmer and it works ok for occasional "solder back adsl wires at father's house as he pulled them out of the wall" and similar repairs .. but I'd never try to solder a qfp with it :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: EasternStarGeek on August 31, 2011, 03:40:39 am
I also have a Weller soldering station, of exactly the type you mentioned.  The regulation method is really quite clever- buried in the tip is a permanent magnet that has been formulated to have a Curie point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curie_point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curie_point) equal to the desired temperature.  In the barrel of the iron is a magnetic (reed?) switch.  When the iron is below the set temperature, the magnet pulls in the switch, energizing the resistance heater.  When the Curie temperature is exceeded, the magnetism goes away, the switch opens, and the iron cools.
Rinse, wash, and repeat!

The nice thing about my dimmer is that I can crank it all the way up to rapidly heat a cold iron, then dial it back to any number of arbitrary marks.  When the heat lost by the iron equals the heat gained by the element, the iron's temperature will stop rising and reach equalibrium.  More power in raises the equalibrium point.  I find this suffices for soldering small items that have a low thermal mass compared to the tip.

Obviously, there are plenty of situations where precise closed-loop control is necessary, but I rarely do that kind of work (mostly because my eyesight is so poor!)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on August 31, 2011, 06:41:01 am
Yes I agree it is quite clever (had no idea there's a magnet in the tip :D), but problem is changing tip takes time. If they used tips like ERSA where you can change tip in a second without turning the iron off it would be ok but they don't (at least not on the iron I have, you have to wait it to cool off before you replace the tip)

Anyhow solomon irons are very good quality, the tips last long and have good thermal mass. They way it is designed it allows heat from heater to go to the tip super fast. The spare pencils/handles/irons are available for 10-20$ (Solomon,  Elanco, Tenma ...) with a simple driver like this one (time to make 20min tops when you have pcb, cost to make below 20$ including ordering 5 boards from ITEAD, LCD and all other parts) you can utilize these cheap spare parts as a soldering iron, and this type of controller is basically better / more customizable then original drivers. Now, this all makes sense assuming you already have a 24VAC 50VA (or stronger) source at home or that you can salvage it from somewhere. I for e.g. have bunch of  24VAC 60-100VA transformers from some old 3com hub's and switches lying around .. so I utilize those... If you need to purchase transformer, depending on where you are you might better get a ready made knockoff of HAKKO or some other soldering station as they go for about 80$ on ebay... and when I checked 50VA 24VAC transformer was in the 40$ range so it's cutting it pretty close to make the whole device yourself compare to purchasing ready made one. Not to mention housing .. this is for e.g. the box I'm using now (made out of "the compressed wood, like the stuff on back of closets, 3mm thick" with al profiles on the edges)

(http://https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-KeOOrjIcF5M/SkVd6hXA3OI/AAAAAAAAFPI/LiXJEE0kXOA/s288/p6270013.jpg) (http://https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/S0xGAgtcoQyesrd79HVmBg?feat=embedwebsite)

so there is a lot of reasons to go with a ready made knockoff .. now, you can get a knockoff, remove the electronics and use the case, connectors and transformer and build a digital one :D for extra 20$ :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: EasternStarGeek on August 31, 2011, 04:13:08 pm
Oh boy... Now I want one of those!!
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on September 01, 2011, 08:20:35 am
I like the idea of getting a "cheap" soldering station with the power supply and salvaging it. That is my plan. My Aoyue 968 has broken hot-air, and it is far too huge for just soldering now.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 01, 2011, 12:22:48 pm
IIRC AOYUE uses also HAKKO compatible pencil. Just be sure to locate heater and sensor wires properly :D. Heat the iron and then disconnect and measure it. middle pin is ESD/EARTH, 2 on each sides should have 12R on heater and much more (if iron is heated up) on the sensor. Don't measure cold iron as you will get wrong results :D (on my iron's cable left 2 are sensor and right2 are heater), sensor goes from few R cold to ~50R hot, heater is few R cold and as soon as it gets heated it's 12R and holding that resistance.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sqkybeaver on September 01, 2011, 02:46:16 pm
this would be an awesome board to have in the store!
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 01, 2011, 03:42:10 pm
[quote author="sqkybeaver"]this would be an awesome board to have in the store![/quote]

I'm finishing the final version tomorrow, added the switching psu for logic part so you can safely power all from 25VAC as 7805 burns up after few minutes even with huge heat sink. On my test rig pic, moc and lcd with backlight use <200mA but still 30+VDC on the input of 7805 is just too much. BA05T works better then 7805 but it gets too hot too (does not die like 7805 but heat sink get too hot to touch) so I designed (copied from datasheet) a switching supply with mc34063. It's not the best switching chip out there but it is cheapest and easily accessible (for me at least, it's ~0.5EUR and they have thousands on stock in local stores, at least that's what they say). Anyhow I will be testing it tonight on breadboard and if it works I'll finish up the pcb

I will post it as soon as I'm done testing it and then Ian can rebrand it, put DP logo on it and add it to his pcb drawer or even a fully assembled product at seeed .. I have no issues with that :)... It would just be required to make a pcb in some foss app (I made schematic in KiCad, but I use proteus as main app so original schematic and pcb are made in proteus) as I don't think many ppl use proteus.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: tayken on September 01, 2011, 03:52:07 pm
[quote author="arhi"]I will post it as soon as I'm done testing it and then Ian can rebrand it, put DP logo on it and add it to his pcb drawer or even a fully assembled product at seeed .. I have no issues with that :)... It would just be required to make a pcb in some foss app (I made schematic in KiCad, but I use proteus as main app so original schematic and pcb are made in proteus) as I don't think many ppl use proteus.[/quote]
If Ian decides to put it on sale as a kit, I am willing to do all the Eagle conversion from the pictures. I used to use Proteus, but just for simulation purposes, never used it as a CAD. :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sqkybeaver on September 01, 2011, 03:53:17 pm
the mc34063 has been around for a long time and is super easy to work with.

Dave @ the eevblog has a good video based around that chip. worth looking at if you have not seen it.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 01, 2011, 03:56:56 pm
[quote author="sqkybeaver"]Dave @ the eevblog has a good video based around that chip. worth looking at if you have not seen it.[/quote]

ask me where I got the idea to use that chip :D :D :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sqkybeaver on September 01, 2011, 04:02:46 pm
[quote author="arhi"]ask me where I got the idea to use that chip :D :D :D[/quote]

if i was not into electronics, i would watch his videos just because of his energy and hilarity.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on September 01, 2011, 04:20:55 pm
*cough* eagle conversion in progress *cough*

Not intended to be for sale or anything. Too dangerous. But I want to make my own version and you are welcome to the PCB :) It will be a little juiced up. Gotta do something with the extra power of the PIC24.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sqkybeaver on September 01, 2011, 04:40:17 pm
[quote author="ian"]Gotta do something with the extra power of the PIC24.[/quote]

how about a pc control app.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on September 01, 2011, 04:52:08 pm
USB firmware upgrades for sure.

I want to automate all the settings as much as possible. Really 18F2550 is probably better choice because it has EEPROM, but 24FJis so much cheaper it is no issue to add EEPROM.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on September 01, 2011, 06:12:58 pm
Here is a schematic with a PIC 24fj64gb002 dropped on it. I added analog temperature sensor, crystal for time keeping (will need USB crystal too), and EEPROM. Probably all the extra pins will be used by this stuff, so there is little pin advantage over arhi's setup.

One nice thing I see in the PIC datasheet is 5 PWM: backlight, contrast, thermistor sensor adjust, +2 more for some sort of fun stuff.

I'm trying to figure out a auto-detect for iron type.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on September 01, 2011, 08:22:27 pm
I did a solomon control cirtcuit with pic16f1824 using a nokia 3210 for display, it has up, down and enter buttons and a menu, for saveing temperatures, and loading them, it also has the posibilito od usin an analog(pot) for seting temperatures, or digital up/down for fine tuning.

if anyone is interested I could post it here, although, the PID is not coded yet, and the code is not the cleanest of all, for that matter neither is the pcb.

Ian if you have extra pins, add breakouts so I could hookup nokia LCD insted of 2X16, these nokia 3310/3210/3330 lcd are cheap as dirt over here around 3$ a piece ,

BTW, I used a MAX6675 for temp sensing, its now discontinued but the replacement part MAX31855 , is pin and code compatable, wth added options.
http://www.maxim-ic.com/datasheet/index.mvp/id/7273 (http://www.maxim-ic.com/datasheet/index.mvp/id/7273)

it worked within 0.25c accuracy for 100c boiling watter test, and 1c for Ice test
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 01, 2011, 09:05:34 pm
3310 display was on my very first version (4+ years old) but I decided to go with big 16x2 lcd as nokia display was too small for my liking .. (even with huge numbers in the middle showing temperature) so I dropped it .. I do use nokia display for my hot plate (heated bed for reprap) project :D but that one I want to replace with 320x200 big color tft :)

Ian, why do you think it is "dangerous" to sell these?  I never planned to but I don't see why wouldn't someone do it.. It's "universal soldering iron driver" - works with irons that have thermocouple and PTC sensor. I personally never seen an iron with thermal control that has any different type of sensor so this basically covers all of them. Weller for e.g. use PT20 (ptc), I seen some that use PT100 (again PTC). The software/hardware is not copied from some brand name controller ... so you can make and sell them without a problem imho :). Not sure many ppl would by them ... probably more would be interested in cheap pcb's :)

Wrt autodetection, it's actually fairly hard as these PTC's also give out some temeperature, anyhow what you can do is
 - check ambient temp
 - read iron as K-type, if temp is between -5 and 5C the probe is probably k-type
 - read iron as PTC, if temp reads close to ambient temp, the probe is probably PTC
 - heat iron for 10sec
 - read iron as K-type, if temp show 20+C the probe is 99% Ktype
 - read iron as PTC, if temp reads 40+C the proble is 99% PTC

Now, as I mentioned already, HAKKO, SOLOMON, Weller .. they all have different connectors so you do not expect ppl to just switch irons here during work. That's why I think jumpers are "good enough".

Another thing, you really need the DCDC on board as most transformers from old irons come with single 24VAC supply. 7805 will die out in a heart beat..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 01, 2011, 09:45:34 pm
Here's the latest schematic. The pcb ain't over yet as I'm waiting for the L1 and L2 to arrive. No idea what package my local store have them in so I'll check them in the morning to c what package they come in so I'll finish PCB .. I'll also test the design in the morning when L1 and L2 arrive :) so I'll know if 24VAC will power pic properly.

I think it is obvious but if you use DCDC part of the page4 you need to not put 7805 on board :) (use D5 and all capacitors with DCDC too) and ifd you have separate low voltage AC (6-10V) then you can use 7805 but then don't populate U7, R25-29, L1, L2, D7, C14, C15.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Sjaak on September 01, 2011, 09:48:33 pm
Those Nokia LCD use SPI with some extra line. A 2x16 LCD would use 6 lines so you could use the nokia display instead. Perhaps ian should also.

BTW 3$ is damn cheap, where are you from?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 01, 2011, 09:50:59 pm
There is MCLR pin free (digital in or RESET pin) .. I didn't want to add reset pin so I left it free (mclr disabled in firmware), RB4-RB7 are free I had idea to use RX/TX on a header to be able to talk to pc but after a lot of thinking I don't see what would a connection between a pc and a soldering iron be used for. So here you basically have 2 analog ports that could be used to read local temp from analog sensor (NTC or PTC or some of those xmV/C units ..) .. you could add a pot to one of them and use it instead of encoder ... anyhow .. I didn't find any real use for them ..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 01, 2011, 09:56:31 pm
[quote author="Sjaak"]Those Nokia LCD use SPI with some extra line. A 2x16 LCD would use 6 lines so you could use the nokia display instead. Perhaps ian should also.[/quote]

yes, they are 4 wire spi, very easy to control, automatic contrast etc etc .. very nice for projects. For e.g. my 5channel thermostat uses it (http://http://elco.crsndoo.com/wordpress/2010/07/termostat-sa-5-zona/). But it's a soldering iron controller - where did the issue with "enough pins" came to be ? Unless you are using some super small 8pin mcu you have enough pins to drive regular 4bit 16x2 lcd :D

[qutoe]BTW 3$ is damn cheap, where are you from?[/quote]
he's from same place I am and I don't see them locally for 3$ he'll have to let me on a secret where he gets them. I purchase second hand nokia phones and extract screens from them, but I usually have to pay around 5eur for the second hand phone, that's almost double compared to 3$ .. on the other hand, there are some flee markets around Belgrade where you can get stuff dirt cheap if you have time and will to dig trough boxes :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on September 02, 2011, 07:35:31 am
I only said dangerous because there is AC voltage and hot pointy things. I think this is a great DIY through-hole free PCB project, but I hesitate to sell it as kit or assembled because if someone gets hurt I could be liable.

I will definitely use the MC3406, I have a bunch in DIP here. After you test of course :)

Thanks for the heads up on the iron pinout. I guess I assumed it was consistent. I will test my Aoyue as you described.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on September 02, 2011, 11:13:39 am
Updated eagle schematic. Pretty messy, I really should be working on other things instead of a fun project :) I removed the 7805 totally.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on September 02, 2011, 11:53:18 am
Quote
middle pin is ESD/EARTH, 2 on each sides should have 12R on heater and much more (if iron is heated up) on the sensor. Don't measure cold iron as you will get wrong results :D (on my iron's cable left 2 are sensor and right2 are heater), sensor goes from few R cold to ~50R hot, heater is few R cold and as soon as it gets heated it's 12R and holding that resistance.

I tested the Aoyue pencil and got different results.

The "left side", looking at the pencil cable as shown in the drawing, was 24ohms cold and hot. The right side was 2.5 cold and 6.5 (and rapidly dropping) after it was heated. I guess left (labeled 1/2) are heater, and right (4/5) is the temperature sensor.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Milarepa on September 02, 2011, 04:38:56 pm
I have a couple of broken JBC soldering stations I got for a few bucks at ebay, and this seems to me like it's worth an attempt of resurrection.
Why not make a kickstarter project or something out of this? I'd buy two!
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on September 02, 2011, 05:04:18 pm
[attachment=1]*offtopic

arhi, I get them from a local ebay type site, limundo, its kind of a risk, I buy broken, non working phones, for around 2e-4e, and all of the ones I bought so far, around 4 of them had working lcds, from time to time there are even adds for lcds only that also go around 2-3e, you can even get better deals if you buy 2-3 at once, the trick is to buy from  the seller that is at the same location as you so you dont have to pay the shipping fee witch is around 2e. also any local mobile phone servis will sell them for around 3e..


p.s. also to repeat my request to route all leftover port pins of a mcu, for future development, like adding more buttons, leds....
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: tinito on September 02, 2011, 05:59:02 pm
[quote author="ian"]I only said dangerous because there is AC voltage and hot pointy things. I think this is a great DIY through-hole free PCB project, but I hesitate to sell it as kit or assembled because if someone gets hurt I could be liable.[/quote]

Ian, there are laws (international?) about selling prototypes or are you just applying "good sense" to chose what is sellable and what not? No CE/FCC marking needed if you say it is a prototype?

[sorry for the little OT]
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 02, 2011, 08:38:26 pm
@arakis, hm I never seen them on limundo for 2-3$ I usually have to pay ~5E for the phone :) but I did few times purchased bulk (20 phones for 10eur :D )

taking extra 4 ports on the 16F690 ain't really worth it but could be done, the Ian's version with 24F makes more sense but I still don't think it's wort using 24F for a project like this one.

@ian, yes removing 7805 completely makes all kind of sense but since you still want all the capacitors :D (I love caps) 3pins 7805 works with makes sense and not mess up the board ... also there are those 3pin dcdc converters we mentioned in other thread that could be used...

wrt pins, 24R cold/hot is your heater I'd say. Especially if it is holding same resistance while heating the iron. But that means that you have 24W iron and not 48W as most hakko and aoyue pencils I seen. The 6.5R and dropping fast is weird .. that might be thermocouple!! that's weird as I never seen aoyue with thermocouple but everything is possible. Check it out as thermocouple, if you have temperature probe input on your multimeter or if you have k-type input on anything else .. if you don't have thermocouple input just connect it to a scope or multimeter and heat it up and you should see a rise in voltage when you heat it up.

@tinito, when you are selling a kit there's always a possibility some idiot will hurt himself and sue you. You are basically safe if you put visible "use on your own risk etc etc" but if an idiot sue you there are expenses and all the hassle and ... donno, ppl might not thing it's worth it. I know if DP had similar project I'd purchase it and would not develop my own :D but ..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 02, 2011, 09:25:41 pm
Ian, one hint. I use a "cable" fuse holder with 2.2A fuse on my 24VAC input into iron. Maybe it would be a good idea to add a fuse holder on the pcb too ? (I used pcb mounted fuse holder on my initial board)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 02, 2011, 10:50:16 pm
I am sorry to inform but originally designed 5V DCDC don't work!!! No idea what I did wrong but it has to be checked out by someone who has a clue how those things work :)

When I assembled the circuit according to schematic the output was 5V. Then I attached the dummy load and kaboom, below 50mA it works but as soon as you start going over 50mA the thing start falling apart, voltage goes to few hundred millivolts and the whole thing crash .. The inductors (220uF and 1uF) are in same package as 1/4W resistor and they get HOT!!! ?! I never tried to load it with more then 250mA.

Here's the schematic I'm using, whatever's wrong - I have no clue so, thy who has experience, feel free to point to my mistakes and redesign the bloody thing. Note that input comes from 24VAC rectified so it will be 34VDC on the input. sqkybeaver mentioned that [quote author="sqkybeaver"]the mc34063 has been around for a long time and is super easy to work with[/quote] so, please rescue me :D I have no clue how to design this :D and why the hack are these inductors getting so hot at 250mA draw. So the summarize, my DCDC is shit, we need someone who knows how to design
30-40VDC input (34VDC optimal) and 5VDC output with 300-400mA output (250mA optimal) with mc34063 :)

the current schematic that does not work (not even with 10-20VDC input and 100mA draw) is attached
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 02, 2011, 10:58:10 pm
After I add 100uF + 1000uF after L2 (forgot to add those - idiot) I get while input voltage is 12VDC ~5V on the output while drawing 250mA but the L1 gets HOOOOOOOT!!! very fast, seriously .. can't touch it .. moving input over 12V gets thing to collapse very quickly :( (and we need it to power from 35V)

I am now using this: http://dics.voicecontrol.ro/tutorials/mc34063/ (http://dics.voicecontrol.ro/tutorials/mc34063/)

might get better results, will try that one now .. not sure what Lmin means .. can I use 220uH if it states Lmin = 75uH ? .. will have to read that datasheet from top to bottom now :(
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 03, 2011, 12:08:58 am
I got this from here[/here] and it still don't work ...

I did try to use same 220uH L (as it states Lmin so should not mind if it gets bit more?) and C0 I used 20uF ..

After load goes over 50mA output voltage goes to few hundred mV ...

I'm waiting for the expert :D

btw, not sure what the actual Vin is ..

24VAC is a sine so 24*0.7 = 16.8, rectified is *1.41=23.88 but there's a voltage drop on the rectifier .. 1.1V as 1n4007 is used .. so 22.7V ?

So maybe it should be 24VDC +- 10% (21.6VDC - 26.4VDC) ? (http://http)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sqkybeaver on September 03, 2011, 12:27:31 am
you may need higher inductance because of the large diffrence of input vs output voltage.
Title: I am doing something seriously wrong
Post by: arhi on September 03, 2011, 01:21:55 am
something is seriously wrong here ... here's the calc from http://dics.voicecontrol.ro/tutorials/m ... culate.php (http://dics.voicecontrol.ro/tutorials/mc34063/calculate.php) and it looks ok with datasheet (I recalculated all manually) ... I made the stuff on a actual pcb (strip board) as I assumed maybe solderless proto had some issues ... Still identical results ?! 0-50mA works ok, over 50mA kaboooom drops down to below 500mV ..

I'm using
for R2 3k3+300R
for Ct I'm using 680pF||680pF  (ceramic)
for C0 1000uF (it only affects ripple)
for L I'm using 220uH


Why the hack this ain't working for more then 50mA when the calculation is for 300mA ... what am I doing wrong ?!
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 03, 2011, 01:45:50 am
[quote author="sqkybeaver"]you may need higher inductance because of the large diffrence of input vs output voltage.[/quote]

I don't have a problem to increase inductance, but I'm using the values from calculator according to datasheet :( ... (I did mention I do not know how this works right?) ...

if you have any ideas - please let me know .. I do not have many inductors here to test with (only 22000 uH, 220uH, 1uH - 10pcs each) but I could make some adding this in series and parallel ... just hit me with something to test and I'll get on to it immediately :) I just have zero ideas attm
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 03, 2011, 01:51:36 am
if it matters, the 220 and 1uH are in pack that looks like resistor - no idea what the current rating is and those 22000 are http://nl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fast ... FZWw%3d%3d (http://nl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fastron/09P-223J-50/?qs=3%2fphUcBLEfYl3ot5vrFZWw%3d%3d) (Maximum DC Current: 60 mA )
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Folknology on September 03, 2011, 02:02:24 am
If you have the chip in a dill socket remove it and remove supply connection (Strip board version) and measure the resistance between pins 6 & 7 to make sure it's 0.5 ohms and not 3 ohms. Obvious check are the sense resistors are the correct value, for instance 1 ohm and not 10 ohms for example.

Your inductor needs to be about twice the max rated current by the way, you should also choose one with a low resistance normally a power inductor.

The latest values you use are better than the previous as those were incorrect (ct = 75pF is bad, operates at more than twice the rated frequency of the device!).

regards
Al
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 03, 2011, 02:08:05 am
I replaced that 220uH (that pdf shown) with 22mH (so 100 times more) and now I can draw mine 250mA while voltage drops only to 4.8V .. it's not perfect but it kinda works. What's the problem - the 22mH gets HOT and after few seconds I have to shut everything down as I'm afraid inductor is going to burn out.

If anyone has any ideas - shoot :) .... I wanted to use this switching DCDC because I assume it will be small and will fit on board and allow everything to be powered from 24VAC but I assume I need higher current rated inductor for this to work (probably inductor fails after it gets hot and that's why the whole thing fails) and to have inductor to not heat at 250mA it probably need to be rated 0.5A and that is going to be BIG .. ... damn .. there goes that idea ..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Folknology on September 03, 2011, 02:13:43 am
The heat is due to wasted energy in the inductor, normally the result of its resistance, not sure what inductors your using so its difficult to judge.

regards
Al
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 03, 2011, 02:18:29 am
[quote author="Folknology"]If you have the chip in a dill socket remove it and remove supply connection (Strip board version) and measure the resistance between pins 6 & 7 to make sure it's 0.5 ohms and not 3 ohms.
[/quote]

I soldered it down to stripboard now - no socket, wanted to avoid all possible causes of trouble after it didn't work the first time. I removed the power, discharged the caps and measured resistance between 6 and 7 - got 0.5R (0.4-0.6, my multimeter don't go well below 1R)

[quote author="Folknology"]
 Obvious check are the sense resistors are the correct value, for instance 1 ohm and not 10 ohms for example.
[/quote]

no load - I get 5.00V so I'd say sense resistors are ok

[quote author="Folknology"]
Your inductor needs to be about twice the max rated current by the way, you should also choose one with a low resistance normally a power inductor.
[/quote]

uh I was seriously afraid of that :(. I assume these inductors packed in 1/4W resistor like cases can take few mA only :( (cannot find a datasheet) ... I tried now with 50mA DC rated inductor and it worked bit better (inductor is as I noted 100 times larger) but it got very very hot very fast :( ...

[quote author="Folknology"]
The latest values you use are better than the previous as those were incorrect (ct = 75pF is bad, operates at more than twice the rated frequency of the device!).[/quote]

the 75 was a test of higher freq (I hoped calc will prevent me to go out of range of the device)

Anyhow, seems the issue is with inductor - a one with fat wire is required :( ...

what is weird is that this other one (1uH) on the output does not get even warm (the "optional filter") and all that current has to go trough it too ?! .. any ideas what is the "default" rating for these 1/4W resistor look a likes ?

(THANKS a bunch for joining in on discussion)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 03, 2011, 02:23:29 am
[quote author="Folknology"]The heat is due to wasted energy in the inductor[/quote]

:D usually is :D inductor, resistor .. I just kinda ignored the point that all current I draw go trough L .. as I mentioned that second inductor is also in the 1/4W case and it does not get warm and all the current have to go trough it too

[quote author="Folknology"]
not sure what inductors your using so its difficult to judge.
[/quote]

attm L is this one: http://nl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fast ... FZWw%3d%3d (http://nl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fastron/09P-223J-50/?qs=3%2fphUcBLEfYl3ot5vrFZWw%3d%3d)

before that I used 220uH one that looks just like 1/4w resistor only it is green :) (brown, black, gold, silver on the 1uH for e.g.) no idea what the power rating is ...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Folknology on September 03, 2011, 02:27:02 am
Make sure those inductors aren't just wire wound resistors of course!

something like one of these (with the right inductance) would probably work : do a google search for "STANDARD-RADIAL-LEAD-INDUC-0-6A-470UH-88-1039" that should point to an inductor at rapid electronics. I would use a direct url but the spam bot here won't allow me to ;-)

regards
Al
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Folknology on September 03, 2011, 02:34:32 am
If you are drawing 250ma with that inductor having a 58ohm dc resistance (effectively in series) the power consumed and mostly runed into heat would be:

P = I*V = I*I*R = 0.25*0.25*58 ~ 3.6 watts i.e. small heater!

Also a voltage drop will effectively build up across the series resistance of the inductor, if you do the math you can see why things start to break down prematurely.

regards
Al
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 03, 2011, 02:56:53 am
[quote author="Folknology"]that should point to an inductor at rapid electronics[/quote]

looking at pic these look like "medium current" inductors. And according to rapid the current rating drops with inductance, the 220uH one is rated 250mA so "right there on the limit" and 1uH is 1.2A so that explains why the 1uH is cold and 220uH is cooking. I do not have anything to compare those pics to so these might even be "low current" ones so 220uH is 130mA (1uH is 640mA) and that would also fit the pattern ... anyhow they are underrated for current I need to draw (especially as you said that I need to double the rating I need - or that was just a safety ?)


[quote author="Folknology"]If you are drawing 250ma with that inductor having a 58ohm dc resistance..[/quote]

yup, the resistance on these devices is huge I hoped the resistance would be below 1R, 50+R confused me a lot!!

btw this 220uH measures around 5R so matches the table for low current inductors (so it's 130mA rated :( ) ... that kinda explains it all ... I ordered some 1A (0.19R) and 0.5A rated ones (1R) to repeat the test tomorrow, but I fear they are going to be physically much bigger then what I expected :( ... this 1uH on the output can stay as even if rated only 640mA (low current one) it's going to be more then ok for 240mA current draw :)

Thanks for help
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on September 03, 2011, 08:49:52 am
Ack, I'm a little late to the party today ;)

Thank you for the analysis of my iron. I will do some further testing, and maybe pop open the station. I opened it before, it is an all through-hole PCB.

Quote
p.s. also to repeat my request to route all leftover port pins of a mcu, for future development, like adding more buttons, leds....

In so much as it is possible, this will be done on my controller. I also decided to switch to 18F2550 while trying to fall asleep last night, the EEPROM and 5V are too attractive to go with a 24F.

Quote
Ian, there are laws (international?) about selling prototypes or are you just applying "good sense" to chose what is sellable and what not? No CE/FCC marking needed if you say it is a prototype?

On circuit boards and even kits there is the implied risk of using hot-pointy things and DIY, so (as adafruit told me) it is probably not worth worrying about being sued. However, as arhi says, even if you're not liable for damage it doesn't stop a costly lawsuit. More generally speaking, I would feel super bad if something I worked on/sold hurt someone or caused damage.

Quote
Ian, one hint. I use a "cable" fuse holder with 2.2A fuse on my 24VAC input into iron. Maybe it would be a good idea to add a fuse holder on the pcb too ? (I used pcb mounted fuse holder on my initial board)

Will do.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 03, 2011, 12:54:23 pm
[quote author="ian"]
Thank you for the analysis of my iron. I will do some further testing, and maybe pop open the station. I opened it before, it is an all through-hole PCB.
[/quote]

Then by all means please trace the schematic on original controller and use that to detect sensor and heater. I already made a mistake once and it's a easy one to make. Also adding original schematic to the threat might help someone in the future :)

[quote author="ian"]
In so much as it is possible, this will be done on my controller. I also decided to switch to 18F2550 while trying to fall asleep last night, the EEPROM and 5V are too attractive to go with a 24F.
[/quote]

:D :D :D 18F2550 was btw my first choice for this device :D then I decided to go with 16F690 to "get rid of it" :D

one more project to polish on new open source usb stack :)

I now need to wait for this inductor to arrive. I ordered some 330uH 1A and 0.5A inductors but I think they will arrive Monday or Tuesday :( to try the 5V regulator... from what I seen yesterday the latest schematic should work, the only problem is the pcb as I have no clue what packages those come in. But they obviously ain't gonna be SMD :(
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 04, 2011, 03:53:58 am
I finished moving my office (from one appt to another) and I will move most of my electronics equipment there but I still want to keep at least one soldering iron home so I decided to use one small ABS box I have and pack one small driver for solomon in.

I'm using COG 16x2 display from mikroelektronika (http://http://www.mikroe.com/eng/downloads/get/1008/cog_display_spec.pdf) that is fairly cheap (5$), simple to drive (standard write only protocol) and uses next to none power to operate :D

(http://http://www.mikroe.com/img/development-tools/compontents/cog_thumb.gif)

I'm using the last switching schematic I tried since I measured whole circuit draw between 5 and 20mA (depending on if the heater is on or off, if the heater led is attached etc). With this 22mH 60mA inductor the output is steady 5.0V, the ripple is negligible (As I have few 1000uF there :D on the output) and nothing is getting hot. The power factor ain't big. Attm 25V being put in at 7.77mA (194.25mW) and 18.5mA is being drawn at 5.0V (92.5mW) so bit under 50% .. it would probably increase if I used higher frequency (smaller Ct) but .. it works as it is .. for the main driver (back lit display) I'll have to wait for the high current inductors to arrive.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Folknology on September 04, 2011, 02:48:38 pm
I may be speaking out of turn here (being new to the forum etc..) and I also don't know what your driving principles/goals are for the project but you could probably reduce the cost of this unit by using a 3 digit led common cathode display (< $1) rather than the LCD. by adding a uln2003 or similar (also v.cheap) to drive the cathodes and 3 of the spare darlingtons instead of the 3 inverters (uc3) you would not increase chip count. Also the display could be mounted on the board itself which is useful when looking at enclosures etc..

Also you could loose some of that component duplication (like R19-24 not sure of the purpose of these) except where it accounts for different soldering iron types.

Just tell me to shut up if I'm interfering, I won't be offended!

regards
Al
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on September 04, 2011, 05:52:06 pm
All good suggestions, al, we never turn down input. My aoyue uses 7 segment blocks, but i would like a full lcd in my personal build. I have big plans for a setup and calibration interface :)

Arhi - according to the docs, the aoyue is 38watts, 24 volts. I will tear down the box later in the week for any hints about the iron type.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 04, 2011, 06:00:27 pm
:D :D :D

- I use lcd because I actually have bunch of those compared to 7segs that I don't have, because they allow for nice user interface and because even when I don't have them they are cca 5$ so the "save" would be "negligible" when making "one off" device .. when making hundreds, yes, it would make whole lot of sense... I also seriously hate 7segs, when I have to use them I chose to drive them with 74HC595+ULN200x and to not multiplex them ..

- Since I use transformers, big ones,  and since I hate when I move the cable and "device housing" start moving I actually put the transformer in the box so the box is heavy - stays in place, only mains cable exit box, and it's, in my case, required to have a cable between lcd and pcb. I actually also attach triac via cable and not on board (that's why on original board I had triac in the middle of the pcb) as I mount it on the heatsink and to the box itself

R19-R24 "duplicates" are there because I can't find 24K resistor locally (not a single store has them !!) so in first version I made those monuments from 3 resistors on the single resistor pad, now I added pads for 3 resistors. I could remove the original 24k from the pcb but what if someone has 24k available? I know you can purchase (just not here). I also don't see them increase price of anything, you don't put them on board and "complexity" of the pcb don't affect it's price

Quote
Just tell me to shut up if I'm interfering, I won't be offended!

oh no, please keep it coming. donno about others but I often get so shoved up the ass of my own project I can't see obvious things. These questions tend to snap me back into reality :D - they also help other ppl following up the project understand what they can change and why

as for most of "useful" projects I'm making I'm "getting the job done with what I have attm". I need bunch of soldering irons (some at home some in workshop) and I have bunch of these good pencils without drivers, so I decided to make a driver. Made first years ago, now I needed another so revisited the old project. I'd never initially decide to use 16F690 for this project. I'd go with some 18F device if I was "choosing" based on "what's best to run this", but I have 7 or 8 16F690 left in my drawer and I want to use these puppies up, so if a project can somehow fit in 16F690 - I use 16F690 ("I, the idiot" purchased 100pcs of 16F690 "by accident" so I'm using them wherever I can :D under 10 left :D ) ... also for e.g. using DS18B20 is for sure not the most optimal way to get cold joint temperature :D but I have 5 or 6 of them left collecting dust, I know they are not cheap but I have them .. so why not use them. It's open project, anyone can decide to make a change and use whatever is for them more accessible device :D ... also the moc I'm using is zero crossing, you do not need to use zero crossing, nor you need to use 1mA version ... you can use normal 10-20mA version without zero crossing, for a heater it would work just as good, only, I have 10 of these in the drawer and no others .. next time I'm ordering moc's I'll order some "regular" ones too but for now I'm using these zero crossing low current ones.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 04, 2011, 06:12:07 pm
[quote author="ian"]according to the docs, the aoyue is 38watts, 24 volts. I will tear down the box later in the week for any hints about the iron type.[/quote]

So the heater should be around 15R ... make sure you open it up and figure what's ptc and what's heater, the variable resistance of heater wire makes this checkups nasty ..

As for the interface it would be fairly simple (on 18F with enough flash) to make a simple calculation matrix for the calibration. You measure the iron in few points and you enter these points trough interface, firmware stores the table with data and do all calculation using it. I wanted to do same but 16F690 don't have enough flash for that exhibition :(. The big problem is really the way to set/measure temperature of the heater. We are working with 200-500C temp range and 250-450C range is where we would like to have controller as precise as possible. To set and measure this temp is "nasty", you need some medium (usually some oil that does not burn at 250+ so corn/olive/sunflower oil can't be used, maybe peanuts?, some high temp machine oil ..) where you submerge your heater and your thermometer.. and then you wait for everything to equilise and then you read info from adc and compare to measured temp. It is slow and dirty process and the "medium" sticks to your heater and is hard/impossible to remove it later and ... naaasty ... That's why I like solomon handles - they come with Ktype thermopar that is well documented. HAKKO comes with darn PTC with no datasheet :( so you need to make the table yourself
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Folknology on September 04, 2011, 07:34:35 pm
Thanks Guys

In that case can you try to keep the display code as a separate module (where possible) so that some of us can use the 7-seg approach.

I need to try and work out the details for my target iron, I know its 48 Watt 24vac,but not sure what its using for temp feedback, by the looks of my dead element (replaced) it has 2 different metals on the lead which suggests thermocouple. My iron also has a round 4 pin connector so I will need to improvise there also!

I'm no pic expert but does the 16F690 have a pin compatable bigger brother with more flash maybe for the tables etc..?

regards
Al
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sqkybeaver on September 04, 2011, 09:01:00 pm
i have a few max7219 and i want 2 rows of 7 segs on mine, as long as i can get to spi i'm good
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Folknology on September 04, 2011, 09:03:29 pm
My iron looks a lot like the one pictured here (sl-30), but the connector is different : http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-1771922897 ... _184146561 (http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-17719228972953_2170_184146561)

If they are the same and I am sure that they are, these have been used in many different temp controlled soldering iron products.

regards
Al
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 05, 2011, 03:46:49 am
Solomon is one of the biggest OEM soldering equipment manufacturer in the world. You can find that many brands are actually solomon with different connector and different sticker. If you have a multimeter with thermocouple input (many cheap 2$ made in PRC ones do) you can try to attach leads you believe are probe and test the output :)... if you have working controller measure voltage on pins, if you have non-working controller open it up and check out what kind of control it is doing.

As for the SPI on a 7seg there's enough pins to do it .. (IIRC I left hardware SPI free on 16F690). Wrt "modules", it's not that easy. Concept when running 7seg and when you are running LCD are imho too different, with lcd you display info you want, with 7seg you need to improvise. All the "alphabet" ppl use on the 7seg is for me too ugly, disgusting and not something I ever want to use myself. For e.g. I have a very nice PID controller for heating/cooling units. Darn thing allows you to set 2 different channels, pid parameters, warning values, type of sensor and whole bunch of other stuff. Comes with a darn book filled with "what you need to press to get stuff done". It has 3 7seg's, 4 leds and 4 buttons. Using the darn thing is impossibly difficult. Changing a single value require you to go trough many steps .. I changed sensor type on it 20+ times and still when I need to do it I have to consult a book - that's how "intuitive" the 7seg is. And darn thing cost arm and a leg... When you use a LCD you have nice big letters and numbers and anything you like showing all the data you want it to show, you have menus with text explanations etc. You do not need a bloody manual to store a startup temperature of your device .. you just go trough menu .. and with lcd costing 5$ ?!?! what's the point going 7seg? (the "better visibility" is argument I do not agree with, first I don't look at temperature on my iron while soldering that often at all and I never look at the temp of my soldering iron from 10m away, darn thing is never more then 50-100cm away from me and any decent back lit lcd can be read without a problem from 5m away...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Folknology on September 05, 2011, 12:00:47 pm
Your display sounds really cool and very functional and will probably look the part also.

For me however, less is more, I like 2 basic settings - lead and lead free (pre-set temps), I tend to use the same types of solder, even the 7-seg is overkill 95% of the time as I don't actually need to know the temp, just that its where it should be! Occasionally I need to boost it for things that have a heat sink or large pcb contact area. As for setting PID values through menus that's far too much hassle for me I just want to get the stuff done, once those settings are optimised I don't touch them.

Thus for me operation would be 3 modes:
1) Leaded (pre-set 1) default
2) Lead free (pre-set 2) mode button
3) Manual temp - encoder

On a rare occasion of say changing an iron/element or something that needs p changes:
To set parameters such as PID values, hold down mode button (until display flashes) and rotate encoder knob for value and then press button again, mcu goes through all user parameters until finished. should not need a manual.

P.S. Yes I know some of the units out there are mind bogglingly complex and difficult to use, products from the institute of sh*t design, I am amazed at how badly some user interfaces are created so you have my sympathies I have been there also!

P.P.S That one of the cool things about open hardware you can make it whatever you want :-)

regards
Al
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on September 05, 2011, 01:09:35 pm
I think I'm running out of pins on a 18F2550. There are 15 free pins after adding xtal, time-keeping xtal, MCLR, USB, power, ground. Maybe the 32.768khz isn't needed, I don't want a battery backup after all so it won't be a great clock. That would free up 2 for 17 free pins.

1 thermocouple
1 heater control
1 temperature sensor
1 LCD backlight control
6 LCD control
1 PWM LCD contrast control
1 PWM Thermistor adjust (???)
1 or 2 Thermistor ground and power (could combine into 1 with NPN/PNP pair control)
3 INTERRUPT (?) interface buttons/encoder
17 total

I know it's probably silly, but I want to automate the iron selection so I can play around with automated tests. I'm not sure the best way to do it. ONe way would be a PNP high side switch and a NPN low-side switch to enable/disable. I thought it would be cool to do the adjustment with a PWM, but I feel that's going to be too noisy for an analog reading.

Maybe the Thermistor could be powered and grounded directly from the PIC pins. I'm not sure what effect RV2 and R29 would have when connected during thermocouple mode. Even if the PIC pin is hiz, I think the variable resistor will load the thermocouple.

Latest files attached.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 05, 2011, 05:49:24 pm
[quote author="ian"]I think I'm running out of pins on a 18F2550. There are 15 free pins after adding xtal, time-keeping xtal, MCLR, USB, power, ground.
[/quote]

dump 32768 xtal and use zero cumulative error alg. It works as well as 32768 basec clock (often even better as often you get lower ppm devices at higher speeds)..

dump mclr and use it as input pin

- that's 3 pins saved :D

Quote
1 LCD backlight control
1 PWM LCD contrast control

I never use this from mcu. In best case I leave the pot's accessible trough the case holes. I really don't see me needing to change any of these via menus. This saves 2 pins + it saves memory for setting these in menus.

Quote
1 or 2 Thermistor ground and power (could combine into 1 with NPN/PNP pair control)

adding transistors to thermistors kills the precision a lot, increases the acquisition time and increases the noise. Not really a good solution. Now I'm not sure about some things here. Thermistor adjust?! what is that?

Note that you need to have an "ambient temperature monitor". It is required with the thermocouple and it is also necessary for the auto detection.

so by my calculation you need


That's about it 14 pins, and one of them can be MCLR :) (button for encoder). That more then fits in the 18F2550 :). You can even add few pin's for few "presets" :) (I'd link all available pin's to presets buttons)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 06, 2011, 06:33:52 am
This is I think "final" version of this design. Not much to be done here (except change the mcu and then push more functionality to it). It works, the Solomon handle works perfectly (Ktype thermocuple sensor) and the HAKKO (ptc sensor) works satisfactory (I'm not sure the offset and slope values are correct as I'm unable to measure temperature of the tip reliably in 200-400C range).

There's bunch of redundant stuff on board (one resistor or three resistors in 2 places, 7805 or switching circuit etc etc ..) and the pcb ain't that pretty but all in all - it works.

Further improvements
 - add a voltage reference so that temperature readings are even more precise
 - add few more buttons for some temperature presets
 - make 7seg display / lcd display as different modules
 - add some real PID control
 - auto detection of the sensor type
 - add time/date, uptime and other interesting data on display
 - software upgrade with serial or usb bootloader
 - output temp data on usb or serial link
 - cheaper ambient temp sensor (maybe it would be cool info to display ambient temp too :D )
 ...

But these really require a mcu with bit more flash and I really just want a soldering iron so for the solomon (ktype thermocouple) type I'm not changing nothing in the concept any more; wrt hakko iron I might decide to do input differently as just using voltage divider and then amplifying it 240 times might not be the best solution for this PTC as attm I see a very noisy response from the sensor. I remove the noise with a low pass filter in software but I need to find a proper way to read this PTC. I tested the same technique with NTC that I have datasheet to and the system worked flawlessly so it looks like this PTC in HAKKO pencil is "dodgy". I'm waiting for another original hakko pencil to arrive before I start working on the "fix" for the hakko driver.

Note that L1 must be rated for twice the current your logic is using. I measured 250mA max usage with big back-lit lcd. L2 is not necessary and can be replaced with a 0R "resistor" (or a piece of wire), but if mounted you need to be sure it is rated for the current you are drawing. For L2 it is not a big deal as it is very low inductance so they usually take more then 300mA.

What would be cool is to get
 - pcb in kicad, all trough hole
 - pcb in kicad, all smd

but I don't have nerves to do it myself
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 08, 2011, 05:05:10 am
I friend just noticed, on all my boards I have 74HC14 and in schematic I'm constantly using 74hc04. The proper device (pin compatibile) is 74hc14 (schmidt invertor) and not 74hc04 (normal invertor) as the point of this ttl device is to clean up the garbage from the mechanical encoder...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on September 08, 2011, 08:35:14 am
I can't get back to this project until after the Maker Faire, but I will simplify and go with your suggestions. I'll give up the automated control and opt for simple jumpers :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 08, 2011, 08:58:50 am
I'll probably finish the second revision of the board before end of maker faire :D .. maybe even one with 18f2550 :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on September 08, 2011, 10:04:21 am
Is that a threat? ;)

Will you do it in Kicad?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 08, 2011, 01:11:49 pm
threat ? why ? :D ... I miss flash in 690 for some features and I just received another hakko original pencil to do the final testing ... I also have few other ideas in mind so ..

KiCad ... well, I'll definetely draw a schematic in KiCad when I finish it, but PCB in KiCad is a foo I still haven't mastered so I'll do a pcb in Proteus and some kicad master can make a pcb in kicad :D (maybe you should start mastering kicad foo in the spirit of open source :D, I did as much as I could mastering schematic part - HOW TO TURN OFF THE MEASLES ?! )
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on September 08, 2011, 09:28:31 pm
Well, as long as you're sticking with not-eagle, we'll route one in eagle here ;)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 08, 2011, 10:48:03 pm
I ain't using Eagle. If I'm going to use closed sw I'll use Proteus. It's waaaaay better then Eagle. I tried eagle for 6 months ("fixed" full version) and it's not something I'd pay 500$ for and limitations of the "free" versions are too low imho so it got uninstalled from all my computers. KiCAD show promise, and it ain't that bad wrt schematic capture. It sucks big time in the flow schematic -> pcb and back but that's something we talked about too many times already, and that's why I'm not making PCB using KiCAD.

Anyhow, the v1 of the schematic with 18F2550 attached :D. I'm open for comments :) (no software so far, just hw)

Major changes
 - no more 7805
 - no more input for separate power input for the logic (chopper is designed to take 20-30V and output 5V)
 - ICSP
 - with few jumpers you can decide to use one of those analog temperature probes like LM35 and similar, the probe output goes trough amp that can be set to do 0-11 times amplification. Maybe it should be changed to amplify 0-100times but that's just few resistors to change.. I don't use those probes often. Also it is simple to attach NTC too.
 - 3 new buttons (for predefined temperatures for e.g.)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: eeAlchemist on September 09, 2011, 02:56:44 am
I've often wanted a "turbo" button that I could press to turn up the heat and after 5 min or so go back to normal temperature. That way when I am soldering big parts and forget to turn the iron back down the controller would do it for me.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 09, 2011, 03:14:41 am
[quote author="eeAlchemist"]I've often wanted a "turbo" button that I could press to turn up the heat and after 5 min or so go back to normal temperature. That way when I am soldering big parts and forget to turn the iron back down the controller would do it for me.[/quote]

I think we found the use for one of those 3 additional buttons :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: eeAlchemist on September 09, 2011, 12:32:38 pm
[quote author="arhi"].....Anyhow, the v1 of the schematic with 18F2550 attached :D. I'm open for comments :) (no software so far, just hw)...)[/quote]
Just a few things to think about. See enclosed.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on September 09, 2011, 01:42:38 pm
If you are willing to give up the LCD nibble, Button 1-3 could go on INT2/INT1/INT0 (or RB4).

RC2 and RB3 are the PWMs. They could be used for LCD backlight and contrast adjustment. Since there is ambient temperature measurement, the LCD could up the contrast a little to compensate for a cold shop ;)

I noticed a Vref, are you planning to use something special? If there is a 4.096 ref for example you could measure the system supply voltage from the booster feedback pin for a self-test.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: fcobcn on September 09, 2011, 02:00:19 pm
It would be nice to add an accelerometer to the pencil, to auto shutdown the unit if a certain time has passed by without been used.
Probably a single axis analog accelerometer may work.
Great work arhi!
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 09, 2011, 03:24:11 pm
@eeAlchemist GREAT hints !!!

Wrt adding capacitors in the feedback for opamps I have no clue how that works (I suck significantly with analog electronics, op-amps in particular) but I will take your word for it and add the two caps :D. I do some NF in software but if this will add some NF in hardware - even better :D

Wrt replacing nor with diodes I used to do this earlier, not sure why I stopped.. I think ttl chips became so cheap that it made little sense ... as for the other gates in the chip, I'm not sure they won't be used :D. Still, great hint too

@fcobcn, That would require "making your own pencil/handle", both hakko and solomon I use have very thin handles so there's not enough room in there to add much... I think I could squeeze some small accelerometer in hakko's handle but adding additional wire would make it "too much work". There is another way make some auto shutdown I was thinking of implementing. You monitor temperature of the iron constantly and you know how fast the temperature drops when iron is not used. Now when the temp drop faster it is because iron is in use. The idea is to detect when "for a while" iron is cooling at slow rate only and turn it off. Anyhow, it's not a big deal (auto shut off) with these hakko and solomon pencils. I had hakko pencil run for a week at 350C, nothing bad happened to it.

@ian, I'm using my own LCD library for this so I can have LCD pins spread around, no problem, so basically I don't need B_INT, as all input pins are on the interrupts :) good idea.

you really like to pwm the backlight :D :D :D .... probably depends on the type of lcd's you use .. I have mostly these green backlit ones that work really great, in the mid of the night without a single light they are not too bright, and they are visible during the day :)... + I use some of these cog display's that are reflective (use 0 current but not perfect choice for this project).... but yes, the pwm can be added for the back light. Wrt contrast, donno what to say, again it depends, the cog's I just link Vee with Vss and that's it .. for some SED display's I had to tie Vee to -4V because at Vss the contrast is still too low .. I kinda see the contrast setting a "waste of time" - especially as if you mess up the contrast in the software you can't fix it any more (you don't see the menus). A trimmer is imho best option for that

Vref .. donno, The part I don't like is that I can't use 5.0V vref because if Vdd falls below 5.0 it will fail. The 240x amp for the thermocouple is designed to be 240x because for 10bit ADC all you need to do is divide ADC value by 2 and you get temp in C. Now if the Vref is not at 5V the measurement is skewed .. Now the idea is to, not 100% decided yet, not use the Vref pin as hardware Vref but to link a 2.5V (or 1.25V or whaver is easy accessible at low ppm value) reference and to just read that ADC channel and use it to fix the value read from the other analog inputs (as we have a known value on that pin). It adds some calculation to the mix and slows down the sampling time but adds on precision without reducing the range of ADC input.

Now don't forget that 18F2550 is not huge chip, if you want to add bootloader to it it will take some flash too.. also, do you really care much about what is the Vdd value in you soldering iron :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on September 09, 2011, 04:07:42 pm
Quote
Now when the temp drop faster it is because iron is in use. The idea is to detect when "for a while" iron is cooling at slow rate only and turn it off. Anyhow, it's not a big deal (auto shut off) with these hakko and solomon pencils. I had hakko pencil run for a week at 350C, nothing bad happened to it.

My thought too.

Experience says no matter how fancy the electronics, the fading PWM LED is what people like most ;) And it is a "free" feature so I like it too. Great point about the contrast, but it could be overridden in start-up or by jumper. You don't need to do it for me though, I will do it on my own version (this isn't design by committee talk) :)

FOr the reference - Microchip has a 2.5volt reference in a nice to92 package. I would measure the supply to help with debug - given your experience with the power supply it might help to ask a user with a new build "what is your supply reading", or better throw an error on startup.

The HID bootloader is only one page, so no big deal. I think in my firmware the text will take up the most space. I want really cool menus :D

When you talk of PID - is that something a PWM should be reserved for?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 09, 2011, 04:39:57 pm
I don't mind pwm on the back light just don't find it "important" :) ... and yes it's not design by committee but discussing stuff allow us to get to the goal faster and to define proper goals :D... especially for things some of us don't have a strong feeling about.

What's the 2.5V reference you are talking about (part number)? I had some 2.5V references but can't find them so I will have to get new ones.. As for the debugging supply - yes it makes sense to measure it but if there's a vref the only thing psu will affect is if pic runs or not, nothing else .. so ..

yes, txt takes valuable flash space ..

PID - well, yes. When using zero cross triak driver I implement PWM in software with 1Hz frequency. That's what I do for my big heated chambers and heated platforms. But this time I used triak driver without zero crossing detection and linked it to the PWM pin. I think it should work with soldering iron perfectly, and we can always use software pwm on the same pin if the frequency of the PWM gets too fast for the triak and heater in the soldering iron (you see that heater out is on the pwm pin)

Other good use of the PID is that it knows how fast the temp is changing so we can use it to make the auto shutdown function work, I already made something similar way back for another project, what I basically did was to reset the counter every time output value from the pid function was greater then some set value. Worked like a charm, should work with heater too
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on September 09, 2011, 05:02:19 pm
I just get really excited about this project and don't want you to feel like I'm pestering you :)

Here is the VREF. It comes in TO-92, among others:
http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/De ... e=en019717 (http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/Devices.aspx?dDocName=en019717)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 09, 2011, 06:00:25 pm
no pestering .. keep it coming :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 09, 2011, 06:15:19 pm
[quote author="ian"]Here is the VREF. It comes in TO-92, among others:
http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/De ... e=en019717 (http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/Devices.aspx?dDocName=en019717)[/quote]

50pp/C is bit high :( I hoped you found some more accurate one :D

I was hoping to find something like REF02 (5V 4-10ppm/C) but for 1.25 or 2.5V ... REF03 is not bad but 10-50ppm/C so similar to this MCP1525 (27-50ppm/C), bit better but similar :(
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Folknology on September 09, 2011, 10:15:18 pm
Right here is my interpretation, I'm still a Pic newbie so anything I'm missing or doing wrong let me know.

few things to note:
1) It is general purpose - I have a number of uses for this in addition to controlling soldering irons: hotplate,oven using external SSR and K-type thermocouple. Also I may have a few more offbeat uses, more on that later.
2) I'm trying to fit it into a standard 5x5cm SS/ITEAD format with Through hole components (its a bit of a squeeze!)
3) It is powered either via the USB or externally by a 5V regulated input hard wired by choosing of L1/L2

Let me know your thoughts, probably made lots of mistakes..

regards
Al
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 09, 2011, 10:42:49 pm
here's the 18f2550 from me - part 2 :)
The pwm I need for driver so contrast is on pot still as only 2 pwm's on this one

One other important thing. ON/OFF control with hysteresis ain't gonna cut it for me. The thermal delay is just too long with solomon iron, it oscilates on 40C swing, that's acceptable but not to me. Mine heated chamber oscillates 2C and I want to rebuild the controller .. 40C is just embarrassing :D so I'll revisit the 16F firmware to see if I can somehow squeeze PID or at least PI control in (most probably the PTC vs K-type will be compile time and not run time settings) I'll do it.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 09, 2011, 10:58:12 pm
[quote author="Folknology"]
Let me know your thoughts[/quote]

You really want to link encoder to interrupt pins. The way you did it you have to pull pin state in a loop so all your mcu will be doing is handling encoder.

Multiplexing 7segs work ok if they run on priority interrupt but you have USB on priority so if usb start pushing some info trough the line the 7segs will blink - visibly. It is much better to add a 74HC595 and use 3 separate 7segs - you use only 4 pins on mcu for as many digits as you like and there's no blinking + you can use pwm to fade them if you like :)

Ktype sensor gives you "what is the difference between hot and cold joint". Hot joint is inside the heater, cold joint is inside the handle (where chromel and alumel are connected to copper wires that then go trough cable into your controller) so in order to know the temperature of the tip you need to add temperature you read from the sensor to the temperature of the handle. As handle is on "ambient" temperature you can measure ambient temperature directly on the controller. That's why I have DS18B20 on board. You can use LM35 or any other thermometer to measure ambient temperature.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Folknology on September 10, 2011, 12:18:25 am
Thanks arhi

Quote
You really want to link encoder to interrupt pins. The way you did it you have to pull pin state in a loop so all your mcu will be doing is handling encoder.

Well I just need it to pay attention when the button is pressed and encoder is changed, I don't want it to do anything when button isn't pressed (its encoder with button built in).

Quote
Multiplexing 7segs work ok if they run on priority interrupt but you have USB on priority so if usb start pushing some info trough the line the 7segs will blink - visibly. It is much better to add a 74HC595 and use 3 separate 7segs - you use only 4 pins on mcu for as many digits as you like and there's no blinking + you can use pwm to fade them if you like :)

Your 74HC595 is cool but I'm trying to squeeze this into a small board so will have to figure this out somehow in firmware. I need to think carefully about this.

Quote
Ktype sensor gives you "what is the difference between hot and cold joint". Hot joint is inside the heater, cold joint is inside the handle (where chromel and alumel are connected to copper wires that then go trough cable into your controller) so in order to know the temperature of the tip you need to add temperature you read from the sensor to the temperature of the handle. As handle is on "ambient" temperature you can measure ambient temperature directly on the controller. That's why I have DS18B20 on board. You can use LM35 or any other thermometer to measure ambient temperature.

Yeah I can add that internally or externally I guess, maybe have it as an option on the board. I'm looking at the different solutions for this as well as the DS18B20.

regards
Al
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 10, 2011, 12:49:51 am
[quote author="Folknology"]Well I just need it to pay attention when the button is pressed and encoder is changed, I don't want it to do anything when button isn't pressed (its encoder with button built in).
[/quote]

You do not want to have encoder being read only when button is pressed. Also reading encoder by just pulling the port values usually miss few steps from the encoder (not that it is too important not to miss a step in this case but ..). Also you will save up on flash if you just put them on interrupt pins. It's what interrupt pins are for :D not that you have to use them for something else.




Quote
Your 74HC595 is cool but I'm trying to squeeze this into a small board so will have to figure this out somehow in firmware. I need to think carefully about this.

I ain't one making nor selling them so not mine in any way :D.. it's just a small chip, it should not take up too much pcb real-estate. Also if your goal is to fit it on 5x5, why not go smd. both pic and 595 and the op's are available in SOIC packages and they have raster anyone can solder with any soldering iron that can solder trough hole elements. Using 1206 resistors and capacitors and it will all be small enough to fit on 5x5 but would be super easy to solder. Note - I don't suggest going 0402 and qfn :D .. 1206 and SOIC is as easy to solder as is trough hole (actually much easier to me then trough hole).

Quote
Yeah I can add that internally or externally I guess, maybe have it as an option on the board. I'm looking at the different solutions for this as well as the DS18B20.

You have to have it on PCB .. I used DS18B20 because it requires only a single resistor and can be soldered directly on board. You can also go with some NTC in resistor divider, would work too .. some LM would require amplification and as you are saving on the board space .. I'd go with NTC or DS ..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: eeAlchemist on September 10, 2011, 12:53:33 am
Quote
Wrt adding capacitors in the feedback for opamps I have no clue how that works (I suck significantly with analog electronics, op-amps in particular) but I will take your word for it and add the two caps :D. I do some NF in software but if this will add some NF in hardware - even better :D

Here is a simulation I ran for filtering the TK voltage sensing. It steps through the list of [s:]resistors[/s:] capacitors seen at the bottom of the schematic.  Each of the colored plots is the output voltage with a different cap installed at the Cx locations. You can see how it quiets down nicely and the cap gets bigger.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 10, 2011, 12:53:50 am
btw if you are using PTC sensor like Weller (PT20) or HAKKO (PT ?!@$#%) then you don't care about ambient temperature, but then also you don't need to have the ktype amplification and that could be done simpler ..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 10, 2011, 12:57:13 am
[quote author="eeAlchemist"]Here is a simulation I ran for filtering the TK voltage sensing. [/quote]

Thanks I was running the similar simulation today to see how they actually effect the circuit :) They will definitely help :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Folknology on September 10, 2011, 01:02:48 am
Quote
Also if your goal is to fit it on 5x5, why not go smd. both pic and 595 and the op's are available in SOIC packages and they have raster anyone can solder with any soldering iron that can solder trough hole elements

In this case its not me soldering it, its beginners which is why I'm avoiding any smd, I have another design that is smd but it is radically different from this and there is plenty of room in this case.


See attached for idea of how tight it is using through hole!

regards
Al
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: eeAlchemist on September 10, 2011, 01:04:34 am
Quote
Let me know your thoughts,
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 11, 2011, 09:01:07 pm
[quote author="Folknology"]See attached for idea of how tight it is using through hole!
[/quote]

those 3x7segs have some clearance between board and resin on the back of them IIRC. So in theory you could add a bunch of trough hole pieces under the 7seg module, just send the parts on the other side of the pcb and nicely clip the wires after soldering (those solder joints that go under 7seg module). I did that with many projects back in the day, DIP easily goes on the other side of the board and dip pin don't protrude trough board enough to cause 7seg to have issue with them :). Only thing is you can't do it ~1-1.5mm near the edge of the 7seg as there's a plastic box and a resin "climbs" the box edges a so clearance is there slightly lower.

Anyhow you could put a whole 18F2550 under the 7seg, or at least all those resistors ..
I'd push the 7seg down, put the 18F under it (on the other side of the board) and arrange rest of the stuff for easy routing. There's also another way and that's to leave all components as is and send just the 7seg on the other side of the board .. that would also work (you might want to send the USB connector to other side too).

You also might want to use miniB and not full size B as you are on this picture, mini B also comes in trough hole version.

One more hint, it's MCP1525 not MC1525 :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 11, 2011, 09:08:37 pm
I'm back on the 16F firmware, the swing I have without PID is huge (40C) so I'm trying to incorporate PID in the 16F firmware.

I made it happen, full PID is there but I had to remove some options
1. no full menu, when you press button you can select start up temp and that's it. No even text "select startup temp" is present. Taking into account I'm working on the 18F version too I think 16F version could be the "simple" one with a simple interface only.
2. no real time selection of the sensor type. Since one will rarely just swap the pencil I assume this will work as well. You flash what you want to use. Selection between sensor type is simple define in firmware

There's a full pid there but without auto tuning. I might be able to get the auto tuning in but it's very very very very tight for space. 16F and floats really don't work well together. Since there's no menu, PID values must be entered in firmware. They are actually stored in EEPROM for easy change.

What is left now is to calculate pid coefficients for the solomon handle (as here I can precisely measure temperature) and then try the same ones with the HAKKO handle too.. it should work as both have same strength of heater + fairly same thermal mass so PID coefficients should be identical
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 12, 2011, 03:49:58 am
PID testing done.

As it is always rise time vs overshoot I think I found acceptable value for control parameters, especially because these cannot be changed runtime (unfortunately - you have to put them in eeprom, or maybe even in code, I need to see if I will have enough ram to add read_eeprom 24 more times).

The firmware is tight in this pic and everything not required is removed. No fancy menus, only thing you can do run time is set target temperature and set startup temp (and even that might have to go, but I think I'll manage to keep it) ... 18F will hopefully give more room for menus and runtime configuration .. but since I already have 2 stations made with 16F I need this fw to work properly too :) (upgrading it with menus later is easy :) )

Attached the response curve. As you can see 280sec into the test I pushed the soldering iron on the dump sponge and held it there until 320sec then I let it "rest" up a bit and then I pushed the tip into the glass of water for 20-30sec .. As you can see the output pwm gave it bit more juice and the temperature didn't miss targeted 250C by nothing serious. PWM output is only 0-15 levels so not a very high resolution but seems more then capable to keep this baby spot on (0.1C is the play during stable time, when you solder it moves ~0.3C +- that's not noticeable on this graph, and strong cooling like sponge/water get it to skip 5-6C but nothing significant). The data on graph is sampled in every ~100-110ms while PID routine is called only once per second.

There's no way I can add self tuning code in 16F690, not even if I remove "everything" from there and leave only PID code :(

BTW when I'm at "removing everything" - this graph shows only the output from the thermocouple, there's no read out from the DS as I had to remove the DS code for PID testing - it's because I made PID koefficients changeable via encoder so I can experiment without reflashing.. so the actual temperature of the iron is about 280C (cca 30C here at my work space attm)

Comments are welcome, I'm off now to integrate all this into working firmware for 16F690 so that I can finish with 16F wrt this project :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 12, 2011, 04:00:34 am
btw, some info about the "method" for data gathering, maybe someone find it useful :)

1. I am printing printf("%10.3f, %8.4f, %Ld, %6.2f, %6.2frn", milliseconds/1000.0, Pk, outPWM, current/10.0, temperature/10.0); to the serial port (9600bps nothing fast, no need)
2. Then I attached some USB2TTL serial adapter to my linux box (silabs cp2102 this time but not really relevant)
3. soldered a piece of wire directly on the pin10 of 16F690 (TX) because it is not broken out on my pcb
4. linked TX with USB2TTL + linked grounds
5. on linux I start
Code: [Select]
screen -L /dev/ttyUSB0 9600
This starts screen on the /dev/ttyUSB0 port using 9600bps speed. What's important part is -L as this tells screen to start logging everything on the screen so the screen creates ~/screenlog.0 and start filling it in. This way you are able to see real time data as it comes from the serial port and you have a log in a file

6. I start wonderful program called KST (http://http://kst-plot.kde.org/). I know it works on linux (comes with default distro) but no idea if there's a windoze version. I assume it does but if thy use windoze feel free to check out the link.

7. In KST (http://http://kst-plot.kde.org/) I go trough data wizard, tell it that data is in the ~/screenlog.0, that I use ", " as delimiter and after few next, next, next I have the real time data graphing in front of me :). As screen actually flushes data only once per second (maybe faster if more data comes) you see updates of the graph only once per second, but you see numeric data in your screen session real time ... You can tell KST (http://http://kst-plot.kde.org/) to use /dev/ttyUSB0 as a source for data (probably, I have not tried) but I kinda want to see the numbers + I like to have the log file for later checkup too ..

I hope this procedure helps someone too :) .. you can fetch same way data from arduino or any other serial logger (for e.g. BusPirate :D you can graph the analog input this way)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 12, 2011, 06:14:52 am
yes, great tool. I'm not advanced user, I can go trough wizard and get mu graphs ... I haven't managed to make anything show up on the FFT graphs .. but the main things work easy ... one should rtfm a bit to turn on the advanced options :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on September 12, 2011, 08:52:00 am
The PID looks great.

Is it a pulse-skip PWM basically? What is the period?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: eeAlchemist on September 12, 2011, 01:21:38 pm
Quote
As it is always rise time vs overshoot I think I found acceptable value...

Increasing the sensitivity to "D" may help the overshoot.

Quote
I start wonderful program called KST....
I hope my little laptop can handle this.
I will definitely look into this as I have the solid state relay and will start tweaking the PID for the reflow oven project.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 12, 2011, 03:18:22 pm
[quote author="ian"]Is it a pulse-skip PWM basically? What is the period?[/quote]

~2Hz (16*32.7ms is the period)

Code: [Select]
//called every 32.7ms
#INT_TIMER1
void tmr1(){
  static unsigned int8 wherePWM = 0;
 
  if (bit_test(pwm, wherePWM++)){
    HEATER_ON();
  } else {
    HEATER_OFF();
  }
  if (wherePWM > 15) wherePWM = 0;
}

//outPWM is output from the PID routine with value 0-15
void setPWM(){
  pwm = 0xFFFF >> (15- (char) outPWM );
}
so as you can see the pwm variable holds as many ones as the return of the pwm is. In theory you could generate 0b010101.. but no real point to it, this way I get best results ... (for e.g. value of 10 is 0b0000001111111111 so for 6*32.7ms the heater will be off and for 10x32.7ms heater will be on - note that it's not 100% true as on output we have zero crossing detection and the AC signal we are switching is hitting zero every 10ms so we have a 0-10ms delay on any switch on so the duty cycle for ON period could be slightly lower in reality then it is outputted. That's why I selected 32.7ms as the timer1 interrupt time as it makes this error small enough with high enough precision of the output pwm. For the 18F I think I'll try the high freq pwm and no zero crossing driver for initial testing, should work better but is easier to implement and is even faster as for low power like this iron, only 50W, there's really no need to use zero crossing, I use zero crossing on my heated bed/chamber as I have a kW heater there so turning it on on zero makes more sense :D )

[quote author="eeAlchemist"]
Increasing the sensitivity to "D" may help the overshoot.
[/quote]
Yes of course, I tried that too but I started to hit oscillations / had problems with stability when I turned it higher so I decided to go with this fairly conservative values. Hopefully 18F version will allow for real time changing of the params so it will be easy for anyone to tweak it real time ..

[quote author="eeAlchemist"]
I hope my little laptop can handle this.
[/quote]

it just reads the data from the file and created graphs real time ... I don't see why it would not run on your laptop :) but if you use windoze - everything is possible :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on September 12, 2011, 05:47:56 pm
hi arhi i use a timer interupt for the PWM, every time the counter interupts a CN char variable is increased 0-255, and within the iterupt routine a IF statment is placed

IF CN<PWM
set the pin,
else clear it.

that way I get 0-100% pwm with  0.4% increments

PID calculates the PWM char variable after a temp was read, witch updates every 0.2s,
that way if PWM to lets sa 17, the heater is on for 17 timer cycles, and off for 255-17=238 cycles.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: LeissKG on September 12, 2011, 07:54:25 pm
I may totally wrong here, but i assume most of the overshoot is from the I part getting to big during the ramp up. I see two possible solutions for this, you either limit the I part or start the PID only if you are in a narrow window ( lets say 25 degrees ) around the desired temperature. Outside it , it is a simple on/off regulator.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 12, 2011, 08:38:24 pm
@LeissKG, There's a lot of way's to remove the overshoot .. and they are very simple .. for e.g. with PID = {0.07, 0.009, 0.38} there's no overshoot at all, but I don't mind overshoot for the initial turn on (as the iron is usually set initially to 200-250C), when you "reset" the tharget point the overshoot is minimal (few degrees only).

@arakis, that works only without zero crossing detection. Also calculating pid every 0.2sec does not help much too. Running pid more then 2times per sec never yields good results in my experience :) (making the hot plate and heated chamber I spend way too much time tweaking the pid + autotuning and finally the major problem was actually the sampling time, sampling too fast make pid behave worse because you lose a lot of precision as you use floats .. especially if you use low resolution pwm)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on September 12, 2011, 09:27:41 pm
I forgot to mention my station works with 24V DC, not AC, so no zerocrossing is needed
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 12, 2011, 09:32:22 pm
with DC you can do standard PWM with 10-14bit resolution :) and get even finer results .. that's what I do with low power heaters ... but as I'm going to use similar board for my next heated chamber controller I need to be able to switch few amps and 230VAC
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on September 12, 2011, 11:14:37 pm
*sory for offtopic, let me just finish. I bought 2 pics, one to experiment on and the other to actualy use, the second one for some reason just couldn't get the hardware PWM to work, while the first worked perfectly, then the first one died after 12V apered out of *nowere and preaty much made miced meat out of it, and by nowere I mean I placed the wrong jumper on my bredboard PS and insted of 3V I got 12. :D.  so I was stuck with this software PWM
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 12, 2011, 11:43:37 pm
yeah 12V on the Vdd can kill it completely, 12V on input pin usually just kills the pin.

As for non working pwm, you most likely miss-configured some config's (not sure about that pic you are using but lot of 18f's have ccp on few pins and you define with FUSE what pin will be ccp. If you don't set anything default value is not guaranteed)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 13, 2011, 04:15:49 am
I finally figured out how to get sensor data for the HAKKO soldering iron :D ... idiot, this was soooo easy.... thing is - I have station already that works .. it is unfortunately analog but it's closer then anything else I could find so .. I took a 100R multiturn pot and attached it to my station instead of the hakko pencil and started increasing resistance from 0. I set the station to 200C and when the heat indicator turned off I stopped turning and measured the resistance, then I set it to 225C and did the same thing, repeated until I reached 425C and 95R8. 450C was over 100R and I didn't want to solder on another resistor, had no 200R pot so I assume if 200-425 ain't gonna help those 450 and 480 values are not going to help either :). Then I measured resistance of the sensor on room temperature (1.7R - 27C) and plotted a graph - it's darn linear :D

so here is the resistance table for the HAKKO 907 ptc sensor:
Code: [Select]
C	     R
 27   1.7
200 42.0
225 50.0
250 56.5
275 63.3
300 69.3
325 74.8
350 80.6
375 84.6
400 90.6
425 95.8

Attached is the original schema for the output of the analog driver (this output is then compared to output generated by voltage divider and another op, but it shows the first amplification stage for the sensor in original HAKKO analog station). The 1N751 used in the schematic is:
Code: [Select]
*1N751
*Motorola 5.1V 500mW Si Zener pkg:DO-35 1,2
.MODEL D1N751 D(IS=1E-11 RS=7.708 N=1.27 TT=5E-8 CJO=4.068E-10 VJ=0.75 M=0.33 BV=4.946 IBV=0.01 )
You can add this to your standard.dio file if you do not have it there already

LM324 model is in the archive


EDIT: if it is not clear from the schematic - the R6 is the sensor. All resistors in the schematic has to be 1% accurate. R2 needs to be 2W 1% (metal film), C3 has to be min 50V (all other cap's 25V is ok), R3 is actually a 300R multiturn for calibration.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: eeAlchemist on September 13, 2011, 11:30:48 am
Wow, that does look linear. See suggestion attached.

[attachment=0]

I'm curious. Why is there different gains for +/- signals on the second stage?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 13, 2011, 05:12:48 pm
The "looks reversed" D1 is producing 820mV Vref so it's actually properly polarized.
As for the different gains - I have zero ideas :) - to be clear - this is a copy of the original hakko 936 sensor amplifier, it's not my own design (I only drawn the thing in ltspice to try to simulate it). btw if you are simulating it, for some reason it takes too muc time for ltspice to handle the first part (where Vref, Vcc and Vee are generated) so remove the whole power part and just set Vref to 820mV, Vcc to 11.65V and Vee to -5.08V. Then the simulation goes almost real time :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 24, 2011, 01:14:42 am
Here's the finished version of both code and the schematic/pcb's for the pic16F690 version of soldering driver.

NOTES:

Licence info
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on September 24, 2011, 10:03:05 am
The two tear down articles are great!
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 24, 2011, 11:15:44 am
The google translate works better and better every time :). I didn't figured out how to use wordpress to write "dual language" posts, but it's ok this way too...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: fcobcn on October 05, 2011, 03:10:40 pm
Great work arhi!
Do you plan to make PCBs available?
Would love to build a couple of units.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 05, 2011, 03:29:58 pm
pcb available in what way? The gerber files are available in the archive .. schematic and pcb source is available as proteus files and schematic is available as kicad ... I don't have pcb as kicad because I don't want to waste time making it (I seriously dislike pcb part of kicad) .. if you want pcb you can make one using provided gerbers...

btw I'm working on 18F based solution (usb bootloader and all) that will be published when it is done .. attm I'm working on something more urgent (non electronics bread and butter related stuff)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: fcobcn on October 05, 2011, 04:01:25 pm
arhi, sorry for been vague,
Maybe you have produced a batch of PCBs, and you may want to sell or trade a few of them.
Or maybe more people in the forum are also interested, so a group order could be organized.
A 18F usb version sounds great!
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 05, 2011, 05:38:57 pm
No worries, not being native speaker usually makes stuff come out not the way we intended :D

I made the batch of v2.0 pcb's that you can see on the first post in this topic. They have error in the top silk (jp2 and jp3 mark is wrong) and the power is not solved properly and for some reason I placed the triac in the middle of the board (idiot). I use those boards (I attach external board with mc34063 instead of 7805 on board, and I attach triac via wires to the pcb) as I have them. I gave away most of them but still have few more, if you want one pm me address and I'll ship it to you for free. The old 2.0 version work with latest firmware, it's just that latest version is "cleaner / nicer" :)

As I mentioned I'm working on 18F2550 version (gone trough 6-7 revisions already) but paused for now as I'm busy with work .. I should post the work I did so far if someone wanna continue .. if I understood Ian right he wanted to add the 18F version of pcb's to his pcb drawer so you might wanna wait for that version, I'm sure it'll be over in 2 weeks the latest.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 06, 2011, 04:38:17 pm
Here's the latest pic18f2550 schematic

Debugging, monitiring etc:
- USB
- UART
- ICSP

GUI:
 - 16x2 lcd with backlight connected to pwm output
 - encoder with button
 - 3 buttons for quick functions
 
Sensors:
 - NTC (the cheapest possible way to measure temp) for ambient temp
 - amplification of 240x to read thermocouple or ptc
 
Output:
 - optocoupler with triak output driving triak

The backlight intenisity is controlled with pwm (Ian requested :D)
The heater is on PWM pin so if a driver without zero crossing is used you can use hw pwm, if one with zero crossing is used you have to use software pwm
Encoder is connected to the interrupt on change pins
Buttons 1-3 are connected to int0-int2 pins

Connecting input pins to interrupt pins is important if you want to have usb working as spending time in loop reading buttons don't work nice with usb.

All input pins are hw debounced (74hc14 + capacitor). You do not have to as all input pins used are already ST (if I remember correctly) and  but I like to add external schmidt as 74hc14 is under 0.1eur
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 07, 2011, 05:24:32 pm
Few more pictures of the PID control with the 16F690

As you can see it is far from ideal but more then good enough for soldering iron. Autotuning pid would be nice but imo in this case not required at all... This is better curve then any commercial soldering iron driver I tried.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on October 07, 2011, 05:46:22 pm
I think this is a good marketing strategy: why aren't closed source irons willing to show their curves ;)

I think this is a good use for the USB port on the 18F2550 - updates and to graph (live?) performance variables.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 07, 2011, 06:28:34 pm
[quote author="ian"]I think this is a good use for the USB port on the 18F2550 - updates and to graph (live?) performance variables.[/quote]


I'm using uart for that and I will use uart for that on 18f2550 too .. as you can notice on design I made there is usb port so firmware can use it, but I can say in advance I will not use usb for anything except for bootloader as I don't want usb routines to take up space on the flash nor cpu cycles ... of course usb port is there for anyone willing to write firmware that uses it :D

Btw, wrt power supply part of the project, MC34063 is cheap and accessible but require a lot of parts so here's schematic that uses LM2574-05. Works better, requires smaller amount of parts and is only slightly more expensive.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 07, 2011, 06:49:38 pm
[quote author="ian"]why aren't closed source irons willing to show their curves ;)[/quote]

actually I think that you can see the curve for the latest hakko irons

check out for e.g. FX888 (http://http://www.hakko.com/english/products/hakko_fx888.html) there are some curves there

(http://http://www.hakko.com/english/products/imgs/other/fx888/fx888_graph1.gif)
(http://http://www.hakko.com/english/products/imgs/other/fx888/fx888_graph2.gif)

and as you can see, they do not have overshoot I have :D .. It's not a big deal to remove that overshoot I just don't have time to play too much with pid parameters (this was "good enough"). Maybe when I get the 18F station made I can add real time PID parameters tweaking ..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 07, 2011, 07:16:05 pm
one important difference between this graphs hakko presented and ones I presented is that I measure temperature of the heater and they measure "important temperature" of the tip. I need to see if I have some old hakko tips that I don't use any more to drill them in and mount a thermocouple in the tip (sealed with fire cement) and then repeat all the measurements .. I believe I'd get very different results as the "driver" is reading temperature from the heater while we are interested in temperature of the tip (that's why tip temperature don't go over 320C during soldering even while tip temp is set to 350C on the hakko graph). Would be an interesting thing to test ..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 09, 2011, 01:23:00 am
WRT power supply .. I checked past 2 days few original drivers for some soldering irons (ISKRA, HAKKO, QUICK, SOLOMON, WELLER and few unnamed stations) in order to check what output they have on the transformer. What I found is that all use standard EI / EL transformer (the cube). Some have 230/110 switch and some are 230V only (220V actually as they are all old). The ones with switch had center tapped primary coil and ones without switch had only a single input on the primary coil. They all had 24V output but some also had additional outputs on the secondary coil. Solomon for e.g. use center tapped secondary coil and the electronics actually use the 12VAC to operate, ISKRA and Weller had 6-7V, 12V and 24V outputs, HAKKO had only 24V output, QUICK had 6V, 24V and 48V output but the 6V and 48V are used only for the heat gun (it is combo of iron+heat air)... all unnamed iron controllers I opened had only 24V output from the transformer..

This short research convinced me that removing the 7805 and second AC input is a best way to go about power supply part of the schematic because you can't except to find anything but 24VAC inside the iron you try to modify. Also I will be moving to LM2574-05 completely. It is bit more expensive then MC34063 but it takes way less PCB real-estate and works like a charm.

In case TC is used I believe we should use some good voltage reference ... a 4.8-4.9 reference would be cool but I was unable to find a simple precise one. If anyone can suggest a good cheap 4.8-4.9 voltage reference with a simple usage schematic I'd appreciate it. With NTC/PTC sensor the voltage reference is irrelevant because you always measure voltage on the NTC compared to Vdd but with TC you measure absolute voltage from the TC and that's where your voltage reference becomes important. I could use 2.5V reference and reduce amplification gain to 120... it should work too .. I have locally LM385Z2.5 but I never used it before so I'm without experience with it ..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: eeAlchemist on October 09, 2011, 06:12:38 pm
I'm not sure what kind of ppm you are looking for but I like the TL431 or TL1431 as it is a versatile part and an adjustable reference. The programming resistors take away from the over all accuracy but it adjustable so you can tweak out the initial tolerance.

To me the PID looks 'I' heavy and that is where the overshoot is coming from. It looks like the D is getting swamped out. It has the shape of -I.

Also when you start playing with the loop again, consider changing D = dERROR/dt to dTEMPERATURE/dt. This is a much easier loop to tune as makes the D variable more independent of P and I.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 09, 2011, 06:33:53 pm
I tried TL431 but I did something wrong as it was not working properly. For some reason however I setup this type of references I end up having output voltage depending on the input voltage ... I know it's me who's doing something wrong here .. that's why I asked for "with a simple usage schematic" as I'm obviously reading something wrong so :D if you used TL431 and don't mind drawing a small schematic I'd be grateful :D .. I used exactly the same schematic from the datasheet and got shit on the output :(

Wrt PID looks like you haven't looked at the source :D

Code: [Select]
void pidCompute(){
/**/
  float error;
  float dCurrent;
 
  unsigned int32 now;
  static unsigned int32 oldTime = 0;
 
  now = milliseconds;
 
  if( (now - oldTime) >= 1000){ //more then 1000ms elapsed

      error = temperature / 10.0 - current / 10.0;
      ITerm += (Ik * error);
      if (ITerm > maxPWM){
        ITerm = maxPWM;
      } else if(ITerm < minPWM){
          ITerm= minPWM;
      }
     
      // negative input derivative instead of
      // positive error derivative works better when changing target
      dCurrent = current / 10.0 - oldCurrent / 10.0;
 
      outPWM = Pk * error + ITerm - Dk * dCurrent;
      if(outPWM > maxPWM){
        outPWM = maxPWM;
      } else if(outPWM < minPWM){
        outPWM = minPWM;
      }
 
      oldCurrent = current;
      oldTime = now;
      setPWM();
  } 
  /**/
}

I believe

Quote
      // negative input derivative instead of
      // positive error derivative works better when changing target
      dCurrent = current / 10.0 - oldCurrent / 10.0;

is what you suggested, and it's already there from the start :) I'm playing with heaters for a while now so I know few tricks :D ... (ignore the /10.0 it's because I keep all the temperatures in 0.1C values and not in 1C values)

As for the overshoot I agree it comes from the high I value but I didn't find that problematic. Reducing I a bit and increasing D a bit should solve it but the time overshoot last is very short so actually the overshoot don't actually propagate to the tip as we measure temperature of the heater not the temperature of the tip itself. I need to find one old tip and drill it trough so I can put a NTC or a TC inside the tip to measure real tip temperature while doing this pid as this is all only measuring the heater sensor data
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: eeAlchemist on October 11, 2011, 02:16:55 pm
I use it like the datasheet says.

One thing about it is that you have to watch the capacitor value used across it for filtering. There is a range that makes it unstable.

This dosen't really stand out in the datasheet so it can give you trouble if you don't know about it. I'll see if I can dig up some examples of how I have used it.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 11, 2011, 02:28:42 pm
thanks, I might used too big cap as I tend to do that often :D .. will test it again
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on October 24, 2011, 11:58:13 am
Here is a DP version of Arhi's soldering Iron driver. First, tahnks to Arhi for developing it in the first place and working with me to help out this design.

The most obvious change from his design is that it is all through hole, with only 4 jumpers used. Also the Shmitt trigger IC was dropped 'cause the input pins on the PIC are ST already. USB /UART/ICSP interfaces are all provided. And for version 1 there are a few breakout pins allowing for future prototyping,  we wanna figure out if its possible to drive the Irons via a DC laptop supply, along with true PWM.

Here is the Version 1 , schematic and pcb files.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 24, 2011, 04:08:31 pm
As I mentioned on the forum, to get a true readout from the TC you really need a voltage reference. TL431 or something similar ..
WRT DC laptop supply (mostly 19V these days) you might want to trigger 2 opto's. The second one (in series with MOC) should be a opto that's driving a FET. That's just another 6pin dip and another TO203 on board and you can run the device both on DC and AC :) (you simply decide to mount FET or to mount TRIAC :D )

As I mentioned once, I only fear that DC don't make iron magnetic :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sqkybeaver on October 24, 2011, 04:13:03 pm
[quote author="arhi"]As I mentioned on the forum, to get a true readout from the TC you really need a voltage reference.[/quote]

for anyone interested Dave @ the EEVblog recently did a review where he briefly covered voltage reference.http://http://www.eevblog.com/2011/10/24/eevblog-210-krohn-hite-dc-voltage-standard-teardown-calibration/
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 24, 2011, 04:17:17 pm
Great, thanks. I missed that one :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sqkybeaver on October 24, 2011, 04:20:17 pm
[quote author="arhi"]Great, thanks. I missed that one :D[/quote]

he covers some other interesting analog topics too.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on October 25, 2011, 04:35:58 pm
[quote author="arhi"]As I mentioned on the forum, to get a true readout from the TC you really need a voltage reference. TL431 or something similar ..
WRT DC laptop supply (mostly 19V these days) you might want to trigger 2 opto's. The second one (in series with MOC) should be a opto that's driving a FET. That's just another 6pin dip and another TO203 on board and you can run the device both on DC and AC :) (you simply decide to mount FET or to mount TRIAC :D )

As I mentioned once, I only fear that DC don't make iron magnetic :)[/quote]

Is it really necessary to use a Vref, since you SID obiusly works, and the temperature read is never gonna be that accurate considering we are reading the heater temp not Tip.. even so the Vref pin is broken out so testing and fideling with adding a reference is possible.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 25, 2011, 04:49:28 pm
With HAKKO or any other PTC/NTC sensor Vref is irrelevant but with SOLOMON or any other TC sensor I think we should add it .. necessary - no, not really, but IMO a good design practice :) ... 1C is ~0.01V (5/512) so if you have 50mV error on the DCDC output that's 5C error on the TC readout .. not a really big issue for the SID but it will push some garbage into a PID control algorithm.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 28, 2011, 07:01:32 pm
I just made a "special tip" for HAKKO to proceed with testing of this 16F based driver before I start playing with the 18F one DP we are making (I do think we outta make a separate thread for the 18F version, this thread is over 10 pages long).

What I did is I found one old tip (fine cone, tip of it burned out and broke off) I don't use any more and I drilled the hole in it. I must say that outer shell of the tip is darn hard !!! inside is of course simple red copper :D. I pushed a 204GT NTC thermistor (one I use a lot that have a "known" curve and for which I have tables already calculated in many of my firmwares) into a hole and sealed with thermal glue (some super expensive kind :( ). I used to use similar technique with hot ends on my 3d printers and the temperature readout is super precise. I positioned NTC on the fat side of the tip (ppl say that's proper place to measure tip temp, I did it because there's most meet :D ) so I had to cut a bit of the holding pipe in order for wires of the NTC to be free.

It looks great attm, I will make some charts comparing measured temperature from the PTC, behavior of the PID (that only regulate temperature of the iron based on the sensor located in the heater and not in the tip) and the temperature of the heater in "free" and "busy" modes (soldering some joints). Hopefully this will give us some interesting results :D

Btw I did some research and the new hakko, all pace and many other "new and expensive" soldering irons moved the sensor from the heater to the tip this way or another. The pace for e.g. has sensor integrated into tip, the new hakko have a hole inside the tip where sensor snaps in when you push the tip on to a handle etc etc .. so they all moved sensor closer to the tip in order to have better tip temperature control.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: senso on October 31, 2011, 12:40:36 pm
I have one doubt, I have a termocouple that I bought from ladyAda and I have a soldering iron from JBC, and I want to joint then, plus a TRIAC and an Atmega8 to add temperature control to the iron, but I have one doubt, the iron an an earth wire, and I think that if I put the termocouple in contact with the iron it will not read anything due to the earth wire, I'm I correct or can I safelly put the sensor in contact with the iron and call it a day?
I not maybe I could remove the earth wire, but that is probably dangerous because the iron works at 230V AC.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 31, 2011, 01:50:46 pm
the iron is "earthed" but is not connected to the circuit ground (usually not), and it is grounded via 10 or 100M resistor so you have no issues there. The bigger problem is if the iron short the leads of the TC .. as that would introduce errors in reading.

Btw note that TC just touching the tip will not nearly give you proper temperature readout. For e.g. when this tip is at 250C the TC that is touching it registers less then 100C !!! Problem is that minimal TC sensor area I ever seen is ~1mm ball and when ball try to make contact with cone .. the contact area is very small and your output is average temp of the whole ball, not the "highest point" so if you want to read the real temperature of the tip you need to push the probe inside the tip.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on November 01, 2011, 02:04:57 pm
Your hacking into this subject continues to get more impressive. I love the blog posts, and I look forward to seeing your tests with this setup.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 07, 2011, 11:39:57 am
Ian, Arakis .. one hint ... FOOT SWITCH :D !!!!

I was looking trough some boxes and found foot switch (http://http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/foot-switch-tfs201-p-665.html?cPath=156_160) that arrived from seeed while ago ... I think we should have support for it on the 18F version
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: magius on November 07, 2011, 12:27:13 pm
Is it right the last schema posted? In the old ones, the (+) and (-) inputs of the 1st op.amp. were connected in the opossite way (for thermystor pencils, with switches on).
In the last schema the (+) entry is connected to GND and (-) to Vdd-Vthermystor and seems to be an inverter amplifier.

By the way, lot of thanks Arhi for this great proyect!
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 07, 2011, 05:28:39 pm
sorry man, there's both me and arakis posting schematics into this topic, the latest one with pic16f690 is the one "working", there are few with 18F2550 but those are still under development ...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on November 08, 2011, 04:43:23 pm
Footswitch is good idea. I think 28 pins is too limiting for all the junk we want to add :) V2 should be 40 for sure (my aoyue has a 40 pin DIP ATMEL in it).
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: magius on November 08, 2011, 05:40:46 pm
[quote author="arhi"]sorry man, there's both me and arakis posting schematics into this topic, the latest one with pic16f690 is the one "working", there are few with 18F2550 but those are still under development ...[/quote]

I'll try to explain, I'm working in a version with 18F2550 using Pinguino (an arduino-like platform, suporting 18F2550, 18F4550 & PIC32MX440F2). I've bought a Hakko pencil and I've soldered the sensor amplifier part using the 1st schemas like
[attachment=1]
It amplified well but with a lot of noise (maybe the themysor, the USB source or the protoboard I'm using for testing before to join all the parts).

But I've seen in the last schema posted by "arakis" that the op.amp. connections have changed:
[attachment=0]

I changed to the new design but it didn't amplify the thermystor signal, It reduced it indeed.
So what is the correct design?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 09, 2011, 02:00:08 am
mine one is correct, arakis brought positive side of the sensor to the negative side of non inverting op

the noise is expected you have to do LF filter in software
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 11, 2011, 10:09:10 am
just had a short time off to do a small test to dump raw data from the both adc inputs (heater PTC sensor and tip NTC sensor).

One other thing to note is that openoffice graph tool is some few thousand times slower then microsoft office excel when it comes to plotting these graphs (few thousand records) :( it is really a serious problem ... and the ease excel handles this data frightens me ..

What you see on the graph is heater ON until it reached the "melting solder wire" temperature (100000ms marker) and then the heater was turned off and iron is left to cool naturally. The major problem you can see on the graph is the "shit" that is read from the PTC sensor in the heater. Data in the graph is "raw", there is no LF filter there (the driver uses a software LF filter to cut out the HF garbage) but look at this trash, there's no filter that can make this usable ... The noise go away after temperature go below 65C but that's not the temp we are interested in...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 11, 2011, 12:31:18 pm
[quote author="ian"]Footswitch is good idea. I think 28 pins is too limiting for all the junk we want to add :) V2 should be 40 for sure (my aoyue has a 40 pin DIP ATMEL in it).[/quote]

I gave up on 28pin for the bigger driver. I will go with 40pin 18f4550 or something similar. I want to be able to drive 2 irons from same controller and 28pins is too limiting in that case. I'll start making that one when I finish some more experiments with existing one and then we'll see if Arakis can make that one on a single sided board too :D

Anyhow I need to perform more tests, this huge noise on the PTC is killing me. I can solve it in software but I just don't see it as a good solution, so I'm now trying to solve it in hardware, I just need some parts so hopefully tomorrow ... at one point last night I wanted to make the bloody thing work with 2+ mcu's instead with only one but I managed to get myself to give up on that idea :D (the idea was to have a "motherboard" with some 18f2550 for usb, rs232 and lcd and to have i2c bus on what I can push daugterboards where each board control it's own heater but I managed to steer from that idea as I decided I will never use more then 2 irons on same driver hence no need for additional complexity - I just decided to go 40pin way this time)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 11, 2011, 02:20:08 pm
Some software filtering .. (waiting for parts so I can try hw filtering tomorrow)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 11, 2011, 08:11:55 pm
closing to page 13 of this project log ... had some time today to think about next step ... I will continue to tweak current 16F690 based board a bit in order to get everything to work properly (I'm still not fully satisfied with how it works) and post updates here but the "final" project with "bigger" mcu on board we discussed (18F, more pins etc etc) I decided today to take on a completely different pat :D ... Thing is I'm working on 4 parallel projects that have interchangeable parts.

 - hot bed controller for the reprap printer
 - heated chamber controller for the reprap printer
 - soldering iron controller for the PTC and K-Type sensor equipped irons
 - reflow oven

Now, they are actually way more different then I intentionally looked at them (as attm except for reflow oven other 3 devices work with more less same electronics) .. major physical differences:

 - hot bed and heated chamber controllers have no "user interface" - They have 5-6 sensors each and they communicate with reprap board via i2c/spi/rs485/lin/can and they keep a temperature on a single value, the outside influence is minimal.
 - soldering iron controller need to control one or two irons in the same time with a basic ui (display temp, set temp etc), no communication with outside world outside of a foot pedal, rotary encoder and lcd is required
 - reflow oven need to control the heat profile of the heated chamber, so apart from a need for a fancy gui (to display/edit profiles, monitor progress etc etc) you need a fancy communication with your computer to uload profiles etc etc ...

making all 4 projects using same parts just don't cut it imo ... hence I think I'm taking the "big soldering iron driver" away from usb ... rs232 is more then enough for debugging, I'll try to find a better suited 40-44pin mcu for it, heat bed and heat chamber I'll try to push into a single device with some pic that has good communication skills and reflow I'll make with a 32bit "lot of pins" device (pic32 or cortex m3 - not decided yet)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on November 12, 2011, 11:32:39 am
[quote author="arhi"] I'll start making that one when I finish some more experiments with existing one and then we'll see if Arakis can make that one on a single sided board too :D [/quote]

Bring it on :D
But, seriosly I myself would like to work with a larger uC, once the Xtal, ICSP,USB, and UART are connected you are seriusly underpined with a 28pin device.

I built my own SID a few months ago(not the DP one featured here) for solomons only, I used a 14pin device, and  it was so seroisly consticting that I had to make some seriusly poor engeneering choices just to get it to fit, which is the reason I didn't share my schematics and pcbs..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 12, 2011, 05:27:57 pm
Will do :D just need to decide on what to use for the "big" sid, 40pin dip's are rare, most of good parts come at 44 smd packages, they do have a fairly easy to solder pitch ...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 14, 2011, 12:33:53 pm
more raw data

legend

gray - ADC from PTC (sensor inside heater) with some hw filtering (obviously not enough)
yellow - ADC data from PTC after software low pass filter
green - raw ADC from NTC (embedded into tip of the iron)
red - temp in C of the tip (converted from from the NTC adc data)

As we can see yellow line (readout from the PTC after software low pass filter ) correlates properly with red line so it is "usable" info but it is still very noisy even after pretty hard low pass filter so it's good for standard hysteresis thermostat but far from usable signal for proper PID regulation. I'm still struggling to make a proper circuit to read this PTC sensor properly, looks like some basic postulates I started with are not working for me. I tried pushing as little current from the PTC as possible (as they are known to heat themselves up and screw up the reading) but in the current setup 0.3mA obviously can't get the required results. I went back to original hakko schematics for this PTC sensor and they are pushing 1mA or 20mA depending on the schematic I'm looking at (there are 2 types roaming the net, the difference is only in the polarity of the zener diode providing reference voltage, in one case it provides some 820mV and in other 5.1V hence difference in constant current driver) .. making some test pcb's so will know soon :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: piotr1600 on November 14, 2011, 11:19:57 pm
This is a great project, I've been watching it with interest...

The heating effect on the thermistor with the iron at operating temp is going to be really, really minimal -  I would think that you could totally disregard it in this specific setting.  - even with the 5.1V reference @ 20mA you'd only be looking at ~1/10w.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: welash on November 14, 2011, 11:48:29 pm
Are you sure you should populate C9?  It looks to me like the differential amp input is unbalanced. I could see that leading to noise from that stage.  Just a thought, I haven't analyzed it very closely, it just looks a bit odd.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 15, 2011, 05:35:48 am
[quote author="piotr1600"]The heating effect on the thermistor with the iron at operating temp is going to be really, really minimal[/quote]

I did solve the noise problem, now I just need to figure out the best way to include it in schematic.

[quote author="welash"]Are you sure you should populate C9?  It looks to me like the differential amp input is unbalanced. I could see that leading to noise from that stage. [/quote]

The major issue is reading 2 very different sensors with almost identical circuit and that's what causing major issues. The C9 is required for ThermoCouple sensor and the whole driver works perfectly with irons that utilize thermocouple (like Solomon that uses K-type thermocouple as a sensor), on the other hand, HAKKO and clones with it's PTC/RTD sensor produce huge amount of noise when read using this circuit. I made a new one that works perfectly with my hakko (and 2 clones) by cloning input stage of the original hakko driver and adding some tweaks to it, but as I mentioned, I now need to figure out how to incorporate that into this design.

The simplest way would be to have 2 input stages on board, but unfortunately that renders my current boards usable only for Solomon (the current driver works with hakko clones but the issue is precission, due to heavy filtering in software the precision of the temperature on the tip is worse then with analog driver hence no real benefit from using this driver will exist compared to analog hakko driver).

Since I did decide recently to make a next version with a bigger chip (40pins) and I think I have 18F4550 I/P lying around I might be better off just designing new board from scratch with that pic and 2 input stages. I just need to figure if I know how to merge the input stages of TC and RTD in one chip...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 18, 2011, 04:15:52 am
A question for ppl following this thread...

I solved the problem with reading hakko sensor .. it requires negative voltage too, not a big issue but since I heard some requests that ppl would like to run the whole device with DC power then it becomes a problem (not really a problem but requires additional components to generate negative voltage).

Another common request in last few weeks is a classic Weller sensor too... Weller also uses PTC (PT20 or to be more to the point, it uses 5 PT100 sensors connected in parallel) and ISKRA sensor (iskra used to be popular on Balkan 20-40 years ago, there is number of these available with broken driver). ISKRA uses NTC.

I decided to have a "dual" controller for next version. Dual in a sense that it can control 2 soldering irons (one display, one encoder, 2 separate temperatures ..)....

I'm not sure I will be able to get all this to fit 10x10cm board (as by minimum I need 4 input states, 2 for PTC and 2 for TC) so the question is, if it can't fit the 10x10cm board (the el cheapo dimension from seeed/itead) would it maybe be better to have a "mainboard" and 2 daughterboards, and then you can decide if your daugterboard will be PTC or TC or NTC or something else ?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on November 18, 2011, 08:06:12 am
I always prefer an integrated board, daughter-cards need connectors and make a project less professional. IMHO only though :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 18, 2011, 09:12:36 am
Yes, that is true. The stacked pcb's can look very professional but I'm not sure if this would be the case ... I'll see what I can push on a single board, but I fear smd will be required :D, or at least a bigger board
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on November 18, 2011, 09:24:05 am
It is tempting to push this project to be through hole because beginners can DIY a soldering iron, but maybe the 28pin and 16F versions are the beginner 'lite' version, and it is ok to have an SMD advanced version.  I know I would certainly be happier doing this project with a 44pin TQFP PIC and SMD small passives :) Making room for all the PTH stuff is a pain, especially a 40 pin .6 DIP  chip.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 18, 2011, 09:27:54 am
well, I can make a small changes on the 16F version so that both PTC and TC work properly (PTC is too noisy with current design) and then do a 18F version in smd to support fancy options and dual irons :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 21, 2011, 06:38:05 pm
Here's the upgrade of the 16F version. It uses different (proper) path to read HAKKO (and any other RTD/PTC sensor) and uses a jumper to select what signal is going into pic (PTC or TC). The DS is replaced with NTC. I used a quad op-amp instead of dual one and I had one free so I used it to buffer NTC output.

It should work perfectly with HAKKO too now (the older version worked perfectly with solomon and "just worked" for hakko). I'm doing some tests tonight so tomorrow I'll post up some graphs with this changed schematic :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 22, 2011, 06:19:26 am
Just few more tests but looks like this is a final schematic for the 16F690 version.

I didn't make PCB for it. I'm still testing it on stripboard+pcb+some dead bug design :D but I should have final results in few hours. Then maybe Arakis can try to make one sided board out of it (I suck big time in making one sided boards so I will let him practice :D ) who knows :D .. anyhow, I don't suggest any board making before I do the final tests :D

Some hints (should be obvious from schematic but)


Now I'm off to do that final test (so far this works perfectly with original Hakko iron, problem is that some clones are very low quality so I'm about to test few of them too)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 22, 2011, 09:52:24 am
Here it is, RAW ADC - no averaging, no LF filter in software - pure adc data - and it's smooth as a baby's butt :D

It looks like the gain of 40 is too much as I see some clipping when 270C marker was hit (my NTC goes only up to 270C) but everything looks perfect. The only change is that value of R28 need to be reduced so that we can measure up to 500C. Since other PTC sensors (for e.g. Weller use PT20, or to be more correct, 5 PT100 sensors wired in parallel) require different signal amplification maybe a 500K trimmer could be added instead of R28.

All in all, both sensors work perfectly now, Ktype and PTC on Hakko iron.

What could be noted is that I'm using only half of the ADC swing (2.5-5V) as values below 2.5V are below room temp, most of the region we are interested in is between 4V and 5V. In order to be able to use DC power also I can't add a negative 2.5V to the signal in order to pull it down and stretch it so that the interesting temperature region spreads trough most of the ADC range, but taking into account precision required for soldering and that we have a sensor in heater and not tip, it really makes no real difference...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 22, 2011, 12:31:55 pm
More graphs. Here's the graph with (finally) real temperatures.

Note that red line is the temperature of the tip measured with NTC. Since the 320C is the absolute max of the NTC (it is accurate up to 270C) you can notice the clipping on 400000ms and around 500000ms (the flat tips).

As you can imagine, the heater was 100% on, then fully off, then on, then off, on, off and then it cooled to room temperature (I turned logging off bit before room temp but irrelevant).

Important facts from the graph
1. heater is always hotter then tip (yeah right :D )
2. heater heats up faster then tip (as you can see the heating curves for the heater are steeper then for the tip). This is caused by the heat transfer delay between heater and the tip.
3. heater and tip cool at the roughly the same pace (the cooling curves are almost identical)
4. peaks are very interesting, the second and third peaks don't show much as the tip temperature is clipped but first peak show both delay and temperature difference between the tip and the heater.

Way more informations will be available when I run the same setup only with PID control and not manual on/off so that we can see how fast the tip will catch up to the heater and how tip temperature drops when the soldering is involved :)

One not so obvious thing that can be seen on the graph is, if you look at the end of cooling period between second and third heating cycle you see on the TIP chard that it cooled "faster" then usual, then started to heat up and then it started cooling again. I will upload also the zoom of this region so it can be more obvious. What happened here is that during cooling period (no power on heater) I pushed the dump sponge on to the tip of the iron, as you can see it started to cool rapidly, and no noticeable effect on the heater temperature can be seen. Then, when I removed the sponge, even without any power, tip starts to heat up because heater is still way hotter then the tip and then as they go into equilibrium they continue to cool together until I initiate the heating process again.

I'm off now to try to assemble the firmware again so that I can have both pid and serial output and NTC in the same firmware but I am afraid that it will not be possible since the flash in 16F690 is very tight :(
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 23, 2011, 08:21:40 am
[rambling]
I can't push everything I want into 4k without moving to assembler or exchanging 16x2 to 7seg's ... and I don't want to do either so I will now move immediately to GEN3 and 18F ... I spent some time deciding what 18F to go with and I just decided that I do not need more pins, this as is works great, and I have already 2 extra buttons, one could be used for sleep and other for foot pedal. So attm I'm in lookout for 18F with 20-28 pins. I know Ian wants USB but I really have no need for usb on my soldering iron. Serial port that I can access via bus pirate is more then enough. On the other hand, 18F2550 is right size, 32k, and I have one in my drawer... it has usb so if Ian likes he can add usb support to the firmware. My first choice was actually 18F2685, same 28pin package but 96k .. 3 times what 18F2550 has ... donno .. as I have 2550 already in my drawer I'll start writing GEN3 firmware for 18F2550 but if I get short with flash, I'll switch to 18F2685
[/rambling]
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 23, 2011, 09:32:50 am
Here's the 18F2550 version of the schematic I'm writing firmware for ...

The only untested path is the DC heater driver (page 3, driving fet trough opto). I don't have any fet's lying around and I don't anyhow plan to drive the iron with DC but if someone can check out the page 3, I think it is solid, the npn opto is driving fet, zener is keeping the gate voltage at 10V (since the DC input will probably be 20V or more)  ...

Actually I haven't tested the lcd backlight brightness circuit also but don't see what could go wrong with a general purpose npn :)

Everything else is tested
 - moc + triac works
 - dcdc works
 - thermocouple signal conditioning works (tested with Solomon HQ30 soldering iron)
 - PTC signal conditioning works (tested with HAKKO and QUICK soldering irons)
 - NTC signal conditioning works (tested with 204GT 200k NTC embedded in HAKKO tip)
 
If anyone has comments - you know where to find me :D
I will start working on firmware now. Hopefully 32k is enough for what I want. I will be making pcb only after I finish firmware (as if 32k is not enough I will be moving to 18F2685 and that is bit different pinout so pcb would have to be redone)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: magius on November 23, 2011, 11:35:00 am
Thnks for the design!

If it helps, i'm tryng to mount it for Hakko pencil using a 18F2550. I'm compiling with Pinguino (a platform similar to Arduino but less mature). It's useful because supports 18F2550 (28 pins), 18F4550 (40 pins) and a 32bit PIC. With this MPUs you can cover from small to large projects.

One idea: the 18F2550 has 2 op.amp. inside, could be possible to save one op.amp. (and to save space) using the internal one (but it needs 3 pins of the 18F)...I'll try soon, when I have a bit of time.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 23, 2011, 11:40:52 am
I need pins on the mcu. And iirc 2550 only has comparators not op-amps. Also this all already works on my table only with 16F690 .. I just need bit more space in flash for lcd messages :D debug info etc etc .. so that's I moved up to 18f2550 .. without debug info and with only temp display the 16F690 works like a charm.

Also all 4 op-amps are in the same package (mcp619 is a quad op-amp) so no need to save any :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 23, 2011, 01:17:36 pm
Forgot to add, yes the GEN3 with 18F is still single iron driver, not a dual one. For dual driver pic with more pins is required (for e.g. 18F4550) and bigger PCB, and since I purchased a PACE ST-50E with TD-100 iron for myself I really don't need more drivers on the table :D. When PACE arrives I'll try to integrate driver for TD-100 into SID GEN4 :D but I can't guarantee too much work on that area as TD-100 is too expensive to break and I'm not sure how interesting would it be for hobbyists since you can get 10 hakko pencils for a single pace pencil.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 24, 2011, 11:50:14 am
Few final tweaks (added oscillator, replaced gain for PTC resistor with a pot ..)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on November 24, 2011, 06:05:52 pm
you better build a final version soon, I ordered a Weller PES51 soldering pencil with a k type sensor that screams for a SID :D
BTW the original WES51 soldering station costs 100+$ and it is analog and doesn't even come close to the specs the SID can/does/will have
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 24, 2011, 10:57:46 pm
Feel free to start routing the board :D, I suck in routing big time (autorouter is my best friend) ... I started doing this all in smd and before I got it 10% done I had to stop .. You shown you route boards very very nice. I like smd (everything but pic and moc, those I like in trough hole) but I can live with a whole trough hole board too ..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on November 25, 2011, 08:00:08 am
Looking great! I get stuck in coding hell for 3 days and when I come back you've done this ;)

I don't mean to impact your chip choice :) My idea for USB is two fold. Mostly so that DIYers can update if they don't have a programmer (obviously not a problem for you or I). The other is to make a simple java app (or, etc) that captures the performance data like you have been doing over serial for debugging, diagnostics, and general geekery :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 25, 2011, 09:53:32 am
I don't mind adding USB as I already have 18F2550 (and I like that small chip) and it already has USB so not a big deal. The 32k shown to be enough for the firmware so no need to move up from there ... it has enough pins for everything I wanted ... so it is a good solution. The extra 2 pins that usb use I would not use anyhow ... and I decided not to go with dual iron driver since most users would not use the second output anyhow and I personally don't need it since a new soldering iron (PACE ST-50E + TD-100) is on its way to take space on my workbench :D and I already have gen2 working perfectly with Solomon and this one will drive hakko so I'm set for the workshop (In the rented appt that is my workshop I will have a hakko and a solomon driven with SID, and @home I will have hakko clone rework station + pace + some zd915 solder sucker).

The major tasks at this point are:
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on November 25, 2011, 10:32:10 am
Do you think we can salvage the work on the 18F2550 version Filip made and just replace the analog parts? I think it is important (and see the utility) in having an all through-hole open source soldering station. I personally want to make a killer SMD version though, but will resist until a PTH version is tested first :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 25, 2011, 10:59:07 am
[quote author="ian"]Do you think we can salvage the work on the 18F2550 version Filip made and just replace the analog parts? I think it is important (and see the utility) in having an all through-hole open source soldering station. I personally want to make a killer SMD version though, but will resist until a PTH version is tested first :)[/quote]

:D I tested it pretty thoroughly with a lot of different irons :D so now the software is the part to test ... as I said I have no issues with PTH, the only issue is - can it fit on 10x10cm

As for the board filip made already, if the DC output (opto and fet) is removed the major difference is that there's 2 inputs for sensors and a few pin bigger op-amp (quad op amp instead of dual one) ... most of the other stuff is pretty much the same, but his pcb was pretty tight and eagle does not really have some fancy routing utilities like for e.g. Altium has so that you can push/pull the routes and keep them in while adding new parts .. He could surely use big chunk of the board he already made but also there's a big chunk he'd have to redo.

Another simplification can be made by removing the DC output optocoupler, diode and resistor and driving some logic level fet (IRL*) directly from pic. I'm not big fan of that solution but I know I will never be using SID on AC so I don't have any issues on how the DC part works (I will not be populating the opto and fet on my board anyhow, but I do believe the pcb should have the DC path too for those who like to drive the iron from some dc sources) ...

The pins on the pic could be rewired a bit ..
 - I drive LCD "pin by pin" in C18 so I have no problem moving the lcd pins around ..
 - B1, B2 could be moved
 - LCD_BRIGHTNESS and HEATERCONTROLL could be swapped, not problem there but those 2 has to be on those 2 pins (ccp)
 - USB_VCC can come via diode to PGC or PGD, I don't see any other solution really (we are bit short on pins)
 - NTC and TEMP sensors has to be on AN0 and AN1 for many reasons so those I'd really not move
 - OSC1/OSC2 - I never managed to get 2550 to work on usb without crystal so I'd say those are fixed too
 - E1,E2,EB - no movement I hate to drive encoder any different way but trough interrupt
 - TX, RX - no movement (I actually only need TX, as my firmware only sends the data via uart, it does not read uart at all but maybe a serial bootloader can be used to save flash if required hence tx is needed too)

So LCD_D4-7, LCD_E,RS, B1, B2 can exchange places, everything else is more less fixed.

Now Filip can say what would help him so I can see if there's a way to do that too but .. from where I stand attm, that's it... He does the pcb routing very nice so it would be cool if he can route it ... I just don't think he can fill all this on 10x10 cm easily with trough hole elements..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 25, 2011, 11:07:04 am
btw, wrt testing, since testing is done by ppl who know what they are doing, and imo soldering smd's is faster I think it might be better to make a smd version first (with bunch of exposed test points!) and then when everything works we make a single sided trough hole pcb (that does not even have to be 10x10, as most hobbyists will be using 100x160 eurocard boards anyhow as that's the default size you purchase in most electronics shops if you purchase pcb with photosensitive layer on or a precut single vitroplast/pertinax boards) ...

So mine idea is that it might be better to make a smd version first (that has to fit in some cheap seeed/itead manufacturing sizes) and if it works properly then we design a trough hole version that has to fit the 100x160 single sided board for a home manufacturing.

Just an idea, donno what others think about it ..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 25, 2011, 11:22:57 am
btw, if there are some PROTEUS/ARES users .. here are the source files (also attached the picture of where I am with the routing :( - as you can see, not very far, not even the placement is done)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: cang1988 on November 26, 2011, 12:37:03 pm
Hello there!
Accidentally read on to see his project of welding equipment, find it extremely interesting
I also want to make one like that, but unfortunately some parts in Vietnam do not have, so you can design it using the pic16f877 and are not using a push button. Because no children in Vietnam with the type of encoder that PIC16f690 in his project to use.
You can display the current temperature to the temperature at the lcd 20x4 is not wrong?
thank you!
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 26, 2011, 01:28:12 pm
[quote author="cang1988"]
so you can design it using the pic16f877
[/quote]

You can redesign it but in the same store that sells 16F877 you can purchase (cheaper) 16F690.

New version (GEN3) cannot work on 16F877 as 16F877 do not have USB nor have enough flash for all the functionality planned for GEN3. GEN2 source can be recompiled for 16F877 but you will have to redo the schematic and pcb.

Quote
and are not using a push button.

How can you set temperature or enter menu if there is no button nor encoder ?!

Quote
Because no children in Vietnam with the type of encoder that PIC16f690 in his project to use.

I have no clue what you wrote here. Can you try to write this in few sentences so I can try to understand the meaning.

Quote
You can display the current temperature to the temperature at the lcd 20x4 is not wrong?

Driver is designed to use 16x2 display. You can get this in China for 0.5-5$. 20x4 display is much more expensive but it will work. If you have 20x4 it should work, but only first 2 lines will be used.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: cang1988 on November 27, 2011, 06:17:54 am
I thank you much!
I sympathize, because I live in Vietnam, I used google translator to read confusing him, I sympathize.
So I wait for him to improve our products gen3 usb connection, you can design buttons were not so, however encoder handy but hard to find too
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 27, 2011, 08:23:24 am
[quote author="cang1988"]however encoder handy but hard to find too[/quote]

Encoder is read as two buttons, you can always put two buttons instead of encoder and tweak firmware to read 2 buttons instead of encoder.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 07, 2011, 03:27:39 am
And, here's the PCB ... as most of mine pcb's it's ugly as hell but should work properly :D (will know when it arrives from itead)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on December 07, 2011, 07:13:38 am
I looked for the rotary encoders with push buttons when we were in Akihibara but did not find any. They had fantastic knobs though, and I picked up a few of those because it sucks to pick them out of a catalog.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: tayken on December 07, 2011, 09:16:21 am
Damn, you should've told me! I had some from Sure Electronics with the knobs. I can give some to Sjaak on Thursday. How many do you want?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 07, 2011, 11:51:11 am
I know the drill, way better to get the knob "live" then trough catalog ...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on December 07, 2011, 07:28:47 pm
I think I said that 5 or 6 times during the video we made :) The best part was not the reels of SMD parts or loose components you get bulk on ebay for cheaper, but the stuff you need to see and handle to buy: knobs, some encoders/pots, relays, transformers, odd connectors and sockets, odd tubes, motors, etc.

I can pick some up on my next SURE order :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 07, 2011, 07:37:20 pm
That's important parts ... and for some reason manufacturers never put "usable" pics online so you can decide what you want to get ... I usually order "one of each" and then decide what to continue ordering :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: tayken on December 07, 2011, 07:47:43 pm
[quote author="ian"]I think I said that 5 or 6 times during the video we made :) The best part was not the reels of SMD parts or loose components you get bulk on ebay for cheaper, but the stuff you need to see and handle to buy: knobs, some encoders/pots, relays, transformers, odd connectors and sockets, odd tubes, motors, etc.

I can pick some up on my next SURE order :D[/quote]
Possible, I was dead tired during that day because of all the prep that went to Make. We also hit another place (a box shop with CNC) with Sjaak but it was closed too, I guess Mondays are not a good idea for touring.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 07, 2011, 07:57:03 pm
What's special about Monday's in Japan ?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on December 07, 2011, 07:59:47 pm
Quote
I know the drill, way better to get the knob "live" then trough catalog ...

Sorry, that was a reply to arhi, not you (above comment) ;) I kept saying, wow! I actually get to touch this stuff. If only I had a project for it I could stand here for 4 hours and pick the perfect one!

Tayken did a great tour BTW, the materials are turning out great!
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on December 07, 2011, 08:01:42 pm
Quote
I usually order "one of each" and then decide what to continue ordering :D

YES!!!! That is all the crap I am putting into the traveling box that we were discussing in the other form. Years of "I'll just get one of each" became a TV-worthy part hoard :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: tayken on December 07, 2011, 08:17:22 pm
[quote author="arhi"]What's special about Monday's in Japan ?[/quote]
On weekends most shops do work and Monday is kind of a holiday in Akihabara for small shops. Even the maid cafe was empty...

BTW: Asked Sjaak to get me some VFD tubes too. Now to find an actual use for them :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 07, 2011, 08:59:34 pm
Ah that's the Akihabara only, same here on some big markets, they work on weekend but then take a break on Monday :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on December 07, 2011, 09:41:31 pm
So now we will all have the mini VFDs :D I will post a pic of them tomorrow. I wish I got more, but on the last day of a trip I always feel cheap :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sydkahn on December 09, 2011, 12:35:28 pm
i love the design - one sticking point - the weller station i have turns itself off in 99 minutes.  Would miss that...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on December 09, 2011, 12:45:04 pm
No problem. This is the iron that's software upgradable :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 09, 2011, 01:35:54 pm
[quote author="sydkahn"]i love the design - one sticking point - the weller station i have turns itself off in 99 minutes.  Would miss that...[/quote]

That is one of the reasons I designed the 18F version too. With 16F version the iron works but that's about it. No bells and whistles. With 18F I have enough flash so I can add stuff like "detecting usage and going to sleep mode if no usage for xyz min", "turn of if xyz min in sleep" etc etc ..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Sjaak on December 09, 2011, 10:43:55 pm
[quote author="ian"]
Quote
I know the drill, way better to get the knob "live" then trough catalog ...

Sorry, that was a reply to arhi, not you (above comment) ;) I kept saying, wow! I actually get to touch this stuff. If only I had a project for it I could stand here for 4 hours and pick the perfect one!

Tayken did a great tour BTW, the materials are turning out great![/quote]

Everybody likes to touch knobs ;) Or did you mean something different?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: TitanMKD on December 10, 2011, 07:36:13 pm
Woo this design is just amazing,

Questions:
1) Does AOYUE Int 968 soldering iron are compatible with it ?
2) Does you have a box/case for that amazing project ? If yes I will like to see photo with LCD, knobs ... I'm pretty sure it will be better than my AOYUE Int 968 soldering station which does not even have temperature display of the soldering iron (just a led blinking).
3) When a blank PCB will be available for testers/developers ?

Best Regards
Benjamin
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 10, 2011, 11:43:08 pm
[quote author="TitanMKD"]
1) Does AOYUE Int 968 soldering iron are compatible with it ?
[/quote]

Should be. AOYUE should be using RTD/PTC sensor so they should work.

[quote author="TitanMKD"]
2) Does you have a box/case for that amazing project ? If yes I will like to see photo with LCD, knobs ... I'm pretty sure it will be better than my AOYUE Int 968 soldering station which does not even have temperature display of the soldering iron (just a led blinking).
[/quote]

This is the old version (with buttons and without encoder), I have the box for the new one but it's not assembled yet.

(http://https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-KeOOrjIcF5M/SkVd6hXA3OI/AAAAAAAAFPI/LiXJEE0kXOA/s400/p6270013.jpg) (http://https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/S0xGAgtcoQyesrd79HVmBtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink)

[quote author="TitanMKD"]
3) When a blank PCB will be available for testers/developers ?
[/quote]

gerber files are attached along with schematic file so you can make pcb today if you want to. I will not be supplying pcb's myself (I will get 8 from ITead in few days and all 8 are already spoken for), but DP want to make trough hole version of the board that they will probably sell but when/if it will happen it is not up to me.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 11, 2011, 12:07:09 am
Here is the box I use for solomon and the one I prepared for hakko
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on December 11, 2011, 11:44:54 am
You can get our V1 PCB now, but it only nominally supports one of the iron types, the other should work ok.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on December 14, 2011, 12:17:30 pm
I have an idea on how to port this to a Laptop supply... everything remains the same except the heater driver. Here we use a buck/boost converter that will be controlled directly by 3 PIC pins. 2 to drive mosfets and one for feedback. Since it is a heater the stability doesn't need to be perfect.
I tested a simple PWM 30V dc driving the irons Solomon, and Weller and no magnetization was noticed form the tips.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 14, 2011, 12:44:25 pm
If you already have a fet, what's the point of heating the insides of the driver with a buck ? you just drive the fet with pwm and it will work ?! What's the point of wasting 3 pic pins when one will work just as well
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on December 14, 2011, 04:40:49 pm
well lap top PSU are 19V, ant that's only 30W for a 24V 50W pencil, a Boost converter is needed. Also 24VAC gives ?30V dc when rectified.. in which case a buck converter is needed. thus we uses a Bust/buck to drive it an all the problems are solved... since this is intended for a future version, in which a larger pic will be used 3 pins wont be an issue
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 14, 2011, 06:15:54 pm
interesting ... but 24vdc switchers are available very cheap ... you need to push 2A into heater so you will need a 4A rated coil ... those are big, expensive and not easy to source. Compared to that 4A 24VDC switcher cost few bucks on ebay :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on December 15, 2011, 12:03:39 am
I've found some coils on mouser SMD type 6.5Amps 10uH <100mOhm... less then a buck
All of the parts together to make this buck boost shouldn't take more then 2 USD.. probably a lot closer to 1, I ll drup a schematic when I get some time....Eagle off course :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 15, 2011, 09:17:59 am
10uH will be pretty low or you plan to do switching in megahertz range ?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on December 15, 2011, 12:22:57 pm
I thought we could use one of those High-Speed PWMs on some high end dspics :D 1Mhz... actualy if I use the mc34063 calculator for a boost circuit, at 500khz with 1V swing (which is more then acceptable) Lmin is 1.7uH and Cout is ~8uF.

19 to 24, 2A output boost..

*BTW those high-speed PWM peripherals are pure awesomeness here is a data sheet
http://http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/70645C.pdf

feature list:
The High-Speed PWM module consists of the following major features:
• Up to seven PWM generators, each with an individual time base
• Two PWM outputs per PWM generator
• Individual period and duty cycle for each PWM output
• Duty cycle, dead time, phase shift and frequency resolution equal to the system clock source (TOSC)
• Independent fault and current-limit inputs for up to 14 PWM outputs
• Redundant Output mode
• Independent Output mode (this feature is not available on all devices)
• Push-Pull Output mode
• Complementary Output mode
• Center-Aligned PWM mode
• Output override control
• Special Event Trigger
• PWM capture feature
• Prescaler for input clock
• ADC triggering with PWM
• Independent PWM frequency, duty cycle and phase shift changes
• Leading-Edge Blanking (LEB) functionality
• Dead time compensation
• Output clock chopping
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on December 15, 2011, 12:39:30 pm
here is the theory of operation with two fets and 2 diodes.
http://www.eetimes.com/design/automotiv ... lectronics (http://www.eetimes.com/design/automotive-design/4011429/Buck-boost-converters-handle-cold-cranking-in-automotive-electronics)
*ps there is page to as well...it shows current flow charts..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 15, 2011, 01:10:32 pm
Yes if you go with high frequency the 10uH will work ... might not be the bad idea after all ... you need to test it in real life :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on December 15, 2011, 05:57:28 pm
jup I am waiting on some boards to arrive, they are intended to run 3 pin computer fans, and they are buck only, but It should give us a good ideo on how this might work, also I'll probably make a single layer DIY SMD board just to test out the Buck Bust circuit.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 19, 2011, 12:59:39 am
PACE ST-50E finally arrived with TD-100 hand peace.

(http://http://www.renex.info/big/PC80070514.jpg)

When pcb's for new SID arrive from ITead I will finally be able to compare SID with a professional driver :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 19, 2011, 02:37:11 am
Some "interesting" observations of this PACE station


There are other nice things like holder sensor (That I do not have as you get that separately) where your iron holder sends signal (probably just a switch) when you put iron on the holder so it immediately goes into set back (or after xyz seconds/minutes) and immediately start heating up when you lift it .. the "offset" button (no idea what it actually does yet :D ) etc etc .. yes there's also a password protection and you can set min and max set temperatures etc etc ... the holder is great, the hand peace is great, the cable is solder proof :D ... You can "live" change tips. There's a piece of "rubber" that I got that you use to take out the hot tip and push a new one in so you do not need to wait for your tip to cool of before you change it... time to get from 24C to 300C is incredible .. it's like 15seconds .. I'm still confused .. but that's all another story .. most features I'm interested implementing are in the top part of this post :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 20, 2011, 02:59:08 am
[quote author="arakis"]well lap top PSU are 19V, ant that's only 30W for a 24V 50W pencil, a Boost converter is needed. Also 24VAC gives ?30V dc when rectified.. in which case a buck converter is needed. thus we uses a Bust/buck to drive it an all the problems are solved... since this is intended for a future version, in which a larger pic will be used 3 pins wont be an issue[/quote]

Thinking a bit about this ... if you make a buck/bust switcher to power the iron you can actually use the same circuit to drive the darn thing. Instead of making a 30VDC source and then allow PID to switch it, you can merge the heater control with the voltage generation circuit so you can push 0-30VDC into heater ... might work as you don't care too much about how "clean" the output voltage is..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on December 20, 2011, 07:38:06 am
thats the idea :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on December 20, 2011, 10:24:09 pm
Hi arhi, can i have the eagle files of sid v3?, or the BOM v3?. Thanks
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 21, 2011, 03:48:50 am
[quote author="ginpb"]Hi arhi, can i have the eagle files of sid v3?, or the BOM v3?. Thanks[/quote]

I do not use Eagle.
I can provide you with PROTEUS ISIS/ARES files (pcb and schematic, great but non free windows only app)
CAM files for pcb production (excellon/gerber and drill file) are already attached to the message.

I really suggest noone invest time in building the thing until it's proven to work (I ordered some pcb's and when they arrive - I expect them every day - I will test it with 3 different hand pieces, I will publish then results and final schematic). I will never make the schematic in Eagle but DP is making their own version of the driver based on my design that they are drawing in the Eagle (and Arakis will attempt to make a single layer pcb for it too with all trough hole parts). Anyhow wrt schematic alone it should be less then 30 minutes to draw this in Eagle (last time I redrawn it from scratch in KiCad it took me ~15minutes and I'm not proficient with kicad).
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 28, 2011, 06:48:30 am
PCB's arrived :D :D :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: tayken on December 28, 2011, 07:14:21 am
[quote author="arhi"]PCB's arrived :D :D :D[/quote]
You have a soldering iron to solder those soldering iron PCBs, right? :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 28, 2011, 05:34:21 pm
:D

This is a great test for this new PACE ... and to be honest, it does not behave as expected!! I'll post about it tonight/tomorrow
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 28, 2011, 09:08:38 pm
And as promised, here's a review of the PACE ST50E soldering station (http://http://elco.crsndoo.com/wordpress/2011/12/pace-st-50-review/) (available both in English and Serbian - just click on the small flag).
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 28, 2011, 11:54:18 pm
As I finished soldering, I started testing the PCB. I chose to first test DCDC converter, mostly because if it does not work nothing else with, but also because it gave me so much grief when I was designing it for the first time. I didn't care much about efficiency but tested how far it can go. I used some el cheapo resistor like inductor for L2 (1uH, this small ones can handle 1A so no problem here) but for L1 I used 09P331K50 (datasheet (http://http://kelco.rs/katalog/images/09P.pdf) states 330uH, 1R, 500mA).

I used OverLoad v1.1 (http://http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=29_31&products_id=421) from ITead to test how much the dcdc will safely handle but - OverLoad died on me :(. Not a good start. I see that both 5v and 3v output is shorted to the ground so I'll check ldo's there and see what else might be wrong. I had some issues with this OverLoad from day one, it's interesting device but looks like it had some bad solder joint or something and now it's dead. Then I used older OverLoad's older brother Sample C8051 Electronic Dummy Load (http://http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=29_31&products_id=301) to get the testing done. The C8051 dummy load worked (but shown same symptoms as older brother, losing the contrast, garbage on screen etc.. and all that you solve by applying some pressyre on the screen - so I assume it's something to do with bad solder joints here too).

I measured the temperature of the inductor with the contactless 650-12D IR thermometer assuming emmisivity of 0.9 (middle value for rubber and for ptfe and since inductor is sealed in heatshrink that seamed like a good value), and of course with finger :)

Anyhow, the results are as followed, with this configuration
0-300mA everything is at room temperature (after 20min)
300-400mA LM2574-05 heats up a bit (~35-40C) and L1 goes up to 31-32C (ambient temp in my corner was 28C while measuring, all temp's after 20min of working)
400mA-500mA L1 starts to heat up but not fast, on the other hand LM2574-05 start to heat up fast (over 50C) hence I shutdown test after 3 minutes (when LM heated up)

So I'd say 400mA is safe, you can have bursts into 500mA if you really need them ... I measured the current used by my circuit with some el cheapo lcd with backlight and it was maxing at 250mA hence I assume everything is going to be cool and DCDC design is a success :)

Now moving forward to test other stuff

EDIT: and this test also shown what's going to be my next project after this SID is finished - a "proper" electronic load, with efficiency measurements (current & voltage in and out) in a proper box ... a proper benchtop device :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 29, 2011, 06:43:31 am
So far, everything works. Firmware is not done yet so I have not tested that but everything else seems to be working and PCB seems to be in order.

Few things I could done better

1. Another GND point I could clip to while testing stuff :D. There is a +5V and Vss connector on board but I use that one for the front led on the power switch. It could be good to have 2-3 more gnd mount points there (there's room for at least one).

2. C21- here I like to put low esr aluminium capacitor, and the ones I have are slightly larger then rest of the caps.. When mounting LM on a "stand" then the bigger cap can't sit properly (it's tilted a bit). So moving C21 few mils towards the edge would be cool.

3. RV2, 500k multiturn is locally hard to find, also even with multiturn you don't get real precision on that high resistance span, so it would be better to have another resistor in series so you can for e.g. use 220k resistor + 100k multiturn

4. four diodes on the input (D3-D6), there are gretc modules with 4 pins only, I should use those next time. Problem is the footprint, I have 10 different gretz devices in my drawer at the moment each with different footprint..

5. J6 is a debugging (uart) output so it's not a biggi that there's no gnd there, but in next revision, there should be a third pin for a ground, also no need for j6 to be 5mm pitch connector, 0.1" is more then ok

6. Silk Screen - mark pin1 for the LCD connector, mark pin1 for the ICSP connector
Here are the pictures of the populated board. Actually the DC driver is not populated as I'm not very interested in it and there's no usb connector and D10, R40 as those are also only required for USB operation and I ain't going to be using USB not even for bootloader, all debugging I'll do trough serial and programming trough ICSP connector on board. The PIC18F2550 is not in the "stand" because I was still testing how analog side of things worked (works perfectly). Now I'll go write some firmware to get this puppy running :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 30, 2011, 05:23:35 am
Ok, here comes the bug no1 .. C9 and C10 instead of creating a filter they actually create some oscillations and the whole thing don't work (I don't get it as it worked ok on breadboard) ... probably values should be tweaked a bit or higher esr value for C10 should be used (I used ceramic 1uF, maybe going with aluminium one would solve the problem) ... anyhow, analog part works when C9 and C10 are just not mounted so the pcb is still very usable :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on December 30, 2011, 03:02:21 pm
nice, i can't wait to receive my DP iron driver.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 30, 2011, 03:45:15 pm
pm me your address
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: bearmos on December 30, 2011, 03:52:44 pm
ahri, any idea what the BOM cost is for single quantity?  it may have been mentioned previously, but i couldn't find it after a quick look.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 30, 2011, 03:54:24 pm
Short testing glitch .. I broke off the ntc that was sitting nicely in the tip, now I replaced it but I'm not getting nice readings :( .. need to rethink that again, I'm not getting good contact between tip and ntc.

Another thing I wish I did differently, the old concept with 74hc14 worked million times better then the concept I copied from Ian & Filip :( .. resistors and capacitors just don't cut it .. proper schmidt works 100000 times better ... Next time if I ever decide to make a new schematic I'd go with 74HC74 and with just inc and dec outputs directly from it so that I don't have to decode encoder in software at all .. it's even better solution.. The resistors and capacitors are not too bad but they are skipping steps .. I really hate that..

Anyhow, need to rethink the NTC mounting inside the tip .. other then that .. it freaking works :D .. now to implement menus so that you can change PID values etc etc .. but all in all it works, it sends data to serial port .. sweet ..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 30, 2011, 03:57:18 pm
[quote author="bearmos"]ahri, any idea what the BOM cost is for single quantity? [/quote]

No idea. Should be very cheap, apart from resistors and capacitors that are "free" you need
18F2550 (no idea how much it is)
DCDC converter - locally is about 10$, no idea how much it really cost
moc or any similar opto with triac output - 1-2$
triac - 1-2$
mcp619 - few bucks ..
some connectors, lcd ..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 30, 2011, 04:04:48 pm
first graph out of new sid :D (the pid is not tuned at all, P=0.9, I=0.9, D=0.9)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on December 30, 2011, 04:18:03 pm
Sorry the pic button setup it not working. Other results are looking good though? Did you just use it without the problematic caps?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: bearmos on December 30, 2011, 04:35:53 pm
thanks for the BOM, ahri - when i get fed up with my old wellers i'll probably be taking a look at building a couple of these.

[quote author="arhi"]Another thing I wish I did differently, the old concept with 74hc14 worked million times better then the concept I copied from Ian & Filip :( .. resistors and capacitors just don't cut it[/quote]
It looks like there are a few schmitt triggers sprinkled throughout the 18f2550 as well, you might be able to make use of these directly on a future rev - didn't look to see what peripherals you'd loose though.

[quote author="arhi"]
Anyhow, need to rethink the NTC mounting inside the tip ...[/quote]
have you already tried filling the hole with thermal grease, then cramming in the thermistor?  If you can get the grease in there with a small syringe, this should provide fairly decent heat transfer.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 30, 2011, 09:13:15 pm
[quote author="ian"]Sorry the pic button setup it not working. Other results are looking good though? Did you just use it without the problematic caps?[/quote]

The only change from the schematic is that I removed C9 and C10. They create some nasty oscillation instead of a filter.. as I mentioned not sure why, it is a standard salen key filter should worked .. was working on the breadboard (the only difference is that on breadboard I used 1uF aluminium and on pcb I soldered in the ceramic 1u .. maybe that is part of it donno), anyhow, those 2 cap's create filter, without them everything works but is not filtered. I'd leave them on board anyhow, the question is just to find the proper values. Good thing is that there is no noise at all reading the RTD so the filter is not required (everything works perfectly without filter).

Wrt buttons, I have no idea why I switched from schmidts to the RC idea you and Filip came with, ic was easier to solder, easier to route .. it's not a big problem, just annoyance, in the less part numbers and smaller soldering time and easier routing I could used 2 flipflops in 74HC74 to get impulse for one and other side and just read that as + and - buttons, way easier on the firmware, easier for the end user (it's simple to replace encoder with 2 buttons) .. but .. water under the bridge .. This works, I will not be making new version of schematic nor the boards from what I see now (NOT SURE YET!! NOT FULLY TESTED YET), but I can give Filip a hand when he start working on DP's DC version so he can avoid these few bugs I have..

I did came up with some calibration procedure :)

1. calibrate 1mA trough RTD
instead of sensor, just push your ampermeter in the PTC slots of the board, turn the board on and set CAL1 pot so that you can see 1mA going trough ampermeter.

2. calibrate PTC amplifier gain (to =30)
instead of sensor, attach a 100R 1% (or better) resistor to the PTC connector
remove jumper from JP1
measure voltage on the top pin and turn RV2 until you get 3.00V exactly
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 30, 2011, 09:23:02 pm
[quote author="bearmos"]thanks for the BOM, ahri - when i get fed up with my old wellers i'll probably be taking a look at building a couple of these.
[/quote]

if you have Weller with magnet in the tip, I don't think you will ever decide to change it. I never see any iron work better, not eve an super ultra expensive ones. They do not have as much tips as other hand pieces have, but man, that tip holds its temp better then ANYTHING else. Way better then this 500$ worth PACE..


[quote author="bearmos"]It looks like there are a few schmitt triggers sprinkled throughout the 18f2550 as well, you might be able to make use of these directly on a future rev - didn't look to see what peripherals you'd loose though.[/quote]
The imputs I use for encoder are ST's but I have ugly experience with ST inputs on PIC and dirty encoders.. so I always add external debouncing circuit ... it's just that this RC circuit I copied is doing more harm then good so I'll just probably remove the caps from it and see if it will work better (should).

[quote author="bearmos"]
have you already tried filling the hole with thermal grease, then cramming in the thermistor?  If you can get the grease in there with a small syringe, this should provide fairly decent heat transfer.[/quote]

First time around (before I broke it) I used thermal glue (some expensive stuff you use to attach heat sink to memory chips etc where the adhesive has to have high temperature conductivity), but that stuff is nasty.. 2 components, smells up the whole room (and I ain't taking it outside as it's below 0) .. takes a day to harden .. so this time around I used fire cement, but looks like either I didn't clean the hole properly or fire cement didn't dry (it has a pretty high temp conductivity, I use it with aluminium heaters for repraps for years)... will retry the procedure again with that thermal glue, problem is every time I change something I destroy one PTC and I use some rather expensive ones...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on December 30, 2011, 10:18:00 pm
Thanks for the followup. At this point it is clear you are 5to10 steps ahad of us, so we wont rush into another until you,re happy with the design :D the world is aching for open source tool though.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 30, 2011, 10:30:09 pm
I just glued another NTC in the tip so I'd probably finish all the major testing tomorrow. If all goes well the hw test will be done by end of day tomorrow and initial firmware will be available (code is attm very ugly but it's a start for anyone who want to work on it) ... I will be uploading it as I go (I use local svn server for all my projects so I will upload only exports as a they come) ... also some documentation .. Anyhow, so far so good, I have not found any serious flaws so far.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 31, 2011, 12:25:35 am
btw the circuit with 74HCT74 that should be used after encoder is attached :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 31, 2011, 04:55:00 am
Glue dried and problem is solved :D

Looks like hw works great. When Filip returns from vacation he'll get one board to test usb, dc and other stuff if they interest him and also he can test the thermocouple driver as I borrowed my only TC handle (with old driver) to my brother as his soldering iron died. Anyhow ... now is up to software, calibrate software side of things, compensate for difference between heater and tip, add menus so user can change stuff ...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 31, 2011, 05:06:05 am
and if anyone like to see how the testing "gear" looks like ... here's the pic...

You see a black box (made by me :D) with transformer that gives 24VAC 4A + 6VAC 1A (not used with new gen), with lcd, button, power switch, encoder ... adapter from "clone" to "original hakko" cable (the red one), some Italian pid temperature controller with K-type input to compare real time with output of the NTC... There's the hakko original handpiece on the table with some old tip that I drilled in a glued (with thermal glue) NTC and K-type thermocouple in the 3mm hole I drilled in the base of the tip...  there's a FOCA board connected to computer (usb) and to SID's serial port (TX from sid only) .. and of course a pcb linked to all that :)

On the right monitor you can see the output from the serial console..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 31, 2011, 06:53:57 am
Here's some data for those who already got the pcb and want to tinker with it :)

What's in archive:
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sqkybeaver on December 31, 2011, 08:01:37 am
is that for the version that was in the free pcb drawrer?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on December 31, 2011, 08:27:04 am
Quote
is that for the version that was in the free pcb drawrer?

No, this is Arhi's latest update. The one in the PCB drawer is our version of his first board.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sqkybeaver on December 31, 2011, 08:29:39 am
No, this is Arhi's latest update. The one in the PCB drawer is our version of his first board.[/quote]

thanks, curious how the various boards turn out, both a friend and myself ordered a driver from the pcb drawer. may have t write firmware no prob.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on December 31, 2011, 02:34:14 pm
arhi, i sent a Pm to you with my address
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 31, 2011, 06:15:01 pm
I use a lot of #define's in the hardware.h so you should be able to tweak it to work with the pcb from the drawer. Note only that DP's board is based on old design so works only with TC sensor (solomon) and not with PTC/RTD sensors (hakko)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on December 31, 2011, 06:16:50 pm
[quote author="ginpb"]arhi, i sent a Pm to you with my address[/quote]

ok. I'll send you the board after the holidays (holidays here just started so nothing works pre 9th as xmass is on 7th).
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on December 31, 2011, 07:22:49 pm
no problem, I just want to be sure you received my pm.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on January 01, 2012, 11:22:41 am
I was curious about transformer sources. I googled soldering iron transformer and found a diy soldering iron descripton with ransformer recomendations. The part numbers were outdated, but i looked at farnell for 50VA transformer with 24 volt secondary windings as recomended.

Ive never dealt with trnasformers or ac in a practicle application before...

I found for example this transformer With 2 115 windings and 2 12 windings, rated 50va and 2 amps.
http://export.farnell.com/pro-power/ctf ... dp/1780857 (http://export.farnell.com/pro-power/ctfc50-12/transformer-50va-2x-12v/dp/1780857)

I have a few questions for anyone that knows.

 1. Can the windings be ganged together? For example canthe 12volt windings be joined for 24v out? Can the 115 windings be joined for 240v input in eu, and oly one used for 120 in the us and canada?

2. What kind of amp rating should i be looking at for a 40watt iron plus the sid electronics?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on January 01, 2012, 11:45:26 am
Outputs can be combined. I thought so
http://www.ehow.com/how_7967510_combine ... ormer.html (http://www.ehow.com/how_7967510_combine-output-dual-output-transformer.html)

Edit primaries too
http://sound.westhost.com/xfmr2.htm#s81 (http://sound.westhost.com/xfmr2.htm#s81)

I tought this was the case and it seemed logical given the transformers available.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on January 01, 2012, 12:08:08 pm
Lost my reply :(

50watts seems to be the biggest iron ive seen so 24v would be 2 amps or so.
Another 500ma or so for the electronics.

3 to 4 amps to be safe? Sounds like a 50va might not do it (2 amps). That would be 75 or 100va, but transformers that size get more expensive and really heavy fast. The best selection im seeing is among 50va transformers.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 01, 2012, 12:56:35 pm
You need transformer to output

Add these two figures together and you need in worse case 58 W and in best case 50 W transformer. Since the wattage of transformer is defined by the size of the core, and taking into account that cores go for 50/60Hz as 50W and then 80W with no step in between (it actually goes as 50 W 0.63 kg "normal", 50 W 0.64 kg TALL - tall one is 40% smaller diameter but 50% higher then regular 50 W and then 80 W 0.85 kg, price of the normal and tall 50 W is same, 80 W is 14-15% more expensive then 50 W one).

I personally use 50 W transformers because
 - I measured the electronics+lcd to use less then 1W
 - I use HAKKO soldering iron that is 48W
 - The time heater is on is, actually, very short. Every transformer can give 10-20% more power in short bursts especially when it's off all other times as at 20% more power it'll heat bit faster, but taking 70 W from my 50 W transformer in 10% pwm (sub hertz frequency) it does not raise temp of the transformer over 30C and 60C is more then normal working temperature for these.. so even with 55W iron I'd go with a 50W transformer.

The safest is of course 80W transformer, but it's really an overkill :)

Now, you need voltage on the transformer :D and this really depends on your heater. All HAKKO/BAKKU/QUICK/GORDAK/ATTEN/AOYUE... heaters are 24 VAC, SOLOMON SL and HQ are also 24 VAC, Weller PES51 is, guess, 24 VAC ... 99% of the hand pieces you can order are 24 VAC. This shows that effective resistance of the heater is 2 ohm :)...

If your transformer provides below 24 VAC you will not be able to push enough power into heater so it will heat up slower... Depending on how much lower the voltage is it could become unusable but I tested HAKKO hand piece with 12 VDC and 12 VAC without problems it worked like a charm... yes it takes lot more time to heat up but it works (also takes bit higher temp settings to do trough hole parts then with 24 VAC as it can't pump enough power into it - but again, it is usable), I tried it with 9V but was unable to do PTH with it.

If you transformer on the other hand provides more then 24 VAC then you could limit the power with pwm but it would have to be done differently then what I'm doing it on SID. If the voltage is slightly more then 24 VAC (for e.g. 30 VAC) it would be ok but anything more would just shorten the life of the heater significantly, if you have larger voltage then this you'd have to do the zero crossing detection on the pic and adjust the sine length going into heater (like light dimmer's for e.g.)... It's not a huge modification but since 99.9% of all scrapped transformers are 12 VAC or 24 VAC I just didn't care enough for the 0.1% of the other ones :)

So basically if you have 24 VAC 2A or 24 VAC 50 VA transformer it will be enough to run SID + HAKKO soldering iron.

here (http://http://trafco.rs/cenovnik-en.php) is where I order my transformers (medium price for EUR is 104.64din and for US$ is 80.87din - so the 50 VA transformer cost me locally ~20eur or if I go with 80 VA it's ~22eur) .. they make nice transformers with thermal fuse inside... they even do a blind coil (for another few eur per transformer)... I have few other local sources that are even cheaper sometimes but these guy's I work with for years so ..

Now as for the 110 vs 230 for input, it's just the primar, it's simple you have a 230V input that's tapped in the middle for the 110 so you select if you want to use whole primar for 230 or half of it for 110 .. very simple, just that lot of companies don't do that as for 110 they use less wire so it's bit cheaper so they make separate transformers for 110 and 220...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 01, 2012, 01:01:07 pm
[quote author="ian"]3 to 4 amps to be safe? Sounds like a 50va might not do it (2 amps). [/quote]

as I wrote, 50 VA should get the job done as they can deliver 50 VA for 24/7, few more VA they can give for short time without any problems.. and your heater is never on for longer then few seconds after the iron heats up, and even at the beginning, it's on for less then a minute .. so no worries there :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: blarson on January 01, 2012, 06:32:30 pm
[quote author="ian"]Can the 115 windings be joined for 240v input in eu, and oly one used for 120 in the us and canada?
[/quote]

If you only use one primary, you should half the power rating.  Put the primaries in parrallel (watch the polarity) for full output.
Dual primary transformers are designed to be used in series or parrallel.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 02, 2012, 06:10:42 am
Here's a new firmware (still very very limited) but allows for PID coeff's to be set run time so that you can start tweaking them. It stores the initial values in the EEPROM (PID, start, sleep and boost temperature), and so far the PID values are only one that you change run time so they are stored also to eeprom after you change them, I'll add other stuff to menus later but first I want to work bit more with PID and with calibration.. as that's way more important then other stuff :D

One more thing - this version is switched to "extended instruction set"
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on January 02, 2012, 09:07:52 am
Is it the math that uses the extended instructions? I flipped through the code and couldn't find anything else that I thought needed it.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 02, 2012, 09:17:46 am
Nothing really needs it, the extended instructions just allow for better packaging of the C code (as they allow relative addressing). The project will compile (and work) if you turn off extended mode in compiler and in configuration. It's not "important" to the project, it could be turned off easily. Why? Is there a reason extended instruction set is doing something wrong? Any issues with new usb stack/bootloader and extended set?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on January 02, 2012, 09:48:00 am
The expired free compiler disables extended instructions (used to, maybe not now?). Also, because of that limit I had to port the diolan bootloader to work without extended instructions. If the bootloader is extended you can use extended firmware too, if it is not, then you cannot use extended in the firmware. That's my limitation though, if you never use a bootloader or have a recent compiler install it probably won't matter to you.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 02, 2012, 10:04:51 am
it's a simple switch :), I switched it now back to "no extended" and it works just the same :) ... so it is easy to compile them both.

I use latest MPLAB.X v1.0 and C18 (v3.40) on Linux. It all works quite nice. Now I don't remember that C18 asked me about licence (free or trial) as it used to on windows, so maybe they killed that stupid limitation.. donno.. anyhow it is recently installed (as I re-install it all every time new mplabx is out) so who knows maybe it will stop allowing extended mode at some point.

Anyhow I disabled it as if the open source bootloader is not extended then the app can't be extended (can't change config bit on the fly) ... I didn't notice any difference in code size this way or another ..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 02, 2012, 12:00:42 pm
reading hakko hand piece
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 02, 2012, 01:58:07 pm
and here's some not so good news ...

if you look at the graph (PID is not yet fully tuned, you see a lot of oscillations on the hater temp - the one SID reads) you can note that pressing the iron to the sponge and soldering 16 pin header dropped temperature of the tip significantly but that this was not at all registered by the heater sensor. Not even the slight drop :( ... Now I need to tune PID so that I can have smoother heater sensor output in order to try to recognize small variation in temperature, but it's not going to be easy... tip's just too far away from the sensor on this iron.

What I can say is that even as is at the moment it works same if not better as original driver :) (not looking at graphs but just using the iron)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: AndThen on January 02, 2012, 07:37:49 pm
The TIP signal does not center on TARGET, is this intentional? Wouldn't target +/- noise be better for fast response to initial contact?

The TIP fluctuation is 2 at the 250 setting but 2.5 at the 265 setting, and the ringing magnifies also. Just something I noticed might not be an issue  at all.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 02, 2012, 10:46:15 pm
TIP is a signal that is unknown to the device!!

I have a sensor embedded in the tip to monitor tip's temperature but the whole closed loop is without that information. The only known information I can use to do temp control is the temperature of the heater (that's what hand piece sensor is measuring). The whole problem is how to detect that tip went cold in minute changes of the heater ...

The "noise" is not actually noise, the temp actually varies that much as the PID is pretty aggressive because it helps keep the tip temperature fairly smooth. If you see the graph HAKKO made ( http://elco.crsndoo.com/wordpress/2011/12/pace-st-50/ (http://elco.crsndoo.com/wordpress/2011/12/pace-st-50/) ) you will see that when touching a PTH solder joint temp drop of the tip is normal, and when you compare HAKKO graph where they have 50C drop with mine you see that with control I made the drop is only 25C so way better; also you can notice that they spent 30sec to solder 5 joints while I managed to do 16 in only 50sec; and on top of all, I was doing it at lower temp (250C compared to 350C they used).... So I'm attm very happy with how things are moving, it's just that I believe some things that I wanted to do will not be possible, but I also noticed that expensive soldering stations also can't do that so .. we'll see. From the experience so far, the driver works better then original... taken in account the price... :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: skint69 on January 03, 2012, 03:13:13 pm
[quote author="arhi"]
So basically if you have 24 VAC 2A or 24 VAC 50 VA transformer it will be enough to run SID + HAKKO soldering iron.

 is where I order my transformers (medium price for EUR is 104.64din and for US$ is 80.87din - so the 50 VA transformer cost me locally ~20eur or if I go with 80 VA it's ~22eur) .. they make nice transformers with thermal fuse inside... they even do a blind coil (for another few eur per transformer)... I have few other local sources that are even cheaper sometimes but these guy's I work with for years so ..
[/quote]
Transformers seem expensive way to go.
How about a PC PSU instead?
They're plentiful and cheap.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 03, 2012, 03:30:06 pm
Proper transformer, custom made is 20E and it gets the work done perfectly. You can probably salvage 24VAC transformer from tons of old equipment too. Cheapest PC ATX I can get is 10EUR .. for a 10EUR difference I don't want to have a huge box on my desktop! Also you would have to make a 2 Amp DCDC converter in order to get 12V from the ATX up to 24V (as with 12V there's you don't get enough power). You can use -12V and +12V rails to generate 24V but make sure your -12V can provide 2A. If you look at the latest version of the PCB/SCH you will note that there's a DC and AC output driver there so if you want to power from 24VAC then you use a triac driver and triac but if you want to power it from 24VDC then you use optocoupler and FET. DON'T POPULATE THEM BOTH :D

Most laptop chargers are 19-20VDC so these can be used directly, with 19VDC power source you will not have 100% of your soldering heater power (you get 80%) but that's really not a big deal, it will only make startup time bit longer but you should not feel it during soldering.

Anyhow, even as the SID works with 24VDC from the ATX I don't recommend it. For 10E difference you will have a big box on the desk, it's not worth it, with a proper 20E transformer you can get the whole driver to fit in a 10x10x10cm box.

On the other hand, when sid is working and tested, DP plans to make a pure DC version that will have a DCDC converter so that can work from any DC power source (atx, laptop charger, lab supply..) that can provide enough current and that will get the voltage up to 24VDC.. so you might want to wait for that one..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 04, 2012, 09:24:38 am
PWM was not working the way I liked it (finally I found the problem, 48/4 is not 24 :D ) ... now it works nicely, moved to timer2 here's how it looks like (50%, 60%, 70%, 80%, 90% and 100%)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 04, 2012, 09:25:35 am
Here's the 5%, 10%, 20% and 30%
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 04, 2012, 10:53:41 am
And this is how the heating process looks now after I fixed the PWM

Some explanation

BLUE line is target temperature (what you set as your target). Around 75sec you see it go up then down then up again to 262C I just wanted to see how well the heater and tip will follow... At 220sec you see me dialing it down to 100C (cooling). The rotary encoder changes the TARGET by 0.5C, I changed that now so it actually changes target temp by 5C as there's really no need for better precision :)

RED line represents the readout of the sensor from HAKKO soldering iron. This is the only sensor you normally have and the only sensor you have to drive everything accordingly. You see that there's a big overshoot every time temp is raised, this is by design! Since the tip temperature lags a lot the overshoot of the heater actually helps get the tip temperature where we need it faster. I want to better tune PID to get even better overshoot and bit steeper line at the beginning. The steady temperature oscillations are not terrible (they do not affect tip temperature at all as we can see) but this might be better tuned later on in the project. Also the PID is not tunable trough menu so anyone can set and store his new values.

YELLOW line is the actual tip temperature measured with NTC embedded in the tip. I use NTC because I know these NTC's *Very good* and they are darn precise and super fast. Unfortunately they don't go over 270C. You see how tip temperature lags behind heater temperature but how all the changes in the heater temp are dampened so tip has a very stable temperature. At sec 150 you will note that tip temp drops while heater temp stays the same. This is because I started using soldering iron to solder some headers. What's fairly good is that tip temp dropped only 10C - now this has nothing to do with SID driver nor with the PID. How much the tip temperature will drop compared to measured temperature of the heater depends only on the design of the hand piece. I can say that on original HAKKO hand piece (used in this test) the drop is 5-10C smaller then when using GORDAK clone.

Another important note - ALL values on the graph are taken directly from ADC, there's no low pass filter being employed in software (as the gen1 and gen2 used)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: bearmos on January 04, 2012, 01:54:21 pm
nice work!

This looks a lot better, ahri.  Do you still have the hardware filter in front of the ADC - you mentioned there was no longer software filtering.

Also, what was with the 48/4 reference?  Was that 100% duty cycle being miscalculated or something?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 04, 2012, 07:54:03 pm
[quote author="bearmos"]nice work!
This looks a lot better, ahri.  Do you still have the hardware filter in front of the ADC - you mentioned there was no longer software filtering.
[/quote]

For TC the input is exactly the same as it was on the previous version that worked perfectly (minimal filtering with cap's on the feedback)

:D

for PTC I added a salen key filter but looks like I miscalculated the values of the capacitors as I got some oscillations instead of filtering there hence I removed the caps from the pcb. Now there's no filtering what so ever on the board (and none in software) and you see what the curve looks like :D


[quote author="bearmos"]Also, what was with the 48/4 reference?  Was that 100% duty cycle being miscalculated or something?[/quote]

48/4 :D .. the 18F2550 runs at 48MHz. All delay functions are in "ticks", also tmr overflow is in ticks (prescaler*postscaler*sizeoftimervariable) so 1tick (instruction cycle is) 1/(FOSC/4) or 1/12000000 = .0000000833... seconds but I calculated it as 1/24000000 = .00000004166.. seconds and I was wondering why all the timing was wrong :D For some reason I calculated 48/4 = 24 ... don't ask me how, it was probably 5-6am but still :D

This miscalculation led to many other mistakes (like choosing TMR1 to run PWM instead of using TMR2 so I had a pwm frequency of 0.2Hz instead of 5Hz, wrong timing in communication with LCD ..)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 06, 2012, 03:05:34 pm
Just the small updates for the pcb samples I sent via mail, I spoke with a friend from post office and post will officially start going out of country on Monday 9th (as I expected) after the xmass (Serbian Orthodox church is still on the Julian calendar hence we celebrate xmass tonight instead in December and that's why from 1st January till 9th January mostly noone works).
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 06, 2012, 03:33:24 pm
Another test successful :D I just tried MOC3052 (optocoupler with triac output without zero crossing detection) and it too works like a charm :) so you do not have to go with driver that has integrated zero crossing, you can easily go with cheaper one. (It's still better for your heater to use the zero crossing one but I doubt difference is significant)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 08, 2012, 10:19:14 am
Here's the 3.1.4.227


The calibration menu allows you to select from predefined settings (attm only Ktype thermocouple (solomon hq, weller pes51..), Jtype thermocouple (no idea if there's an iron with this sensor but..) and HAKKO handpiece) or to make your own custom settings. The custom calibration (for all the clones like atten, quick, bakku, aoye..) is done by first finding the "target ADC value" for the 190C value. You should find a way to measure your tip temperature (you can embed ntc in it like I did) or you can find the temperature when your 60/40 solder just barely starts to melt. Be sure to let the value settle, and press menu button. Next you do the same only for 260C. When you press menu button the firmware will recalculate values for the offset and slope (RTD is fairly linear so we can use the simple y=ax+b formula and have only few degrees error on the 200-400C range we are interested in). It will display the values and then you can decide to apply the change (apply means that until reset this new values will be used to calculate temperature of the tip) and after that it will ask you if you wish to store the data (data will be stored in eeprom and used next time you restart the sid). Two options (apply and store) are independent.

Btw during the calibration there are 3 numbers displayed:

A#### M#### N###

A value is the "target ADC value", and you change this value by rotating encoder (0-1023)
M value is the ADC value read from the heater sensor (0-1023)
N value is calculated temperature value from the NTC input. The calculation is based on a table and currently firmware comes with a table for 204-GT NTC (http://http://www.semitec-usa.com/sales_rep/index.html) thermistor (datasheet (http://http://www.datasheetarchive.com/204GT-1-datasheet.html)) 'cause that's what I use. This thermistors are very fast, very accurate and very small so easily you can embed one in the tip, unfortunately they are not easily acquired, I think the minimum order quantity is 100 and last time I ordered a package that 100pcs package was 160$ + shipment. It is very simple to replace the existing table with table for any other thermistor.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 08, 2012, 11:39:49 am
Here's the 3.1.4.230

changelog:

UPDATE on the HARDWARE
 C10 1uF capacitor, when aluminium capacitor is used, it works ok (smooths garbage if some arrives). Donno why ESR play that much here but ceramic 1uF makes everything go haywire. I have not tried to return C9 but will later today to see if it too can be returned (this one ceramic like originally planned) or not.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 08, 2012, 03:01:35 pm
And here's the ready made usable firmware - 3.1.4.233

added 5sec timeout to the menu
fixed some bugs wrt menu
fixed some bugs wrt back light

All in all, from this moment on, it's working firmware.

What's left
 - sleep (button is ignored attm)
 - boost (button is ignored attm)

I gave up on the detection of the soldering process, it's impossible on all 3 irons I have (hakko + clones) and I seen how flaky / non working it is on the professional PACE driver with tip cartridges so it's not worth it. The initial PID is set up for fairly large overshoot as that makes tip more responsive.... but PID can now be set properly trough menu so ..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 09, 2012, 10:26:18 am
donno if we can embed youtube videos here but .. here's something you might want to watch - SID IN ACTION :D (http://http://youtu.be/bP2fUqB8Jr8)

preparing another one, will be there in few minutes

(be sure to turn the annotations on, as there's no sound)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 09, 2012, 10:47:07 am
And here's another one where I monitor tip temperature with external device while torturing tip with damp sponge (http://http://youtu.be/I78YoVwo3f8)

In this video if you look carefully you will notice my LCD is dying .. the darn thing has contact issues inside so top few lines of the display turn off from time to time :(
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on January 09, 2012, 11:35:06 am
Thanks for the shout out. Funny about the encoder. I have a dozen with knobs coming from ebay. They are probably not better than yours, but they have a button and a knob. I will send you one when they get here.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 09, 2012, 12:08:58 pm
[quote author="ian"]Thanks for the shout out. Funny about the encoder. I have a dozen with knobs coming from ebay. They are probably not better than yours, but they have a button and a knob. I will send you one when they get here.[/quote]

the encoder "turning" ain't problematic (there is some wrong readout if you turn it too fast because of the wrong RC circuit for debouncing but that's not too big issue) but pressing the button sucks big time, the box is 1.5-2kg and I move the whole box and darn thing won't press :( .. I have 3 different kinds all have same problem :( (the one inside is ACZ11BR1E-20FA1-20C (http://http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?x=3&y=13&lang=en&site=us&KeyWords=102-1752-ND) )... I just measured it, it takes 680g (6.8N) of force to press the darn thing...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 09, 2012, 12:22:04 pm
anyhow, I sent 3 pcb's to forum members so I hope for some testing from them, Filip is getting 2 (hopefully tonight) so he can build one for his SOLOMON and Weller and one for you .. so I hope for some testing from there too .. all in all it looks good, as you can see on the video I closed the box so I'll be moving SID to my workshop today (the whole reason for SID was that I need good soldering system in workshop as I don't want to move my main soldering station from home) so I will have QUICK rework and PACE stations at home and SID gen2 with SOLOMON and SID gen3 with HAKKO + GORDAK in workshop.


What's very interesting watching this videos is how fast and how much the tip temperature drops when you touch damp sponge. Second time for few seconds of touch the tip temperature dropped more then 170C .. that is serious stress on the tip. You see that tip recovered pretty fast but damn, tip is a piece of copper with iron coating and some special alloy (nickle, chrome and some secret stuff) for the wetting part... it's 3 metals with very different thermal properties that you heat/cool hundreds of degrees in matter of seconds.... Also that TC thermometer measuring tip temp has a "delay" so the temp actually dropped even faster and probably even further then shown by the thermometer.. (it's actually some el-cheapo pid controller for heating and cooling for food industry) ...

The ball of soft metal curly stripes soldering iron cleaning  (AKA dry cleaning) is a way to go ... damp sponge is just too damaging... good hint for the metal "bush" is to get same looking cleaner in any supermarket, one your wife use for scrubbing pots, then you make diluted flux, take some ordinary flux you have and dilute it with iso propil alcohol (3:1 is good measure for commercial flux) or take some iso propil and dilute a small piece of rosin in it, then wet the metal brush with this diluted flux, let it dry and use it as dry tip cleaner. To "fix" it if you don't have a holder for dry tip cleaner, you can use an old trick, find some disposable ashtray or old plate or something similar, extract some glue in the middle and just put the "brush" on that glue, when it dries it will not "escape" from the ashtray/pot/plate and will work nice :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on January 10, 2012, 12:13:57 pm
just a question where do you get the 5 pin connector for the soldering iron?, can you pass me a link.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 10, 2012, 12:28:33 pm
I get them from a local store, they don't deliver outside of Serbia. You should be able to find the connector in any electronics store..

btw original hakko, clones, solomon .. they don't all have same connectors so ..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on January 10, 2012, 12:30:06 pm
ok, thanks.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 10, 2012, 12:54:25 pm
http://nl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Swit ... bXmkKcc%3d (http://nl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Switchcraft/61NC5FX/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvf6myxbP4FpLY3s9imSaWXHPuXbXmkKcc%3d)

http://nl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Amph ... X%252bU%3d (http://nl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Amphenol-Tuchel/T-3402-000/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvf6myxbP4FpDJYY7d64fyYSjzhf%252bTJX%252bU%3d)

http://nl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Amph ... hxas4ho%3d (http://nl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Amphenol-Tuchel/T-3362-000/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvf6myxbP4FpDJYY7d64fyYUNochxas4ho%3d)

http://nl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Swit ... usegzSk%3d (http://nl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Switchcraft/61GB6FX/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvf6myxbP4FpAtolAhV0LRQJJxYusegzSk%3d)

http://nl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Amph ... esHZIEs%3d (http://nl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Amphenol-Tuchel/T3359-150/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvf6myxbP4FpG5QVRDhO2nzS9TZesHZIEs%3d)

etc etc

but you really need to know the type of connector you get on your handpiece and then match it .. they are all different .. especially if you include Weller into the story
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on January 10, 2012, 06:07:27 pm
thanks man
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: skint69 on January 10, 2012, 06:12:01 pm
[quote author="arhi"]
The custom calibration (for all the clones like atten, quick, bakku, aoye..) is done by first finding the "target ADC value" for the 190C value. You should find a way to measure your tip temperature (you can embed ntc in it like I did)[/quote]
Would it be possible to include the tip temperature measurement into the driver board?
You could then automate the custom calibration process.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on January 10, 2012, 06:46:06 pm
there is a NTC  amplifier/buffer that leads to a ADC channel of the pic..... the NTC is to my understanding external, so this could be used to measure the tip temperature, I even think this is how arhi did it, but I am not sure. The problem is that this NTC circuit is used by the driver to measure the junction temperature when the K-type sensor is used, so no calibration like that would be possible for a K -type iron. It can be done in firmware, where the user could type in the current atmo temp, and the driver could use this as the junction temp. then the NTC could be used to measure the tip.

*PS, you can probably forget what I was just talking about since K-type sensor/heater don't require calibration, the constant is the same. (at least I think it is)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on January 10, 2012, 07:28:09 pm
will not be easier add an external temperature sensor, so you touch it and make the calibration, probably a simple diode could be used to sense the temp.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 10, 2012, 10:04:00 pm
there is NTC input on the SID. When you want to calibrate your tip in calibration procedure you see the temperature of the NTC on the screen, you need to dial the sid so that your tip is at 190C and then you need to dial the tip so the tip is at 260C. You can use any external thermometer to get this temperature or NTC connected to the SID (sid will display NTC temp if you attach NTC to the NTC input).

"external temperature sensor that you can touch" ain't simple stuff. Contact temperature measurement is very very very tricky business, for e.g. I have this thermocouple probe:
(http://http://www.sureelectronics.net/images/200808/1219237147065097212.jpg) (http://http://www.sureelectronics.net/goods.php?id=642)

When you press the 350C tip to this probe it will show temperature lower then 200C !!!! it's because contact between the probe and the tip is too small and probe output the average temperature of the whole probe - and 90% of the probe is at room temp and only 10% is at tip temperature so your output is useless. It's same problem with other contact measurement tools. The best way to measure tip temperature is to waste one tip - drill a hole in it and push a sensor (NTC or Thermocouple) in the hole and close the hole with thermal glue, thermal putty, fire cement ... but you need a sensor that can fit in a small hole you can drill in a base of the tip. The next best thing is to heat a "blob of solder" and push the sensor in the blob so that whole sensor is inside the solder blob. The solder blob will be at close temp as the tip hence you will get fairly accurate reading.

For most soldering irons you can also purchase a tip with embedded ntc/tc in it for calibration but these are not cheap. There is also a calibrated tip measurement device with thermal (usually nicr) wire that you "rest" your tip on, but these has to be specially calibrated and are also not very cheap...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on January 11, 2012, 12:33:40 am
well, it's true the measurements will be wrong if you use a sensor bigger than the tip, but if you use  a small sensor (diode, small thermocouple) you can get measurements with an accuracy of +-5°

(http://http://www.freaklabsstore.com/images/sensors/KTHERM_CPL.jpg)
thermocouple type K.

if there is already a NTC input will be better to find an small one. But it can be done, obviously you have to be happy with an error of some degrees.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 11, 2012, 08:57:21 am
actually, no you are not correct. I have identical thermocouple as the one you linked ebedded in the tip. Before embedding it into tip I was using it to push it into "blob of melted solder" to get fairly accurate reading .. when touching tip with this thermocouple (the sensor ball at the top is under 1mm in diameter) still the tip touches it in very small area and the reading are 50-100C lower then the actual tip temperature.

If you could be able to get 5C accuracy on touching the tip with TC noone would pay for the tip with TC embedded :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on January 11, 2012, 09:22:38 am
well i tried at university with a weller solder station, and I get a reading with just 10° error than the number showed on the soldering station. But maybe I should add that the tip mounted on that soldering station was like this one:
http://www.cooperhandtools.com/brands/C ... 7103221568 (http://www.cooperhandtools.com/brands/CF_Files/model_detail.cfm?upc=037103221568)
and not the finest one.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 11, 2012, 09:27:48 am
the closest thing to get a reading with tc just touching the tip is to sand the side of the TC flat so that you have better contact area with iron, press the TC to the tip and then use few layers of heat shrink the press the TC to the tip and shield the tip from  environment .. unfortunately this ain't very good for testing how tip temp changes during soldering but is good enough for calibration
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on January 11, 2012, 09:38:44 am
just to add information, when i was doing the measurements i put the TC over a kind of mat that protect the table from burnings, then i pressed the tip against the TC.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 11, 2012, 09:51:05 am
[quote author="ginpb"]just to add information, when i was doing the measurements i put the TC over a kind of mat that protect the table from burnings, then i pressed the tip against the TC.[/quote]

That can work because mat acts like insulator from the surrounding air allowing the whole tc tip to heat up. unfortunately mat's that can take 450C are fairly expensive (and not readily available all around the World :( )
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on January 11, 2012, 09:59:53 am
yes it's true but for calibration purpose even a wood surface should do the work.

why 190°C?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 11, 2012, 10:48:53 am
for calibration I need (in firmware) 2 points. I used 190C and 260C. 190C I chose as the temperature where your tip is just barely able to melt the 60/40 solder wire so this is temperature you can find even without thermometer, and this is the lowest temperature we are interested in. The 260C is the highest temperature most NTC probes can reliably measure. So those are the 2 I selected. It's fairly simple to set any other 2 temperatures in the firmware.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 15, 2012, 01:16:41 pm
BTW, information wrt NTC

NTC table in firmware is assuming you use 200K NTC from Semitec: 204GT. This thermistor is great in many ways, it's very very small, radial output so it's easily pushed in a very small hole, it is very fast, pretty accurate.... The problem is where to source it from. Semitec has few offices around the World but they sell this at minimum quantity of 100. Last time I ordered it from USA for 1.5$ a piece (150$ for batch of 100). Anyhow communicating with them ain't that easy :( (took me over 20 emails for them to send me that batch of 100 ntc's). Simplest way (and also cheaper) is getting them from rapid (http://http://www.rapidonline.com/SearchResults.aspx?kw=204gt) but rapid sell's them in 200pcs batch for 0.5GBP per piece (so 100GBP for 200 NTC's).

If you know of a similar NTC:
- 100k to 220k at 25C
- radial leads
- small size (so that it can be pushed into a 2mm hole)

but that is available in smaller batches (batch of 10 is ok) and that can measure at least up to 300C (400 or 500C would be perfect) please post a link.

Other info - the TC input in the firmware is not taking into account the ambient temperature (temperature of the cold joint for the thermo couple) so the display will show temp that's 10-40C lower then the real temperature of the tip (depending on your ambient temperature)..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: skint69 on January 16, 2012, 05:47:28 pm
Is this the part?
http://http://my.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Semitec/204GT-2/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtjJbtednZihgqQohFMmQXK
No stock at the moment. :-(
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on January 16, 2012, 06:35:25 pm
Quote
If you know of a similar NTC:
- 100k to 220k at 25C
- radial leads
- small size (so that it can be pushed into a 2mm hole)

I'm sure it's more specific than this, and this is a wrong recommendation, but I was looking for one b/c our SID is done today. I found these. This first one is only 0.8mm diameter:

http://my.mouser.com/ProductDetail/EPCO ... I%2fjlg%3d (http://my.mouser.com/ProductDetail/EPCOS/B57540G104F/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv9eKVyXEc%252bhAZUpToxTU3SRriBDhI%2fjlg%3d)

Too big I guess:
http://my.mouser.com/ProductDetail/EPCO ... 52bDYC0%3d (http://my.mouser.com/ProductDetail/EPCOS/B57560G104F/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv9eKVyXEc%252bhAZUpToxTU3STg13QU%252bDYC0%3d)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sqkybeaver on January 16, 2012, 06:56:03 pm
[quote author="skint69"]Is this the part?
http://http://my.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Semitec/204GT-2/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtjJbtednZihgqQohFMmQXK
No stock at the moment. :-([/quote]

the temp range looks like a good start with this one
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 16, 2012, 07:40:45 pm
skint, yes that's the one I use, but I NEVER seen it "on stock" in mouser :( .. it's always "out of stock" for past 4 years I'm playing with NTC's :( ... It is *very good* little bead :D it's just that semitech don't want to sell them in smaller quantities then 100pcs. Don't get me wrong I have my stock of those so I don't really need them myself, but it's not very nice to design something and then tell ppl - go get yourself $150 pack of NTC's that you will have no clue what to do with :D ..

Also, if you see the details of it, you will see that "factory packaging" is 200pcs and packaging is "bulk" so I'm not sure even if Mouser ever got them on stock they will be available in 1pc

Ian, B57540G104F is great little bead, 0.8 mm is superb, but the problem is that it's 200 C max. It's completely useless for calibration... it could be used for the ambient temp but for that I have better candidate :D, B57560G104F is not only big but also limited to 200 C only :( .. Look for 200 k thermistors, they mostly go up to 300C as that's minimum you can use for calibration (since you are interested in 200-480 C range, measuring 190 C and 260 C points is pretty minimum and 190 C and 290C would be much better, going 250C and 400 C would be MUCH BETTER but I don't know of any NTC that can go over 300 C so..)

For the "ambient temp" I recommend these (farnell order code: 1383986 ) (http://http://uk.farnell.com/honeywell-s-c-fenwall/135-104lag-j01/ntc-thermistor/dp/1383986?Ntt=1383986).

The radial NTC's, especially the small ones like 204GT and similar have super tiny legs that break off very easy, they are nice and small but if you do not need small, you better go with a nice glass rod ones like this HONEYWELL S&C / FENWALL - 135-104LAG-J01 - NTC Thermistor as it has strong legs that you can solder, or clamp  :)

Btw I will add the support for this honeywell NTC's into the next version of firmware for KType cold joint compensation.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on January 16, 2012, 07:54:07 pm
Sorry, I looked at 400 and though F, and then assumed 200C was at least twice that :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: bearmos on January 16, 2012, 07:56:56 pm
[quote author="arhi"]Also, if you see the details of it, you will see that "factory packaging" is 200pcs and packaging is "bulk" so I'm not sure even if Mouser ever got them on stock they will be available in 1pc[/quote]

"bulk" typically refers to whether when you get them they're going to be on tape, in a tray, or bulk - individual components loosely thrown into a bag/box.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 16, 2012, 08:03:26 pm
other then semitech on mouser I found
http://my.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Hone ... E19VBuQ%3d (http://my.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Honeywell/120-202EAD-Q02/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv9eKVyXEc%252bhAULRLzvcdBYa2gPE19VBuQ%3d)

http://my.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Hone ... KKU8JA0%3d (http://my.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Honeywell/120-202EAG-Q01/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv9eKVyXEc%252bhAULRLzvcdBYAKf%252bKKU8JA0%3d)

http://my.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Hone ... iLG4ctc%3d (http://my.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Honeywell/120-102EAJ-Q01/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv9eKVyXEc%252bhJteo5LvzNFiHDfoiLG4ctc%3d)

they are "thin" but 20% error and they are pretty long not sure how would that work in a tip ..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: bearmos on January 16, 2012, 08:28:43 pm
[quote author="arhi"]other then semitech on mouser I found
http://my.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Hone ... E19VBuQ%3d (http://my.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Honeywell/120-202EAD-Q02/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv9eKVyXEc%252bhAULRLzvcdBYa2gPE19VBuQ%3d)

http://my.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Hone ... KKU8JA0%3d (http://my.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Honeywell/120-202EAG-Q01/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv9eKVyXEc%252bhAULRLzvcdBYAKf%252bKKU8JA0%3d)

http://my.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Hone ... iLG4ctc%3d (http://my.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Honeywell/120-102EAJ-Q01/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv9eKVyXEc%252bhJteo5LvzNFiHDfoiLG4ctc%3d)

they are "thin" but 20% error and they are pretty long not sure how would that work in a tip ..[/quote]


I thought you wanted 100k - these appear to be 1k and 2k? 

Also, the important thing with thermal sensors is active measurement area, not necessarily total length.  This is why you can use a 24" steel sheathed probe only partially submerged in something and still get an accurate temperature - as long as the submersed area covers the active measurement area of the probe - it should be stated in the datasheet somewhere.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 16, 2012, 09:36:12 pm
[quote author="bearmos"]
I thought you wanted 100k - these appear to be 1k and 2k? 
[/quote]

I prefer 200 k but 1 k works as well. I mentioned 200 k because those most probably go over 250 C. Problem with these ones is the
size of the sensor, it's long, and all NTC's I seen, that are bare and not encased like these ones, use the whole body as the measurement area
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 17, 2012, 01:38:50 am
Btw, a "short" summary: http://elco.crsndoo.com/wordpress/2012/ ... n3-rev1-4/ (http://elco.crsndoo.com/wordpress/2012/01/soldering-iron-driver-gen3-rev1-4/)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on January 17, 2012, 08:23:10 pm
I just assembled Arhis Gen 3...:D:D It works out of the box perfectly, flip a switch and poof....
Well I had issues with he contrast of the LCD, but that was my inexperience with these LCDs....

I tested it on Weller PES51, and Solomon hq30.. The test was done by applying heat from a reflow air gun....
Weller has a sensor separated from the heater, so the temperature change is imitatively registered. While Solomon has the heater and sensor integrated, and it takes quite a while for the air gun to heat the assembly so a temp diff is noticed.... I guess you get what you pay for, Solomon is around $13 while the Weller is $40 :D
All in all a great little device...works like it should out of the box, what more can you ask for...

BTW sorry for the mess. my desk is the only place where I can work, and every time I make something it looks like a war-zone...there are parts and tools every ware....
P.S. arhi will post later a firmware update so people can use just buttons instead of encoder...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 17, 2012, 08:34:17 pm
Here it is. Attached is the latest firmware source and 2 hex files (in the same archive). One hex is for the encoder and other is for buttons
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Loki on January 18, 2012, 05:23:24 pm
Have you somewhere photos of fully assembled driver?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 18, 2012, 05:27:53 pm
[quote author="Loki"]Have you somewhere photos of fully assembled driver?[/quote]

The "case" or the "pcb" ?

case is not very interesting :D, you can see it on youtube video: http://youtu.be/bP2fUqB8Jr8 (http://youtu.be/bP2fUqB8Jr8) and http://youtu.be/I78YoVwo3f8 (http://youtu.be/I78YoVwo3f8)

pcb, donno, I can take a pic now if you like (most of the pic's I published were taken during build :D )
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 18, 2012, 05:51:42 pm
here's the populated / working pcb

As you can see the USB is not added to the board at all (I do not use it) and DC driver is also not populated also (I have AC input, don't have 24VDC input so it does not make much sense to populate that)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sqkybeaver on January 18, 2012, 05:55:10 pm
using the fet drive i could turn my crock pot into a suvide machine
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 18, 2012, 06:05:28 pm
Well yes you can adapt SID to be driver for suvide, but why DC, you can power your heater with AC too, pwm works great there, there's actually 100 pwm levels so it could keep temp super constant, just push a TC into the "oven" and that's it... AC source should be easier to get then DC. Now note that DCDC on board (lm2574) can handle 40V max (there's also HV version that can go up to 60V) so you can't power the device without changes with more then 28VAC but with small changes (do not mount 4 rectifying diodes at all and bring DC signal that's 10-40V directly to C16) you can drive 110VAC or 230VAC heater with SID. Just make sure the triac (U4) is capable of handling voltage and current your heater require.. I already tried it with a 230VAC source and light bulb - it works like a charm :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sqkybeaver on January 18, 2012, 06:09:04 pm
the fet would be perfect for driving a relay, (just add diode) then no mods would be needed for GF's crockpot
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on January 18, 2012, 06:13:07 pm
I read on my DP SID, that the input is 24VAC, why 24?, because you have a transformer to 24?, or by a soldering iron spec?
thanks
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 18, 2012, 06:33:50 pm
[quote author="ginpb"]I read on my DP SID, that the input is 24VAC, why 24?, because you have a transformer to 24?, or by a soldering iron spec?
thanks[/quote]

HAKKO 907, 907A, 907ESD, 908, 908A, 908ESD soldering iron, as well as the hakko clones BAKKU 907, QUICK 907, ATTEN 907, Gordak 907 and many others have 48 W heater that's intended to run on 24 VAC (12 ohm resistance of the heater)

SOLOMON SL10, SL20, SL30, HQ30 soldering iron have 48 W heater intended to run on 24 VAC (12 ohm resistance)

Weller PES51 soldering iron comes with 50 W heater planned to run on 24 VAC (11.52 ohm resistance)

So all soldering irons I tested run at 24 VAC and are either 48 W or 50 W. Now of course there are many more soldering irons out there, but I tested the ones readily available for me and easily acquirable by anyone else (you can get HAKKO 907 for $13 on ebay, you can get Weller PES51 for $35 on ebay, you can get Solomon usually for $10-$15 depends on the brand as Solomon is the large OEM manufacturer that sells irons under many names like Nedis, Elanco, Tenma ...)

There is also huge number of noname soldering irons available from different sources that are 24 VAC 50 W irons, the only question is what type of sensor they have.... but taking into account that you can get HAKKO hand piece of great quality for $13 and Weller hand piece of superb quality for $35 I don't think you should look further :D

So to answer your question, no it's not because I have 24 VAC transformer but because it's soldering iron specification. If you have 12 VAC transformer it will still work, only your iron will work as 12 W iron instead of 48 W so it will heat slower and will probably have to keep heater on longer then usual but it will work and you will be able to solder with it..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 18, 2012, 06:36:12 pm
[quote author="sqkybeaver"]the fet would be perfect for driving a relay, (just add diode) then no mods would be needed for GF's crockpot[/quote]

You can add fet with embedded diode (emf protected) and you don't even need that :D ... btw you might be able to drive relay from the optocoupler directly (with a diode of course) depends on what voltage you need on the relay. In any case you'd have to change the firmware as I'm sure relay would hate the pwm :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on January 18, 2012, 06:59:49 pm
Ok, in fact i ordered a Hakko 907 from ebay (10 euros).
how can they sell a quality (i hope)soldering iron and send it from China for only 10 euros, i don't know, if I want to send a package smaller than a soldering iron on Italy at least i should expend 5 euros.
Love china.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sqkybeaver on January 18, 2012, 07:13:40 pm
[quote author="ginpb"]Ok, in fact i ordered a Hakko 907 from ebay (10 euros).
how can they sell a quality (i hope)soldering iron and send it from China for only 10 euros, i don't know, if I want to send a package smaller than a soldering iron on Italy at least i should expend 5 euros.
Love china.[/quote]

they are simple and fairly easy to manufacture, there is no reason for them to cost more.

WRT to using pic with more flash, different tips have different thermal mass, and will probably have differences in the delta temp between the tip and sensor, it would be logical to have tip profiles you can change in settings menu.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: skint69 on January 18, 2012, 08:04:08 pm
[quote author="ginpb"]Ok, in fact i ordered a Hakko 907 from ebay (10 euros).
how can they sell a quality (i hope)soldering iron and send it from China for only 10 euros, i don't know, if I want to send a package smaller than a soldering iron on Italy at least i should expend 5 euros.
Love china.[/quote]
Are you sure it's not a clone?
BTW, I was on ebay looking for a Hakko 907 too and found this :-)
http://http://www.ebay.com/itm/Soldering-Station-Digital-DC-Controller-HAKKO-936-Compatible-907-Iron-Handle-/130629499372?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e6a1ff9ec

Can I have the link to your ebay Hakko?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 18, 2012, 08:20:39 pm
[quote author="ginpb"]Ok, in fact i ordered a Hakko 907 from ebay (10 euros).
how can they sell a quality (i hope)soldering iron and send it from China for only 10 euros, i don't know, if I want to send a package smaller than a soldering iron on Italy at least i should expend 5 euros.
Love china.[/quote]

It is very simple
1. they manufacture them in large quantities.
2. There's no reason for that iron to cost more then 10EUR even if they made it in Sweden let alone in Asia.
3. It is "old model", HAKKO is selling now the new FX 8802 hand piece (the ones that come with FX888 stations) so the old 907 and 908 hand pieces are not being produced any more so they only exist as spare parts stocked in different stores and by irons made by clone companies.

BTW, I tested MANY clones and original, the worse clone I tried is Gordak and it is still a VERY GOOD hand piece.. so no worries there :)

Tips are what's "expensive" and what's "important" .. them you want to get as good as you can .. originals if possible.

BTW, I have TD-100 hand piece from PACE. It is 2 pieces of plastic made on injection molding machine, piece of cable, 2 connectors and one o-ring. Price to manufacture this hand piece is between 2 and 3 US$ after you make the tool for injection molding machine (tool cost 4000 - 5000 US$ in Sweden, waaaaaaaaay less if you are factory in Asia). They are selling this hand pieces for over 120 EUR !!! It is literally a 2 pieces of shitty plastic and a piece of cable.

[quote author="sqkybeaver"]
WRT to using pic with more flash, different tips have different thermal mass, and will probably have differences in the delta temp between the tip and sensor, it would be logical to have tip profiles you can change in settings menu.[/quote]

Exactly the reason why I used the pic with a lot of flash. Attm ~60% of flash is used. There's no USB but there is a debug info being collected and sent to the UART. I don't really see any reason to have USB on my soldering iron so as you can see I have not even soldered USB connector on my boards, I use UART and some usb2ttluart board to read data (bus pirate would get the job done too) ... Now attm the firmware is very basic. Basic calibration for sensor + PID for heater. No autocalibration, no autodetection, no .... even display routing is pretty "basic", for e.g. it would be way better to redraw only temperature values and not the whole screen (so you see lcd blinking when is slow for e.g.), add few levels of menus, activate 2 additional buttons (boost/pedal and suspend) etc etc ..

So yes, having predefined PID values is something firmware should have. There's enough eeprom on 18F2550 to store bunch of them, so you can have stored values for different irons, different tips ... maybe a menu to let you "name" the save location :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 18, 2012, 08:28:27 pm
[quote author="skint69"]Are you sure it's not a clone?[/quote]

most of them are, who cares. I compared some with the original one (paid way more then 10$) and it's identical in any way.

[quote author="skint69"]BTW, I was on ebay looking for a Hakko 907 too and found this :-)[/url]

These drivers started appearing few weeks after I published schematic for my original gen1 driver few years ago :). They have one issue afaik, they only PWM the input DC voltage into your iron so if you for e.g. have 12 VDC input you run your iron at 12 W only. If you for e.g. use 19 VDC laptop supply you run it with 30 W. It only supports original hakko irons (can't be used with clones that have sensor that have bit different characteristics) but anyhow it is a nice little device.


Quote
Can I have the link to your ebay Hakko?
[/quote]

unfortunately ebay links don't last long. I'm trying to locate the seller who sold me mine original hakko as I'm very pleased with it (compared to some other "original" hakko's that does not look as original as this one). I remember that iron arrived from USA, I was surprised as I assumed it will arrive from PRC... unfortunately I have few guy's in history there so I have no clue who sent me what :(
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on January 18, 2012, 09:34:29 pm
I doubt this is original: http://www.ebay.it/itm/Soldering-Statio ... 3f107c1a52 (http://www.ebay.it/itm/Soldering-Station-Iron-Handle-for-HAKKO-907-ESD-936-NEW-/270859508306?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item3f107c1a52)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 18, 2012, 10:13:19 pm
looks like the real one, I don't think you will have any troubles with it even if it is a copy.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: skint69 on January 19, 2012, 04:30:03 pm
[quote author="arhi"]Tips are what's "expensive" and what's "important" .. them you want to get as good as you can .. originals if possible.[/quote]
The fear is paying good money for originals that turns out to be fakes.

[quote author="arhi"]looks like the real one, I don't think you will have any troubles with it even if it is a copy.[/quote]
I swear all these different ebay sellers are ripping off the same pictures.

[quote author="ginpb"]Ok, in fact i ordered a Hakko 907 from ebay (10 euros).[/quote]
When you get your iron (I hesitate to call them Hakkos) can you tell us if the product is original and is it anything like the pictures on the item's page?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 19, 2012, 04:53:55 pm
[quote author="skint69"][quote author="arhi"]Tips are what's "expensive" and what's "important" .. them you want to get as good as you can .. originals if possible.[/quote]
The fear is paying good money for originals that turns out to be fakes.
[/quote]

Original tips are not expensive...

btw, I used some ebay tip packs for hakko .. like these ones for 10-15$:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Solder-Solde ... 467wt_1398 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Solder-Soldering-Iron-Tip-Hakko-Station-900M-933-/110809523087?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19ccc3238f#ht_4467wt_1398)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-x-solder-Iro ... 965wt_1165 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-x-solder-Iron-tip-hakko-soldering-rework-station-/220840297613?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item336b1b848d#ht_3965wt_1165)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Solder-Solde ... 554wt_1398 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Solder-Soldering-Iron-Tip-Hakko-Station-900M-933-/250969440110?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6ef1bf6e#ht_3554wt_1398)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Solder-Solde ... 455wt_1398 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Solder-Soldering-Iron-Tip-Hakko-Station-900M-933-/180796201769?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a184b1b29#ht_4455wt_1398)

They are NOT original (original tips have engraved/pressed in HAKKO brand name and tip type, these don't) but they WORK LIKE A CHARM !!!

I heard about poor quality tips being available for hakko but I never purchased any (and I purchased lot of these cheap clone tips). All tips I ever purchased for hakko were "incredibly good", they last incredibly long and wet like a charm :). On top of that, they are so freaking cheap that even if a tip work for a month only it's cheap enough to throw it away and get a new one :D



[quote author="skint69"][quote author="arhi"]looks like the real one, I don't think you will have any troubles with it even if it is a copy.[/quote]
I swear all these different ebay sellers are ripping off the same pictures.[/quote]

The HAKKO's I purchased from ebay for $13 look exactly like on picture and they look exactly like original hakko (purchased in expensive store original blah blah ...). Even the heater look like original hakko heater (clones have bit different heaters).
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: voidptr on January 19, 2012, 06:18:20 pm
[quote author="arhi"]
Original tips are not expensive...

btw, I used some ebay tip packs for hakko .. like these ones for 10-15$:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Solder-Solde ... 467wt_1398 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Solder-Soldering-Iron-Tip-Hakko-Station-900M-933-/110809523087?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19ccc3238f#ht_4467wt_1398)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-x-solder-Iro ... 965wt_1165 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-x-solder-Iron-tip-hakko-soldering-rework-station-/220840297613?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item336b1b848d#ht_3965wt_1165)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Solder-Solde ... 554wt_1398 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Solder-Soldering-Iron-Tip-Hakko-Station-900M-933-/250969440110?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6ef1bf6e#ht_3554wt_1398)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Solder-Solde ... 455wt_1398 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Solder-Soldering-Iron-Tip-Hakko-Station-900M-933-/180796201769?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a184b1b29#ht_4455wt_1398)

They are NOT original (original tips have engraved/pressed in HAKKO brand name and tip type, these don't) but they WORK LIKE A CHARM !!!

I heard about poor quality tips being available for hakko but I never purchased any (and I purchased lot of these cheap clone tips). All tips I ever purchased for hakko were "incredibly good", they last incredibly long and wet like a charm :). On top of that, they are so freaking cheap that even if a tip work for a month only it's cheap enough to throw it away and get a new one :D
[/quote]

interesting long thread :o)

Santa during Xmas time bought me an Hakko FX-888, it is so better than those junk pencils all in one ! 
i might try you links for tips for hakko ...

too bad i didn't had time to build one of your station !
( i will not need to build one in a near future, my new station will be good for few years i guess)
but it is interesting to look at :-)

:-)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 19, 2012, 11:29:53 pm
FX888 is great station. Not sure if this tips for 907 work with 8802 hand piece you have
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on January 20, 2012, 04:31:48 pm
the parts on the board are 0805?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 20, 2012, 04:37:16 pm
the smd parts are 0805, but that's only analog part, rest is trough hole
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on January 20, 2012, 07:35:43 pm
another question, can you tell me wich part is the optocoupler-npn, because it's not written on the schematics.
thanks
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on January 20, 2012, 08:37:25 pm
Don't worry, I just answered by myself. :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 20, 2012, 09:58:05 pm
you don't need that part if you are powering the station with AC. (FET and that npn opto should not be populated)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on January 20, 2012, 10:24:53 pm
I know, but I have a couple of DC power supply that can make the job. So i just not decided yet if it's gonna be AC or DC
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 21, 2012, 12:02:26 am
note that DC part of that design was *never* tested. I assume it should work but I never placed those DC parts on the board myself. Also note that you need 25V to get full power out of your heater.

One other thing that worries me is the inductance of the heater. One never really think about that but heater is a piece of resistance wire wound inside some ceramic tube so it should be fairly inductive. There are 2 issues with it, first the back EMF when you turn in on and off, secondly, if you do PWM you can build up voltage and actually burn up your heater (since the voltage will be too high hence the current will go up and the heater will burn). Another possible issue is the sensory circuit, since sensor wires usually go straight trough the heater you have one coil that you are pwm-ing and you have 2 wires going trough that coil. There has to be some current/voltage induced inside those wires. That current might kill the sensor or just mess up the reading ..

I might be 100% off on all this points and DC might work perfectly but I know all these irons work perfectly on AC so I don't want to risk it :), AC transformer is simple, cheap.. no reason to experiment :D

Anyhow, the DC part is there so if it works for you, please share.

ONE SUPER IMPORTANT THING!!!
SID do not have a FUSE on the power input. You MUST HAVE FUSE!!! I do not use fuse on PCB because all fuses I have are for "wires" so I have 2.5A glass fuse on the wire bringing 24 VAC into the PCB. BE SURE TO ADD THAT FUSE. 2.1-2.5 A is what you need depending on what type of LCD you use. The whole circuit (48W heater + everything on board + standard lcd) takes 2100 mA MAX. On top of that you need current for lcd back light. I have here LCD's that pull 30 mA and I have some that pull 280 mA for the back light, and I used some earlier that pull a whole amper!!! Anyhow whatever you do ADD A DARN FUSE TO THE POWER INPUT!!! DO NOT TURN ON SID WITHOUT IT!!
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: skint69 on January 21, 2012, 07:51:18 am
You might want to put that warning on your first post with the files.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on January 21, 2012, 12:01:08 pm
the back emf, shouldn't be a problem, the FET had a free wheeling diode inside (we can put an external one too, but i believe is unnecesary). Regarding the interference with the sensor, i don't know, i should try.

The triac, i don't have any experience using them, so i want to ask if this two components can work together or not: il410 and bta06-600sw, which parameters you look?. They are pin compatible with the devices used on your design.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 21, 2012, 12:24:35 pm
[quote author="skint69"]You might want to put that warning on your first post with the files.[/quote]

done
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 21, 2012, 12:29:20 pm
[quote author="ginpb"]the back emf, shouldn't be a problem, the FET had a free wheeling diode inside (we can put an external one too, but i believe is unnecesary). Regarding the interference with the sensor, i don't know, i should try.[/quote]

As I said - I have not tested it - so I can't cay how well it works. I tested only the AC 24 V input.


[quote author="ginpb"]The triac, i don't have any experience using them, so i want to ask if this two components can work together or not: il410 and bta06-600sw, which parameters you look?. They are pin compatible with the devices used on your design.[/quote]

yes that combo should work without a problem. IL410 has zero crossing detection and BTA06 can handle way more then 2A required for the heater (and waaaaaaay more then 24 VAC you need it to switch)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Loki on January 22, 2012, 11:05:11 pm
I have question, what difference it might make if there was a zero-crossing detection circuit and soldering iron controlling algorithm  would be synchronized with this?
Sorry if there were the answer for this but I couldnt find it
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 22, 2012, 11:23:51 pm
The zero crossing is in the opto coupler driving triac. You can use non zero crossing driver without a problem and it will still work just fine, it's just that turning the heater on while sine goes trough zero makes less noise and is bit better for the heater .. I tested the design without the zero crossing driver and it worked just as nice.

If you are asking about bringing zero crossing info to the mcu so that mcu can output "0-100% of the period", it would be completely useless really as you are controlling a very inert system. It's something you'd need to do to dim the light as you don't want it to flicker, but for heater you really don't care as it would not improve anything and it would make firmware many times more sensitive and errors prone.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on January 27, 2012, 06:34:04 pm
Finally arrived the pcb, I start mounting the board. Some questions though.
1)I read about the C9-C10 problem, then you posted about C10 is ok if aluminum, you tried to put again c9 after that?.
2)for what L2?, is a filter?, and can I replace 470uf capacitor with 220uf?, looking the datasheet the output capacitor should be between 100uf-470uf.

thanks again for the board.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 27, 2012, 08:11:26 pm
[quote author="ginpb"]Finally arrived the pcb, I start mounting the board. Some questions though.
1)I read about the C9-C10 problem, then you posted about C10 is ok if aluminum, you tried to put again c9 after that?.
[/quote]

With C10 as aluminium it works, but does not work better then without it so feel free not to mount C10 at all

C9 - no, I had no time to do further testing there. There has to be a value that works ok but I had no time to test. Just don't mount C9 and C10 and everything will work perfectly :). It will be much easier to find proper C9 and C10 values on DP version of the SID 'cause it's trough hole.. it's not that easy to try different C9 values as it's all crammed up in 0805 in small area of the board.

[quote author="ginpb"]2)for what L2?, is a filter?, and can I replace 470uf capacitor with 220uf?, looking the datasheet the output capacitor should be between 100uf-470uf.
[/quote]

C15 and C16 has to be 50V minimum. C15 can be 100-400nF, C16 is min 47uF but I personally use 100uF there.

C21 is 10V and can be from 100uF to 1000uF. More the merrier :D, but 100uF is enough (I use 1000uF for e.g.). Use low ESR if you can

L2 is the additional smoothing filter after the chopper. IT IS NOT NECESARY, if you don't have 1uH 0.5A just short it with a piece of wire, the psu works just find without it. I added that as additional filtering piece 'cause I have some 1uH trough hole inductors on stock.

C17 should be 10V 1-22uF, 10uF low ESR is ideal

C18 should be 100uF to 1000uF, more the merrier, low ESR would be great but regular aluminium is ok.

If you do not use L2 you do not have to use C21 (so you can short the L2 with a piece of wire and ommit C21 from the board).

D7 is not required but I kinda like having it there.
 
If you'r not using DC output you do not need R37, R38 U6, D9, Q2 and you want to short JP2 (no need to put jumper there if it is always going to be used as AC driver)

R30 - short it or use 0R resistor
R31 - do not place it

C1-C5 - do not mount these (they just make everything worse)
R6-R10 - short these, do not use resistors or put 0R resistors there
X1 - 20 MHz crystal

R36 - this one actually depends on the D2. Depending on what led you use change the R36. Classic RED LED has Vf = 2V so if you want to push 5mA trough it (more then enough for more led's today) 680R is perfect value for R36, but if you want the led to be brighter and push for e.g. 10mA then use 360R for R36. I find 680R perfect for standard 5mm led's on 5V supply.

hope this helps :D

[quote author="ginpb"]thanks again for the board.[/quote]
you are more then welcome, send pictures when you make it work :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on January 28, 2012, 10:41:26 am
yes, it's help a lot, know I have to figured out wich voltage are rated this smd capacitor. (C15) :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 28, 2012, 11:10:28 am
standard 0805 ceramic below 1uF are rated minimum 50V so you should not worry
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on January 28, 2012, 11:19:43 am
ok, good to know.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on February 16, 2012, 01:11:05 pm
Today have finally arrived my hakko soldering iron that i bought from eBay (http://www.ebay.it/itm/Soldering-Statio ... 3f107c1a52 (http://www.ebay.it/itm/Soldering-Station-Iron-Handle-for-HAKKO-907-ESD-936-NEW-/270859508306?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item3f107c1a52))
Probably today or tomorrow i will try it on my SID.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: skint69 on February 18, 2012, 04:12:08 am
[quote author="ginpb"]Today have finally arrived my hakko soldering iron that i bought from eBay (http://www.ebay.it/itm/Soldering-Statio ... 3f107c1a52 (http://www.ebay.it/itm/Soldering-Station-Iron-Handle-for-HAKKO-907-ESD-936-NEW-/270859508306?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item3f107c1a52))
Probably today or tomorrow i will try it on my SID.[/quote]
How long is the power cord?
Most I see on Ebay is suspiciously short at only 100cm.

(odd, I posted the above last night but it's not here today so reposting)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 18, 2012, 04:31:18 am
1m is the normal length (all clones and originals I have came with 1m cord)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sqkybeaver on February 18, 2012, 04:53:18 am
don't feel bad, mine is only 0.8 meters long
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on February 18, 2012, 10:43:39 am
[quote author="skint69"][quote author="ginpb"]Today have finally arrived my hakko soldering iron that i bought from eBay (http://www.ebay.it/itm/Soldering-Statio ... 3f107c1a52 (http://www.ebay.it/itm/Soldering-Station-Iron-Handle-for-HAKKO-907-ESD-936-NEW-/270859508306?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item3f107c1a52))
Probably today or tomorrow i will try it on my SID.[/quote]
How long is the power cord?
Most I see on Ebay is suspiciously short at only 100cm.

(odd, I posted the above last night but it's not here today so reposting)[/quote]
it is 1 meter long.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on February 18, 2012, 02:27:16 pm
At the moment i'm trying to make work my nokia LCD on the SID, but for now it just blink.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on February 22, 2012, 02:02:02 pm
it took a while, but finally my SID is working with my nokia LCD (i hate c18). Now i need a nice box.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 22, 2012, 02:45:33 pm
what's wrong with c18? if you didn't have c18 driver for 3310 nokia why didn't you just ask :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on February 22, 2012, 02:55:32 pm
I have a very simple driver for nokia written for hitech, but there are some little differences between C18, hi-tech and standard C that are very tricky to found. However now is working like a charm.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: drug123 on March 07, 2012, 07:52:09 pm
Guys, I feel myself frustrated and stupid. I'm really newbie in analog electronics, and some time ago started my attempts to amplify k-type thermocouple signal using standard non-inverting amplifier. Main idea was to have cheap I2C sensor for k-type, using MCU as I2C interface for the purpose of building own solder iron driver. Unfortunately my attempts were not so successful. Luckily this topic was found and I developed small board using schematic from the very first message of this thread. The only difference is that I used MCP607 instead of MCP617, which have a bit worse characteristics, but nothing significant, as I understand. Few days ago I received my boards, soldered a couple of them and found that analog part does not work as supposed. Actually I got +5V at the output of first amplifier stage (and consequently second too).

Could anybody take a look at my schematics and explain me where I'm wrong? I tried to simulate circuit in the NI Multisim, and in simulations it works fine, as expected. Maybe it will be efficient if I measure voltages on the board (where? I don't have a clue).
[attachment=2][attachment=3][attachment=1][attachment=0]
Thanks for any help in advance and sorry if my message is not appropriate here.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 07, 2012, 08:37:00 pm
if you upload a pdf or png of your schematic it might happen, brd and sch ain't something everyone can open ..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: drug123 on March 07, 2012, 09:40:48 pm
[quote author="arhi"]if you upload a pdf or png of your schematic it might happen, brd and sch ain't something everyone can open ..[/quote]
Thanks for the tip, I added both schematics and board image.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: welash on March 07, 2012, 10:01:11 pm
It looks to me like your feedback in the first stage is going to the non-inverting input, but should be going to the inverting input.  That is, R4 should be connected to pin 2 instead of pin 3.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on March 07, 2012, 10:03:24 pm
yes, the feedback is connected to the wrong pin.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 07, 2012, 10:06:14 pm
yup, you copied the schematic wrong :(

btw, if you want to make i2c/spi reader for the sensor, check out maxim, they have already spi thermocouple reader with embedded cold joint compensation, it will cost you much less then making one yourself, and is already calibrated.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: drug123 on March 07, 2012, 10:19:36 pm
[quote author="arhi"]yup, you copied the schematic wrong :(

btw, if you want to make i2c/spi reader for the sensor, check out maxim, they have already spi thermocouple reader with embedded cold joint compensation, it will cost you much less then making one yourself, and is already calibrated.[/quote]
Oh my God, I knew it should be something stupid, thanks for the help, I'll try to correct tomorrow by cutting/jumping to test the approach.

Regarding MAX6675 - it cost $14 at digi. My board cost less than $5 - 3 times less. BTW, it's also compensated, LM75 placed next to thermocouple clamp.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: drug123 on March 07, 2012, 10:24:36 pm
[quote author="welash"]It looks to me like your feedback in the first stage is going to the non-inverting input, but should be going to the inverting input.  That is, R4 should be connected to pin 2 instead of pin 3.[/quote]
Thanks a lot. I really don't understand how I could miss it; checked it like hundred times when board did not started...
Thanks again!
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 07, 2012, 11:21:13 pm
6675 is not the only chip :) ... check out also AD and Linear :) for e.g. LTC2484 is 5$ and it's TC to SPI, or you want LTC2485, same thing only I2C ands again 5$ part...

Also, if you wanna do it with ADC and MCU, consider LT1025 for cold junction compensation and LTC6081 or LTC2050 to get xxmV/C ..

Check out example circuits at: http://circuits.linear.com/thermocouple (http://circuits.linear.com/thermocouple)
there's bunch of circuits there and all are cheaper then what you are trying to make. I made the TC amplifier with mcp because attm that's what I had in my drawer and what I had some experience with, but LT is waaaaaaaaay better way to go here :D (and way cheaper way to go)

you are saying the pcb + mcu + op-amp + lm75 + other passives and connectors will cost you $5 ? I have hard time believing this, again LTC2484 / LTC2485 does that in single chip for 5$ .. so forget MAX6675, it's deprecated chip anyhow
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: drug123 on March 08, 2012, 08:02:56 am
[quote author="arhi"]6675 is not the only chip :) ... check out also AD and Linear :) for e.g. LTC2484 is 5$ and it's TC to SPI, or you want LTC2485, same thing only I2C ands again 5$ part...[/quote]
Thanks for the tips, I considered them before starting with the board. But you know, it's only chips and they anyway requires board, connectors and so on. LTC6081 + LT1025 as ready-made solution cost around 10$. And important advantage of my board is that you will have 2 outputs to control peripherial via I2C. I plan to use it with I2C-tiny-USB, so just these two small boards and solid state relay - and you have reflow oven controller for example.

[quote author="arhi"]you are saying the pcb + mcu + op-amp + lm75 + other passives and connectors will cost you $5 ? I have hard time believing this[/quote]
PCB - 30 @$13 (ITead) = $0.43
ATTiny25 - $1.89 (Digi)
MCP607 - 40 @$13 (eBay) = $0.34 (Yeah, I have them in my drawer too, and for cheap! ;o)
LM75 - @0.98 (Digi)
Connectors and discrete around $1.20
Total = $4.84!
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on March 08, 2012, 08:04:10 am
[quote author="drug123"][quote author="arhi"]yup, you copied the schematic wrong :(

btw, if you want to make i2c/spi reader for the sensor, check out maxim, they have already spi thermocouple reader with embedded cold joint compensation, it will cost you much less then making one yourself, and is already calibrated.[/quote]
Oh my God, I knew it should be something stupid, thanks for the help, I'll try to correct tomorrow by cutting/jumping to test the approach.

Regarding MAX6675 - it cost $14 at digi. My board cost less than $5 - 3 times less. BTW, it's also compensated, LM75 placed next to thermocouple clamp.[/quote]

*TIP- Maxim has a very good free Sample service, just registrar and order 2 samples from them, they'll arrive in 2-4 weeks. If I was successful at getting them in Serbia, I bet anyone can get them.
BTW MAX6675 is not produced any more, they have a pin to pin replacement MAX31855, its also cheaper,  ~$7.5 at digikey, and better, more accurate, and safer on the k-type.

MMAX31855 2 @ 0, -$0 -Maxim free sanple service :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: skint69 on March 08, 2012, 04:13:05 pm
[quote author="arakis"]
*TIP- Maxim has a very good free Sample service, just registrar and order 2 samples from them, they'll arrive in 2-4 weeks. If I was successful at getting them in Serbia, I bet anyone can get them.
[/quote]
Just curious, but how much did they charge you for shipping from wherever to Serbia from and what shipping options are available?

Free, they sometimes ship from UK, sometimes from Hong Kong. always free. I once got a box half a meter in length, width, and height that contained only 6 tiny DFN chips :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on March 08, 2012, 05:12:38 pm
nothing, shipping is free. At least, for Italy is free.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on March 08, 2012, 05:56:21 pm
arhi, can you send me your library for the nokia 3310. Everything was working ok, a make a small change in the code, and now doesn't work, even if I come back to the original code the display doesn't work, I tried with and old project and the LCD is ok. so maybe with a new library.
Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 08, 2012, 07:03:17 pm
Here's one of the 3310 libs I use

Code: [Select]
void nokia_init(void);
void nokia_clean_ddram(void);
void nokia_write_command(char nokia_command);
void nokia_write_data(char nokia_data);
void nokia_write_byte(char bytefornokia);
void nokia_gotoxy(char ynokia, char xnokia);
void nokia_contrast(char contrast);
void nokia_print(char charsel);
void lcdpixel (char x, char y) ;


const unsigned char tablo1 [240] = { 
                  0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,   
                  0x00,0x00,0x5f,0x00,0x00,   
                  0x00,0x07,0x00,0x07,0x00,   
                  0x14,0x7f,0x14,0x7f,0x14,   
                  0x24,0x2a,0x7f,0x2a,0x12,   
                  0x23,0x13,0x08,0x64,0x62,   
                  0x36,0x49,0x55,0x22,0x50,   
                  0x00,0x05,0x03,0x00,0x00,   
                  0x00,0x1c,0x22,0x41,0x00,   
                  0x00,0x41,0x22,0x1c,0x00,   
                  0x14,0x08,0x3e,0x08,0x14,   
                  0x08,0x08,0x3e,0x08,0x08,   
                  0x00,0x50,0x30,0x00,0x00,   
                  0x08,0x08,0x08,0x08,0x08,   
                  0x00,0x60,0x60,0x00,0x00, 
                  0x20,0x10,0x08,0x04,0x02,   
                  0x3e,0x51,0x49,0x45,0x3e, 
                  0x00,0x42,0x7f,0x40,0x00, 
                  0x42,0x61,0x51,0x49,0x46, 
                  0x21,0x41,0x45,0x4b,0x31, 
                  0x18,0x14,0x12,0x7f,0x10, 
                  0x27,0x45,0x45,0x45,0x39, 
                  0x3c,0x4a,0x49,0x49,0x30, 
                  0x01,0x71,0x09,0x05,0x03, 
                  0x36,0x49,0x49,0x49,0x36, 
                  0x06,0x49,0x49,0x29,0x1e, 
                  0x00,0x36,0x36,0x00,0x00, 
                  0x00,0x56,0x36,0x00,0x00, 
                  0x08,0x14,0x22,0x41,0x00, 
                  0x14,0x14,0x14,0x14,0x14, 
                  0x00,0x41,0x22,0x14,0x08, 
                  0x02,0x01,0x51,0x09,0x06, 
                  0x32,0x49,0x79,0x41,0x3e, 
                  0x7e,0x11,0x11,0x11,0x7e, 
                  0x7f,0x49,0x49,0x49,0x36, 
                  0x3e,0x41,0x41,0x41,0x22, 
                  0x7f,0x41,0x41,0x22,0x1c, 
                  0x7f,0x49,0x49,0x49,0x41, 
                  0x7f,0x09,0x09,0x09,0x01, 
                  0x3e,0x41,0x49,0x49,0x7a, 
                  0x7f,0x08,0x08,0x08,0x7f, 
                  0x00,0x41,0x7f,0x41,0x00, 
                  0x20,0x40,0x41,0x3f,0x01, 
                  0x7f,0x08,0x14,0x22,0x41, 
                  0x7f,0x40,0x40,0x40,0x40, 
                  0x7f,0x02,0x0c,0x02,0x7f, 
                  0x7f,0x04,0x08,0x10,0x7f, 
                  0x3e,0x41,0x41,0x41,0x3e}; 

const unsigned char tablo2 [240] = {
                  0x7f,0x09,0x09,0x09,0x06, 
                  0x3e,0x41,0x51,0x21,0x5e, 
                  0x7f,0x09,0x19,0x29,0x46, 
                  0x46,0x49,0x49,0x49,0x31, 
                  0x01,0x01,0x7f,0x01,0x01, 
                  0x3f,0x40,0x40,0x40,0x3f, 
                  0x1f,0x20,0x40,0x20,0x1f, 
                  0x3f,0x40,0x38,0x40,0x3f, 
                  0x63,0x14,0x08,0x14,0x63, 
                  0x07,0x08,0x70,0x08,0x07, 
                  0x61,0x51,0x49,0x45,0x43, 
                  0x00,0x7f,0x41,0x41,0x00, 
                  0x02,0x04,0x08,0x10,0x20, 
                  0x00,0x41,0x41,0x7f,0x00, 
                  0x04,0x02,0x01,0x02,0x04, 
                  0x40,0x40,0x40,0x40,0x40, 
                  0x00,0x01,0x02,0x04,0x00, 
                  0x20,0x54,0x54,0x54,0x78, 
                  0x7f,0x48,0x44,0x44,0x38, 
                  0x38,0x44,0x44,0x44,0x20, 
                  0x38,0x44,0x44,0x48,0x7f, 
                  0x38,0x54,0x54,0x54,0x18, 
                  0x08,0x7e,0x09,0x01,0x02, 
                  0x0c,0x52,0x52,0x52,0x3e, 
                  0x7f,0x08,0x04,0x04,0x78, 
                  0x00,0x44,0x7d,0x40,0x00, 
                  0x20,0x40,0x44,0x3d,0x00, 
                  0x7f,0x10,0x28,0x44,0x00, 
                  0x00,0x41,0x7f,0x40,0x00, 
                  0x7c,0x04,0x18,0x04,0x78, 
                  0x7c,0x08,0x04,0x04,0x78, 
                  0x38,0x44,0x44,0x44,0x38, 
                  0x7c,0x14,0x14,0x14,0x08, 
                  0x08,0x14,0x14,0x18,0x7c, 
                  0x7c,0x08,0x04,0x04,0x08, 
                  0x48,0x54,0x54,0x54,0x20, 
                  0x04,0x3f,0x44,0x40,0x20, 
                  0x3c,0x40,0x40,0x20,0x7c, 
                  0x1c,0x20,0x40,0x20,0x1c, 
                  0x3c,0x40,0x30,0x40,0x3c, 
                  0x44,0x28,0x10,0x28,0x44, 
                  0x0c,0x50,0x50,0x50,0x3c, 
                  0x44,0x64,0x54,0x4c,0x44, 
                  0x00,0x08,0x36,0x41,0x00, 
                  0x00,0x00,0x7f,0x00,0x00, 
                  0x00,0x41,0x36,0x08,0x00, 
                  0x06,0x09,0x06,0x00,0x00, 
                  0x78,0x46,0x41,0x46,0x78}; 

void nokia_init(unsigned int8 temp)
{
  output_high(nok_dc);
  output_high(nok_sce);
  delay_us(200);

  output_low(nok_res);
  delay_ms(10); 
  output_high(nok_res);       

  nokia_write_command(0x21); 
  nokia_write_command(0xC8); 
  nokia_write_command(temp); //0x13 temperaturni koeficijent 
  nokia_write_command(0x20);                         
  nokia_write_command(0x09); 
  delay_ms(50);

  nokia_clean_ddram();   
  delay_ms(10);

  nokia_write_command(0x08);
  delay_ms(10);

  nokia_write_command(0x0C);
}

void nokia_clean_ddram(void)
{
  int16 ddram;
  nokia_gotoxy(0,0);           
  for(ddram=0; ddram<504; ddram++)
      nokia_write_data(0x00);
}

void nokia_write_command(char nokia_command)
{
  output_low(nok_dc);
  output_low(nok_sce);
  nokia_write_byte(nokia_command);
  output_high(nok_sce);
}

void nokia_write_data(char nokia_data)
{
  output_high(nok_dc);
  output_low(nok_sce);
  nokia_write_byte(nokia_data);
  output_high(nok_sce);
}

void nokia_write_byte(char bytefornokia) 
{
  char i;
  for(i=8;i>0;i--)
  {
      output_low(nok_sclk);
      delay_us(2);
      if((bytefornokia & 0x80)==0)
        output_low(nok_sdin);
      else
        output_high(nok_sdin);
      output_high(nok_sclk);
      delay_us(2);
        bytefornokia = bytefornokia << 1;
      }
}

void nokia_gotoxy(char xnokia,char ynokia)
{
  nokia_write_command(0x40|(ynokia & 0x07));
  nokia_write_command(0x80|(xnokia & 0x7F));
}

void nokia_contrast(char contrast)
{
  nokia_write_command(0x21);               
  nokia_write_command(0x80 | contrast);     
  nokia_write_command(0x20);               
}


void nokia_print(char charsel)
{
  char char_row,charpos,chardata;
 
  if (charsel<0x20) return;
  if (charsel>0x7f) return;

  for(char_row=0;char_row<5;char_row++)
  {
      if(charsel<0x50)   
      {
        charpos=(((charsel&0xff)-0x20)*5);
        chardata=tablo1[(charpos+char_row)];
      }
      if(charsel>0x4f) 
      {
        charpos=(((charsel&0xff)-0x50)*5);
        chardata=tablo2[(charpos+char_row)];
      }

      nokia_write_data(chardata); 
  }
  nokia_write_data(0x00); 
}

void lcdpixel (char x, char y)
{
  char offset, data;

  if (x > 84) return;
  if (y > 48) return;

  offset = y - ((y / 8) * 8);
  data = (0x01 << offset);

  nokia_gotoxy(x, (y/6));
  nokia_write_data(data);
}
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on March 08, 2012, 09:15:45 pm
thanks arhi, gonna try, otherwise 16x2 will be.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on March 09, 2012, 02:47:02 pm
apparently the problem is/was some compiler options, now is working again.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: s7726 on March 20, 2012, 10:50:34 pm
Sorry if this isn't the proper forum for the DP v1.5 of this board.

I just ordered the DP v1.5 SID and I've been looking over the Parts List. It's not exactly clear on some things but I did the best I could to find the appropriate parts.

If someone gets a chance could you look this over? I would like to get it nailed down and make it available to others in place of the existing list.

I ended up looking on mouser. I went with 1% for alot of the resistors because they were cheap anyway. For the Headers I just tacked on a strip of 36 SIL for each line item (You can never have too many). I plan to use 2xSIL out of the extras for the DIL. This might be something to change for throwing it out to the masses.

-Gavin

PS Thanks again Lynn!
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on March 21, 2012, 09:31:23 am
[quote author="s7726"]Sorry if this isn't the proper forum for the DP v1.5 of this board.

I just ordered the DP v1.5 SID and I've been looking over the Parts List. It's not exactly clear on some things but I did the best I could to find the appropriate parts.

If someone gets a chance could you look this over? I would like to get it nailed down and make it available to others in place of the existing list.

I ended up looking on mouser. I went with 1% for alot of the resistors because they were cheap anyway. For the Headers I just tacked on a strip of 36 SIL for each line item (You can never have too many). I plan to use 2xSIL out of the extras for the DIL. This might be something to change for throwing it out to the masses.

-Gavin

PS Thanks again Lynn![/quote]

With what parts are you having difficulties with?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 21, 2012, 02:18:46 pm
click here for the proper forum for the DP's version 1.5 (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3475)

It's exactly the same schematic so debugging, feedback, firmware can be discussed in either topic but for a question tightly related to the DP SID 1.5 as it uses completely different parts then mine gen3 (DP use trough hole and I use mostly smd) you better use the DP's version 1.5 topic :D (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3475)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: s7726 on March 21, 2012, 05:24:14 pm
[quote author="arakis"]With what parts are you having difficulties with?[/quote]

Re posted in the DSID v1.5 topic.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on March 23, 2012, 09:44:02 pm
very good project
there are a version with 3310 lcd?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 24, 2012, 08:18:49 am
it is very simple to adapt firmware to use 3310 instead of 16x2
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on March 24, 2012, 12:18:31 pm
I have a 3310 version, as soon as I get home i upload the firmware
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on March 26, 2012, 12:51:32 pm
So, the firmware is not ultimated, I want to make some changes to make a proper use of the graphic display. As soon I have some time i will.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 26, 2012, 12:56:14 pm
add info on how you connected nokia lcd (what pins etc)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on March 26, 2012, 03:13:59 pm
right, so:
Nokia | SID PCB
---------------------
sclk  |LCD_D4
sda    |LCD_D5
dc    |LCD_D6
cs    |LCD_D7
reset  |LCD_RS
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 27, 2012, 12:52:12 am
I assume you connected nokia lcd trough voltage divider? It's a 3v device and 18f2550 on board work @5V ?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on March 27, 2012, 12:59:55 am
thanks
I will give a try ;)
Could you upload a photo to we see how it looks?

@arhi: I usualy use 2 diodes in series to supply de lcd, and I add a 3k3 resistor in the data lines to limit the current to lcd
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on March 27, 2012, 10:13:32 am
[quote author="arhi"]I assume you connected nokia lcd trough voltage divider? It's a 3v device and 18f2550 on board work @5V ?[/quote]
I don't know what nokia lcd are you talking about, mine based on pcd8544 can work without problems at 5V, so no, im not using anyvoltage divider
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on March 27, 2012, 10:17:03 am
[quote author="ginpb"][quote author="arhi"]I assume you connected nokia lcd trough voltage divider? It's a 3v device and 18f2550 on board work @5V ?[/quote]
I don't know what nokia lcd are you talking about, mine based on pcd8544 can work without problems at 5V, so no, im not using anyvoltage divider[/quote]

nokia 3310 LCD works on 2.7-3V, 5v will fry it, unless you are using some extension board that has a level shifter on it..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on March 27, 2012, 10:34:51 am
datasheet of pcd8544 say the maximum values goes upto 7V, in fact i'm using mine from a long time at 5V an still works, works great. Obviously, normal voltage is 2.7-3.3V.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on March 27, 2012, 10:43:47 am
[quote author="ginpb"]datasheet of pcd8544 say the maximum values goes upto 7V, in fact i'm using mine from a long time at 5V an still works, works great. Obviously, normal voltage is 2.7-3.3V.[/quote]

did you program the controllor for that voltage, cause I think the internal voltage regulators is turned on in 3310 LCDs...the pcd8544 is build for many different LCDs, and could be that the LCD of the 3310 works with 3v only. But then again I seem to be wrong since it is obviously working for you. if you could leave it turned on for a few hours, and report back I would appreciate it. I have many of these buggers laying around, and it would be awesome to have them work at 5V
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on March 27, 2012, 11:10:09 am
I'll leave it turned on for a few hours, and I make you know.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on March 27, 2012, 11:13:20 am
just to make sure we are on the same page,

you took the lcd out from a n 3310, and wired it directly...the 5V are going to the leads on the glass
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on March 27, 2012, 11:18:57 am
yes
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on March 27, 2012, 11:21:16 am
awsome
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 27, 2012, 12:38:02 pm
Well I have fairly extensive experience with nokia 3310 display's and I fried more then 10 of them with 5V 'cause driver works up to 7V. Some will work at 5V and some won't, depending on how lucky you are. 99% of replacement lcd's for 3310 (display's you don't get out of phone but purchase from phone replacement part suppliers) work only @3V and die @5V, ~90% of lcd's in original 3310 work @5V and 100% of 3410 lcd's (identical lcd, identical driver) work @3V only ... so, to be safer and not to be sorry, I always use voltage divider if running a 5V circuit
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on March 27, 2012, 12:43:39 pm
@arakis: Mine is running for 2 hours now and is ok.

@arhi: good to know, i'm lucky then because after i removed from my 3310 i read the datasheet and I attached it to 5V without thinking twice. Good to know that there are displays that doesn't work at 5V, it's possible that they don't run the PCD8455 but a compatible IC?. Now that I have this info I will be more careful with nokia lcds.
thanks for sharing :D

P.S: I did it with more than one, one was a chinese clone I think, really lucky.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 27, 2012, 01:04:51 pm
The ones you pull out of phone in 99% work on 5V, but replacement ones are tricky. When you design product you have to think about both options so always better to make sure and add resistors. It's only few resistors so does not make a big deal, I usually shrink wrap them in lcd cable :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: dev on April 05, 2012, 06:03:07 pm
Hello,
I just bought a hakko (clone?) iron on ebay, and would like to build this driver.
However, I'd like to make it as compact and light as possible, so I'd prefer to use a 60W 19V DC laptop psu instead of 24V AC.
I know that a few posts back it has been mentioned that the DC part was not tested and there might be issues with back EMF (when you turn in on and off) and that PWM you can build up voltage on the heater and burn it...
Is there any feedback on this ?

Also, on the schematic there's a block for a DCDC converter. What voltage is it producing? 3.3V ?

regards
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on April 05, 2012, 06:14:06 pm
the dc/dc converter produces 5V for the PIC, opamps, lcd.
Compact? I don't know if will be more compact, for sure will be lighter. The problem is the soldering irons are designed to work on AC not DC(at least your clone), and  as someone tell some posts before after some time your soldering iron could die. Regarding the EMF issue, i don't know how big is the back EMF, but normally MOSFET have a free-wheeling diode so shouldn't be a problem. Otherwise you can always add an extra diode to prevent any damage.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on April 05, 2012, 11:10:21 pm
The DCDC part on the schematic produces 5V for electronics on board as ginpb said .. if you have external 5V supply you can remove dcdc and just get 5v directly to the electronics ... the DC part of the schematic is not tested at all (nor is supported by the firmware I wrote so far). What is tested on the other hand is operating 2 different soldering irons (one hakko clone and one weller) that are ment to be used with AC 24V that were used with DC 20V and both died after few days (not weeks/months .. DAYS!!). On the hakko clone the heater died completely and on the weller heater broke insulation to the body of the iron so when it reaches some temperature it shorts and the fuse on board turns everything off.

Note that there is no fuse on the schematic!!! I use myself 2 fuses on the wires itself, one I placed on the AC input to the board and other I placed on the heater output (2A both).
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on April 05, 2012, 11:17:03 pm
BTW, there is a DC driven HAKKO clone driver on the market already. You can find it on ebay very cheap 30-40$

for e.g.: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Soldering-Stati ... 6113wt_907 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Soldering-Station-Digital-DC-Controller-for-HAKKO-936-Compatible-907-Iron-Handle-/130620434360?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e6995a7b8#ht_6113wt_907)

someone told me (here or on my blog don't remember) that they tried it and that it works very nice (and do not kill the heater) so it might be faster way for you to get what you need. The ideal power supply for that device is your 19V laptop supply (make sure you have 3A at least)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: dev on April 06, 2012, 12:43:17 am
thanks,

My idea was to build something like that ebay controller.
(I also saw it before, but would prefer to build my own)

You say that irons died after beying used with DC 20V, but were they always connected to DC20v, or were they being temperature controlled via PWM? Did this happen while using your board?

Why does the ebay controller one seem to work?
What is it doing, is it modulating the voltage? using a lower voltage and higher current? or creating an AC signal? (AC would be easy to do with 4 FET's... but on the picture it looks like it's using only one FET... and there's only a small capacitor near the input...)
Does anyone have access to that ebay controller?
Is it possible to get some clear pics of the PCB traces and components ? so that we can figure out what they're doing...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on April 06, 2012, 01:56:56 am
[quote author="dev"]
You say that irons died after beying used with DC 20V, but were they always connected to DC20v, or were they being temperature controlled via PWM? Did this happen while using your board?
[/quote]

PWM, the temp never went over 350C during tests, and no, not my board, some commercial DC pid controller I tried.

[quote author="dev"]
Why does the ebay controller one seem to work?
[/quote]

no clue. Maybe they are using 19V only, maybe I had faulty irons, maybe it's the back emf that's killing the heater and not the electron migration and mine PWM setup didn't have fast enough diode to snubber it.. maybe .. I really have no clue.. I know that setup I tried was using full VIN (20VDC) and was PWM-ing it at 20 kHz, no LF filter after it so the PWM signal was going into heater.... For e.g. my PACE iron also push DC into the heater but there's a HUGE capacitor there so from what I see they push pure filtered DC into the heater and only vary the voltage going in, so it's like DCDC controlled and not PWM controlled. Maybe that solves the back EMF and prevents heater from dying ... what is weird is, in order to get that on 2A heater you need a big capacitor .. and I don't see one on the ebay driver .. maybe if they are doing pwm on some insane frequency like 1 MHz then they could survive with smaller cap's ... donno, really ... I never figured out why those irons died, but I killed 2 and Arakis killed 1 or 2 and the common thing is that we both pushed PWM into heater...

It really depends on what's your goal. If you want to get one driver for your iron, definitively cheapest and safest way is to purchase HAKKO FX988 and just use it :D ... or purchase that ebay driver and use it .. now if you want to learn, need more then one ... I think purchasing that driver from ebay would pay itself out... You can get the schematic easily, the firmware on the onboard mcu is irrelevant that you can write easily when you check what is he doing and how exactly is he driving the heater. I suspect high frequency pwm with some super fast fet and a capacitor to smooth the output out to a DC signal.. but everything is possible ...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on April 06, 2012, 09:47:19 am
Hi, probably the right way to drive a soldering iron using DC power is using and H bridge instead of a single Mosfet. This way half of time the current flows in one direction and the other half in the other direction.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: dev on April 09, 2012, 10:50:43 pm
hello,
thank you for your feedback.

I'm not very pleased with my hakk'lone... it was supposed to be original, but it isn't.. first the plastic on the plug had a crack longitudinally... which cracked completelly the first time I plugged it in...
The heater (which oddly also had a hakko branding) seemed to have a tinny crack right about the middle...
I tested it for a couple minutes.. turned it on and noticed how fast It became hot...
then applied some solder to the tip and turned it off... after a while, the rest of the tip became dark blue !!!
it's chinese cr*p...
ah.. and the letters on the side started to fade out instantly just by handling the iron..

Anyway, I'm not going to buy the ebay DC controller. It's way too expensive and not worth the risk.
(On a local shop I can buy an assembled solder station with a similar iron (female plug) , plus a stand & sponge for <30eur...)

On the other hand, I'm now curious to find alternate ways to run the iron with DC, and I have a few ideas that I'll test soon and hope to share.

Does anyone have an LC meter that can read the L and C of the heater ?
These values would help explain the heater's response to DC pulses.
 
What are the specs of the Temp sensor?
For example, here: http://www.auelectronics.com/forum/inde ... tml#msg512 (http://www.auelectronics.com/forum/index.php/topic,208.msg512.html#msg512)
they show a table with 50ohm@22C which is about the same I measured on my hakk'lone.
but here: http://elco.crsndoo.com/wordpress/2011/ ... -lemilice/ (http://elco.crsndoo.com/wordpress/2011/09/hakko-907-i-kompatibilne-lemilice/)
there's a completely different table that does not seem right...

I assume this is a correct table:
60R 77.6C
70R 134.1C
80R 191.8C
90R 250.2C
100R 310.0C
110R 371.0C
120R 433.0C
130R 496.5C


And to end, has anyone tried to build a barebones controller using hysteresis ? This could be achieved with a couple OpAmps, or even a tweaked 555... and it would turn the iron on/off at certain temp thresholds. It would no be as precise as a microcontroller based device, but still good enough for casual use.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on April 09, 2012, 11:47:45 pm
Yes, you can make the soldering iron controller using just opamps. As i said before, I pretty sure that the right way to drive the heater using DC power is using a H bridge.
I bought a hakko clone on ebay, and it works perfectly. I'm pretty happy with it.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on April 10, 2012, 07:14:04 am
wrt temp table, look at comments on http://elco.crsndoo.com (http://elco.crsndoo.com) site and you will find another table. The table actually depends on the clone, I so far have 4 different tables for 4 different clones.

As for simple hysteresis drive, use original hakko 936 schematic, only instead of final NEC optocoupler with op-amp input and triak output some op-amp and FET to turn power on/off.

As for the LCR
F = 1 kHz: Cs = 14 mF, Ls = 1.8uH
F = 20 kHz: Cs = 48uF, Ls = 1.3uH
F = 100kHz: Cs = 2.1uF, Ls = 1.2uH

So the inductance is between 1.2 and 2 micro Henri's.

(this is measured on Gordak clone, don't have original with me)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: dev on April 10, 2012, 11:52:18 pm
thanks arhi

I simulated the behavior of the iron, while under pulsed DC, but nothing strange appears to happen...
is this schematic right?
(on the left is a pulsed DC source, with a current limiting resistor; and on the right, is the "model" of the iron's heater R + L + C, only I'm not sure this is right or not.)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on April 15, 2012, 04:19:03 pm
14mF is an insanely high value, I think it could have been a typo by arhi.

Sure the simulation works fine, and I had a Solomon soldering iron, being driven via 30+v PWM work perfectly for a year. but when I connected a Weller PES51 it died withing a few days...

only way to be sure it will work is to get a cheap clone and drive it wit PWM...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on April 15, 2012, 04:56:59 pm
Remove the C1 completely. It's not really possible to measure capacitance of a resistor so you get weird values (like 14mF for piece of resistance wire). I was not thinking straight when I was typing in the values, it's only R1+L1
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Erl on April 15, 2012, 11:16:29 pm
Hi y'all,

I just found this project. Very interesting!

I'm working on a hobby project that will be a bench top power supply, multimeter and soldering station all in one. I'll be using two ADuC 7060 or 7061 microcontrollers because they have built in 24 bit ADCs, and I want to be able to measure and integrate low currents (uA) to measure power use for low energy battery driven projects.

I had planned to drive my soldering iron (from a soldering station which seems identical to the Velleman VTSSC40N, like this:(URL removed because system thought it looked spammy)) with DC, but reading this forum taught me DC will leda to electromigration & destruction of the iron. I'll redesign my circuit to use an H-bridge. I'm using a 24V laptop brick as a power supply.

I'll try to measure the heating signal to my iron in the coming days. It has 4 pins, and I believe 2 are thermocouple, and 2 are to the heating element.

Cheers,

Erland
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Erl on April 17, 2012, 10:39:28 pm
[quote author="Erl"]
I had planned to drive my soldering iron (from a soldering station which seems identical to the Velleman VTSSC40N, like this:(URL removed because system thought it looked spammy)) with DC, but reading this forum taught me DC will leda to electromigration & destruction of the iron. I'll redesign my circuit to use an H-bridge. I'm using a 24V laptop brick as a power supply.

I'll try to measure the heating signal to my iron in the coming days. It has 4 pins, and I believe 2 are thermocouple, and 2 are to the heating element.
[/quote]

I measured the signal today, it was 0V with AC sine wave pulses (positive and negative).

/Erland
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ginpb on April 17, 2012, 11:19:35 pm
can you post now the removed link from your previous post.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on April 18, 2012, 07:03:37 am
VTSSC40N iron looks identical to solomon, so I believe it is solomon (looks identical, uses identical tips, and solomon is the largest oem producer of soldering equipment) ... it has thermocouple sensor right? Arakis was running his solomon handle for a while on DC with PWM without any problems.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on April 18, 2012, 08:45:19 am
yups it was ~30-35V PWM DC to be exact, but I never pushed it past 50% duty cycle. if you use 24VDC you can run it at 100% no problems..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Erl on April 18, 2012, 10:59:52 pm
[quote author="ginpb"]can you post now the removed link from your previous post.[/quote]

Let me try; here it is: http://http://www.kjell.com/sortiment/el/verktyg/lodning/lodstationer/lodstation-med-lcd-p40255

I managed to buy some connectors for the soldering iron, they were not easy to find, let me know if anyone wants that info.

It has a ceramic heating element, I wonder if that might make it less susceptible to electromigration (failure when driven with DC) than other irons? What are the benefits of ceramic heating elements, by the way?

Yes, the iron has a thermocouple in it.

/Erland
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on April 19, 2012, 09:59:45 am
could be, the Weller that died, had a wire wound element embedded in some paste, the heater was on the inside wall of a pipe, could be that ceramic elements like in the solomon, or Hakko are safer. (
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: heychris on April 25, 2012, 08:28:01 am
Hey,

I've been following along as I've been thinking the same things.  I'm getting ready to build my own iron. A few months ago I bought a Atten at201D.  I though you might be interested to hear about it's connections.  The hand piece looked identical to the 907Esd.  Taking it apart showed it to be nothing like.  It has a single element with no temperature sensor.  I suppose it was foolish to think the digital display of "actual temperature" meant that there was a temperature sensor.  I figure it must be programmed into the PIC chip to show the ramp up and down.  I was replacing my hand piece so  rewired it to match the 5 pin output.  The output has the positive was connected to pin 4 and 5.  The negative pin 1 and pin 2.  The 5th pin is a ground.  I rewired my 907ESD to match that arrangement.  When I plugged in my 907ESD, the fuse popped.  When I replace the fuse I'll have to test the output.

I guess you don't know what your buying unless you make it yourself.

Another interesting think is the coil inside steps down 110V to 29V instead of 24V.  I
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on April 25, 2012, 09:57:17 am
the heater and the sensor are the same thing, in these hakko clones, are you saying yours only has 2 wires, insted of four?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: heychris on April 25, 2012, 03:14:30 pm
My atten at201d has a 5 pin connector as you would expect.  The sensor pins are wired to the heater + and - on the inside of the station.  The hand piece itself only has 3 wires

The same seller advertises a 938D that clearly mentions having a 2 core element.  If you look at the photo of the spare element it only has 2 wires.

Sorry I can't post the link from ebay.  You can find it at "ATTEN SOLDERING STATION AT938D 60W Digital Thermo-control LEAD FREE NEW"  Item number: 150673322408

Since there is no temp sensor.  I have to assume it's making up the actual temp.  Would you agree?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on April 25, 2012, 03:20:11 pm
No, they are not making up the actual temp, they are measuring resistance of the heater to sense the temperature of the heater. It is very common way of sensing temperature. The only thing is - this is not compatible neither with this driver (this thread) nor with original/clone HAKKO irons.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: heychris on April 26, 2012, 02:56:08 am
Cool..  Thanks for setting me straight.  I had a feeling you'd know.

I hope the board/kit becomes available.  Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on April 26, 2012, 03:05:13 am
[quote author="heychris"]I hope the board/kit becomes available.  Keep up the good work.[/quote]

watch out for them here on Dangerous Soldering Iron driver V1.5(based on Arhi's gen3) (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3475) topic as I will not continue to develop this project. It arrived to "works for me" stage and all the files are out and open, if anyone wanna hack it, go for it. DP will probably make some kit or at least some pcb's available so .. I will be here for any support I can give but some further development (some nice gui, more options, better pcb's ..) is something I leave to you guy's :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: bench2012 on April 26, 2012, 05:54:08 pm
HI,

Thanks for the good work. Hope to see more project from you.

Cheers!

Bench
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on May 15, 2012, 07:05:42 pm
I built the DP soldering iron driver v1.5 and am in the process of debugging. I set the trim resistors for a current of 1ma and a reading of 3.00V using a 100ohm resistor. I placed a jumper selecting the PTC-- I am using a Hakko handle. When I heat the tip using a lighter, the voltage on the temperature pin (measured at the jumper) starts rising so I know the PTC amplifier section is functioning correctly-- the voltage starts at 1.6 and goes up to about 2 and drops again as the tip cools. The PIC is programmed with the latest firmware and seems to be working somewhat correctly-- I get the splash screen with

SID $Rev: 227
elco.crsndoo.com

Then things don't go well. The LCD displays
Target: blah, blah
Current: blah, blah (the numbers look to be 16 bit integers rather than temperature range numbers and they don't change).

I connected to the serial header to help figure out what is going on and this is what I got. There is a lot more but looks similar.

127.2580,-29952.0000,2147483647.-2147473649,37.7419,-2147483648.-2147483648,0.0000,2.0030,2147483647.-2147473649,2147483647.-2147473649,2147483647.-2147473649,100
127.5280,-29952.0000,2147483647.-2147473649,38.0645,-2147483648.-2147483648,0.0000,2.0030,2147483647.-2147473649,2147483647.-2147473649,2147483647.-2147473649,100

The third column is supposed to be measuredTemperature and it does not change at all with heating/cooling of the tip. The fourth column (NTC CALCULATED TIP TEMP) does vary a bit.

Is the firmware reading the NTC temp (which is not populated) rather than the PTC temp at RA0/AN0? I am in the process of grokking the firmware. Is there a flag setting to select the proper temperature source? I take it that the EEPROM variables are not set correctly. Will a calibration take care of this?

Another observation is that the 3rd, 5th, 8th, 9th, 10th columns (measuredTemp, Pk, PTerm,ITerm,DTerm) have numbers that don't format properly. I take it this all stems from the measuredTemp not being correctly measured/calculated.

Thanks to all involved. Peter
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 16, 2012, 01:48:05 am
The serial data is
Seconds since start, target temperature, measured temperature, NTC temperature, Pk, Ik, Dl, PTerm, ITerm, DTerm, PWM

The output you sent look messed up :(

I will check the source in the morning and upload the latest hex with defaults set for for hakko handle.

Question - can you enter the menu? Try to enter calibration menu and select RTD HAKKO. APPLY and SAVE changes and reboot the iron after that.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on May 16, 2012, 08:58:41 am
Thank you for taking the time to help me troubleshoot this. The debug test was garbled in the forum reply. Here it is again:

Code: [Select]
127.2580,-29952.0000,2147483647.-2147473649,37.7419,-2147483648.-2147483648,0.0000,2.0030,2147483647.-2147473649,2147483647.-2147473649,2147483647.-2147473649,100
127.5280,-29952.0000,2147483647.-2147473649,38.0645,-2147483648.-2147483648,0.0000,2.0030,2147483647.-2147473649,2147483647.-2147473649,2147483647.-2147473649,100

It should display properly now but as you can see, several of the numbers don't print properly. I think because they don't represent proper floating point numbers. So columns 3, 5, 8, 9, and 10 (measuredTemp, Pk, PTerm,ITerm,DTerm) are messed up, i.e. the third column value is 2147483647.-2147473649 and there are a correct number of comma delimited items.

I initially had a quadrature encoder hooked up and the encoder firmware loaded and could not enter the menu. I loaded the button firmware and could sort of enter the menu. I say sort of because I used a wire to pull down the appropriate pins to ground using a wire. I could sometimes enter the menu by grounding the button pin and increase/decrease the values for menu item 4 (init temp). It was a large negative value around -3000. I increased it to about -2000 when it went back to around -3000.  I could not reliably step through the menu commands to select calibration. There appeared to be a lot of noise on the pins even though they were pulled up with 10K resistors. For example, when I tried to confirm that the pins were pulled up to 5V using a high impedance voltmeter, the 18f2550 registered a button press and  entered the menu function. This didn't happen every time but every couple of tries it would work. I will try again with better/real switches but I think that the pins might not be behaving correctly.

Once again, thanks for your help.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 16, 2012, 09:27:49 am
The problem with floats not being shown correctly is function that prints them ain't perfect.

Code: [Select]
void sendFloat(float x){
  long int lPart;
  long int rPart;
  lPart = (long int) x;
  rPart = (long int)( x * 10000.0)-lPart*10000;
  fprintf(_H_USART,  (const far rom char*)"%li.%04li,", lPart,rPart);
}

For it to display 2147483647.-2147473649, lpart is 2147483647 so when you *10000 it goes out of 32bit size, now how the hell it calculated 2147483647 in the first place for measured temp beats me :D

I see you have 39C for the NTC temp. Does this mean that you attached some NTC to the NTC connector?

Now, all you need to do is enter menu and select HAKKO RTD in calibration. What PCB are you using? The fully trough hole one DP designed or half smd one I made? If you are using mine, remove C1-C5 (just don't populate them) and replace R6-R10 with shorts. I replaced my original design with 7414 to copy this one from DP as it was supposed to be cheaper, but it ended up not working.

If you are using DP's version (100% trough hole) I think Filip already fixed the problem and removed capacitors and resistors but I'm not 100% sure.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on May 16, 2012, 10:09:41 am
I built the through-hole DP version 1.5. No capacitors or series resistors, only the 10K pullups on the button/encoder inputs. As for the NTC, it is not populated. The value is probably due a floating input  at the op-amp for the NTC amplifier-- I did not include the pull-up resistor at the non-inverting input and it is already in a unity gain follower configuration on the PCB, ie output tied to inverting input.

Will try troubleshooting the button issue. I didn't understand the 7414 part-- did you put a Schmitt trigger between the buttons and the PIC inputs to cut down on noise? That didn't work? I take it the inputs are not debounced in software.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 16, 2012, 11:17:18 am
I was using schmitt yes, that's why there's no software debouncing in the firmware. That worked but DP suggested the solution with resistors and capacitors so I replaced the 74hc14 with those and it didn't work :( ... I myself use a small panel board with buttons and encoder that has 74hc14 on it so I do not have the problem but I should add debouncing in firmware too, it's just that I don't have time to deal with it now .. if you have 74xx14 you can use it to debounce the input and solve the prob in hw
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 20, 2012, 04:24:55 am
I caught few minutes so here's the updated HEX (for using buttons, not encoder) with software debouncing.

the only change in source is in the 2 isr functions in main.c and it's very simple, any interrupts that come faster then 250ms are ignored :D so plenty of time for debouncing. I prefer 100ms to 250ms but I put 250ms as it will work with bad switches too :)

FIXED CODE:

hardware.h
Code: [Select]
#define DEBOUNCE_TIME 200

and main.c
Code: [Select]
#pragma code
#pragma interruptlow low_isr

void low_isr(void) {
    static unsigned long int debounce = 0;
    unsigned long int isr_started = millis;


    if (INTCON3bits.INT1IF) { //ENC1 rising edge
        if (isr_started - debounce > DEBOUNCE_TIME) {

#ifdef USE_ENCODER
            if (PIN_E2) {
                if (encoder > encoderMIN) encoder--;
            } else {
                if (encoder < encoderMAX) encoder++;
            }
#else
            if (encoder > encoderMIN) encoder--;
#endif
            changed = 1;
        }
        INTCON3bits.INT1IF = 0;
    } else if (INTCON3bits.INT2IF) { //ENC2 rising edge
        if (isr_started - debounce > DEBOUNCE_TIME) {

#ifdef USE_ENCODER
#ifndef DETENT_DOUBLE
            if (PIN_E1) {
                if (encoder < encoderMAX) encoder++;
            } else {
                if (encoder > encoderMIN) encoder--;
            }
            changed = 1;
#endif
#else
            if (encoder < encoderMAX) encoder++;
            changed = 1;
#endif
        }
        INTCON3bits.INT2IF = 0;
    } else if (PIR1bits.TMR2IF) {
            millis += 2;
            if (((menu < 10) || (menu > 12)) && (starting != 1) && (measuredTemperature > TOOHOT)) while (1) heaterOFF();
            if (++heaterPos > maxHeaterPos) heaterPos = 0;
            if (heaterPos >= pwmValue) {
                heaterOFF();
            } else {
                heaterON();
            }
        PIR1bits.TMR2IF = 0;
    }

    debounce = isr_started;
}

#pragma code
#pragma interrupt high_isr

void high_isr(void) {
    static unsigned long int debounce = 0;
    unsigned long int isr_started = millis;

    if (INTCONbits.INT0IF) {
        if (isr_started - debounce > DEBOUNCE_TIME) menu++;
        INTCONbits.INT0IF = 0;
    }
    debounce = isr_started;
}

Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on May 22, 2012, 06:06:39 am
Ahri,
I tried the hex file you sent-- it gives a "ERROR: WD0001" I tried changing the WD timer prescaler to 1:8192 but still gives the same error-- after a longer time of course.

I tried copying/pasting your changes (fix 8-?) to the source code and same problem-- ERROR: WD0001.

I will actually try reading the changes and see if I can find out what is going on.

Peter
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 22, 2012, 01:15:05 pm
here's fixed version, this one should work

problem was that I encompassed too much of the isr routine with debouncing if() :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 22, 2012, 10:48:37 pm
I moved SVN to SourceForge (http://http://sid.crsndoo.com/)

To get source (mplabx project):
Code: [Select]
svn co https://arhimed-sid.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/arhimed-sid arhimed-sid 

To get latest "binaries" (pdf's for pcb, hex and cof for mcu): http://sourceforge.net/projects/arhimed-sid/files (http://sourceforge.net/projects/arhimed-sid/files)

Web page is super ugly, and is missing many informations ... if anyone wish to donate better web page - feel free :)

If you think I'm missing something on that page (link to some DP resource..) please send me pm with the info :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on May 23, 2012, 06:45:56 am
Ahri,
Tried the latest firmware you posted. The watchdog error is fixed. The debouncing for the button works but the up and down buttons don't work at all. I can now enter into the menu and step through the items (1 through 6) one at a time but can't change anything because the other buttons don't work.
Peter
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 23, 2012, 12:31:13 pm
there are only 3 buttons, menu, + and - (or menu, encoder1, encoder2). What "other buttons" ? when you enter the menu, you click on menu button to select option (I apologize for posting untested sw, all my sid boards are in the workshop and I'm at home these days)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on May 23, 2012, 01:54:24 pm
Thanks Ahri,
I guess I was using the terminology from the DP V1.5 board where the menu, + and - buttons are labeled EB, E1, E2. The menu button works and is debounced. The + and - buttons do nothing. They would increase and decrease some values in the previous firmware. Another issue I have is that the initial values for the P, I, D, values are set wrong-- they are set to 0.000, 0,000, and 2.004. Looking at the EEPROM, only the first 10 bytes are non-FF: the P, I, and D and two more bytes. I am wondering if my PIC programmer (the program, not the hardware) is not reading the hex files correctly. It does program the EEPROM correctly because if I copy the 3rd float into the first and second, the initial PID values all become 2.004.

This means that one of my problems is that the EEPROM data is not correct-- leading to the crazy debug data I posted earlier. I will try changing the EEPROM data by hand to see if that fixes the problem.
Peter
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 23, 2012, 02:01:04 pm
weird ... I'll try to check the firmware locally on some board, I left all my boards in workshop...

as for eeprom, it should work ok, but if it doesn't, you should be able to set and store those values easily when you get your buttons working :)

btw, have you tried pressing the +/- buttons "longer" ?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on May 23, 2012, 02:26:10 pm
One thought is that perhaps the hex file is for an encoder input rather than for buttons? Is this selected by #defining USE_ENCODER (or not) in the main.c file? Do you expect the debounce code will work with an encoder?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 23, 2012, 03:39:17 pm
wrt eeprom values, the source has:

Code: [Select]

#pragma romdata pid_values=0xf00000
rom float pid_values[] = {
  3.500,                                //Initial P value
  1.875,                                //Initial I value
  3.250                                  //Initial D value
};

#pragma romdata startup_temp=0xf0000C
rom signed int startup_temp[] = { 20 };      // Initial start temp value (/5)

#pragma romdata sleep_temp=0xf0000E
rom signed int sleep_temp[] = { 300 };        // Sleep temp value (times 2)

#pragma romdata boost_temp=0xf00010
rom signed int boost_temp[] = { 800 };        // Boost temp value (times 2)

#pragma romdata backglight_value=0xf00012
rom signed int backglight_value[] = { 50 };  // backglight value 0-100

#pragma romdata calibration_data=0xf00014
rom float calibration_data[] = {
      0.75,                                  // SLOPE  (HAKKO ORIGINAL)
    -207.00                                  // OFFSET (HAKKO ORIGINAL)
};

when you load hex it should show proper values. Float is 32bits in C18, so P=3.50 should be first 4 bytes.
0x00 0x00 0x60 0x40 = 0b00000000 00000000 01100000 01000000
so:
EXP    = 01000000
byte0 = 01100000
byte1 = 00000000
byte2 = 00000000

Sign is 0
Exponent is 1
Mantissa is 1.11 (1+2^-1+2^-2 = 1.75)

2^1 * 1.75 = 3.5

so I'd say eeprom has proper values ... (as expected as it's put there directly by c18)

Now, it is possible that there's actually a bug in C18 here as I read in C18 lib that C18 stores floats different from IEE754 so it's not that exponent byte holds the sign and byte0 holds the 8th bit of the exponent (as we properly see here in the eeprom) but byte0 holds the sign while exp is a 8bit value of exponent. If this is true then C18 has a serious bug ..

What's worse, DS51297F-page 158 show that float is stored:
± e7 e6 e5 e4 e3 e2 e1 e0 d0 d1 d2 d3  · · · d23
and this coincides with what we see in eeprom

but, DS51288A-page 10 show that differently from normal IEE754 C18 stores floats as:
 e0 e1 e2 e3 e4 e5 e6 e7 ± d0 d1 d2 d3  · · · d23

Now if this is true then we have a case where C18 stored one format in eeprom and is reading another format .. that does not make sense to me but since I can't test it attm ..

What do you read from hex? Are you sure you enabled your programmer to write to eeprom (by default that might be off)?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 23, 2012, 03:40:12 pm
[quote author="pjkim"]One thought is that perhaps the hex file is for an encoder input rather than for buttons? Is this selected by #defining USE_ENCODER (or not) in the main.c file? Do you expect the debounce code will work with an encoder?[/quote]

yes, if USE_ENCODER is defined buttons are handled as encoder input, if not defined they are handled as buttons ..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on May 23, 2012, 10:55:35 pm
Programming the correct EEPROM data sure helped a lot. When I started the SID, the display was a menu that I had never seen before to select and calibrate the temp sensor. Unfortunately, the + and minus buttons still don't work. Once I exit this screen, the numbers on the main screen make sense and are related to reality. The "current temp" is actually measuring the PTC in the Hakko handle, ~38 at room temp (no it is not that hot in reality). When I hold a flame to the tip, the temperature rises appropriately-- I took it up to 190 deg. The "set temp" is 5 so the iron doesn't turn on right now.

I am going to try an older version without debouncing to see if everything else is working correctly with the corrected EEPROM. If things work with the pre-debounce firmware, I think that the debouncing fix might have mangled the + and - buttons.

I also need to troubleshoot the triac part of the circuit-- I don't think it is turning on properly. Separate problem from above.

Will keep you posted.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 23, 2012, 11:36:19 pm
As I said, I tested it on a pcb just now and it works perfectly with debouncing routine. Check your buttons, maybe you lost ground connection (buttons are pulled up with resistors and your buttons should push them down to ground). Also, please check exactly what pins buttons are connected to, it could be that Filip messed something up copying the schematic, or I changed something later on (iirc you are using DP's version of the board) so make sure

EB (menu button) should be pin 21 (RB0)
E1 (encoder 1) should be pin 22 (RB1)
E2 (encoder 2) should be pin 23 (RB2)

There are 2 additional inputs for buttons on pins 11 and 12 that firmware for now ignores.

So please check if your button is pushing RB1 and RB2 to gnd when you press + and - buttons, as latest firmware must work (the latest one from sourceforge, I will attach it to this message too (http://http://sid.crsndoo.com/))

As for the room temperature, the firmware is set to read temperature from specific NTC so if one is not connected .. or if wrong one is connected the temp will be off. I use 204-GT NTC and the source comes with a table for it. If you want to use another NTC you have to change the table in main.c to get correct values for NTC. Note that NTC is not important for you if you are using HAKKO handle.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 23, 2012, 11:39:25 pm
p.s. note that REV's are now smaller since I moved the project to sourceforge, it's because I used single repo locally for many projects, I moved to sourceforge just this one and renumbered revisions so we are on rev 32 or 33 now :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 25, 2012, 03:38:37 am
rev34 now supports bootloader (more here: viewtopic.php?f=56&t=3269&p=40918#p40918 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=3269&p=40918#p40918) )

I removed the "-latest" on the hex files on sourceforge and replaced -latest with r34 (release), so you can get hex directly and know what release it is without having to compile it yourself.

If someone who built SID have a few moments, I'd appreciate a review on https://sourceforge.net/projects/arhimed-sid/reviews/ (https://sourceforge.net/projects/arhimed-sid/reviews/)

(yes I know .. but ..  :D )
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on May 26, 2012, 11:09:40 am
Tried the new firmware. Didn't go particularly smoothly but eventually got things working. The bootloader file you sent didn't work for me-- the OS never recognized the board or I couldn't get it to go into bootloader mode. I pressed reset (bring MCLR low), tied PGC to PGC (method used in the diolan bootloader) but could not get bootloader mode. I flashed the bootloader for the LCD backpack-- which you have to compile yourself after editing the PID and VID codes in usb_desc.inc. After flashing the bootloader, I could not enter bootloader and the USB device was enumerated on my computer. I followed the instructions for flashing the firmware and it worked (sort of). I say sort of because the EEPROM values were again corrupted. The PID values were all really off. I tried changing them using the menu but that was a non-starter -- the starting value was 32.124, my target was 3.500 and I was stepping by 0.001 per button press (no repeat) and debounced to 0.2 seconds. Would have required 28624 button presses or over an hour and a half at 5 presses per second! I used my JDM PIC programmer to burn only the correct EEPROM values and then things were good. A bit round about but things work.

Any idea why I am having the same problem programming the EEPROM using a serial PIC programmer and a bootloader?

Here is a pic of my board and the case I cut for it.
(http://http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HaAfn9K5Bgk/T8CaseH8DnI/AAAAAAAAASk/I98lVX7m5uU/s320/SID+PCB.jpg)
(http://http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-I0QuO43gQ_w/T8CatOWK3aI/AAAAAAAAASs/D7zkCHXqzp4/s320/SID+front+view.jpg)

The LCD works, the iron gets hot and I can solder stuff with it! What do you call the first functioning of a soldering iron? First solder? First smoke? First joint?

Will have a more thorough writeup and more pics on my blog soon. And thank you Arhi and Arakis. And Ian too.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 26, 2012, 11:33:34 am
do you mind if I add this pictures to the project "screenshots" ?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 26, 2012, 11:49:03 am
[quote author="pjkim"]Tried the new firmware. Didn't go particularly smoothly but eventually got things working.[/quote]

I didn't use diolan earlier, I put hex that I used myself, now, it behaves kinda weird, sometimes bootloader loads, sometimes don't ... but in anyhow hex for the SID don't really have anything to do with bootloader, so you can compile whatever diolan bootloader you like and .... I also could not get diolan's fw_update to run from linux .. something weird ... anyhow I'm not really a big fun of bootloaders on the projects like this one, you get way more control using pickit

[quote author="pjkim"]I say sort of because the EEPROM values were again corrupted. [/quote]

When you attach pickit and read values (after you update firmware with bootloader) does the eeprom show values that I posted on that picture?

[quote author="pjkim"]Any idea why I am having the same problem programming the EEPROM using a serial PIC programmer and a bootloader?
[/quote]

no clue ... what I did notice is that by default fw_update does not update eeprom at all, there's
Code: [Select]
-m -memory  <MEMMORY TYPE>
Memory type for read, write and verify operations.
Possible values: flash, eeprom, id, all.
Default: flash

so if you do not specify -m all diolan will only update flash (eeprom should stay untouched but .. who knows)

also it's weird that using direct programming you have this issues too .. maybe it's something wrt your programmer? I use pickit2 for this 18F chips, never had a problem.

[quote author="pjkim"]And thank you Arhi and Arakis. And Ian too.[/quote]

thank you for debugging it :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on May 26, 2012, 12:15:29 pm
[quote author="arhi"]do you mind if I add this pictures to the project "screenshots" ?[/quote]
Please feel free.
[quote author="arhi"]When you attach pickit and read values (after you update firmware with bootloader) does the eeprom show values that I posted on that picture?[/quote]
After I used the bootloader, the values I read were not correct but not FF so they must have been changed. They were burned previously using my serial JDM programmer with the correct values.

I was not aware of the default behavior of fw_update programming only the flash. I will try turning on the EEPROM option to see if this fixes things.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 26, 2012, 12:56:28 pm
obviously some experience with diolan and fw_update is required :D so please keep us posted on the progress :)

What worries me is that your JDM sometimes put wrong data in the eeprom .. maybe it has to do with application? What kind of app you use with it? Does it show you (like pickit2 sw for e.g.) what will be the content of the ram, eprom..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on May 28, 2012, 10:53:17 am
Fantastic build. I'm really glad to see these coming online. That for testing and sharing.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: TitanMKD on May 29, 2012, 07:24:33 pm
Hi,

I'm very interested in Soldering Iron Board but my need are a bit different,
I have hacked(disabled thermostat because it stop at 190°C instead of 250°C) a Hot Plate to use it for PCB Reflow Soldering.
I use my Extech EX330 in T°C Probe mode with a PT Probe to measure temperature and at 230°C I switch off the Power (to reach about 240°C), and I will like to add an automatic mode with Reflow Profile integrated and I think I could use the Soldering Iron with some modifications to add Reflow Profile (loaded from an EEPROM ...).
The requirement are accurate PID with Relay 240V max 16A (in fact it's 2000W max).
I will like also a CMS version of the Soldering Iron PCB to have a little board in order to even integrate it in the Hot Plate.

Do you think it will require minor modification ?

Best Regards

Benjamin
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 29, 2012, 08:11:24 pm
what is CMS version?

As for the "lot of minor" modification, donno. Mine plan was to make SID first and then to make a separate controller for the reflow oven / hot plate. For reflow oven I want graphics LCD so that I can show the profile and monitor where we are currently during the process and compare with profile set. I also want to be able to load profiles on SD/MMC card, to be able to edit them on PC, I want USB connection etc etc etc so mine plan was
 - pic32mx or dspic
 - usb host (so you can push files from PC to oven via usb directly without frisbee net)
 - graphics lcd
 - lot stronger power (basically bigger triac with proper cooling)
 - 2 controls (fan and heater)
 - 2 measurement points (both thermocouple)

In theory you could hack SID, there's few extra pin where you can attach MMC and then read data from the MMC and control everything, problem is that you reaaaaaly want to be able to real time monitor data on some lcd. I already have lcd's I will be using for this project (thanks to Sjaak I now have good and cheap lcd's chosen, my initial selection was terrible - I will also use these for mine other project - dual stage electronic load)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: TitanMKD on May 29, 2012, 09:14:01 pm
CMS is french sorry it means SMD (surface mounted device).

About your project it is exactly what I want and PIC32MX seems also very good choice (I have some spare chip).
2 Measurement points is also a very good idea and the LCD is just a must !!
Could you contact me when you will have some schematic+board ready for a prototype ?
I'm also very interested by good shop to buy cheap and good LCD.

Best Regards
Benjamin
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 29, 2012, 09:36:18 pm
I will post the whole project here on DP when I start it, no worries. It's just that attm I'm super busy and it will last for another ~30-45 days after which I should have free time (and space) to work on that project
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on May 31, 2012, 09:06:28 pm
Still working out some quirks in my soldering iron driver. I am having an intermittent problem with the firmware becoming corrupted requiring reflashing of the firmware (bootloader remains intact and functional fortunately). I posted this to the Diolan bootloader forum because I thought it might be a bootloader issue. http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=3269&start=45#p41137

Another issue is that on some power-ons, the soldering iron goes into calibration mode. Looking at the code, it looks like this is caused by this bit of code
Code: [Select]
    while ((measuredTemperature > TOOHOT) || (measuredTemperature < 0)){
        //Calibration is wrong or no hand piece is attached
        //so start calibration function before we continue
        menu = 7;
        encoder = 1;
        runMenu(); //start calibration procedure
        targetTemperature = 100;
    }
For some reason, the first measuredTemperature is out of range. If I press reset, the driver works correctly. If I press menu through the calibration, but don't save/apply changes, the target temp is 100 and I have to set to the desired temp.

Possibilities for the incorrect measuredTemperature are:
1) Faulty first ADC reading
2) Faulty slope and offset values

Will try hooking up the serial debugging port and try to troubleshoot this. Another small problem is button auto-repeating or the lack thereof-- it takes a lot of button presses to get to the temp I want, especially with the default debounce time. Will try using a rotary encoder to see if it is a better interface or failing that, will try adding auto-repeat, shortening debounce time, reading desired temp from potentiometer through unused NTC port, etc.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 31, 2012, 10:09:07 pm
yup, that is the code that sends the driver into calibration mode on power-on. The idea was that if you read something "wrong" (like too hot or too cold)  you assume you have wrong device attached and you start calibration procedure and prevent SID from damaging your iron. If you know what your iron is you can fix that in firmware and remove that piece of code completely.

Now, why this pops up even with normal iron attached
 - lose wire
 - wrong calibration data
 - gremlins :D
but most probably it's the wrong ADC read at powerup, probably ADC need some time to settle so possibly some delay should be introduced right before this while(). IIRC there is a delay there .. you might just wanna make it longer (3 or 4 times longer) to allow ADC to settle.

As for autorepeat on buttons, yes I assume it's pain in the butt :( it's because the interface was made to use rotary encoder and when you rotate the darn thing it clicks them on and off ... so when using buttons... It should be fairly easy to add some autorepeat functionality on buttons, I just can't do it today, maybe tomorrow.. or you can try yourself, you need to do it inside timer2 interrupt (every 2ms) and not in the INT1/INT2 where buttons are handled now. It should be very simple.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on May 31, 2012, 10:46:57 pm
Regarding giving the ADC time to settle, the first read is after the "SID  $Rev: 34 $nelco.crsndoo.com" splash screen so I can't imagine the PIC needing any more time to settle. Do you mean during the ADC acquisition? I see that BusyADC() is polled until the conversion is ready so no more delay is required there. Perhaps the PTC amplifier needs even more time to settle? I actually have the caps soldered in place for the PTC amp. I didn't have problems with oscillations and I only found out later that you removed yours. Perhaps I should try looking at the power-on characteristics of the PTC amplifier with the caps in place-- maybe they do oscillate, maybe they need to go. Have an oscilloscope, will hook up and have a look.

I will give the rotary encoder a shot. One thing I didn't understand was the flag for double detent. Is that a flag for a certain type of encoder? Number of transitions per detent?

If no success with the encoder, will give the auto-repeat programming a shot-- the biggest hurdle is grokking PIC registers/interrupts/configs.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 31, 2012, 11:01:33 pm
It's possible that PTC amp is oscillating, also it's possible that op needs time to settle, you said you used some other op and not the mcp one I put there or I mixed it up?

as for the detent, some encoders don't have any detent's so those can work any way you set the flag, some have single transition between detents and some have double transition. Double transition one are designed to use interrupt on only one pin so depending on what type of encoder you have you set the flag or not.

for autorepeat, you do not need to play with pic guts, everything is there, just remove the code that runs on interrupt for button press and implement code in the tmr2 interrupt (set flag for old state, read new state, measure time passed, increase or decrease by N where N increases over time ..)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on June 01, 2012, 06:57:23 pm
I used a MCP619 for the low voltage op amp. I checked the filtering on the PTC amp using an oscilloscope and it looks like a textbook example of a RC step response, no oscillation whatsoever. I didn't measure tau, but guesstimation is about 0.2s. The temp pin is stable by the time the splash screen is over. Calculating the values for the Sallen/Key filter, f should be 19Hz and the q value is 0.03 so looks like it is in the right ballpark (please excuse use of north american idioms).

Values used for above calculation are R = 15k, C = 10uF, m = 0.67, n = 1/212 (according to the conventions used on the wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sallen%E2% ... y_topology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sallen%E2%80%93Key_topology)). You had mentioned oscillations in your PTC filter due to incorrect calculation of the values. They look and work pretty well for me.

Will try hooking up the rotary encoder this weekend. If I don't like it, I will try implementing auto-repeat.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on June 01, 2012, 07:20:39 pm
Well I calculated the values to get that but I got oscillations - no clue why. Might be pcb error (I got 12 pcb's from itead, almost all had some mistakes on them :( and they supposed to be 100% etested) on mine pcb's who knows..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on June 01, 2012, 07:21:27 pm
[quote author="pjkim"]The temp pin is stable by the time the splash screen is over.[/quote]

Did you measured stable value on the pin when it jumped to calibration routine?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on June 01, 2012, 07:35:13 pm
[quote author="Arhi"]Did you measured stable value on the pin when it jumped to calibration routine?[/quote]
No, did not. I am going to move the UART initiation up in the startup sequence and output the first ADC value and calculated temperature to see what is throwing this off. Will keep you posted.

I have checked the 5V in the past, not recently, and it was very clean-- difficult to see any ripple at all.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on June 03, 2012, 10:40:47 pm
yes with dual inductor and lot of caps 5V should be very nice. On the other hand if you use low quality inductors you can have problems (for e.g. on one board I have 4.2V and found out that 1uH inductor had some huge resistance, so had to replace it)

Anyhow, it would be cool to see both on the scope and on the usart what the hack is going on on the ADC pin when it jumps into calibration routine as it means that it readed wrong value. This "messed up firmware and eeprom" values are worrying me. I never seen this, not on SID nor on any other pic project I worked on... had it few times on atmel but it was a compiler bug and I had a pointer that was messing up the code, anyhow, SID code is super simple so this could not be possible, also I'm using it for a while and never noticed that, and few other ppl are using it without problem .. maybe it has something to do with diolan bootloader ?! donno ..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on June 04, 2012, 10:34:20 am
So I think I have fixed one of my problems, the one causing the SID to go into the calibration menu on startup right after the splash screen. I put in a few extra debug outputs and listened on the serial port. I suspected that the initial ADC values were incorrect so I printed the slope, offset and rawADC prior to the line in the program checking for a valid measuredTemperature value. I also printed a full set of time, set temp, measured temp,  etc. I put in another call to readTemperature() to get the rawADC value (actually rawADC/8.0).

Here is what a normal start looked like.
Code: [Select]
Prerun values:
slope, offset, rawADC 0.7500,-207.0000,325.2500,
2.2300,100.0000,36.5625,36.7741,3.5000,1.8750,3.2500,0.0000,0.0000,0.0000,0  <-- my debug
2.4660,100.0000,36.2812,38.0645,3.5000,1.8750,3.2500,223.0181,100.0000,-117.-9140,100  <-- normal loop from here
2.7040,100.0000,36.8906,38.7096,3.5000,1.8750,3.2500,223.0181,100.0000,-117.-9140,100
2.9440,100.0000,37.7109,38.7096,3.5000,1.8750,3.2500,223.0181,100.0000,-117.-9140,100

Here is what a bad start looks like
Code: [Select]
Prerun values:
slope, offset, rawADC 0.7500,-207.0000,322.0000, *** rawADC value is read after splash screen
2.2300,100.0000,-71.-625,37.7419,3.5000,1.8750,3.2500,0.0000,0.0000,0.0000,0  <-- my debug. Although this line comes after, the temp values here were read before the splash screen.
***This is the end. It goes straight to the calibration menu because the set temp is -71, ie out of range.

Looking at the set temp of -71, the rawTemp must be about 181 (= (-71 +207)/0.75). This is set in loadDefaults(). But my reading of the rawADC is 322 which converts to 34.5 which is in range. So the first reading of the temperature is very different from the second reading.  I discarded the first reading by inserting this line
Code: [Select]
measuredTemperature = adc2temp(readTemperature(1));

before the line checking for temperature out of range and the problem appears to have been resolved. I think what is happening is that loadDefaults() is called very early, before the splash screen is put up. After the splash screen, the PTC amp has settled so the second reading is accurate-- remember I have the caps in for the Sallen/Key filter with a rise time of 480 ms (I measured). You are not having a problem because your PTC amplifier settles much faster without the caps. In my situation, there is a race condition between the first read of the temperature and the PTC amplifier settling. Things make a lot of sense now.

I think the easiest fix is to move the call to loadDefaults() to after the splash screen. By then the PTC amp should have stabilized. Also, this fix will work regardless of whether the filtering caps were installed or not.

I also haven't had the firmware corruption in a while, although you never know with an intermittent problem. Keeping my fingers crossed. Also, the buttons are starting to grow on me, now that I don't have to change the InitTemp setting so often. Trying to motivate myself to write the autorepeat but also eager to start another project I've been thinking about-- a hot-wire driver using a buck converter.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on June 04, 2012, 11:40:32 am
I said I suspect the op-amp/adc are not "ready" and that adding some delay might help :D. The main problem is readtemp at the end of the load defaults ...

I moved load defaults down so it should be ok now. (committed already)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on June 04, 2012, 11:43:03 am
btw any idea what changed before you stopped having corruption problems? Maybe you removed bootloader ? or something else?

as for buttons, yes, when you get it up and running you do not have a need to play with buttons too much so autorepeat is not required
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on June 04, 2012, 04:51:56 pm
I am always reluctant to declare victory on a problem when I don't have any idea what caused it in the first place or what made it go away or if it has gone away at all. I am still using the bootloader, the 5V supply is clean, clean, clean. I have no idea. If it happens again, will let you know.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on June 04, 2012, 04:58:02 pm
same here - I never consider problem solved unless I know how it is solved. I hoped you removed bootloader and problem went away (that would show problem in bootloader), but since you changed nothing - who knows, it can be any number of things (I still suspect bootloader).

Glad you have it up and running :) keep us posted
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on June 14, 2012, 08:01:26 am
I changed a few things in the code to improve the debounce and add autorepeat. The debounce uses a modification of Kenneth Kuhn’s debounce method (http://hackaday.com/2010/11/09/debounce ... e-them-all (http://hackaday.com/2010/11/09/debounce-code-one-post-to-rule-them-all)). The improvement is that the code will register button presses as fast as you can press them. The autorepeat has a delay of 0.3s and a repeat rate of 6.25Hz which feels comfortable. You can change these by changing AUTOREPEAT_DELAY and AUTOREPEAT_PERIOD in hardware.h

I have tried to play nice with the USE_ENCODER flag. It compiles correctly with the flag not set, ie for buttons. I don't know that it behaves correctly with an encoder-- I don't have one set up to test. The buttons have grown on me with the faster debounce and the addition of autorepeat. I changed things so that when you use buttons, INT0, INT1, and INT2 are turned off. Everything runs off the 500Hz timer2 interrupt. I left the INT1 and INT2 routines in place (after removing the button specific code) but these should never get called because the interrupts have been disabled. When the USE_ENCODER flag is set, INT0 through INT2 are left on.

It took an frustratingly long time to debug until I realized/remembered that the buttons go low upon button press. (insert frustrated, smiling emoticon wearing glasses here)

I have had no further problems with firmware corruption. I wonder whether it may be related to runaway code when I power down. I have noticed that when I turn the switch off, I can sometimes see the splash screen come on for an instant before the power goes away completely. Perhaps during that instant, sometimes the bootloader passes execution to the firmware and hence the splash screen, and other times goes rogue and overwrites firmware. Just a theory.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on June 14, 2012, 07:32:30 pm
I put a short writeup of my SID build on my blog at http://http://hardwhack.blogspot.com/2012/06/so-i-finally-have-my-soldering-iron.html

It has a few tips for assembling/adjusting the circuit that were not entirely obvious, such as how to adjust the trim pots for the PTC amplifier. Also, I used a non zero-crossing opto-triac. The one I received from Digikey didn't work-- either born that way or I bjorked it somehow. I picked up a non zero-crossing opto-triac locally and it seems to work fine. The turn ons can be at any part of the cycle. The turn offs are at zero crossings because thats just how triacs roll. Doesn't appear to affect overall circuit function.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on June 20, 2012, 09:53:03 am
Thanks for shaing your build, it looks like this board is ready for a small initial batch (PCB only) at Seeed. We'll need some comprehensive documentation. May we please copy some of your notes to the wiki if we attribute your site?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on June 20, 2012, 05:55:56 pm
Yes, of course, feel free to use whatever you would like. Let me know if I can help.

And when do we find out more about the secret project?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on July 25, 2012, 04:19:17 pm
Depends on which one. ATX is out, that was not pushed on the blog. THe other secret project is all done now, but I'm staying super tight lipped on that one :) Waiting for the quote and final boards to send in.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: olala123 on August 26, 2012, 09:33:58 pm
Hello,arhi , I am "Soldering Iron Controller Gen2,V4.0" very interested in, because it is simple, relatively easy to DIY, but I can not find it in the entire forum firmware
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on August 27, 2012, 03:22:19 am
You can find find a link to the source code on the first post of this thread on page one. It is hosted on sourceforge. If you are planning on using buttons, may I suggest my modification of arhi's firmware which adds auto repeat and more robust switch debouching. You can find it a few posts back, about June 13.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: octal on October 03, 2012, 02:26:40 pm
I have bought a soldering iron hadle marked as to be compatible with Atten 936B (supposed to be the clone of Hakko 936). The problem is that I found that it has 7 holes instead of 5 holes. Does anyone know if it's still usable with Arhi's driver?
or is there any adaptation to do to get it to work with it?  (I know from spec that it's a 24volt)

(http://http://imall.iteadstudio.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/im120818006_2.jpg)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 03, 2012, 05:19:27 pm
measure resistance between every 2 pins and report here
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Thorontir on October 04, 2012, 09:39:14 pm
I have just bought this soldering iron: http://www.ebay.com/itm/936-Soldering-S ... 2a1f90a9c4 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/936-Soldering-Station-Iron-Handle-TOOL-for-HAKKO-907-ESD-HOT-/180918200772?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a1f90a9c4) (wich is the correct one for this SID, isn't it?)

Connector on the soldering iron seems to be DIN type, but there is no connector of this kind in the board, I suppose you just pick one for the case and wire that to the board, but I do not see any BOM where the connector is listed. Can anyone enlighten me?

There is more info than at sourceforge, or that is the last revision?

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on October 04, 2012, 10:03:20 pm
Looks like it should work-- supposed to be Hakko 936 compatible. The DIN 5 connector is off the board. I connected the board to the DIN connectors using solder at the DIN end and screw terminals at the SID board end. This makes it easy to disconnect the board from the connector.

N.B., there are two different types of five pin DIN connectors. One with the pins spread out over 180 deg and another spread out over 240 deg. You need the 240 deg one. Another thing to watch out for is that the threaded shroud on the male connector can interfere with the body of the female connector. Just pry off the threaded shroud-- the DIN5 connector fits rather securely and will stay connected unless you pull it out.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: octal on October 04, 2012, 10:10:16 pm
Thank you Arhi for your support. I'll do all measures this weekend and let you know.

regards
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Thorontir on October 05, 2012, 10:26:02 am
[quote author="pjkim"]N.B., there are two different types of five pin DIN connectors. One with the pins spread out over 180 deg and another spread out over 240 deg. You need the 240 deg one. Another thing to watch out for is that the threaded shroud on the male connector can interfere with the body of the female connector. Just pry off the threaded shroud-- the DIN5 connector fits rather securely and will stay connected unless you pull it out.[/quote]

Thank you very much pjkim! Unfortunately for you, I have more questions ;)

Will look carefully when I order the connectors. That said, Is there a BOM for the board and/or for the elements that are "out of the board" (buttons/encoder, DIN connector, that kind of things).

And for the PCB, the CAD/CAM files in sourceforge are correct? I was thinking to send it to http://oshpark.com/ (http://oshpark.com/) since people seem to talk very well about them...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on October 05, 2012, 10:57:21 am
[quote author="Thorontir"][quote author="pjkim"]N.B., there are two different types of five pin DIN connectors. One with the pins spread out over 180 deg and another spread out over 240 deg. You need the 240 deg one. Another thing to watch out for is that the threaded shroud on the male connector can interfere with the body of the female connector. Just pry off the threaded shroud-- the DIN5 connector fits rather securely and will stay connected unless you pull it out.[/quote]

Thank you very much pjkim! Unfortunately for you, I have more questions ;)

Will look carefully when I order the connectors. That said, Is there a BOM for the board and/or for the elements that are "out of the board" (buttons/encoder, DIN connector, that kind of things).

And for the PCB, the CAD/CAM files in sourceforge are correct? I was thinking to send it to http://oshpark.com/ (http://oshpark.com/) since people seem to talk very well about them...[/quote]

There is a BOM for the SID v1,5 made by DP, http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Pat ... evelopment (http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Patrick:_Soldering_iron_driver_v1_development) it's at the bottom of the page. It is identical to Arhi's gen3, but the part names/numbers are not the same....

If you've built it based on arhi's design, there are part values in the schematic...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on October 05, 2012, 09:49:53 pm
I ordered my parts through Digikey so i could get free shipping. I did not order resistors, caps, buttons, screw terminals, etc because I had most of those on hand. There might be a few other things I left off-- I also ordered more than I need for a couple of things so I could use them for other projects, ie buck switcher IC. Here is my list:

Code: [Select]
2  LM2574N-5GOS-ND      IC BUCK 5V 0.5A 8DIP 5V SWITCHER 0 1.78000 $3.56
2  568-3710-5-ND        TRIAC 600V 8A TO220AB 0 0.83000 $1.66
2  MCP619-I/P-ND        IC OPAMP 2.3V QUAD R-R 14DIP LOW VOLTAGE OP AMP 0 1.66000 $3.32
1  PIC18F2550-I/SP-ND  IC PIC MCU FLASH 16KX16 28DIP 0 6.56000 $6.56
10 1N4148TACT-ND        DIODE SS FAST 100V 200MA DO35 DIODE FAST 100V 0 0.05800 $0.58
2  497-7053-1-ND        DIODE SCHOTTKY 40V 1A DO-41 SCHOTTKY DIODE 0 0.57000 $1.14
1  LM385Z-2.5GOS-ND    IC VREF SHUNT 2.5V TO-92-3 2.5V REF 0 0.70000 $0.70
1  490-2888-ND          TRIMMER 5K OHM 0.5W TH 0 1.56000 $1.56
1  445-3775-1-ND        INDUCTOR 330UH .82A RADIAL 0 0.90000 $0.90
1  3306P-503-ND        TRIMMER 50K OHM 0.2W TH 0 0.42000 $0.42
1  3306P-101-ND        TRIMMER 100 OHM 0.2W TH 0 0.42000 $0.42
1  MOC3043M-ND          OPTOCOUPLER TRIAC-OUT ZC 6-DIP 0 1.32000 $1.32
1  300-8507-ND          CRYSTAL 20.000 MHZ 18PF HC49/US 0 0.63000 $0.63
1  490-2876-ND          TRIMMER 100K OHM 0.5W TH RV2 0 1.56000 $1.56
1  425-2414-ND          RELAY SSR 240VAC 16A ZC 4-SIP 0 6.26000 $6.26
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Thorontir on October 06, 2012, 10:08:41 pm
Another question, sorry for the inconvenience ;)

I downloaded gerbers from Sourceforge, but oshpark complains about the files. I changed the names to fit the "rules" at that site, but seems that board outline is missing... Anyone has gerbers for that site? If not, where are the proteus files? I do not seem that, just pdfs and the gerbers that do not work with oshpark...

 Thanks again guys!
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 06, 2012, 11:07:02 pm
you got gerbers for mine mixed smd and trough hole version? (I think you better use the DP's trough hole version, it is routed nicer :D )

On mine gerbers ( http://sourceforge.net/projects/arhimed-sid/files/ (http://sourceforge.net/projects/arhimed-sid/files/) ) all layers have board outline, look at them with gerbv, I just checked it and the outline is there (on every layer)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 06, 2012, 11:34:44 pm
btw I added proteus sources to the http://sourceforge.net/projects/arhimed-sid/files/ (http://sourceforge.net/projects/arhimed-sid/files/)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Thorontir on October 07, 2012, 08:32:48 am
[quote author="arhi"]you got gerbers for mine mixed smd and trough hole version? (I think you better use the DP's trough hole version, it is routed nicer :D )

On mine gerbers ( http://sourceforge.net/projects/arhimed-sid/files/ (http://sourceforge.net/projects/arhimed-sid/files/) ) all layers have board outline, look at them with gerbv, I just checked it and the outline is there (on every layer)[/quote]

If I have understood it correctly, seems that oshpark expects board outline to be in a separate file. That seems to be the problem.

I will look at DP version, but seemed to me that the firmware was not the same, and was not ready (My fault, readed when I should have been sleeping for hours...)

Thanks again!
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 07, 2012, 09:39:42 am
exactly same schematic so same firmware. only difference is dp version is drawn usin eagle and is fully trough hole.

as for gerbers noone i ever worked for wanted outline in separate file, usually is "outline on at least one layer", anyhow if you want to use mine pcb, i uploaded proteus files to sourceforge so ou can export any type of gerber you like
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Thorontir on October 07, 2012, 10:50:45 am
Must be some problem on them: tried the DP version gerbers and again same error, but with the eagle file there was no problem.

Seems that I would have to start with eagle... I used Proteus when I was in University, and later in work some crappy 15 year old software, but recently I was triying to get used to KiCAD, but seems that eagle is the most widely used program with this companies...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 07, 2012, 05:48:16 pm
I very much dislike eagle so I'm not a proper person to talk with about it.
I also dislike KiCAD but at least KiCAD is open source.
For paid EDA IMO Proteus is the best there is for hobby (bang for bucks) since Altium and Cadence are just too darn expensive
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: jaunedeau on October 19, 2012, 05:26:04 pm
Hi,

  I was also planning a pic based soldering iron / reflow oven driver. Afer I hade a rough idea of how I'd do, I looked at what other people did (and what problem they encountered), and find your already working project :)

  I have a few question about your choices (not critic, really just question : my domain is java coding and I'm only beginner hobbyist with electronic) :

-Why plan a pic18f2250 version ? The PIC18F25K50 is almost compatible, have same ram / flash / eeprom / instruction set, has cap touch, does NOT required external crystal for usb, and is half the price of the 2550. It drops one of the 16 bits timers for a 8 bit, and is not (yet ?) avaiable in QFN.
-Why is the line after the diode bridge labelled 35V ? If I remember correctly (from 17 years ago :) ), 24V AC (rms) after the diodes and capacity should give 24V DC ?
-Could'nt you make a simpler / cheaper PSU by using just a half bridge rectifier with a bigger capacitor (then getting a not perfect 12V DC), and then with this lower voltage and only 600mA needed just use a 5V regulator ?

Thanks you,
John.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 19, 2012, 05:55:54 pm
[quote author="jaunedeau"]
-Why plan a pic18f2250 version ? The PIC18F25K50 is almost compatible, have same ram / flash / eeprom / instruction set, has cap touch, does NOT required external crystal for usb, and is half the price of the 2550. It drops one of the 16 bits timers for a 8 bit, and is not (yet ?) avaiable in QFN.
[/quote]

cause Ian wanted usb and 18F2550 was smallest USB enabled pic I had in a drawer. Also IIRC when I started this PIC18F25K50 was not readily available (at least not for me locally) while 18F2550 was available on every corner. Another reason is that I know 2550 pretty well while new PIC's have bunch of bugs and you really need to study both datasheet and errata before you design anything.

[quote author="jaunedeau"]
-Why is the line after the diode bridge labelled 35V ? If I remember correctly (from 17 years ago :) ), 24V AC (rms) after the diodes and capacity should give 24V DC ?
[/quote]

You do not remember correctly. 24VAC (RMS) will have peak of 24*SQRT(2) so 34V peak that will drop only by diode voltage drop after you rectify it and add capacitor so depending on the type of diodes and the current you will have 33-34V on the output.

[quote author="jaunedeau"]
-Could'nt you make a simpler / cheaper PSU by using just a half bridge rectifier with a bigger capacitor (then getting a not perfect 12V DC), and then with this lower voltage and only 600mA needed just use a 5V regulator ?
[/quote]

I tried, it was heating up too much, and no - you do not get 12V using half bridge only, try it out :D, if you use big enough cap you will have same voltage as with full bridge, you just get with smaller average voltage with smaller capacitor but you still have peaks at same 34V as with full bridge so it wil not really solve the heating problem .. it's way simpler to go with DCDC konverter
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on October 20, 2012, 01:25:40 am
I think the 25k50 is pin to pin compatable, ad preaty much code compatable as well, If you're design your own board feel free to use our schematic, and simply connect the two OSC pins wherever you need them. You'd have to compile it yourselft, and chane the code to use the internal osc, but I'd love to see it done....

Just to give more insight about the DC/DC..it's only needed because we kinda forced Arhi to use only one tap of the transformer to power the electronics, and the iron....so you have to get 5V from the 30+V comming in....

thats a 25V drop, and at that voltage even 20,30 mA will heat up the linear regulatror beyond it's capacity. and the LCD by it self draws at least 100mA... so basicly a DC/DC was the only way to go...

There is another way to do it, and I think this was the way arhi did it in his Gen 1 prototype... simply use a second tap from the transformer with 5VAC and make a linear 5V regulator....This would eliminate the need for the whole 4 diode bridge and the Cap (on the 24V AC side) since the Iron is powered direct from AC... It's a more elegant design, but requires a Transformer with 24vAC and 5V(probably 6) ac taps..

ps the 5v linear regulator could use a single diode and cap, insited of a full bridge
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 20, 2012, 10:02:39 am
Yes, btw all the transformers I initially ordered for this project were 24VAC + 6VAC and I used simple 7805 ... but then Ian and Filip had the idea to better design it to work only from 24VAC so that a transformer from old soldering irons can be used and in order to be able to use it from 19VDC computer power supply .. that together introduced DCDC into the mix (also pre this project I was not really designing DCDC controllers so it was really a time to try that out too :D ) ... so basically
 - USB is because of DP (I would not put an USB there, for debugging I use UART) hence the choice of a chip (I'd probably use some other 18F from the drawer but this was the only one with usb capability at the time in my drawer)
 - DCDC is because of DP (I'd go with 24+6V output on the transformer and 7805 like I did on original design)

I do not think those decisions were bad as this way board is more "universal"...

As for the "reflow oven driver" I will make one soon. I purchased new apartment and I'm in the process of moving from this one to new one and that takes time so I'm currently spending all my free time there instead on my hobbies ... but as soon as that's done I will be making a reflow controller that's going to be tad more complicated then this board and is probably going to be using 16bit pic or maybe even a 32bit arm, It's going to use a TFT (one of the tft's itead is selling, one of the parallel ones probably), will have control over door, 2 fans, 2 heaters and will read input on few thermo couples (NTC/PTC ain't going to be useful here) .. but .. that's probably going to start in January
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on October 20, 2012, 10:29:14 am
are you gonna bake brownies:)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 20, 2012, 07:35:56 pm
to be honest I think the hardest part of the job will be to find a good oven to modify :(
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Thorontir on October 20, 2012, 11:20:44 pm
Well, finally my Soldering Iron and some spare tips arrived.

[attachment=2]

[attachment=1]

Boards should come soon, and I am going to buy at farnell the components I miss.

The Soldering Iron connector is this, it's the right one?

[attachment=0]
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on October 30, 2012, 12:05:21 pm
Thorontir that iron have a PTC sensor?
I have a aoyue iron with the same appearance but it was a thermocouple sensor
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on October 30, 2012, 12:22:31 pm
That looks exactly like mine Hakko 907 clone (difficult to see if it is clone or not though, but for $8-9 I think so :))
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on October 30, 2012, 12:39:58 pm
I think it is a clone too.
So it have a PTC sensor?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on October 30, 2012, 12:52:15 pm
I don't know what it have, but it's using the exact same Hakko heatingelement. (with integrated sensor)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on October 30, 2012, 12:53:22 pm
Is it possible to find a way to detect sensor? not only for this project, but for other projects to, when you have some unknown sensor, how to find out what it is?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on October 30, 2012, 01:26:12 pm
The thermocouple generates a voltage, so connecting a voltmeter in the scale of milivolts, the voltage increases with temperature.
If not, it is a ntc or a ptc. Both changes its resistance with the temperature. The ntc decreases it resistance with the increase of temperature, and the ptc is the opposite. To determine if it is a pt100, pt50... depends the resistance at 0ºC.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on October 30, 2012, 02:45:01 pm
is not that simple, some RTD's (RTD == resistance temperature detector) also generate small voltage when heated, heater generate small voltage when heated etc etc .. so it's not that simple ... you need to both measure resistance and voltage at known temperatures, to be sure you need to measure 0C, 25C and 100C to get any idea of what the sensor is. TC is easiest to check, use any thermometer that uses TC as a sensor, attach "unknown sensor" to it and see if the displayed temperature makes sense (you need to measure temp that's not your room temp, so 0C and 100C are ideal here) if you get exact values it's a TC :)

for soldering, almost noone uses NTC as NTC don't go that high (usually they go up to 300C, eventually few of them can go up to 350C but that's a max, for soldering you need 400-450 so NTC ain't gonna work), so resistive sensors are all PTC type. Some (like weller) use PT100 and PT100 combinations (for e.g. you have wellers with PT20 but that's only 5 pt100 in parallel, you have some others with PT1000 and that's again 10 PT100 in series etc etc), and some others use some "custom" PTC sensors ... for e.g. HAKKO and it's clones use PTC sensor that does not fit any of the standards I know of... what is important about this sensors is that they have U shaped curve so a same resistance can be on 2 very different temperatures so measuring resistance at room temperature ain't really useful, these sensors show valid (fairly linear) data only after 100C and that's why they are chosen for the soldering iron as below 100C you really don't care what the temp is :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Gargamel on November 04, 2012, 02:53:24 pm
What about this:
Hot Air Desoldering Gun for SAIKE machine 852D+ 898D Replacement

Is possible to handle this?

Of course,
speed control of the motor must still resolve.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: matseng on November 04, 2012, 04:08:03 pm
[quote author="arhi"]for e.g. you have wellers with PT20 but that's only 5 pt100 in parallel [/quote]

What would the reason be for anyone put 5 pt100's in parallel?  The resistance change per degree would just be five times less making it harder to get an exact reading plus it would cost a bundle.  Or is there something smart that I can't think of?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 04, 2012, 06:54:54 pm
[quote author="matseng"][quote author="arhi"]for e.g. you have wellers with PT20 but that's only 5 pt100 in parallel [/quote]

What would the reason be for anyone put 5 pt100's in parallel?  The resistance change per degree would just be five times less making it harder to get an exact reading plus it would cost a bundle.  Or is there something smart that I can't think of?[/quote]

No clue why they do it. I for e.g. often use 2 or even 3 NTC's on my extruders on 3d printers to increase precision as I mount them in holes around the nozzle mouth so I get better temperature averaging as one side of the nozzle can be hotter then rest of the nozzle due to not 100% homogeneous material, difference of thickness (especially when you drill a hole for ntc), position of the heat element, position of the fan etc etc .. it's especially important with aluminium nozzles for e.g. as it has fairly low thermal mass, with copper/brass nozzle's it's not that important due to much higher thermal mass of the nozzle ...

Maybe they do it for a same reason on the weller PT20 or maybe there's a manufacturing reason ... or there's always a possibility person who told me that he opened the weller and seen 5 PT100's inside was lying to me as I have not seen that myself .. anyhow I guess it's easier to put 5 sensors on heater and get avg temperature then to put one "precisely on the hottest part of the heater" ... weller is one of the companies that really try to put sensor "in right place" so .. they probably have their reasons..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on November 05, 2012, 10:25:26 am
[quote author="Gargamel"]What about this:
Hot Air Desoldering Gun for SAIKE machine 852D+ 898D Replacement

Is possible to handle this?

Of course,
speed control of the motor must still resolve.[/quote]

I have no clue, if the heater is powered by 24V AC then it would probably work. My handle uses a k-type so the sensor is supported as well.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Gargamel on November 08, 2012, 04:54:28 pm
[quote author="arakis"][quote author="Gargamel"]What about this:
Hot Air Desoldering Gun for SAIKE machine 852D+ 898D Replacement

Is possible to handle this?

Of course,
speed control of the motor must still resolve.[/quote]

I have no clue, if the heater is powered by 24V AC then it would probably work. My handle uses a k-type so the sensor is supported as well.[/quote]

I researched a bit:
http://aes.at.ua/publ/pajalnye_stancii/ ... 37-1-0-252 (http://aes.at.ua/publ/pajalnye_stancii/pajalnaja_stancija_termofen_i_pajalnik/37-1-0-252)

PIC 18f2550 has two PWM outputs,
and could handle both control.

With certain modifications schemes and programs, possibly.

In the first post would not let me copy the link, this I thought:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/280837985023?ss ... 1436.l2649 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/280837985023?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649)

So when combine both handles, we get this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/120755898504?ss ... 1436.l2649 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/120755898504?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649)

;->>
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on November 08, 2012, 05:08:59 pm
18f2550 can easily control both soldering iron + heat gun, it can control even 2 irons + heat gun without a problem ... I didn't design it in 'cause I never needed it. I'm not sure modding this board will be very good idea, I think it's much simpler to do it from scratch, it's not a problematic thing to design.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: TimLaux on November 30, 2012, 04:44:12 am
Hi everyone,

I'm a bit confused by all of the documentation.

To initially program the chip, do you use USB or the ICSP header?

Diolan is used in conjunction with USB right? But if I was to build one of these from scratch, when I flash the firmware for the first time, how do I do it? Using what method?

Thanks.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on November 30, 2012, 09:42:20 am
[quote author="TimLaux"]Hi everyone,

I'm a bit confused by all of the documentation.

To initially program the chip, do you use USB or the ICSP header?

Diolan is used in conjunction with USB right? But if I was to build one of these from scratch, when I flash the firmware for the first time, how do I do it? Using what method?

Thanks.[/quote]

Sorry about the documentation mess up, I'll fix it up in a few days..

You'd need to flash the hex file onto your PIC the first time you use it...any PIC programmer that supports pic18F2550 will work, which is basically any PIC programmer out there...You can find the hex file in arhi's repository, I think it's liked in the OP..

P.S. Since we are only selling the boards, everyone that is interested in this board will have to program the PIC themselves...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on January 30, 2013, 01:09:39 pm
It is possible to adapt this driver to a Hakko T12 tip?
was good because it has the sensor and heater inside the tip, but from what I know the thermocouple is in series with the heater. This complicates the temperature measurement.
Has anyone tried?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 30, 2013, 01:17:54 pm
do you have any data on the T12? Schematic? Can you share?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on January 30, 2013, 02:02:08 pm
I dont have the original Hakko schematic but I found some schematic in a chinese page.

The T12 tip is driven by a DC voltage and the temperature is measured in periods when there is no tension in the heater
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 30, 2013, 02:15:17 pm
This is a 2wire setup. No you cannot modify SID to use those. You have to redesign it. It's not a big deal to design a driver to handle this type of handles too but I did not want to do it initially because they are expensive. I do see a point of making a cheap driver for 10$ handle, I really don't care about making a cheap driver for 100$ handle as if you can afford 100$ handle you can afford also a 100-200$ driver :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on January 30, 2013, 02:40:46 pm
depend on what you have to pay..
I bought an fx951 from US, 220volt version, but I got an clone, paid $240+$30 in shipping.
And the fx951 on amazon or other verified dealers take the same amount so I thought it was ok

Here in Norway, i have to pay the equivalent of $760 for the fx951.. which is a lot more than $240..

And then you ask, why would you want this type?, the 936 and 888 is definately good enough for our use, but they don't have this series of tips:
http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/hakko ... 5-1401.htm (http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/hakko/accessories/soldering-tips/t15-1401.htm)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on January 30, 2013, 02:47:45 pm
There is no way they are runnig a Thermocouple in series with the heater, it would't be able to stand the 2amps...
Its the familiar setup reading the resistance of the heater to get the heater temp.. probably measured when during the Toff period of the PWM signal that drives it..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 30, 2013, 02:57:07 pm
well those tips I only found useful with BGA work, and again, you do BGA, you pay thousands for soldering work anyhow :D :D :D
can't you regularly get the one for 270$ from amazon and ignore local sellers?

back to the driver thing .. can you get the replacement handle for 951 cheaply ? The only place I found the replacement iron sold it for 100$ .. tips are also non-cheap .. that defeated the purpose of cheap & simple driver SID intended to be... (actually I just had bunch of hakko and solomon handles in da house so wanted to use them :D if I had 951 handle I'd support that one too but now is too late)

The schematic you attached looks ok, why don't you use that one ?

@arakis, the heater itself can behave like TC only not the standard type so you have to generate a table yourself
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on January 30, 2013, 03:01:27 pm
I have talked about that tip because I see that:

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shi ... 21251.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-HAKKO-FM-2028-soldering-handle-soldering-iron-for-HAKKO-FX-951-soldering-station-with/628621251.html)

$20 for the handle + tip and free shipping I think it is not too expensive.
Each tip is about $10 and have several advantages relative to Hakko 907, as the temperature is more constant and less delay because the sensor is located near the tip end, easy replacement tip in operation, and when replacing the tip the heater is also new
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 30, 2013, 03:25:30 pm
wow that is cheap, last time I checked they were selling the handle without the tip for 100-120$

as for composite cartridge tips, I know the benefits, I use PACE with TD100 handle myself :D and I love it (it's actually imo way better then hakko fm2028 cause fm2028 is so god damn long)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on January 30, 2013, 04:02:47 pm
yes in the picture it looks a bit long. The TD100 looks fine, but I dont find cheap tips for it :(

I'm tempted to buy the fm2028 but I'm afraid that I can not put it to work properly
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on January 30, 2013, 04:03:11 pm
That handle is seriously bad, it's the same I have on my clone, the tip fell out, and bad connection all the time..

This is the cheapest originals i have found:
http://www.dancap.co.uk/soldering/fx951pricelist.htm (http://www.dancap.co.uk/soldering/fx951pricelist.htm)
But he does not sell outside UK
This seller in US sells on ebay: http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/hakko ... 027-02.htm (http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/hakko/soldering-irons/fm2027-02.htm)
but they are expensive, and he normally takes $40 for shipping.

Regarding amazon, well, amazon does not sell everything outside us either, but the next problem is 110/220 volts, if could go to UK, I could buy an replacement transformer there. To bad Hakko dictates this so much, that he don't want to sell outside UK.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on January 30, 2013, 04:16:52 pm
The Hakko 912 looks better and it also uses T12 tips
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shi ... 67431.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-High-quality-HAKKO-912-Soldering-Iron-Handle-for-HAKKO-942-24V-75W-ESD-Free/744267431.html)

Do you have already used one of these?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 30, 2013, 04:36:20 pm
TD100 tips are not more expensive then proper hakko tips. I was getting a diamond (pace have standard tips with iron between copper and tin and diamond tips with industrial diamond between copper and tin, the diamond ones last waaaaaaaaay longer and the heat conductivity trough diamond is way better then trough iron) tips from PACE for 13$ each .. compared to 10-12$ for regular hakko tips that's not expensive.. regular pace tips (iron, not diamond) are 9-11$

What TD100 is very good about is when you grab the handle the tip is very close to your hand so you can do very precise moves and you can work under microscope, with 2028 or 907 the tip is so far away from your hand that precise motion is hard and you need a lot of room under your microscope to properly work (same issue with Spanish JBC)... and of course, we all know that PACE patented the microwave soldering tip :D

http://www.pacedirect.com/products/tips ... td100-tips (http://www.pacedirect.com/products/tips-and-nozzles/soldering-iron-tips/td100-tips)

http://www.pacedirect.com/products/tips ... ndard-0634 (http://www.pacedirect.com/products/tips-and-nozzles/soldering-iron-tips/td100-tips/td100-long-life-diamond-tips/094-chisel-standard-0634)
http://www.pacedirect.com/products/tips ... e-tip-0501 (http://www.pacedirect.com/products/tips-and-nozzles/soldering-iron-tips/td100-tips/td100-smt-and-specialty-tips/blade-tip-0501)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 30, 2013, 04:40:32 pm
wrt length .. some comparison image from another post here on dp forum
(http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=8434&t=1)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: matseng on January 30, 2013, 04:57:03 pm
[quote author="arhi"], the diamond ones last waaaaaaaaay longer and the heat conductivity trough diamond is way better then trough iron) tips from PACE for 13$ each .. compared to 10-12$ for regular hakko tips that's not expensive.. regular pace tips (iron, not diamond) are 9-11$[/quote]

Are they $13 or $130?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 30, 2013, 05:09:48 pm
$13, check the link (http://http://www.pacedirect.com/products/tips-and-nozzles/soldering-iron-tips/td100-tips/td100-long-life-diamond-tips) for example. check out PACE for details

http://www.pacedirect.co.uk/faqs.php (http://www.pacedirect.co.uk/faqs.php)
Quote
What are Diamond Tips?
Diamond Series Tips are designed for maximum life, even when using corrosive lead free solders, and for maximum heat transfer putting highly productive soldering within reach easily.

Traditionally, soldering tips are manufactured by forming the desired shape of the tip out of copper, then plating the copper with a protective layer of pure iron. Next, a layer of nickel/chrome is selectively plated on the tips to prevent the entire tip from wetting with solder which defines the working area of the tip. The problem with traditional tips is that iron is a poor conductor of heat compared to copper and copper is not as durable as iron, so there is a fine balance that needs to be maintained. If too much iron is added, it will prevent the tip from working well, and if too little iron is added the tip will fail quickly.

PACE's new Diamond Series tips differ from traditionally made tips because we combine submicron sized particles of natural diamond with the iron plating solution that results in a composite, protective layer of iron and diamond particles. The diamond enriched matrix is harder than pure iron and will not wear down as quickly as the tip is abraded. Diamond tips can withstand the corrosive environment of lead free solders and high temperatures far better than soldering tips plated with iron alone. Because the diamond particles are an itegral part of the iron matrix and not a coating, they cannot wear off. Additionally, the resulting surface of the tip is not smooth but is micro-textured that eases wetting with solder and reduces the formation of oxidation. PACE's new Diamond Tips offer extended life, faster wetting and effortless cleaning.

In addition to the patented matrix, all Diamond Series tips feature an increased thermal mass and higher wattage heater to really deliver the heat better than before! These are ideal for high mass and/or high volume applications! PACE continues to lead the industry by continually developing technology to improve soldering performance. With the 48 available Diamond Series tips, it is now easier than ever to find the perfect, high performance tip for your application.

Diamond Series Tips, are available for the TD-100 & HTD-100 Soldering Irons.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on January 30, 2013, 05:15:21 pm
Some prices so you don't have to login there (part of my recent invoice)

Code: [Select]
Diamond Soldering Tip .094" Chisel Standard, Product Code: 1126-0634-P1	$13.48 USD
Diamond Soldering Tip.118" Bevel, 60 Degrees, Product Code: 1126-0618-P1 $13.48 USD
Diamond Soldering Tip .047" Chisel Standard, Product Code: 1126-0632-P1 $13.48 USD
Diamond Soldering Tip .016" Conical, Product Code: 1126-0601-P1 $13.48 USD
Angled MiniWave, 2.4mm , Product Code: 1124-0035-P1 $10.44 USD
Angled MiniWave, Fine Pitch, Product Code: 1124-0039-P1 $10.44 USD
Angled Micro-Wave, Product Code: 1124-0045-P1 $15.79 USD
Micro-Wave, Product Code: 1124-0046-P1 $15.79 USD
Angled MiniWave, 3.3 mm, Product Code: 1124-0033-P1 $10.44 USD
MiniWave, Product Code: 1124-0032-P1 $10.44 USD
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on February 01, 2013, 11:11:37 am
I have modified the schematic for the Hakko T12 tip.

Do you think it can work?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on February 01, 2013, 11:17:54 am
[quote author="diogoc"]I have modified the schematic for the Hakko T12 tip.

Do you think it can work?[/quote]

have no clue.. :) do you have a original SID PCB.. I think you can plug in tihs analog front end and test it out. There is a jumper SEN_SELECT next to the USB.. the middle pin is connected to the ADC of the microcontroller, or the TEMPERATURE PIN.. so you could just hook any front end there...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 01, 2013, 11:38:16 am
[quote author="diogoc"]I have modified the schematic for the Hakko T12 tip.

Do you think it can work?[/quote]

not like this it won't work

when you turn on Q1 you will have 24V on the heater+ so 24V on R9, zener will cut it to 5V but not really best solution, not to mention everything will go to hell if R9 dies.

does 8495 has cold joint compensation?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on February 01, 2013, 11:42:28 am
[quote author="arhi"][quote author="diogoc"]I have modified the schematic for the Hakko T12 tip.

Do you think it can work?[/quote]

not like this it won't work[/quote]

Why it won't work?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 01, 2013, 11:57:11 am
well it's bit more complex then that ..

1. i do not believe there's a way that those 2 wires are in the same time Ktype tc and heater, it's either not a ktype or there's a third wire
2. i do not like at all the R9 D6 combo, I'd add another fet there that would be open when Q1 is closed
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on February 01, 2013, 11:59:32 am
[quote author="arhi"][quote author="diogoc"]I have modified the schematic for the Hakko T12 tip.

Do you think it can work?[/quote]

not like this it won't work

when you turn on Q1 you will have 24V on the heater+ so 24V on R9, zener will cut it to 5V but not really best solution, not to mention everything will go to hell if R9 dies.

does 8495 has cold joint compensation?[/quote]

yes 8495 have cold joint compensation.
I have some doubts about the zener. The R9 have 24V-5v= 19V so it will dissipate 26mW, it is no much for a 1/4W resistor.
The AD8495 could have 25V on its inputs so the zener is only for precaution, but I can reduce the 24V for the heather and remove the zener
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on February 01, 2013, 12:07:11 pm
It is possible that the tip dont have a K type thermocouple, but the AD8495 helps because it amplify the TC voltage and do cold junction compensation. Then in the firmware adapts the voltages values to the real temperature
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 01, 2013, 12:15:58 pm
donno, maybe it would get the job done but I'd rather do some tests with the tip first before I start doing any designs
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: matseng on February 01, 2013, 12:17:37 pm
[quote author="arhi"]$13, check the link (http://http://www.pacedirect.com/products/tips-and-nozzles/soldering-iron-tips/td100-tips/td100-long-life-diamond-tips) for example. check out PACE for details

http://www.pacedirect.co.uk/faqs.php (http://www.pacedirect.co.uk/faqs.php)[/quote]

Hm?  One or two dollars extra to get a diamond coated extra super long life tip sounds like a no-brainer to me.  :-)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on February 01, 2013, 12:27:51 pm
I have to test all when I get the T12 tip.
The first thing is to try to find out the type of the TC or its uV/ºC

do you said that you have a fm-2028 clone handle, you ever tried to measure the voltage of its TC?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on February 01, 2013, 12:37:08 pm
[quote author="diogoc"]I have to test all when I get the T12 tip.
The first thing is to try to find out the type of the TC or its uV/ºC

do you said that you have a fm-2028 clone handle, you ever tried to measure the voltage of its TC?[/quote]

Sorry for butting in, but, how do you know it uses a TC as a temperature sensor? this is the bassis for your whole circuit, and if it is not the sensor they use, your circuit simply won't work...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on February 01, 2013, 12:58:42 pm
[quote author="arakis"]Sorry for butting in, but, how do you know it uses a TC as a temperature sensor? this is the bassis for your whole circuit, and if it is not the sensor they use, your circuit simply won't work...[/quote]

I'm not sure that it uses a TC, but I see some schematics, inclusive commercial drivers for the T12 tips and they are based on TC basis.

thinking about it really does not make much sense to use a thermistor as its resistance varies with temperature and so the entire heater resistance also varied

But as I said I have to test that when I get the T12 tip
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on February 01, 2013, 01:09:37 pm
can you share the shematics here, I'd love to see them..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 01, 2013, 01:22:05 pm
yes the T12 schematic I seen also looks like it's a type of thermocouple .. but since it's same 2 wires as heater then it's probably the heater that's part of it .. usually 2 wire tip assemblies use heater resistance to measure the temperature (as heater wire changes resistance with temperature)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on February 01, 2013, 01:24:00 pm
One of them is on the previous page.
The other I dont have it right now but I post it later
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on February 01, 2013, 01:26:28 pm
http://www.tequipment.net/pdf/Hakko/FX951_Manual.pdf (http://www.tequipment.net/pdf/Hakko/FX951_Manual.pdf)

here is the manual, with a trouble shooting guide.. hope it helps..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on February 01, 2013, 02:58:01 pm
This only tells you where to measure, there are only two rings on the T12 tip, and the metal on the tip itself.
Is there anything I can measure on mine to help you out?
I have an clone here, so I'm not so careful with it, longterm plan is to get an original handle+foampiece, and try to see if the pcb inside the unit can be salvaged, so it gives me correct temperatures. (It gives med around 400degres when I set it to 340C now.)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 01, 2013, 03:08:01 pm
if you have a thermocouple input on your meter heat up the tip to some temp, get it out and measure using meter what will it show on the k-type tc range
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on February 01, 2013, 03:33:54 pm
aha,  Idon't have that, but I have the adafruit breakout board: https://www.adafruit.com/products/269 (https://www.adafruit.com/products/269)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on February 01, 2013, 03:39:50 pm
You can use that board too. You have to make a simple program in arduino, pic, avr, to read the temperature values via spi
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on February 01, 2013, 03:47:56 pm
yes, I will do that, I will find a way to heat it to an given temperature and measure, I have some other sensors that I can use to check with at the same time.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on February 01, 2013, 03:49:05 pm
maybe next gen of this board could have the Iron part on an daugther card, so one can take the card one needs, like now,  Ithink there are lots of parts that you really don't need if you are using this or that iron..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on February 01, 2013, 04:01:08 pm
next gen need 19VC input.. but this means a 2A 24V boost switcher, and a 3.3V 500mA buck switcher...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on February 01, 2013, 04:04:10 pm
19V?, why? (what does this have?, havent checked yet)

But I have an 19V hakko dc controller clone from ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/130620434360 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/130620434360)
And people here said that it was proably an bad design since it only used 19volt?
With an old dell psu, 19-19.5 volts, 3.5 amps, it heats very fast and works kinda good.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 01, 2013, 04:06:19 pm
[quote author="neslekkim"]yes, I will do that, I will find a way to heat it to an given temperature and measure, I have some other sensors that I can use to check with at the same time.[/quote]

well those tips can be swapped online so just heat it up normally in your soldering iron, then when it reaches the temp take it out and connect input from that board to the pins of the tip and see what temp it will show (if any)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 01, 2013, 04:06:56 pm
[quote author="neslekkim"]maybe next gen of this board could have the Iron part on an daugther card, so one can take the card one needs, like now,  Ithink there are lots of parts that you really don't need if you are using this or that iron..[/quote]

it's open source - feel free to work on next gen
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on February 01, 2013, 04:12:42 pm
hehe, first I have to understand this one.. so far I have only soldered components, and tried to understand your explanations when you have answered my questions.
I want to learn the principals of it, and see how it actually works, and I want to create an PCB for smd instead, but my first stumbling steps in Eagle are not so promising :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on February 01, 2013, 04:14:09 pm
[quote author="neslekkim"]19V?, why? (what does this have?, havent checked yet)

But I have an 19V hakko dc controller clone from ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/130620434360 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/130620434360)
And people here said that it was proably an bad design since it only used 19volt?
With an old dell psu, 19-19.5 volts, 3.5 amps, it heats very fast and works kinda good.[/quote]

Those clones, only PWM the 19V signal and provide only 30W of power max... You need a 2A booster to get it to 24v and then PWM it...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on February 01, 2013, 04:16:29 pm
Hmm a modular design is not a bad idea, Perhaps PID controller on one board, one board for input power supply and heater control, and one for the temperature sensor...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arakis on February 01, 2013, 04:28:40 pm
[quote author="neslekkim"]hehe, first I have to understand this one.. so far I have only soldered components, and tried to understand your explanations when you have answered my questions.
I want to learn the principals of it, and see how it actually works, and I want to create an PCB for smd instead, but my first stumbling steps in Eagle are not so promising :)[/quote]

The original version designed by arhi is SMD..

How it works is relativly simple, you have a analog front end in which can work with k-type thermocouple, or thermistors.. it convertes temperature into 0-5V analog signal , I belive 100C/V is the rating ..

there is a heater controll part that switches the heater on and off, and the mcu part which controlls the whole shabang. :)
also DC/DC  converter to drop the 24VAC to 5V DC  for the MCU and LCD...
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 01, 2013, 05:05:32 pm
[quote author="neslekkim"]hehe, first I have to understand this one.. so far I have only soldered components, and tried to understand your explanations when you have answered my questions.
I want to learn the principals of it, and see how it actually works, and I want to create an PCB for smd instead, but my first stumbling steps in Eagle are not so promising :)[/quote]

You do not have to do it in eagle :D (I didn't), and if you read the thread from the beginning you'll figure out how it works :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 01, 2013, 05:16:25 pm
if one wanna make a modular one it's a workable thing, the problem is price, this was a dirt cheap solution if you have a 24VAC transformer to get to drive 10$ soldering iron .. super cheap, super simple.. firmware is nothing fancy, simple pid control and that's it, ugly menu system (I actually hoped someone would redesign that part but..) ..

anyhow, you can do
 - motherboard with bus connector
 - one (or many) soldering iron boards sitting on the bus

But I do not like the idea, it will get big and expensive ...

Next generation should be able to do
 - both DC and AC driving of the iron (this generation already does this, only the DP's version does not, mine, original version does)
 - When driving with DC - drive with DC and not PWM (this is new)
 - Ability to boost DC voltage (so that can be powered from car 12V adapter or cheap 19V laptop adapter .. basically 12-30VDC input
 - Ability to run iron with separate sensor RTD and TC (this we have already)
 - Ability to run iron with 3 wire (RTC/TC + Heater with a common wire) - This we need to support JBC type tips
 - Ability to run iron with 2 wire where resistance of the heater is the "sense" - This is for e.g. PACE TD100 tips
 - Ability to run iron with 2 wire where heater is also TC - this is for e.g. this HAKKO T12
 - sleep and boost functions (we already have this)

Now, if we also add a batch mode with thermal profile we can drive a hot plate / reflow oven with the same electronics, but this is really just a firmware issue and question of LCD choice (you want to have GFX lcd when you do reflow stuff :D )

I don't really care to make this (I have enough soldering irons at home and they all work better then I need them and I will be making dedicated hot plate + toaster oven driver soon) but I can help if anyone will be making one
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on February 01, 2013, 09:10:23 pm
For my self, I have hot air (atten 858d+), hakko fx888d, hakko fx951(non-working clone), the dc-controller with two hakko 907 pencils, so I also have enough, but for some reason this kind of thing is interresting to learn about, temperaturecontrol etc.
I have temperaturecontrolled fridge for my beer, planned to control an freezer, had ideas about reprogramming my beerboiler so I could program profiles and do logging in an better way.
And in all this, an solderstation controller does all of it, in an better way, and makes everthing kinda easier to experiment with and learn how to do this kind of stuff.
I have read lot of these threads, but I'm going to start again, and follow the schemas so it will make more sense.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on February 01, 2013, 09:11:55 pm
[quote author="arhi"][quote author="neslekkim"]hehe, first I have to understand this one.. so far I have only soldered components, and tried to understand your explanations when you have answered my questions.
I want to learn the principals of it, and see how it actually works, and I want to create an PCB for smd instead, but my first stumbling steps in Eagle are not so promising :)[/quote]

You do not have to do it in eagle :D (I didn't), and if you read the thread from the beginning you'll figure out how it works :D[/quote]

If I use Eagle,KiCad, Designspark etc, I don't think it matters, the pcb routing part is kinda strange experience, the people who created this stuff did newer try an normal dravingprogram it seems (Well, I havent tested KiCad so maybe that one is better in that aspect, but I doubt it)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 01, 2013, 11:18:46 pm
pcb cad should work differently from a drawing program :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on February 01, 2013, 11:44:41 pm
yes ofcourse ;), what I experienced was that when I routed with Net in eagle, i suddenly got lot of strange bends on the traces, I didn't yet find a way how to move the polygonpoints to get the bends and corners in correct place. But I guess time will make me find out.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on February 05, 2013, 10:11:00 am
Here is the other schematics that I found for T12
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on February 05, 2013, 10:18:59 am
In the last picture the diode D1 is used to limit the voltage on the input of LM358 to 0.7V, so the zener in my schematic should work
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on February 08, 2013, 11:48:46 am
I have some news. I can't confirm but I have information that the T12 tips have a N type thermocouple.

And here is another scheme
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: paiano84 on February 08, 2013, 11:52:35 am
hi
Anyone can give me the debounce autorepeat firmware? i have also this problem, the station works well but every time that restart it displays "SELECT SENSOR CUSTOM".i used a hakko 907.
If i press reset button all is ok,it displays "target 5" and "current 18".what can i do?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on February 08, 2013, 06:55:21 pm
I have posted my changes to arhi's code in this thread. You can find it here:
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2457&start=495#p41587 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2457&start=495#p41587)

A link to Arhi's source can be found in the first post of this thread. Just replace the two files from above into the source below and compile.

Regarding the driver going into calibration mode, it turns out this was a bug caused by the low pass filter for the temperature amplifier-- I put in the filter, arhi built his without filtering. Long story short was that firmware was checking amplifier value before it had a chance to settle, determined it was out of bounds and started the calibration routine. You can read about it here:

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2457&start=480#p41234 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2457&start=480#p41234)

Arhi made changes to the firmware to fix this issue. I take it you built the board with low pass filtering. Which firmware are you using?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: paiano84 on February 09, 2013, 09:53:46 am
thanks for your reply. i built the trought all version with "r34 firmware button". is ther anything wrong? I'm Italian and I can not follow the thread without errors :-(
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on February 09, 2013, 11:06:21 am
is the sources in sourcecontrol somewhere?, git, googlecode, etc?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 09, 2013, 12:04:56 pm
[quote author="neslekkim"]is the sources in sourcecontrol somewhere?, git, googlecode, etc?[/quote]

I'm not a big google fan so if you look at the first post you will see that it's moved to sourceforge

that goes here: http://sid.crsndoo.com/ (http://sid.crsndoo.com/) (really a sourceforge project page)

you click on "get sources" and it sends you to http://sourceforge.net/scm/?type=svn&group_id=776771 (http://sourceforge.net/scm/?type=svn&group_id=776771)

to dl code via svn
Code: [Select]
svn co https://arhimed-sid.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/arhimed-sid arhimed-sid

to browse: http://arhimed-sid.svn.sourceforge.net/ ... ID_GEN4.X/ (http://arhimed-sid.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/arhimed-sid/SID/SID_GEN4.X/)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on February 09, 2013, 12:13:19 pm
ok, sourceforge doesn't seem to respond..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 09, 2013, 12:48:52 pm
?!
works perfectly from here
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on February 09, 2013, 01:57:08 pm
yeah, my fault, I copied to much from the svn url and tried to use repo browser in tortoisesvn which did not work, so I tried to browse via the sourforge url, and that did not work either, so I thought SF was down.
Now the browselink works, so I saw my error with the url ;)

What did DP do with their source, is it exactly the same firmware source for both projects?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 09, 2013, 02:23:18 pm
[quote author="neslekkim"]
What did DP do with their source, is it exactly the same firmware source for both projects?[/quote]

the is no DP source. they only made the trough hole pcb design
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: paiano84 on February 09, 2013, 07:56:44 pm
[quote author="pjkim"]I have posted my changes to arhi's code in this thread. You can find it here:
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2457&start=495#p41587 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2457&start=495#p41587)

A link to Arhi's source can be found in the first post of this thread. Just replace the two files from above into the source below and compile.

Regarding the driver going into calibration mode, it turns out this was a bug caused by the low pass filter for the temperature amplifier-- I put in the filter, arhi built his without filtering. Long story short was that firmware was checking amplifier value before it had a chance to settle, determined it was out of bounds and started the calibration routine. You can read about it here:

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2457&start=480#p41234 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2457&start=480#p41234)

Arhi made changes to the firmware to fix this issue. I take it you built the board with low pass filtering. Which firmware are you using?[/quote]

Done! all is ok, but the symbols vibrate too fast. The visualization is not perfect.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on February 10, 2013, 05:53:55 am
I am not sure what you mean by "symbols vibrate too fast." Can you describe and elaborate? Picture?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 10, 2013, 06:24:27 am
you used the changes that are not in svn? I will redo that changes and add them to main svn when I get some free time .. but the code from svn should be good enough
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: paiano84 on February 11, 2013, 07:12:05 pm
[quote author="pjkim"]I am not sure what you mean by "symbols vibrate too fast." Can you describe and elaborate? Picture?[/quote]

the refresh of characters is slow,when number changes the contrast vibrates. the picture does not allows to understand..
Can i upload a video?
Is normal that a resistance of 100 ohm shows a temperature of 283 celsius?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on February 11, 2013, 07:43:28 pm
Did you adjust the two trimpots for the PTC amplifier? The instructions are in a readme somewhere in the source code. I have also described here:
http://hardwhack.blogspot.com/2012/06/s ... -iron.html (http://hardwhack.blogspot.com/2012/06/so-i-finally-have-my-soldering-iron.html)

in steps 2 and 3. It adjusts the constant current source and the amplifier gain. That is as far as I got in terms of temp calibration-- I have not adjusted my temp coefficients. Close enough is close enough.

As for the flickering, have you tried adjusting the contrast and/or brightness adjustment pots? You might try taking a video, upload to youtube and give a link here.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: kind2011 on February 20, 2013, 12:22:41 am
hi i want to know what is the component ic that is in smd package,thanks
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pjkim on February 20, 2013, 09:10:53 pm
What smd package? The red boards (designed by Arakis and sold at Seeed Studio) are all through hole and the green one (the original design by ahri) is mostly if not entirely through hole if I am not mistaken. I can't see anything SMD in the board or photos except for his recreation of Stonehenge with SMD resistors.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 21, 2013, 06:51:56 am
Original board is mixed, mcu and power part are pth while analog part is smd.
The smd chip is MCP619

The DP's pcb (the one you can purchase from seeedstudio) is designed by Filip (arakis) as 100% pth and thread about it is here:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3475 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3475)

schematic is identical, firmware is identical (there is no firmware made by dp for it, so only one firmware exist), only the board layout is different (and only DP's board you ca purchase, I never sold my boards, made only one batch and gave extras to some ppl from the forum)

The "home page" for the SID is http://sid.crsndoo.com/ (http://sid.crsndoo.com/)
it's actually a sourceforge page, follow download and get sources links to get to files
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: jaromir on February 25, 2013, 02:36:38 pm
Maybe I overlooked something, but... I fell like the temperature - resistance table on 9th page of this thread doesn't work for me. I bought some chinese Hakko 907 soldering irons on Ebay, but the resistance at room temperature is somewhere around 60Ohm and not about 1Ohm. I heated it with hot air gun and the resistance increased, so it is probably PTC :) The other resistance on connector (which I consider to be heating element) changes its resistance only marginally and is about 10Ohm.

Could anybody bring more light on this?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 25, 2013, 02:59:55 pm
[quote author="jaromir"]Maybe I overlooked something, but... I fell like the temperature - resistance table on 9th page of this thread doesn't work for me. [/quote]

That is normal. Each handle has it's own table (each clone uses different RTD). That is why you have to calibrate.
The temp vs resistance curve is pretty straight between 180C (even 100C) and 450C and that is the region you want to use your iron with so you calibrate with 2 points and that's it. It's not perfectly accurate but more then enough for what it's purpose is. Below 100C the curve start to go crazy


[quote author="jaromir"]
I bought some chinese Hakko 907 soldering irons on Ebay, but the resistance at room temperature is somewhere around 60Ohm [/quote]

the room temp resistance does not really help much as the curve below 100C varies hugely between clones.

Did you make the electronics? If you did select "hakko original" it might work, there are also data in there for quick and gordak iirc so try them too see what works best for you, if not you will have to calibrate your iron

look at some tables here: http://elco.crsndoo.com/wordpress/2011/ ... -lemilice/ (http://elco.crsndoo.com/wordpress/2011/09/hakko-907-i-kompatibilne-lemilice/)

1.7R at 27C is one table (the one in the post)
then look in comments, there is another sensor with

60R at 77.6C (I think this one is around 40R at 25C)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: jaromir on February 25, 2013, 03:18:46 pm
I still have no electronics, just soldering iron, DMM and lot of confusion...
How do you do calibration? Is there some simple and repeatable process? Sorry if I ask something that was answered before, but this 41-page long thread is quite hard to follow.

Ebay-ers pretend their hakko-907 soldering iron to be compatible with hakko-936, but this one has really different T/R values http://www.auelectronics.com/forum/inde ... tml#msg512 (http://www.auelectronics.com/forum/index.php/topic,208.msg512.html#msg512)
For now it looks more like hakko-936 values than those http://elco.crsndoo.com/wordpress/2011/ ... -lemilice/ (http://elco.crsndoo.com/wordpress/2011/09/hakko-907-i-kompatibilne-lemilice/)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 25, 2013, 03:41:38 pm
compare it to

60R 77.6C
70R 134.1C
80R 191.8C
90R 250.2C
100R 310.0C
110R 371.0C
120R 433.0C
130R 496.5C

if it follows that, when you make the electronics just chose "original hakko"
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: dtmf on March 10, 2013, 09:58:12 pm
My mini SMD version. Size=LCD : )
hakko 907 works great +- 0.5C , but weller pes 51 with +- 10 C.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 10, 2013, 10:50:14 pm
great work
share da pcb files :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: dtmf on March 11, 2013, 09:54:03 pm
For ref voltage i use TL431.
5V supply from 7812+7805 in series.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 13, 2013, 04:07:15 am
[quote author="dtmf"]hakko 907 works great +- 0.5C , but weller pes 51 with +- 10 C.[/quote]

btw you are using my firmware from sourceforge?
if you are then it's expected for hakko to work great and weller to be off target. The PID parameters by default are tuned for hakko. You will have to tune pid parameters for PES51 to get it to be as accurate
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: dtmf on March 13, 2013, 05:37:28 pm
Thank you for info.
Now i will read all post for corect PID settings for TK sensors, because i prefer PES 51 with original tips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP13FNL4hxU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP13FNL4hxU)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 13, 2013, 09:56:00 pm
I never tried to setup PID values for PES51 so you'll have to do the work from scratch

your video don't work (youtube) - it;s 0sec long
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on March 13, 2013, 10:01:43 pm
The video works fine..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 13, 2013, 10:03:44 pm
[quote author="arhi"]
your video don't work (youtube) - it;s 0sec long[/quote]

It works on my home and work PC.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 13, 2013, 10:51:10 pm
works now, must be something with youtube ..

there's 30+ C discrepancy between the temp on the tip and what you see on sid - are you compensating for the room temp or ?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: dtmf on March 15, 2013, 06:30:39 pm
And comparison with China Hakko 907 from ebay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2SLuDZlYeE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2SLuDZlYeE)

30C is not problem, this is only test, has trimmer for correction.

Now i waiting Hakko with T12 tips for experiments, driver is universal too, from ebay.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 15, 2013, 07:24:03 pm
Is it this driver?
(http://http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Soldering-Iron-Station-Temperature-Controller-For-HAKKO-936-T12-T1-T13-Handle-/00/s/MjYzWDUyNw==/$(KGrHqJHJEMFDRp-2Q,jBQ5Z8Qu5Hg~~60_3.JPG)

I am curious to see the schematics if available.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on March 16, 2013, 12:15:59 am
I think the schematic of this board is based on what I posted on page 37
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: dtmf on March 17, 2013, 12:01:03 am
some pictures

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW4JSTdZy3I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW4JSTdZy3I)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on April 12, 2013, 11:12:32 am
Some info about JBC C245 tips you may find helpfull:

Connections:
[attachment=0]

It behaves like it has a type C thermocouple. It sends more or less half the voltage of the K type thermocouple.

Because the (-) connection of the thermocouple is shared with the heater and the T245 handpiece is using 3 wires to connect to the soldering station, the measurements should be made with no power to the iron, because when there is a power to the iron, the small voltage drops on the cable and cable connections from controller to the tip are making the measurement erratic.

Be aware that if you are using 24V power, the maximum power delivered to the C245 tip should be limited in some way, because these tips have extremely  low resistance - around 3 ohms. This was made for fast heat up, and the heat up is really fast - aronud 2 seconds from room temperature to 350 degrees celsius, but the nominal power of the tips is stated as 50W (peak power 130W), so I doubt these tips will live long if they are constantly abused this way. I suspect the original JBC controller uses 130W only when fast heat-up is needed - when powering the controller for the first time or when the controller wakes up from sleep/standby.

IMHO, the hand piece and the tips are very well made, and very compact (C210 tips are even smaller), with good quality.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on April 13, 2013, 02:28:09 am
I've worked a few years with stations that used C245 tips and heated really fast. In terms of durability I can say that they last long. The hand piece is very small, lightweight and easy to handle.
For me JBC is JBC and is not comparable, but it is expensive and there is no Chinese clones
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on April 13, 2013, 03:43:19 am
Here is a video comparing them with chinese T12:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8EptN6d ... e=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8EptN6dwos&feature=youtu.be)

C245 heats up two times faster than Hakko T12. Two soldering controllers are completely identical.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on July 11, 2013, 06:25:46 pm
arhi, are you completely sure that the heater resistance is used for sensing the temperature of PACE TD100 tips?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on July 11, 2013, 09:10:49 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]arhi, are you completely sure that the heater resistance is used for sensing the temperature of PACE TD100 tips?[/quote]

man I am not "completely sure" about what day it is .. being completely sure about how TD100 works is far from reality :( .. it's just what I was told by someone working as PACE "representative"

now, what I do have is some pictures I took of my pace station and my td100 pencil that I placed on my blog..

The TD100 pencil has 4 wires on the connector (4wires going trough cable).
The TD100 pencil uses "IntelliHeat" technology (whatever that is - but it somehow identifies to the driver)

On the tip, there is 3 visible connections, one is "body" that's ESD/Earth/Ground and is ~5M towards other 2 pins. Other 2 pins are pure 4R resistance (no voltage even when I heat it). And that's it. That is why I assume body is ESD, 2 pins are heater+sense.

Now on the bottom of the tip there is a miniature hole, in theory a small wire could go in as a fourth terminal but I honestly don't think it would make sense as it's very tiny and no guide so one would have to place tip in very carefully ... anyhow when I do push a thin piece of wire in that hole it's shorted to one of the 2 side terminals...

The tips I have I paid dearly for and I don't have easy access to new tips so for now chance of me cutting the tip to see what's inside is none. I should be able to open the handle to clean it up but I tried and there was no way to pry it open so I gave up before I break it .. so nothing from that also .. if you have some info, please share. I mostly believe the sensing of temp is done trough heater current 'cause I see driver is cleaning the power pretty neatly and there is a nice big precise shunt resistor on the board so a very precise reading of the current trough heater can be measured... I doubt they'd do it for no reason :D

share if you find any real data
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on July 11, 2013, 10:07:58 pm
Thank for sharing your knowledge. :)

I asked this question because the new version of my controller can make pretty precise measurements of the heater resistance and can use it as a temperature sensor. Maybe I will buy a handle + tip to test how it performs, and I need to be sure it is not a thermocouple, or it will just be a waste of money if it is.

By the way, I don't know if you have tested a JBC C245 handpiece, but I can strongly recommend it to anyone. Much, much better then everything I was able to put my hands on. 3 ohm constant resistance, very compact (smaller than T12), heats up VERY quick, and has quite good feedback from the thermocouple inside it. The only shortcomming is it's price - 22+ EUR per tip. But many people on the net are saying these tips last forever.

P.S.: By the way, have you measured if the resistance is changing while you heat up the tip?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on July 17, 2013, 06:45:37 pm
I just got a PACE TD100 tip, and... it is using a thermocouple, just like HAKKO T12 does.

It is building around 17.4uV per degree celsius on the terminals when heated. Absolutely identical to HAKKO T12 on this.

There's an PACE TD100 handles wired for HAKKO FM102 station on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PACE-TD-100-con ... 0529678281 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/PACE-TD-100-converted-for-HAKKO-FM102-FP102-New-in-Box-No-reserve-/400529678281)

So, consider PACE TD100 tip = HAKKO T12 tip.

Of course PACE tip has half the resistance of HAKKO T12 tip (both chinese and original), and it will heat up much faster. Is is also good for working with lower voltages. It will give 36W when connected to 12V compared to 18W for HAKKO T12.

And, the biggest advantage - tip prices are almost 50% lower than original HAKKO T12 ot JBC C245, so it is clearly the best choice when you are looking for non-chinese tips on a fair price.

However, in terms of quality, JBC C245 is still my favorite. The handpiece is absolutely goregeous, and the tips are powerfull and compact.

Here is a direct comparison (top - chinese HAKKO T12, then orignal HAKKO T15, then PACE TD100, then JBC C245):
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on July 18, 2013, 12:08:59 am
Confirmed - if someone owns HAKKO T12/T15 soldering controller, it can drive PACE TD100. The only thing to consider is the lower resistance - PACE TD100 on 24V gives 144W of power, which can be a problem if the controller does not have an option to limit the maximum power to the tip.

...and It heats up REALLY FAST! 150-450 degrees Celsius in 2 seconds! :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on July 19, 2013, 11:37:49 am
Some more findings - the thermocouple is obviously a non-standart one. I think It is either NiChrome (80%Nickel 20% chrome), or Kanthal D (FeCrAl 74.7%/20.5%/4.8%) or Kanthal A1 (FeCrAl 73.7%/20.5%/5.8%), or something similar on one side, and perhaps pure Nickel on the other side. I will be able to check this out in a week or so (just ordered the materials from Germany). Pure nickel wire is the one that I am not sure of, but combining this with both Nichrome or Kanthal gives more or less the same voltage when heated, so the critical material is not that on heater, but the other one. Nichrome and Kanthal resistance is close to what I measured on heater resistance of one of the T12 tips I disassembled.

These must be readily available cheap materials, able to do both a thermocouple and heater. Kanthal and Nichrome are widely used for heaters, and pure Nickel is also widely available. For K type thermocouple (the cheapest one) there is chromel (90% Ni, 10% Cr) and Alumel (95% Ni, 2% Mn, 2% Al, 1% Si) used, but gives different voltage.

Anyway, hopefully soon I will be able to tell what material is used for heater and thermocouple in T12/T15/TD100 tips.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on July 20, 2013, 02:24:08 am
That's good news about PACE TD100 tips. Too bad they are not very easy to find and cheap here.
You're giving us a new light about information yet unknown of that soldering stations.
If we know what kind of material is inside the tips we can determine with greater precision any temperature.
Thanks for your work.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on July 20, 2013, 03:03:37 am
[quote author="diogoc"]...here...[/quote]

Where is "here"?
Are you not able to buy from Farnell/Newark?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on July 20, 2013, 09:08:26 am
In Portugal Farnell does not sell to individual customers, only to companies.
And the shipping is a bit expensive, only worth for large orders.
The ebay is an alternative.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Hobbyist on July 20, 2013, 09:06:09 pm
Last topic seems quite interesting!
Sparky, how can I calculate (predict) the voltage of the thermocouple, if, for instance, I use Kanthal vs Ni like thermocouple. Probably I will find some data for the materials in the web, but are they sufficient to create good temperature range table? The manufacturers use their own-design thermocouples (at least I know this info from experienced guys working in this area), so it is a kind of company's secret. In this case (at least for me) the most reliable method is voltage measurement of the present thermocouple for the interested temp. range. Is this your intention - to create a thermocouple with suspected materials and then measurements?
Anyway, if you have clue or data for some analytic method, formulas etc.., please share with us!
Greets!
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on July 20, 2013, 10:07:23 pm
[quote author="Hobbyist"]Last topic seems quite interesting!
Sparky, how can I calculate (predict) the voltage of the thermocouple, if, for instance, I use Kanthal vs Ni like thermocouple. Probably I will find some data for the materials in the web, but are they sufficient to create good temperature range table? The manufacturers use their own-design thermocouples (at least I know this info from experienced guys working in this area), so it is a kind of company's secret. In this case (at least for me) the most reliable method is voltage measurement of the present thermocouple for the interested temp. range. Is this your intention - to create a thermocouple with suspected materials and then measurements?
Anyway, if you have clue or data for some analytic method, formulas etc.., please share with us!
Greets![/quote]

The voltage of the thermocouple depends on difference in absolute Seebeck coefficients of the two metals/alloys that are used for this thermocouple. The Seebeck coefficients for pure nickel at different temperatures are more or less well known, although data for this is a bit hard to find. The Seebeck coefficients for Chromel (that is, 90% nickel and 10% chrome) are also well known.

For pure Nickel, the absolute Seebeck coefficient is around -15uV per degree Celsius (it changes with temperature), and for Chromel it is around +25uV per degree celsius, again changing with temperature, and as a result, the thermocouple that uses these two metals will give around 40uV per degree Celsius. That is, almost type K thermocouple. A real type K thermocouple uses Alumel (95% Ni, 2% Mn, 2% Al, 1% Si) in order to suppress some effects pure Nickel has around 370 degrees Celsius, and gives more or less the same voltage as when pure Nickel is used.

However, I was not able to find any data for Nichrome (that is, 80% Ni and 20% Cr), so I am unavle to bredict what would be the voltage of this before making real worls measurements. The same is for Khantal D (20.5% Ni, 4.8% Al, the rest - Fe) - there is no data.

Seeing this, and knowing that Nichrome(80% Ni + 20% Cr) is as widely used for heaters as Khantal, and is not that different than Chromel (90% Ni + 10% Cr), I think it will be a good candidate for useable thermocouple with pure Nickel, but I cannot speculate what the voltage will be, considering that when only 10% Cr are added to pure Nickel, it changes it's Seebeck coefficient from -15 to +25.

But, I made some measurements with the wires from tha disassembled T12 tip - both original heater material and Khantal gives pretty close voltage, when connected as a thermocouple to the unknown metal from the T12 tip (which I think is pure Nickel or Alumel). And I can confirm that the original heater material is not Khantal, because when connected to Khantal as a thermocouple it also gives a small voltage, to indicate itself as a different material then Khantal. Then, cosidering that the other widely used heater material instead of Khantal is Nichrome, I can conclude there is pretty big chance that the heater material is Nichrome, moreover, similar to Nichrome material is used in a K type thermocouple, in which the other material can be both pure Nickel or Alumel.

In short - we cannot speculate about the voltage of Nichrome - Nickel thermocouple without measuring it, because there is no data for Nichrome Seebeck coefficients.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on July 29, 2013, 08:54:38 pm
Just tried Nickel-Kanthal A1 as a thermocouple. It gives something around 3mV at 183-200 degrees celsius. Room temperature is around 31 degrees, so it is something like 3mv/150-170 degrees celsius, which is around 17-19uV per degree. Pretty close to T12/PACE TD100 tips.

I will try Nickel-Nichrome TC these days (I am waiting for Nichrome to arrive), but Nickel-Kanthal thermocouple definitely works and is one of the candidates.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on July 31, 2013, 06:31:35 pm
Just tried Nickel-Nichrome. It gives considerably higher voltage. So, most likely the thermocouple of T12 and PACE TD100 is Nickel - Kanthtal D or Nickel-Kanthal A1.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Moein on August 02, 2013, 01:08:34 am
Hi people,

Can someone tell me what is the recommend transformer VA rating for this project?

Cheers,
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on August 02, 2013, 10:47:25 am
It depends on what iron you will use. The transformer or power supply VA rating must exceed the iron wattage by at least 20%.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sale030 on August 28, 2013, 05:07:12 pm
Hi guys,
I am new here, very nice project. I want to try this controller also for driving heat air hendle. But, what's happend with dtmf's pcb? Will be nice to share that pcb with us.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: aramosfet on September 04, 2013, 12:06:38 pm
Hi all,

I'm interested in building this driver and use it with a Hakko 907 clone off ebay. But I'm hesitant to buy from unknown sellers on ebay. Can some one suggest a seller/ ebay link that you have used and are satisfied with? One that will work with the driver designed here will be useful.

Thanks.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ican on January 16, 2014, 05:27:53 am
I just got a Pace to Hakko FP-102 converted handpiece and I'm wondering what I would need to do to make it work with your driver or the driver that Dangerous Prototypes is selling.  I know the pace tip is different than the Hakko 907, and I was planning on building a custom driver board, but thought I'd ask about yours first to see if you've tested the FP-102 connector with your board.  Thanks in advance for any info you can provide.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on January 16, 2014, 08:46:08 am
Pace is not so different. :) It is more powerfull and fast, but uses the same type of series thermocouple. Some (if not most) controllers for HAKKO FP-102 (that is T12/T15 tips) might be able to control PACE TD-100 and vice versa. I've tried this myself.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ican on January 16, 2014, 06:25:38 pm
Sparky, my question is if I can use it with this driver kit... I already knows it works with the fp102... But I do appreciate the info... :-)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ican on January 17, 2014, 04:00:34 am
Wait... did I catch that right?  TD-100 tips have a series thermocouple?

Does anyone know the pinouts for a Hakko FP-101/102/201/202 station?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on January 17, 2014, 11:21:01 am
[quote author="ican"]Wait... did I catch that right?  TD-100 tips have a series thermocouple?[/quote]

Yes, that's right. Moreover - the thermocouple is exactly the same as that on Hakko T12/T15 tips.

TD100 are more powerful and fast - 4 ohm heater resistance vs 8 - 9 ohm for HAKKO T12/T15, so this is a thing to consider when trying TD100 on T12/T15 controller.

Here you can see the comparison between two:

PACE TD100:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ2CaepG9es (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ2CaepG9es)

Chinese HAKKO T12 on the same controller:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD_6a1AMPBU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD_6a1AMPBU)
Title: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron driver
Post by: criss.ml on January 23, 2014, 09:10:37 pm
[quote author="dtmf"]My mini SMD version. Size=LCD : )
hakko 907 works great +- 0.5C , but weller pes 51 with +- 10 C.[/quote]

Love this board......Something like this i would definitely buy. ;)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron driver
Post by: criss.ml on January 23, 2014, 09:10:52 pm
[quote author="dtmf"]My mini SMD version. Size=LCD : )
hakko 907 works great +- 0.5C , but weller pes 51 with +- 10 C.[/quote]

Love this board......Something like this i would definitely buy. ;)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron driver
Post by: criss.ml on February 08, 2014, 12:17:25 pm
Small question:

- can someone estimate the price for the components for the soldering iron driver board ??
- whats the official part list ??? I want able to find it...
-is this design stable ??? I dont want to debug that much...


I figured out this project is great , the advantage is not only the price:
Its even better than an original soldering station because you are not STUCK with jus one brand for handles or tips.
I think i will get an original weller handle and cloned 907 :)



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: protons on February 26, 2014, 03:52:20 pm
Hi!
I have JBC 245 soldering handpice with tip,
''sparkybg" did you can give correct schematic how connect JBC solder iron to schematic what is in first page postes,
Also what temperature sensor is standing in weller PSW51
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 26, 2014, 03:59:36 pm
[quote author="protons"]what temperature sensor is standing in weller PSW51[/quote]

pes51? thermocouple
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: protons on February 27, 2014, 10:26:44 am
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2457&start=180 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2457&start=180)

In this link is sad that

Board can read PTC/RTD and K-type thermocouple as a main temperature probels
For PTC/RTD operation (HAKKO, WELLER etc)

Its mean that weller not use thermocouple, i check with tester and
post resistance changes depending on the temperature
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 27, 2014, 12:29:37 pm
[quote author="protons"]weller not use thermocouple, i check with tester and
post resistance changes depending on the temperature[/quote]

weller uses many different sensors on different handles. from using curie point of magnets in the tip in magnastat irons (the most precise one where you select temperature by using respective tip), using PT100 sensors in most variable temperature irons to using thermocouple in PES51 and some other irons ...

so if you ask about PES51 - it's thermocouple, if you ask about some other iron then you have to specify correct model
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on February 27, 2014, 01:04:12 pm
[quote author="arhi"]...magnastat irons (the most precise one...[/quote]
Magnastat performs simple hysteretic control, like most cheap chinese soldering stations do today. I doubt this is too precise. :) Moreover, you cannot put the magnastat magnet as close to the tip as you can put a thermocpuple or similar sensor. So, again, this is a technology from the past, and far from any precision, compared to many of today's irons (your TD100 for example).

IMHO, anyway. :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on February 27, 2014, 01:15:28 pm
[quote author="protons"]
Its mean that weller not use thermocouple, i check with tester and
post resistance changes depending on the temperature[/quote]

Hehe, of course your multimeter will see a changing resistance. The voltage from the thermocouple fools it.

Now set the multimeter to measure millivolts, and do the same. You will see several tens of millivolts on the terminals when heated to 300-500 degrees Celsius.

The proper way to find out what sensor there is is to measure the voltage first, and if there is no voltage or the voltage is less than 4-5 millivolts at around 400 degrees, then proceed with the resistance check. The resistance itself must change by a fair amount - at least 20-30% between room temperature and 400 degrees Celsius.

Also, it is nice to have a multimeter that measures the offset voltage while measures the resistance. This way it cannot be fooled by the thermocouple voltage, but will always show the correct resistance and the correct offset voltage. Unfortunately, these multimeters are expensive in most cases. For example, my Agilent U1272A can do this. It shows the correct resistance, and in the same time shows any offset voltage present.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 27, 2014, 01:18:47 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"][quote author="arhi"]...magnastat irons (the most precise one...[/quote]
Magnastat performs simple hysteretic control, like most cheap chinese soldering stations do today. I doubt this is too precise. :) Moreover, you cannot put the magnastat magnet as close to the tip as you can put a thermocpuple or similar sensor.[/quote]

magnastat magnet is IN THE TIP itself, so it's a chunk of copper with magnet.
if you press fit the thermocuple in the tip of the tip and plot a graph of the temperature of the tip's tip (the part you solder with) and solder you will see drop's of below 5C !!! (I tried). On the other hand PES51 (the fairly new weller) has thermocuple that is in metal tube that goes into the tip but still insulated by air from the tip itself. When you press fit the thermocouple into PES51 tip and measure temperature of the tip's tip while soldering there are 50+C drops (more then 30C difference between real temperature of the tip and temperature measured temperature by PES51 sensor!!!)

The "mine TD100" is same crap, even with the cartridge where sensor is closer to the tip then on irons with "passive" tips the measure temperature of the tip's tip and the measured temperature of the sensor differ more then 10C.

I have not tried HAKKO and JBC cartridges but I was told it's exactly the same problem. Now on PACE it's not same on every tip, some massive tips I have feature the sensor closer to the tip so the temp difference is not higher then 5C but fine tips (like microwave 2.5mm) temp difference between real tip temp and measured tip temp is huge (more then 15C)

So wrt magnastat, I do agree it's thing of the past but not 'cause it's not precise, thing is so precise it hurts, there's nothing as precise as it is and I really tried lot of irons, it's just that magnastat is too slow and unusable for modern smd where you want to quickly tweak temperature, where you want to use fancy tips (e.g. microwave), where you want ability to quickly change tip .. but precision ... don't say it's not precise :)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on February 27, 2014, 01:43:09 pm
[quote author="arhi"]
The "mine TD100" is same crap, even with the cartridge where sensor is closer to the tip then on irons with "passive" tips the measure temperature of the tip's tip and the measured temperature of the sensor differ more then 10C.
[/quote]

Of course it will differ more. The tip of the TD100 is microscopic compared to magnastat. It does not have enough heat accumulated in it in order to hold temperature like considerably bigger magnastat. TD100 is made for speed.

I don't know what kind of magnastat you made your measurements on, but if not comparable in size with TD100's tip, it won't give you the real picture.

For example, a fair comparison would be Magnastat to something like JBC C470 cartridges.

IMHO, again.

Try JBC if you get a chance. It is way better than both HAKKO T12 or TD100. I have all of them and JBC C245 is my favorite in all respects.

P.S. By the way, i suspect the thermocouple of the JBC is something like Copper-Constantan, and the tip's copper itself is used directly for thermocouple. It is considerably more precise than Hakko T12 or Pace TD100 and with much less variations between different tips. For Pace and Hakko, it is normal to have more than 10 degrees difference between different tips. It is even mentioned in their user's manual. On JBC C245 the difference is not more than 3-4 degrees between different tips I have. These have separate wire for temperature measurement, and I suspect it is just a constantan wire making a contact with the tip's copper. This way it can be put much more closely to the tip's tip, not needing any insulation. If my suspicions are true, I cannot imagine more precise measurement than this.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 27, 2014, 02:09:09 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]
Of course it will differ more. The tip of the TD100 is microscopic compared to magnastat. It does not have enough heat accumulated in it in order to hold temperature like considerably bigger magnastat. TD100 is made for speed.
[/quote]

I don't actually agree :D
I do agree it's ok for TD100 to drop when you touch the solder joint if you are using tip with small thermal mass but it's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is actual temperature of the tip and temperature sensor is showing (not what driver read, I don't care what driver read, I care what actual sensor is showing reading it myself). And with TD100 with small tips it's too big of a difference as it looks like the heater in small tips don't go all the way to the tip and sensor is way closer to the heater then to the actual tip's tip so the sensor is showing much higher temp then what tip's tip is actually on. On "fatter" tips probably they have enough "space" inside to push the sensor all the way inside the tip's tip

[quote author="sparkybg"]
I don't know what kind of magnastat you made your measurements on, but if not comparable in size with TD100's tip, it won't give you the real picture.
[/quote]

completely irrelevant as with magnastat you have a chunk of copper (irrelevant how big) with magnet inside of it "measuring" the temperature of that chunk of copper while you have external heater heating up that chunk of copper. On PES51 for e.g. you have heater, sensor and tip as 3 separate parts and even worse on hakko you have sensor on heater and then that contraption is heating up the tip (so you actually measure how hot is your heater and not how hot is your tip, you have no clue what is the temp of the tip)

[quote author="sparkybg"]
For example, a fair comparison would be Magnastat to something like JBC C470 cartridges.
[/quote]
yes if you are comparing temp drop touching the solder point, not if we are talking about "how much sensor lies", there the mass of the tip is irrelevant


[quote author="sparkybg"]Try JBC if you get a chance. It is way better than both HAKKO T12 or TD100. I have all of them and JBC C245 is my favorite in all respects.[/quote]

I tried JBC, I even opened one and checked out the insides, I didn't cut any JBC tip to see what's in nor I tried to drive JBC cartridge myself but the station itself I did try. It's probably the wrong forum to talk about this but anyhow, when I decided to by PACE it was not because I read PACE is best and has best reviews etc, it was for a single reason only - I tried microwave tips and they freaking rock !!! PACE invented microwave tips and patented them. HAKKO is making microwave tips (does not work nearly as good as PACE, I got some and tried them) but selling them only in Russia and China (because of patent issues), Weller is selling microwave tips but have very limited offer and they are paying royalty to PACE for every tip sold so tips are expensive (I tried one, not as nice as angled pace but great whatsoever) and for JBC I did not find any mircowave tips at all (and if they have them they are probably like Weller paying royalty so again probably not too much choices and high price). That is the no1 reason I went with PACE. Now while going trough JBC, I was really not happy with some of the things I found inside, xtal that's dangling, non "attached" wires etc etc .. for the price (and the price was very high, higher then pace) the build quality was really "weird" .. but anyhow, the microwave is the reason I went with PACE .. the JBC's "powerful" handles were tempting (they have some 200+W handles iirc) but really I do 99% smd and I have 3 soldering irons on my desk, when I need to solder on some big cooler with huge thermal mass, I get a soldering iron I use only for that .. also the short handle like TD100 compared to fairly big handle JBC has .. dunno, I was not thinking about that then, but now when I got used to this short handles I hate, hate, hate long handles :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on February 27, 2014, 03:20:03 pm
[quote author="arhi"]
I don't actually agree :D
I do agree it's ok for TD100 to drop when you touch the solder joint if you are using tip with small thermal mass but it's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is actual temperature of the tip and temperature sensor is showing (not what driver read, I don't care what driver read, I care what actual sensor is showing reading it myself). And with TD100 with small tips it's too big of a difference as it looks like the heater in small tips don't go all the way to the tip and sensor is way closer to the heater then to the actual tip's tip so the sensor is showing much higher temp then what tip's tip is actually on. On "fatter" tips probably they have enough "space" inside to push the sensor all the way inside the tip's tip
[/quote]
Thermal mass is one thing, enough copper between the tip and the sensor is a different thing. When you have massive amount of copper between the tip's tip and the sensor, this makes a difference. And it makes it both on TD100 and on magnastat. Magnastat, being much more massive than TD100, has "tons" more copper between the tip and the magnet.

[quote author="arhi"]
completely irrelevant as with magnastat you have a chunk of copper (irrelevant how big) with magnet inside of it "measuring" the temperature of that chunk of copper while you have external heater heating up that chunk of copper.
[/quote]
The size is not irrelevant. You can put a sensor much closer to the tip than you can put the magnet to. The tip itself must have close enough copper in it and close enough dimensions, and close enough copper between the sensor and the tip. Of course, one big advantage of the magnet is that it does not care about room temperature and so on - it just cares about real temperature where it is.

[quote author="arhi"]
 On PES51 for e.g. you have heater, sensor and tip as 3 separate parts and even worse on hakko you have sensor on heater and then that contraption is heating up the tip (so you actually measure how hot is your heater and not how hot is your tip, you have no clue what is the temp of the tip)
[/quote]
PES51 is not a benchmark for anything. Although it is more precise than tons of chinese copies of this and that, it is just an ordinary old-fashioned hand piece. Nothing more.

As for Hakko/TD100 - You can actually remove the error form heating the thermocouple when the heater is on, but the deficiencies are more than one:
- Thermocouple materials are not precise. Heater material is meant for doing heaters from it, so the alloy is not as precise as it should be for good thermocouple.
- Insulation is needed between the thermocouple and the tip.
- The tip itself is a bit "skinny". You must put the heater and the sensor in it, and in the same time you must have enough copper there. It is hard to do, and eben harder on tips with very small dimensions (i.e. SMT).
- The heater has inductance. This further prevents precise measurements. Although the firmware can be made to  make statistics of the heater temperature with switching on and off and can remove pretty big part of this out, it still brings error to measurements. Different tips behave pretty differently in this respect, so it is impossible to compansate 100% of this error. That's why Hakko now makes a tips with barcode on it, which the statin reads when you put the tip on.

[quote author="arhi"]
yes if you are comparing temp drop touching the solder point, not if we are talking about "how much sensor lies", there the mass of the tip is irrelevant
[/quote]
Not just temp drop. Again - when you have big enough tip, you have big enough amount of copper between the tip and the sensor.

[quote author="arhi"]
I tried JBC, I even opened one and checked out the insides, I didn't cut any JBC tip to see what's in nor I tried to drive JBC cartridge myself but the station itself I did try. It's probably the wrong forum to talk about this but anyhow, when I decided to by PACE it was not because I read PACE is best and has best reviews etc, it was for a single reason only - I tried microwave tips and they freaking rock !!! PACE invented microwave tips and patented them. HAKKO is making microwave tips (does not work nearly as good as PACE, I got some and tried them) but selling them only in Russia and China (because of patent issues), Weller is selling microwave tips but have very limited offer and they are paying royalty to PACE for every tip sold so tips are expensive (I tried one, not as nice as angled pace but great whatsoever) and for JBC I did not find any mircowave tips at all (and if they have them they are probably like Weller paying royalty so again probably not too much choices and high price). That is the no1 reason I went with PACE. Now while going trough JBC, I was really not happy with some of the things I found inside, xtal that's dangling, non "attached" wires etc etc .. for the price (and the price was very high, higher then pace) the build quality was really "weird" .. but anyhow, the microwave is the reason I went with PACE .. the JBC's "powerful" handles were tempting (they have some 200+W handles iirc) but really I do 99% smd and I have 3 soldering irons on my desk, when I need to solder on some big cooler with huge thermal mass, I get a soldering iron I use only for that .. also the short handle like TD100 compared to fairly big handle JBC has .. dunno, I was not thinking about that then, but now when I got used to this short handles I hate, hate, hate long handles :D[/quote][/quote][/quote]

I am only talking about the tips. They don't have any deficiencies TD100 and HAKKO T12 tips do have. That's all.

About microwave - can you please explain further what this is and what it does? I cannot find such information on PACE site.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 27, 2014, 03:59:31 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]
Thermal mass is one thing, enough copper between the tip and the sensor is a different thing.
[/quote]

it's not the amount of copper between tip and sensor as much as amount of copper between tip and sensor vs amount of copper between sensor and heater :D, most of these problems come from not "small tip" but sensor being too close to heater.

[quote author="sparkybg"]
PES51 is not a benchmark for anything. Although it is more precise than tons of chinese copies of this and that, it is just an ordinary old-fashioned hand piece. Nothing more.
[/quote]

this started as guy asked about PES51 sensor and how it's better then magnastat and how magnastat is not good. I don't say PES51 is "benchmark", it's rather poor design imo.

[quote author="sparkybg"]
I am only talking about the tips. They don't have any deficiencies TD100 and HAKKO T12 tips do have. That's all.
[/quote]

hm, I didn't see that JBC tips are in any way better then tips that go into TD100, can you explain this better?

[quote author="sparkybg"]
About microwave - can you please explain further what this is and what it does? I cannot find such information on PACE site.[/quote]

it's very simple, you have a "pool" on the tip where solder collects. if you fill the pool you dragsolder and it perfectly release only the amount of solder needed to properly solder a hundreds of small pins, you select size of the pool (tip) to match the pitch. If you on the other hand "empty" the pool (you clean the tip) you can "suck" extra solder (for e.g. solder bridge) without need for wick or vacuum .. like I said, I went out and gave 400eur for a soldering iron while already having 4+ soldering irons at home just because of that (after I tried it myself). Look at the attached images

This is for e.g. simple bevel tip that everyone sells:
[attachment=2]

now check out microwave (there's miniwave also, same thing just bit larger)
[attachment=1]
[attachment=0]

apologies for the image quality, looking at tip using some usb microscope crap in some retarded winblows application and then using "snappit" to get image to file .. all that while joggling my 7month old boy in one hand :D

EDIT: actually this on the picture is miniwave not microwave, it's this one: Angled MiniWave Tip, 2.4mm (0035) (http://http://www.paceworldwide.com/products/tips-and-nozzles/soldering-iron-tips/td100-tips/td100-standard-soldering-tips/angled-miniwave-tip-24mm-0035)

microwave is this one (1.1mm): Micro-Wave Tip (0046) (http://http://www.paceworldwide.com/products/tips-and-nozzles/soldering-iron-tips/td100-tips/td100-standard-soldering-tips/microwave-tip-0046) (same thing only smaller)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on February 27, 2014, 07:41:37 pm
Thanks for the explanation. The pictures are good enough.

[quote author="arhi"]
hm, I didn't see that JBC tips are in any way better then tips that go into TD100, can you explain this better?
[/quote]

The cyan line is what soldering station reads for TD100 temperature:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ2CaepG9es (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ2CaepG9es)

In short - because they are using series thermocouple, the inductance of the heater creates peaks in the measurement, lasting several mains periods. Despite the fact that I wrote a firmware that almost eliminates this (the white line on the left is the peak statistics the firmware creates to avoid peaks, and the magenta line is the resultant temperature with added correction and room temperature), this is a drawback that cannot be eliminated completely. The thermocouple itself heats up from the heater current that flows in it, and finally, as I mentioned before, these tips (just like Hakko T12) are using heater wire for one of the thermocouple wires, and this wire, made for heater, is not as precise as true thermocouple wire, where the ingredients of the alloy are precisely tuned for the thermocouple to be precise.

On the other hand, the JBC C245 tips do have separate wire for thermocouple, which I suspect is made from constantan, and forms a copper-constantan thermocouple with tip's copper, not needing any insulation. This gives (or has potential to) much more precise measurement. The heater's inductance does not play any role in measurement also.

Unfortunately I don't have a video to demonstrate the C245 measurement, but it is much more clean, much more precise (as I mentioned - the hakko tips and maybe TD100 - (I have just one TD100 tip) have sometimes more than 10 degrees differences between them because of heater wire is used for thermocouple. None of this is present on JBC. The 5 tips I have are within 3 degrees from one another.

I will try to make a C245 video later if you want. It is clearly visible there.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 27, 2014, 09:41:52 pm
Ah clear, I hoped, really, really, really hoped they are not doing that but looks like they are .. not sure why, the tips are not cheap enough to explain skimming on a wire/connector :( ... but isn't JBC using 3 wires on the tip and not 4 ? They are using tip body as fourth connection?

btw can you upload the TD100 tip "conditioning" circuit?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on February 27, 2014, 10:19:36 pm
[quote author="arhi"]Ah clear, I hoped, really, really, really hoped they are not doing that but looks like they are .. not sure why, the tips are not cheap enough to explain skimming on a wire/connector :( ... but isn't JBC using 3 wires on the tip and not 4 ? They are using tip body as fourth connection?[/quote]

In fact, Pace TD100 are the cheapest, compared to original Hakko T12 and JBC C245. I bought my Pace tip from Farnell.

TD100 and Hakko T12 are pretty close. They have the same voltage per degree thermocouple. Pace is more compact and powerfull than Hakko (4 ohm vs 9 ohm resistance).

For the connections - JBC has 3 connections. The body is common to the heater and thermocouple, and there's one wire for heater +, and one wire for thermocouple +. Nothing special, actually. Thermocouple voltage is also non standart one (similar to that of Hakko and Pace, but slightly higher if I rememer right).

[quote author="arhi"]
btw can you upload the TD100 tip "conditioning" circuit?[/quote]

It is done using the firmware. The software makes a statistic and updates it all the time, trying to model the inductive peak and the thermocouple heating peak from the heater current. Than, from this data and from the on-off time it corrects every peak, subtracting it from the measurement. Then it filters the signal and adds the room temperature, and then it runs a PID algorithm on this.

This is for the new version of my controller. It has 2 differential measurement channels, every one with variable current source (starting from 4uA upto more than 10mA), then it has variable gain and offset adjustments. It can handle any thermocouple and any PTC/NTC sensor with resistance between 1 ohm upto around 10 kiloohm. It has USB and so on. It uses PIC32.

...but, it became pretty complex, both in terms of firmware and hardware. I am not sure if I will publish it, just because I don't have enough time to make decent documentation and PC software for it.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 27, 2014, 11:28:34 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]
In fact, Pace TD100 are the cheapest, compared to original Hakko T12 and JBC C245. I bought my Pace tip from Farnell.
[/quote]
yes if you don't get those diamond ones .. they are bit more expensive but still pretty cheap. Still not cheap enough to explain skimming on a freaking wire :D

[quote author="sparkybg"]
For the connections - JBC has 3 connections. The body is common to the heater and thermocouple, and there's one wire for heater +, and one wire for thermocouple +. Nothing special, actually. Thermocouple voltage is also non standart one (similar to that of Hakko and Pace, but slightly higher if I rememer right).
[/quote]

hm but TD100 tips are 3 wires also, there's even a small hole in the bottom that maybe takes some pin too and TD100 handle has 4 wires, 2 go on the 2 visible goldplated terminals (4R between them) and the one go on the body of the tip, now where the fourth one goes I have no clue (I assumed in the small hole on the bottom of the tip) but I was not able to open the handle without destroying it (so far)


[quote author="sparkybg"]
It is done using the firmware.[/quote]

I was just interested in how you designed the hw part, I guess you have some fet for turning heater on/off and some shunt for measuring current and then you read TC with some opamp ? Are you sure nothing between body and one of 2 exposed pins happens? The hole in the bottom?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on February 28, 2014, 12:08:06 am
[quote author="arhi"]
hm but TD100 tips are 3 wires also, there's even a small hole in the bottom that maybe takes some pin too and TD100 handle has 4 wires, 2 go on the 2 visible goldplated terminals (4R between them) and the one go on the body of the tip, now where the fourth one goes I have no clue (I assumed in the small hole on the bottom of the tip) but I was not able to open the handle without destroying it (so far)
[/quote]
2 visible terminals are the heater/thermocouple terminals. The third terminal is the body. The body is not connected to the heater or thermocouple. There is nothing in the small hole. I don't know for the fourth wire. Maybe they are using it to measure the temperature of the tip terminals. This way the temperature of the tip will be more precise when the handle heats up above the room temperature.

[quote author="arhi"]
I was just interested in how you designed the hw part, I guess you have some fet for turning heater on/off and some shunt for measuring current and then you read TC with some opamp ? Are you sure nothing between body and one of 2 exposed pins happens? The hole in the bottom?[/quote]

Yes I have P-FET for turning on and off. It turns the heater off at the zero-cross of mains voltage if using AC, and at around 55Hz if using DC. Then it makes the thermocouple measurements and turns the iron back on. I don't have a shunt for current. It is not needed to measure the temperature. Instead, I can measure the resistance of the heater and the voltage sent to it when it is on. Resistance measurement is done using digitally controlled variable current source. This way I can measure resistances from under 1 ohm upto 10kOhms. There is such source on each channel (for series or separate sensor). The input amplifier (mcp6v07 auto-zero opamp) is with gain of 27.77 and input range a bit more than 100mV, then I have digitally controlled potentiometer for variable gain, and 10bit DAC for variable offset, and then I have second amplifier (same opamp) with gain of 27. This way I have variable gain or 0 to 750, with variable positive offset correction of 0 to 1024.

The gray line at the bottom of the graph is the heater resistance. :)

Here is the video of C245 on my controller:
http://youtu.be/F6juLcnn39g (http://youtu.be/F6juLcnn39g)

As you can see, there is no peaks or bumps, and the result is much more stable temperature measurement and very nice response from the station, with no overshoots or undershoots in temperature. The real temperature measurement is even more stable. There is a very little ground loop from the USB connection that makes little noise because the station and the top are also grounded. If I remove the ground connection of the station, the measurement becomes absolutely smooth.
That's why my next version have differential inputs. This way I hope I will eliminate any noises as much as possible. I am waiting for my PCB from Seed now.

I don't yet have an iron with PTC or NTC sensor. In fact I bought the TD100 tip hoping that it has a variable resistance heater or resistive sensor, but I found out that it is has the same sensor as Hakko T12 tips. It just have different(lower) heater resistance.

If I can help with anything more - feel free to ask.

Here is now the station PCBs looks like:

The back PCB (power supply, P-MOS, and so on):
[attachment=1]

The front PCB (the control board):
[attachment=0]
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 28, 2014, 12:31:02 am
Hm, interesting. So they actually have heater behave like TC .. well, any heater wire that's linked with copper wire lead will behave like TC and that can be measured... what I find weird is if you look at the original driver they have a huge capacitor to flatten that AC into DC and a precise shunt (very big and very precise) on the board so from what I see they are measuring the current used by the heater. I don't see anywhere some amplifier that will amplify the voltage from the TC...

If you supply DC to the TD100 tip, you still have those spikes?
Are you sure there's a purposely put TC inside? Did you try to cut the tip?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on February 28, 2014, 09:19:43 am
Yes, there is a TC inside. And it is purposely there. The heater is made from Nichrome or Kanthal, and the other terminal is purposely made of pure Nickel. This forms Nickel-Nichrome or Nickel-Kanthal thermocouple. It is not uncommon thing. Hakko is the same, and as far as i know, Weller RT tips are also made this way (although, not sure about the materials).

My controller works both with DC and AC. The peaks are there no matter what I do. These are form the heater's inductance. Nothing can be made to prevent them.

And, yes - I have two Hakko cut tips. TD100 behaves the same way, gives the same TC voltage. There's even TD100 handle with Hakko plug to use on Hakko T12 station on the market. I am 100% sure the things are this way. The resistance of both Hakko and TD100 are constant with temperature, so there is nothing else to measure but TC voltage. The body of the tip has several megaOhms resistance in respect to any of the two heater terminals. Just like Hakko.

...and, No, Kanthal/Nichrome-copper is not a valid thermocouple. You can try this if you want. Constantan-Copper is a valid thermocouple, and I suspect JBC are using such thermocouple.

P.S: I don't know why they are measuring the current. Knowing the current is not needed to measure the TC. It is needed to measure the resistance of the heater or the power delivered to the heater. I am measuring the resistance also, so I can also measure the power to the iron, but this is not needed for TC reading. Maybe their PID inside the station works with power as  a parameter. This way the input voltage becomes irrelevant to the stability of the PID. But, my station works from any voltage between 10 and 24V, AC or DC, and is also stable, so I don't know what they are doing with this shunt.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 28, 2014, 10:49:04 am
[quote author="sparkybg"]Yes, there is a TC inside. And it is purposely there. The heater is made from Nichrome or Kanthal, and the other terminal is purposely made of pure Nickel. This forms Nickel-Nichrome or Nickel-Kanthal thermocouple. It is not uncommon thing. Hakko is the same, and as far as i know, Weller RT tips are also made this way (although, not sure about the materials).
[/quote]

I so hoped they are smarter then that :( thanks for confirmation ..

[quote author="sparkybg"]
My controller works both with DC and AC. The peaks are there no matter what I do. These are form the heater's inductance. Nothing can be made to prevent them.
[/quote]
I have some fancy LCR will measure inductance of that heater, it's weird, I know when I measured inductance of the hakko heater it was something incredibly low

[quote author="sparkybg"]
P.S: I don't know why they are measuring the current. [/quote]
It's what bugs me .. anyhow not too important anyways .. I wrote in my review I was not happy with how td100 thermoregulation works.. the spikes you fight with are not too problematic imo that is solvable problem, what is problematic is that it looks like even with cartridges they are positioning sensor on heater instead on to the tip
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on February 28, 2014, 11:46:56 am
Well it is not that bad. The sensor is not on the heater. Here is how it is positioned:
[attachment=0]

If the thermal contact between the sensor and the tip copper is good enough, the error is pretty small.

But, when we compare this with direct contact thermocouple of the JBC tips (which I believe is the case), one can see it is a better construction, or has a potential to be. I am not really sure this is what they done, but I don't see why they shouldn't do it this way.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on February 28, 2014, 12:31:34 pm
Here are some pictures of cut JBC C245. I was not right about direct copper-constantan TC. The tip itself is pressed on top of this:

(more pictures here: http://bbs.38hot.net/thread-28591-1-1.html (http://bbs.38hot.net/thread-28591-1-1.html) )

[attachment=2]
[attachment=1]
[attachment=0]

The thermocouple, however, is in direct contact with the tip's copper, which is (IMHO) again better than Hakko/Pace.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on February 28, 2014, 01:01:49 pm
Here a JBC station teardown. I don't see anything wrong with it's manufacturing quality. Was it the same station you looked at?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjEYI5WsLBI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjEYI5WsLBI)

PP: It also has a big shunt resistor in it. Again, I don't know why the current is so important so they are putting a dedicated shunt for measuring it. Yes, the heater's resistance can be measured this way, the heater's current gives a direct representation of the heater's power, but this can be measured without using a shunt anyway. Moreover, with what I see in this station, it is of comparable complexity (if not more complex) than my station, but my station is universal and that's why it is complex.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on February 28, 2014, 09:46:44 pm
I dislike the JBC tip design too ... not 100% sure how the TD100 tip actually looks inside without cutting it but looking at JBC cutout it does seem it's fairly similar except JBC is using 3rd wire (slightly better) and PACE/HAKKO only 2 (pushing current trough TC and all) ... looks like it's all going down to "good enough"

no this station Dave teared down is not same the one I went trough (the one I used had smaller screen), and it's not that I found some huge problems with it, it's just that for the price I expected waaaaaaaaaay more
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 01, 2014, 12:05:49 am
[quote author="arhi"]...3rd wire (slightly better)...[/quote]

1. Thermocouple is with direct contact with the tip copper. There is not any insulation between them
2. 3-rd wire is just for TC. The inductance has nothing to do with measuring the TC, no peaks, and so on. This leads to better accuracy
3. The TC material has nothing to do with the heater material, this also leads to better accuracy.

At the end you have +/-10 vs +/-2-3 degrees accuracy between different tips, which I call 3-5 times better, not "slightly".

But anyway, you are right that both are good enough. It does not matter what we like or dislike. Anyone should find "The Iron" for himself to be happy working with.

I will try the tips you are mentioned, although my style of soldering can do without it. Maybe I will like them too.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 01, 2014, 02:18:09 am
[quote author="sparkybg"]which I call 3-5 times better, not "slightly"[/quote]

I say "slightly" compared to what I expected to find inside, both are too far from what I'd like to see / expected to find ..


[quote author="sparkybg"]Anyone should find "The Iron" for himself to be happy working with.[/quote]

I'm still searching :(
What I found is that temperature is not a big deal (initially I believed that's no1 issue to deal with), especially not when you move to some higher quality alloys.. some other things I do find very important:

[quote author="sparkybg"]I will try the tips you are mentioned, although my style of soldering can do without it. Maybe I will like them too.[/quote]
micro/mini wave tips are great if you do lot of big high pitch smd chips, also it's great for those ugly oled connectors too .. you can do this with regular chisel of bevel tip with lot of flux and, in case of some stubborn bridges, some wick .. but micro/mini wave is imo just faster, easier, nicer to work with (and shoots less heat into the pcb/component and that's important for those ugly oled connectors for e.g.). The initial one to try out imo is "Angled MiniWave Tip, 2.4mm (0035)" that's the one I use most of the time :D, it's perfect size, bent a bit for easy work .. try it out :D

btw your driver does not look too cheap and simple, it looks great but complex. when I started this, the idea was to utilize some of the handles I had lying around (and available locally for ~3-5eur) so making a complex driver would make the whole thing pointless :D .. going with expensive handles, tips .. not much sense, so the idea was not to make a super cool universal soldering driver (looks like you are very close to that, just need to document and publish it :D ), just to make a cheap conversion from some existing drivers (lot of 24VAC transformers lying around from old magnastats, also lot of 24VAC transformers available on flee market from different devices for "peanuts"), slamming it all together with 5eur soldering iron and one is ready to solder for less money then some el cheapo 240VAC no regulation chip killing iron cost on the same market :D ... even that finally didn't work out as I see dp didn't yet sold initial 100 pcb's they made for seeed and I see number of ppl locally taking my idea but going with even simpler driver, just a single opamp, potentiometer and triak, no pid, no mcu, no display :D .. and it works for them :D (better then those cheap alternatives anyhow). Btw I seen mine driver used in weirdest setups you can imagine, I seen a guy running 240VAC trough the triak to the no regulation mains iron and he strapped a TC to the tip using kapton tape and run the TC wires besides the iron into the driver :D I hate I didn't take a picture of that :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on March 01, 2014, 11:32:20 am
Havent found an comparision between pace and jbc yet, but do you really mean that these jbc are too big?
[attachment=0]
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 01, 2014, 12:22:14 pm
no reference :D no idea how big your fingers are :D can you put it next to some ruler :D or just measure distance from end of green stuff to the tip of the tip. longest tip I have with td100 is 4cm (maybe there are longer ones dunno, 4cm is longest I have) and that's max length for comfortable use. I guess from the pic that the smaller handle/tip is in that area (~4cm from green to tip) but this bigger one looks like 5+ cm and that's too big (but taken it's a big heavy tip you won't use this for smd so it's more then ok for big stuff). the JBC i tried was comparable in length with PES51 with some 8cm from your hand to the tip
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on March 01, 2014, 12:31:52 pm
3.5 and 5cm on those two pencils.

The pencils are T210 and T245
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 01, 2014, 01:18:24 pm
[quote author="arhi"]no reference :D no idea how big your fingers are :D can you put it next to some ruler :D or just measure distance from end of green stuff to the tip of the tip. longest tip I have with td100 is 4cm (maybe there are longer ones dunno, 4cm is longest I have) and that's max length for comfortable use. I guess from the pic that the smaller handle/tip is in that area (~4cm from green to tip) but this bigger one looks like 5+ cm and that's too big (but taken it's a big heavy tip you won't use this for smd so it's more then ok for big stuff). the JBC i tried was comparable in length with PES51 with some 8cm from your hand to the tip[/quote]

The distance between the green stuff and the tip of the tip is exactly 5cm. And I am pretty comfortable with this. This is for C245. C210 are smaller (the smaller one on the picture) - from what I can see from a picture, it is around 30-35mm.

Maybe you have tried T470 handpiece with C470 tips. This is huge, and powerfull (I suspect it's power is more than 200W). By no means C470 tips are made for SMD. More likely it is made for heady duty soldeting of big things - TO-247 and bigger parts.

C245 handpiece and C245 cartridges are not even close to PES51.

Here they are, from my previous post in this thread (T12 vs C245 vs TD100):
(http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=10404&mode=view)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on March 01, 2014, 01:49:41 pm
And regarding tip change on jbc, do anyone know of an iron with easier change than this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoMqAKZRR6s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoMqAKZRR6s)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 01, 2014, 02:09:24 pm
3.5cm is perfect (is that from your hand/green piece, or from the end of the metal ring?), 5cm is too long for me for precise work and for work under microscope ... I'll have to go check out that C210. Afaik the handle I tried was 120W or something like that (I was told exactly but I forgot, maybe even 200W)

As for tip removal speed, I got some silicon pad with TD100 so I take the tip out with my hand and push in new tip, even faster then with this tpi stand but there's also tip stand for td100.. I assume hakko is also selling tip stands for their cartridges so with cartridges changing tips is super fast, no real race there ..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on March 01, 2014, 02:57:23 pm
Cant exactly say this is fast change on the Hakko http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj54JcPzABg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj54JcPzABg)

Seems like the TD100 is kinda fast: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REcdKHwGGY4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REcdKHwGGY4)

But still you need a tool, on the JBC the pencil holder is the tool.

But hey, what works for you.

and yes, Since you asked for length from the green part to the tips tip, yes, that is what I measured, not from the end of the metal, I guess nobody wants to hold that part.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 01, 2014, 06:04:37 pm
hakko is quite complicated for removal, why the hack they did that I don't know, on td100 you take the tip out (with rubber pad) and press in the new one, takes 1sec to remove tip and continue to work. What I did notice is that JBC heats up bit faster (the huge one I tried, dunno about C210, will have to find one and try it out), for 3mm chisel tip with additional heat mass it takes 10, maybe 15 seconds to reach 350C, little less for the 2.5mm mini wave for e.g .. the big jbc I tried was 5-6 seconds to 350C, I was really impressed
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 01, 2014, 06:41:21 pm
50mm is from the end of the green plastic/rubber to the tip of the tip on T245 handpiece with C245 tip on it.

Hakko has another model handle, equivalent to TD100. I personally use a thivk piece of paper paper for doing this. It is needed only for removal. Jbc is the same thing - you remove the old tip and press in the new one. I don't like the Hakko handle like this on the movie.

...and, yes - try the C210. It is even more compact than TD100.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 03, 2014, 01:33:40 am
Here:
[attachment=0]
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 03, 2014, 01:42:23 am
[quote author="neslekkim"]3.5 and 5cm on those two pencils.

The pencils are T210 and T245[/quote]

Can you please measure the resistance of the C210 heater?
This is between outer shell and middle terminal. The smallest terminal is for thermocouple only.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on March 03, 2014, 07:38:27 am
0.5-0.6 I guess, but the meter was all over the place?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 03, 2014, 12:23:23 pm
[quote author="neslekkim"]0.5-0.6 I guess, but the meter was all over the place?[/quote]

This is the thermocouple.

Here is what the terminals are for:
(http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=10073)

Measure the resistance between heater terminals on the picture. It should be at least 4-5 ohms.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on March 03, 2014, 12:47:06 pm
I did, tried both Fluke 87-v and 289, and both was jumping up and down, no steady reading??
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 03, 2014, 01:02:59 pm
Hmm, strange.

Does it jump on C245 also? I can read steady 2.7-2.8 ohms on C245 both with Agilent U1272A and chinese noname multimeter.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on March 03, 2014, 01:09:03 pm
didnt check that, will try again after work. I'm also waiting for an 34461A so I will check what that one says also.
i also have the microtweezers so I can compare with those tips, which is the C120 range.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 03, 2014, 01:16:19 pm
OK, thanks.

Arhi, I forgot to mention - there's even smaller JBC - the C105 cartridges are made exactly for super small SMD components and work under a microscope.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on March 03, 2014, 01:23:46 pm
Those are for the Nano station then I guess?, those handles cannot be used on the DIT station probably?
As if I need anything smaller than the T210, I find that one too small for my use, it's like holding an toothpick and soldering with that, the T245 is perfect for my hands. (And I don't say my hands are any big)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 03, 2014, 01:56:20 pm
[quote author="neslekkim"]Those are for the Nano station then I guess?, those handles cannot be used on the DIT station probably?
As if I need anything smaller than the T210, I find that one too small for my use, it's like holding an toothpick and soldering with that, the T245 is perfect for my hands. (And I don't say my hands are any big)[/quote]

I don't know about what station these can be used on. I am using all handles I have (Jbc, Hakko, Pace) on a station I made myself. I am just curious if I can use C210 and C105 on my station also. In other words, can I use them with 24V supply. Unfortunately, I cannot find any information about their resistance on the internet. If it is higher than, say, 4-5 ohms, it will be possible. The question is, can they handle one whole mains period of 24 volts on them without fail.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on March 03, 2014, 02:07:01 pm
I can use the T210 and T245 on both the 2BB station and the DIT station, same plugs, only the microtweezer that have an sligtly different plug.
So I would guess it should work?

On the other hand, it would have been cool to build your station, it seems you have built inn connectivity to computer and all sorts?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on March 03, 2014, 02:09:15 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]The question is, can they handle one whole mains period of 24 volts on them without fail.[/quote]

The JBC checks and adjust the tempearature 60 times a second as far as I know, and that is close to the same as the mains period?
should have an breakout board to measure what happens when using the station..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 03, 2014, 02:14:09 pm
[quote author="neslekkim"][quote author="sparkybg"]The question is, can they handle one whole mains period of 24 volts on them without fail.[/quote]

The JBC checks and adjust the tempearature 60 times a second as far as I know, and that is close to the same as the mains period?
should have an breakout board to measure what happens when using the station..[/quote]

I think the resistance of the heater will be enough to judge if it will be able to withstand a full period of 24V on it. My station works similar way, but they have a transformer with multiple secondaries in their, as far as i know. I don't. My station uses a plain 24V 100VA transformer with single secondary.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on March 03, 2014, 02:24:23 pm
I don't remember from Dave's teardown, but wouldn't that be to give power to the mcu and stuff, as well as the heater?
Only two secondaries: http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/88 ... 3774612230 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/8872679357/in/set-72157633774612230)

I'm not using my 2BB after I upgraded to DIT, so I could take it apart if there is anything interesting to see inside there.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 03, 2014, 02:51:42 pm
As far as I can see, there are 2 power MOSFETs inside, and it seems they have separate gate drivers. That's why I think it is possible that they are using 12 and 24 volts on the tips.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: BillyW on March 03, 2014, 03:25:39 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]
Here is what the terminals are for:
(http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=10073)
[/quote]

The heater isn't driven through the cartridge outer connection, it is to earth the tip. Heater current flowing in the earth connection for the tip would put a couple of volts ac on the tip with respect to earth.

There are multiple soldering iron standards which require less than 5mV or less than 2mV voltage on the tip with respect to earth.

Going back a few posts I suspect the current shunt in the JBC controllers is for overload detection/protection. There is no fuse in the heater circuit.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on March 03, 2014, 07:12:45 pm
Ok, used crocodiles to hold the probes while metering now, finally stable.

C245:
Heater- -> Heater 2.9ohm
TC- -> TC+ 0.2 ohm
TC+ -> Heater + 2.9Ohm

It actually varies from 2.4-3.0ohm based on tip type.

C210:
Heater- -> Heater 0.2ohm
TC- -> TC+ 2.1 ohm
TC+ -> Heater + 2.1Ohm

Same on C120

oposite on C210 and C120?, can that be right? since T210 and T245 have same plug.. hm
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 03, 2014, 07:24:20 pm
Hm, strange. I will order one C210 to check and measure.

T210 and T245 have the same plug, but are using 3 wires. There's 3 more connections available on the plug.

Can you please check how many terminals are connected on the station?

Maybe they are using an inverting amplifier for measuring the thermocouple, or they are grounding the positive power supply for the iron, or they are using negative supply to the iron.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 04, 2014, 05:35:33 pm
[quote author="neslekkim"]Ok, used crocodiles to hold the probes while metering now, finally stable.

C245:
Heater- -> Heater 2.9ohm
TC- -> TC+ 0.2 ohm
TC+ -> Heater + 2.9Ohm

It actually varies from 2.4-3.0ohm based on tip type.

C210:
Heater- -> Heater 0.2ohm
TC- -> TC+ 2.1 ohm
TC+ -> Heater + 2.1Ohm

Same on C120

oposite on C210 and C120?, can that be right? since T210 and T245 have same plug.. hm[/quote]

Just got a T210-A handpiece with C210-001 tip. Your measuremens are right. The handles are using the same terminals on the connector. T210 handpiece has one extra wire connection (the central one on the connector), maybe for identification.

So, from all this, I think the correct connections to both C245 and C210 are as follows:
[attachment=0]

So it must be treated like serial thermocouple.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Hobbyist on March 04, 2014, 09:39:01 pm
Thanks to Zoltan from Hungary. I found this picture by accident in another forum a year ago, but I forgot the name of the webpage. I hope it is not confidential so I can republish it:

(http://http://s21.postimg.org/3qa47uzpz/jbc_cartridge_C02.jpg)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 04, 2014, 10:06:49 pm
I thing it is not correct, especially for C245. This will create short circuit.

On C245 the outer shell is connected to "+", not to "-". And it is the opposite for C210.

There should not be connection between GND and "-" for C245, and there should not be any connection between GND and "+" on C210. And of course, in order to use both, there should not be any connection between the GND and any other terminal. The proper connection is in the tip itself.

I made the proper connections for C245 on my station, and it works and it is properly grounded now. I will try C210 in a few minutes i hope.

The nasty thing is, I must use an USB isolator for connection to PC, beacuse euther + or - terminal can be grounded, and this depends on the tip type.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Hobbyist on March 04, 2014, 10:21:52 pm
If I knew that this JBC pin-count is under discussion since months I would publish this pic much early. I don't want to put on a trial the circuit representation, furthermore I am not familiar with these tips and this very long discussion here. My intention was to show the connections of the tip only. The circuit is only, I guess, for a visual presentation. If there are differences between different JBC tips families, of course the right connection is (and must) well-provided inside the tip! But the pin count will be always the same due to the "universal" hand-piece. So the pin-out looks OK for me, as your previous assumption.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 04, 2014, 10:25:46 pm
I don't get why the hack are they using the tip body as anything but earth :( .... it is a serious drawback imo
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 04, 2014, 10:59:28 pm
[quote author="arhi"]I don't get why the hack are they using the tip body as anything but earth :( .... it is a serious drawback imo[/quote]

They are using it only for ground. I made some false assumptions.

It is a fact that it is connected through the TC to one of the other terminals, but this does not mess with the grounding in any way, as soon as the ground wire is used only for ground (i.e. straight wire from outer shell to the mains ground).

The positive thing is, you don't use any insulation between the TC and the tip, and this means better thermal contact both for heater and for the TC.

The drawback is, you cannot ground any of the power terminals. And if for example (my case) you want to have an USB port on the station for firmware updates or something else, you should use isolator for this or you should disconnect the station ground from mains ground in order to be able to connect the USB without creating a ground loop. Pretty nasty, actually. I don't know how they perform this task on their stations featuring an USB port on them.

Technically, It is a trivial thing - you can either use USB-COM chip and isolate the TX and RX lines with digital isolators, or you can use ADuM3160/4160 for direct USB isolation. Both methods have their drawbacks. I've decided to use ADuM3160 for this task. We will see if it will perform as it should when I make the new PCB.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 05, 2014, 11:35:18 am
[quote author="Hobbyist"]If I knew that this JBC pin-count is under discussion since months I would publish this pic much early. I don't want to put on a trial the circuit representation, furthermore I am not familiar with these tips and this very long discussion here. My intention was to show the connections of the tip only. The circuit is only, I guess, for a visual presentation. If there are differences between different JBC tips families, of course the right connection is (and must) well-provided inside the tip! But the pin count will be always the same due to the "universal" hand-piece. So the pin-out looks OK for me, as your previous assumption.[/quote]

The heater is always between C2(-) and C3(+). The thermocouple signal is on the same terminals and polarity.

- on the C245 there is a direct link between C3(+) and C1(GND) in the tip.
- on the C210 there is a direct link between C2(-) and C1(GND) in the tip.

Now when you have a 2 instrument controller, it becomes very interesting to control the two different instruments simultaneously, and in the same time to control 2 same instruments simultaneously. I suspect they are using different secondary windings on the transformer for this. Or at lest 2 bridge rectifiers + optical couplers to control the switches.

I am very curious to see how they do it on their double stations. If someone has a clue - please share it with us.

P.S. Here is how they do it on one of their stations - 2 transformers, 2 control units and so on:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/jb ... -teardown/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/jbc-ad4300-soldering-station-teardown/)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on March 05, 2014, 12:53:46 pm
Interresting, I wonder if they do it differently now, say the DM with 4 outputs, based on the difference in weight from 2-4 outputs, I don't think there are four transformers in it, but going from 1 to 2 output, it might..
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 05, 2014, 01:26:12 pm
[quote author="neslekkim"]Interresting, I wonder if they do it differently now, say the DM with 4 outputs, based on the difference in weight from 2-4 outputs, I don't think there are four transformers in it, but going from 1 to 2 output, it might..[/quote]

The thing is, they are differently grounded, and one of the power lines is connected to ground inside the tip. And because all the outer shells must be coupled directly to ground, and this ground is common to all attached tips, I cannot think of a way to do it but to use different secondaries or different transformers. If you don't, either the power lines will create a short circuit or the TC voltage will be complete mess, if you are using for example C210 and C245 on the same station.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: jry on March 05, 2014, 01:30:55 pm
[quote author="neslekkim"]I'm not using my 2BB after I upgraded to DIT, so I could take it apart if there is anything interesting to see inside there.[/quote]

[quote author="sparkybg"]As far as I can see, there are 2 power MOSFETs inside, and it seems they have separate gate drivers. That's why I think it is possible that they are using 12 and 24 volts on the tips.[/quote]

neslekkim, any chance you open your 2BB controller a capture T245 heat-up phase with oscilloscope?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on March 05, 2014, 01:41:16 pm
I have an Rigol ds2202a-s, i only need to learn how to capture with it, also got an agilent 34461A today but i guess that is not helpfull here.
What and where should I measure?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 05, 2014, 01:45:43 pm
[quote author="sparkybg"]
Technically, It is a trivial thing - you can either use USB-COM chip and isolate the TX and RX lines with digital isolators, or you can use ADuM3160/4160 for direct USB isolation. Both methods have their drawbacks. I've decided to use ADuM3160 for this task. We will see if it will perform as it should when I make the new PCB.[/quote]

I'm not big fan of the usb-on-mcu thing (SID has usb only 'cause Ian wanted it, I never populate usb connector on my SID) and I like to use hw uart on mcu for communication with the world .. so some "standard" setup I use is optical serial isolator (sometimes I make it myself with led+fotodiode and some black tape) + isolating 5v:5v or 12v:5v psu (for e.g.
http://www.murata-ps.com/en/products/dc ... 515sc.html (http://www.murata-ps.com/en/products/dc-dc-converters/dual-output-isolated/nmd050515sc.html)
http://www.bellnix.com/pdfdata/pdf/BLA.pdf (http://www.bellnix.com/pdfdata/pdf/BLA.pdf)
http://www.bellnix.com/pdfdata/pdf/BTA.pdf (http://www.bellnix.com/pdfdata/pdf/BTA.pdf)
http://www.bellnix.com/pdfdata/C_BX-L,BJ-H.pdf (http://www.bellnix.com/pdfdata/C_BX-L,BJ-H.pdf)
http://www.bellnix.com/pdfdata/C_BY-L.pdf (http://www.bellnix.com/pdfdata/C_BY-L.pdf) )


as for using the earth for stuff ... I dislike it, I know it is ok but I still dislike it
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 05, 2014, 02:10:29 pm
[quote author="arhi"]
I'm not big fan of the usb-on-mcu thing[/quote]

Why? It is a bit headache to program it for the first time, but when you get used to it, it becomes easier and easier. HID class is easy enough, everything can use it (Linux, Windows, etc.) and it does not need drivers. Once you have your libraries for it, the next projects are fast end easy. The price of ADuM3160 is comparable or cheaper then FT232 + digital isolator or digital isolator + PSU. And, only a single chip + 2 resistors + 3 capacitors are needed - one side is powered form the USB, and the other side form the MCU power. Only two connections to the MCU are needed in either case (UART RX+TX or USB D+ and D-).
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 05, 2014, 02:33:38 pm
:D because I have to make program run around usb interrupts and instead of usb working for me, I work for usb .. and I hate that. with uart I send char and forget about it, with usb your main loop is around usb and you do your "work" in spare time usb gives you .. not to mention how much flash and ram usb eats up :( (especially compared to uart).

the other thing is that 99% of devices I make don't need to talk non stop, they are stand alone devices that need to communicate with computer from time to time, so the whole usb thing is just waste of resources, I make a led port for uart available and I have my "universal" serial2usb card that I plug into that led port and I finish what I need to (debug, reprogram, download/upload data) and I use same "universal" board for all my devices .. (not to mention <2$ usb2uart cards on ebay that work like a charm, I pay only for usb connector locally 2$)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: jry on March 05, 2014, 04:55:55 pm
[quote author="neslekkim"]I have an Rigol ds2202a-s, i only need to learn how to capture with it, also got an agilent 34461A today but i guess that is not helpfull here.
What and where should I measure?[/quote]

Put Rigol into A-B differential mode (disconnect ground clips from your probes) or use differential probe and measure voltage on heater terminals.

Just for reference I'm attaching example from my HQ-SOLDER/30 (cheap) station. You can see simplest triac regulation without zero-crossing detection (the M channel, ignore 1 and 2 channels). AC half wave @ 50Hz.

It would be interesting to see 2BB output.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: jry on March 05, 2014, 10:03:43 pm
[quote author="arhi"]...and for JBC I did not find any mircowave tips at all (and if they have them they are probably like Weller paying royalty so again probably not too much choices and high price)...[/quote]

JBC has four Mini Spoon tips: C245067 C245938 C245931 C245965 for drag soldering. Looks like mircowave tips.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 05, 2014, 10:25:06 pm
niiiiiiiice that's the one
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 05, 2014, 10:55:59 pm
I am using C245064 for small components (i.e. TQFP144 and similar). In fact this is the tip I use most of the time. The equivalent is HAKKO T12-BCF1. It is tinned only at the front and one can put a really tiny drop of solder there. 0603 and 0402 resistors and capacitors are easily soldered with these tips also, although I rarely use components smaller than 0603.

Having two stations, one with C245064 and one with T12-BCF1 on it, I don't need a hot tweezers at all.

It is a shame there isn't similar C210 cartridge, but I will get one C210008 for extra small things. C210001 I already have, but it is really, really small.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 05, 2014, 11:04:22 pm
C245064  is bevel, it's good tip but when you get used to the power of the "spoon", as jry called it, you never go back :D
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: jry on March 06, 2014, 11:32:02 pm
[quote author="neslekkim"]I can use the T210 and T245 on both the 2BB station and the DIT station, same plugs, only the microtweezer that have an sligtly different plug.
So I would guess it should work?[/quote]

Did you use T210 on 2BB station? It seems like "unsupported" configuration according to JBC website (there is special CD-S station compatible with T210 - Output Peak Power 40W / 23.5V). Looks like you can destroy T210 tips on 2BB station because you measured C210 resistance only 0.2ohm.

Maybe is C210 detected on 2BB and lowered or disabled output power?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 07, 2014, 12:29:23 am
[quote author="jry"]
 Looks like you can destroy T210 tips on 2BB station because you measured C210 resistance only 0.2ohm.
[/quote]
C210 resistance is between 1.8 and 2.3ohm. I am already running it on my controller. I put a limit on output power to 40%. My station can deliver around 130W/23V, so it is around 52W. I will put a real power limit after some time. This way it will not depend on mains voltage.

C210 can survive full 24V mains period, and this is what really matters. The rest is more or less easy.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: jry on March 07, 2014, 01:29:40 am
In case of C245 tip you have no power output limits? JBC specification for 2BB station says Output Peak Power 130W / 23.5V. I assume they use 130W only for some short periods (such as warm-up), but don't expect they will put such stress on the tip for long time (while soldering some large joints).
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on March 07, 2014, 08:48:58 am
[quote author="jry"][quote author="neslekkim"]I can use the T210 and T245 on both the 2BB station and the DIT station, same plugs, only the microtweezer that have an sligtly different plug.
So I would guess it should work?[/quote]

Did you use T210 on 2BB station? It seems like "unsupported" configuration according to JBC website (there is special CD-S station compatible with T210 - Output Peak Power 40W / 23.5V). Looks like you can destroy T210 tips on 2BB station because you measured C210 resistance only 0.2ohm.

Maybe is C210 detected on 2BB and lowered or disabled output power?[/quote]

Yes, used both T210 and T245, which is supported, also T470 is supported, but microtweezers are not supported.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: jry on March 07, 2014, 09:30:26 am
You are right, now I see it in the CD-S and CD-B PDF manual. I was confused by JBC website information.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: sparkybg on March 07, 2014, 09:50:15 am
[quote author="jry"]In case of C245 tip you have no power output limits? JBC specification for 2BB station says Output Peak Power 130W / 23.5V. I assume they use 130W only for some short periods (such as warm-up), but don't expect they will put such stress on the tip for long time (while soldering some large joints).[/quote]

No, I don't. It does not need it. The transformer of the station is 100VA toroidal one, and it just cannot give more than about 130-140W. It ends with equilibrium between the tip's resistance and transformer voltage drop, so even when the tip is  switched on 100% of the time, the power cannot go much further from 130-140W.

I have 6.3A Fast blow fuse after the transformer. If it survives, then everything is OK. Well, it survives the C245 tips, and the C210 tips have so low resistance and so low heat mass that it needs a limit.

I can measure the heater's resistance and transformers voltage, so it will be easy to implement a power limit by software.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: jry on March 07, 2014, 09:54:08 am
arhi, I have bad feeling about spamming your thread with JBC related questions. Are you interested in JBC tips support or should we move this discussion away?

I'm considering building simplest possible "two channel" JBC iron driver with support for T210, T245 and PA120 micro tweezers.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 07, 2014, 10:52:36 am
I don't mind the jbc storyline :) .. lot of useful info about those tips .. I don't plan attm to go with V4 of the driver and support them too (especially as the universal driver is already out there, why make another one) but good to have info all in same place
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: maxxim on March 12, 2014, 01:40:31 pm
This is a great project.

Rotary encoder code is not 100% correct.

I may have found the problem and the solution, as soon as I'm done, it will be posted here.

My project is to make a desoldering station, the heater is too low resistance (about 2.2 Ohm and up to 130 watts).

I hope that the power supply is strong enough (try and software to reduce the power and also publish it here).
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: thenewguy on March 19, 2014, 04:28:14 am
Hi all,

So what is the verdict, Can I use the DP v1.5 board to run a jbc t245? t210?
Do I need to power the heater with DC? or is 24 VAC fine?

What transformer are you guys using?

Thanks
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 19, 2014, 11:07:59 am
no you can not
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: thenewguy on March 19, 2014, 09:44:02 pm
Hmm, I guess I get to design my own controller!

Anybody have any luck with the JBC hand pieces?

From what I skimmed on the evblog forum, case (c1) is grounded, heater is driven thru thermocouple (c2,c3) and thermocouple is measured at the AC zero crossing point.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: jry on March 19, 2014, 10:45:58 pm
[quote author="thenewguy"]Anybody have any luck with the JBC hand pieces?[/quote]

Please read complete threads (there are JBC related posts inside):
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2457 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2457)
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=5264 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=5264)
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=6302 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=6302)
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/j ... /msg376294 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/jbc-soldering-iron-stand-wiring/msg376294)
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevbl ... -teardown/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-472-jbc-cd-2bb-soldering-iron-teardown/)
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/jb ... sassembly/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/jbc-t245-handle-disassembly/)
http://www.google.com/patents/EP1086772A2?cl=en (http://www.google.com/patents/EP1086772A2?cl=en)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: thenewguy on March 20, 2014, 01:33:00 am
Thanks for the link!

I am going to be following your thread.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: TomKeddie on March 20, 2014, 10:18:25 pm
hey Arhi,

I got to page 12 in this posting and need to keep reading.  Am hoping for some quick advice.  If I wanted get make a controller should I got with one of your PCBs or Ians? (I think I know the answer).  Any chance you could export a BOM in a text file (or point me to a cart at the vendor you used).

Thanks a ton,
Tom

ps. am thinking of running a hackspace project, not going into production etc.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 21, 2014, 12:14:07 am
if it's a trough hole version of the pcb, it's ian's and it's made in eagle. I don't use eagle so you have to bug them.
mine version (smd with few trough hole parts) hase bom in txt but my vendor for parts would not help you (local only)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: ian on March 21, 2014, 03:26:01 am
You should be able to find our board and BOM on the wiki somewhere.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: maxxim on March 22, 2014, 06:13:58 pm
Hello people,

I am working on a program for the driver, and I need a list of the soldering iron (with offset and slope if known) can work with him to fix the menu configuration

In addition to the menu is maxPWM, which can be regulated in the range of 50% to 100%.

Another option from the menu also adjust automatically for PID Parameters and save your configuration in EEPROM, for each of the soldering iron from the menu.

I would like the configuration menu anyone can set with how many soldering iron works, and possibility for changing the names (I need the names and parameters to include in the program).
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: maxxim on March 22, 2014, 06:16:00 pm
If anyone has any suggestions please PM
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Baldor on March 22, 2014, 11:07:35 pm
I'm trying to read all the thread, but its a little dificult with 50 pages, so, here are my questions:

Are this sourceforge files the most up to date? http://http://sourceforge.net/projects/arhimed-sid/files/ (the files are from 2012).

If not, is there a place I can find up to date schematics and firmware?

I plan to make some changes to addapt it to my needs (Iron + hot air) , but I don't want to reinvent the wheel and repeat mistakes.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 23, 2014, 12:40:55 am
the most up 2 date firmware is http://sourceforge.net/p/arhimed-sid/code/HEAD/tree/ (http://sourceforge.net/p/arhimed-sid/code/HEAD/tree/)
Code: [Select]
svn checkout svn://svn.code.sf.net/p/arhimed-sid/code/ arhimed-sid-code

the most up 2 date hw files (schematic and pcb) are http://sourceforge.net/projects/arhimed-sid/files/ (http://sourceforge.net/projects/arhimed-sid/files/)

Those are the ones I made!! now if you purchase pcb from seed that is pcb made by dangerousprototypes based on my schematic and their files (eagle sources) are available on dangerousprototypes svn somewhere. DP never made their own version of firmware so you are stick with mine.

There are some fixes I made to the firmware that are not in the svn, also few others made some changes (that are also not in svn, some 'cause they are made imo stupid so I don't want to put that in svn and some 'cause I still haven't got time to look at them)... anyhow the project is designed to be "playground" not a usable soldering iron so the firmware up on the svn works well enough to be starting point to make your own
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: TomKeddie on March 26, 2014, 02:12:32 am
I sent arhi's gerbers off to itead a few days back, will pick up 10 boards while in SZ for workshop next week.  Am open to offers of trade, pcb coupons etc.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 26, 2014, 02:55:31 am
I'm not that proud on how my pcb looks like :D the DB version is much nicer .. I made pcb to utilize what components I had on stock (the whole project is utilizing what I have in drawers :D ) so the pic is trough hole and bunch of other components are smt .. I hoped someone would make a good 100% smt version of the board too but Filip stopped after the trough hole version :(.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: zimbabwe on April 04, 2014, 04:35:16 pm
Hi,

Arhi, where is the most updated schema and pcb ?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on April 04, 2014, 09:32:41 pm
on sourceforge svn ( http://sid.crsndoo.com/ (http://sid.crsndoo.com/) )
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: zimbabwe on April 04, 2014, 09:59:08 pm
your link redirected to me here http://sourceforge.net/projects/arhimed-sid/ (http://sourceforge.net/projects/arhimed-sid/) , Last Update: 2013-04-22  is up to date ?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on April 04, 2014, 10:40:08 pm
yes
Title: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron driver
Post by: TomKeddie on April 05, 2014, 12:25:46 am
[quote author="arhi"]I'm not that proud on how my pcb looks like :D the DB version is much nicer .. I made pcb to utilize what components I had on stock (the whole project is utilizing what I have in drawers :D ) so the pic is trough hole and bunch of other components are smt .. I hoped someone would make a good 100% smt version of the board too but Filip stopped after the trough hole version :(.[/quote]

He he, I won't complain - you open sourced the design, what more can one ask?

I hate through hole so I went with yours.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron driver
Post by: TomKeddie on April 05, 2014, 12:25:53 am
[quote author="arhi"]I'm not that proud on how my pcb looks like :D the DB version is much nicer .. I made pcb to utilize what components I had on stock (the whole project is utilizing what I have in drawers :D ) so the pic is trough hole and bunch of other components are smt .. I hoped someone would make a good 100% smt version of the board too but Filip stopped after the trough hole version :(.[/quote]

He he, I won't complain - you open sourced the design, what more can one ask?

I hate through hole so I went with yours.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on April 05, 2014, 12:38:39 am
yes only I made it in proteus and it's not a free tool.. and there's a trough hole pic there ..

honestly this board is not very "friendly", I made it for parts I have in drawer not maybe "best parts". mcu should be smd too, also 18F2550 is not really the best solution today as it's too expensive compared to modern pics and it's pretty hard one to find (local companies don't sell it at all, can't even order it from microchip?!) ... also the op-amps, I selected some nice opamps but they are expensive and not easily sourceable, some other opamps might be better solution. Now if you wanna go with RTD sensor any rail to rail opamp will work but if you wanna go with TC it gets complicated as you have to use "fancy" opamps :D

I did some initial testing of how few of these cheap handles work (I did not test fancy cartridge based handles as they are not cheap, nor I had them in my drawer while I do have bunch of hakko klones and solomon handles around) and I made some simple circuit that make that all work with some basic firmware that drives it .. I expected someone with more time & patience to make a good smt pcb with some additions (better opamps, maybe control of the heater current/resistance to support more handles, maybe 3wire handle support.. nicer board..), all that happened was a PTH version by DP and few bug fixes of my (very rudimentary) firmware ..

I use 4 of these drivers for different purposes and they "work for me" but I did expect with 6 boards I sent out and 100 boards DP made I expected some improvements at least in firmware :( but nothing happened :(
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: TomKeddie on April 17, 2014, 06:28:43 am
I managed to export a BoM from the demo version of proteus.

Unfortunately the bbcode used here doesn't support tables so this is ugly.  I had more than a few questions.
- R30 is 0.0001R ?
- R31 is 1000M ?
- any specifics on the triac or optocoupler?
- what voltage is the lm2574?
- what voltage is the LM385?  5.0V seems to be missing from mouser.  I guess 78L05 will work?
- what package are the inductors?
- what frequency is the crystal?

Thanks a ton,
Tom

Category   Quantity   References   Value   Stock Code   Unit Cost   PCB Package   Mouser Part Number
Capacitors   8   C1,C2,C3,C4,C5,C11,C12,C13   10nF         805   80-C0805C103Z5U
Capacitors   1   C10   1uF         CAP10   
Capacitors   3   C15,C19,C20   100n   Farnell 578-149      805   80-C0805C104Z5V
Capacitors   1   C16   47uF         ELEC-RAD10   
Capacitors   1   C17   10uF         ELEC-RAD10   
Capacitors   2   C18,C21   470uF         ELEC-RAD10   
Capacitors   1   C22   220nF         805   77-VJ0805Y224MXQTBC
Capacitors   2   C23,C24   22pF         805   80-C0805C220K5G
Capacitors   4   C6,C7,C8,C14   10nF   Farnell 578-149      805   80-C0805C103Z5U
Capacitors   1   C9   47nF         805   77-VJ0805Y473JXAPBC
Miscellaneous   2   CAL1,RV1   2k   COMET PT10LV 10K      SIL-100-03   531-PT10V-2K
Diodes   1   D1   LM385         TO92-50   5.0v not found
Diodes   1   D10   1N4007         DO41   583-1N4007-B
Diodes   1   D2   LED-RED         LED   941-C5SMERJSCS0U0BB1
Diodes   5   D3,D4,D5,D6,D7   1N4003         DO41   583-1N4003-T
Diodes   1   D8   1N5819         DO41   821-1N5819
Diodes   1   D9   1N4740A         DO41   771-1N4740A,133
Miscellaneous   1   J1   POWER         TBLOCK-I2   
Miscellaneous   1   J10   USBCONN         USB-B-S-TH   
Miscellaneous   1   J11   LCD_BACKGLIGHT         CONN-SIL2   
Miscellaneous   1   J2   NTC         TBLOCK-I2   
Miscellaneous   1   J3   PTC         TBLOCK-I2   
Miscellaneous   1   J4   ThermoCouple         TBLOCK-I2   
Miscellaneous   1   J5   Heater         TBLOCK-I2   
Miscellaneous   1   J6   UART         TBLOCK-I2   
Miscellaneous   1   J7   5V         TBLOCK-I2   
Miscellaneous   1   J8   ICSP         CONN-SIL5   
Miscellaneous   1   J9   BUTTONS         CONN-SIL7   
Miscellaneous   1   JP1   JUMPER2         CONN-SIL3   
Miscellaneous   1   JP2   JP_AC         CONN-SIL2   
Miscellaneous   1   JP3   JP_DC         CONN-SIL2   
Miscellaneous   1   L1   330uH         RES50   package?
Miscellaneous   1   L2   1uH         res40   package?
Miscellaneous   1   LCD1   LM016L         CONN-SIL14   
Transistors   1   Q1   2N3906         TO92   833-2N3906-AP
Transistors   1   Q2   IRF1407         TO220   942-IRF1407PBF
Transistors   1   Q3   2N3904         TO92   833-2N3904-AP
Resistors   18   R1,R2,R3,R4,R5,R6,R7,R8,R9,R10,R11,R12,R25,R27,R29,R38,R40,R41   10k         805   660-RK73H2ATTD1002F
Resistors   2   R13,R16   100k         805   660-RK73B2ATTD104J
Resistors   11   R14,R15,R18,R19,R20,R21,R23,R32,R35,R37,R39   1k         805   660-RK73H2ATTD1001F
Resistors   2   R17,R22   22k         805   660-RK73B2ATTDD223J
Resistors   1   R24   120k         805   660-RK73H2ATTD1203F
Resistors   1   R26   15k         805   660-RK73H2ATTD1502F
Resistors   1   R30   0.0001         805   
Resistors   1   R31   1000M         805   
Resistors   1   R33   47         805   660-RK73H2ATTD47R0F
Resistors   1   R34   39         805   660-RK73H2ATTD39R0F
Resistors   1   R36   680         805   71-CRCW0805J-680-E3
Miscellaneous   1   RV2   500k   COMET PT10LV 10K      SIL-100-03   531-PT10V-10K
Integrated Circuits   1   U1   PIC18F2550         SPDIL28   579-PIC18F2550-I/SP
Integrated Circuits   1   U2   MCP619         SO14   579-MCP619-I/SL
Integrated Circuits   1   U3   MOC3031M         DIL06   512-MOC3031-M
Integrated Circuits   1   U4   TRIAC         TO220   
Integrated Circuits   1   U5   LM2574-XX         DIL08   926-LM2574N-5.0/NOPB
Integrated Circuits   1   U6   OPTOCOUPLER-NPN         DIL06   
Miscellaneous   1   X1   CRYSTAL         XTAL18
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on April 17, 2014, 09:38:39 am
[quote author="TomKeddie"]
- R30 is 0.0001R ?
- R31 is 1000M ?
[/quote]

This depends on
1. do you use NTC1/NTC2 at all? Firmware does not use them at all. I just short R30 (proteus didn't allow me to enter 0 for the value) and leave R31 open and U2:A behaves as buffer. If you need amplification you use those resistors

[quote author="TomKeddie"]
- any specifics on the triac or optocoupler?
[/quote]
 any triac that can handle 30vac and 100w should do, personally i never seen one that is below that

R37,R38, U6, D9, Q2 are only needed for DC driver if you power it from ac these parts you do not need

[quote author="TomKeddie"]
- what voltage is the lm2574?
[/quote]

5v

[quote author="TomKeddie"]
- what voltage is the LM385?  5.0V seems to be missing from mouser.  I guess 78L05 will work?
[/quote]
no, 385 is reference, 78l05 is crappy regulator
use lm385 2.5v or 1.25v. if you use 2.5v cal1 need to ne 5k, if you use 1.25v cal1 need to be 2k

[quote author="TomKeddie"]
- what package are the inductors?
[/quote]
what can fit on the pcb :)
make sure you have indictors rated for min 1A


[quote author="TomKeddie"]
- what frequency is the crystal?
[/quote]
20mhz
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: TomKeddie on April 18, 2014, 05:15:58 pm
Thanks a ton, I'll post the link to the mouser project once I verify the size of the inductors.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: zimbabwe on April 21, 2014, 09:37:25 am
Arhi,

Where can I get your PCBs? Double layer really hard to do at home for me :/
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on April 21, 2014, 10:40:03 am
I did not sell mine, gave excess ones already so have no more to give. The DP version is available on seeedstudio (same schematic as mine pcb only all components are trough hole so lot easier to solder, mine has lot of smd components cramped together with very ugly layout and even uglier silk screen)
Title: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron driver
Post by: TomKeddie on April 22, 2014, 01:18:23 am
I have some spares.  Send me a pm.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: maxxim on May 01, 2014, 03:34:32 pm
----------
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: maxxim on May 07, 2014, 01:27:59 pm
----------
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: TomKeddie on May 23, 2014, 07:04:28 pm
[quote author="TomKeddie"]I have some spares.  Send me a pm.[/quote]

I put the rest of my spares on Tindie - https://www.tindie.com/products/TomKedd ... -pcb-only/ (https://www.tindie.com/products/TomKeddie/sic-soldering-iron-controllerdriver-pcb-only/)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Moein on June 02, 2014, 07:31:08 pm
Hi people,

Can anyone please provide me a link to the wiki page containing the uptodate BOM. I see reference to it but can not find it.

I have skimmed through the posts, compared Arhi's suggestions/corrections with the DP's BOM and export of the PCB's BOM but I somehow manged to get myself confused.

I have all the parts ready.

Thanks in advice,
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on June 02, 2014, 08:01:06 pm
for what pcb ?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Moein on June 02, 2014, 10:06:17 pm
[quote author="arhi"]for what pcb ?[/quote]

Apologize. It's Ver 1.5 PCB.

Thanks,
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on June 02, 2014, 10:13:02 pm
[quote author="Moein"][quote author="arhi"]for what pcb ?[/quote]

Apologize. It's Ver 1.5 PCB.

Thanks,[/quote]

hm, why not then ask there? viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3475 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3475)

IIRC they never released proper bom :(
the source for eagle is http://dangerous-prototypes-open-hardwa ... /hardware/ (http://dangerous-prototypes-open-hardware.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/Soldering%20Iron%20Driver/hardware/)
so you can export BOM from there yourself
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Moein on June 03, 2014, 08:30:54 pm
[quote author="arhi"][quote author="Moein"][quote author="arhi"]for what pcb ?[/quote]

Apologize. It's Ver 1.5 PCB.

Thanks,[/quote]

hm, why not then ask there? viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3475 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3475)

IIRC they never released proper bom :(
the source for eagle is http://dangerous-prototypes-open-hardwa ... /hardware/ (http://dangerous-prototypes-open-hardware.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/Soldering%20Iron%20Driver/hardware/)
so you can export BOM from there yourself[/quote]

Thanks Arhi. I've posted there.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: mveplus on February 22, 2015, 04:18:00 pm
Just wanted to say thanks arhi for sharing your work and making it publicly available for the community!

Regards,
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: TexHoTpoHuk on March 02, 2015, 05:24:42 pm
hi i have solomon sl 20 soldering pencil , and want to build station for him .
Could please help me whit circuit  and firmware .

regards
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 03, 2015, 05:16:09 am
this driver can drive sl20, there's firmware source, there's schematic, pcb .. what other help you need?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: TexHoTpoHuk on March 03, 2015, 08:43:15 pm
you mean that    solderingironcontrollergen3.pdf
and  SID_GEN4.X.production.hex 

will work for sl20 ?

Regards !
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on March 03, 2015, 08:54:15 pm
http://sid.crsndoo.com/ (http://sid.crsndoo.com/)
http://sourceforge.net/projects/arhimed-sid/files/ (http://sourceforge.net/projects/arhimed-sid/files/)
modified pcb by dangerousprototypes fully trough hole: http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/Open-S ... -1282.html (http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/Open-Soldering-Station-PCB-p-1282.html)

that will work with SL20
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Hibone on April 12, 2015, 11:13:04 am
Would it make sense to use a DC motor driver IC such as the TI DRV8829, to supply the iron with sine, or squared wave voltages?

The idea is that one may use a rectifier and a buck/boost to generate 24v DC (or even higher voltage) from (almost) whatever power supply he has. Power regulation may be achieved by limiting the supplied current (32level+direction).

It should be also possible to use the H-bridge to drive irons with "integrated tips". I wonder if hot air and desoldering tools can be controlled as well.

Would the H-bridge dissipate too much?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on April 12, 2015, 07:34:06 pm
I'd rather drive iron with DC
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Hibone on April 12, 2015, 09:21:12 pm
Thanks for your answer. :)

Thus, I guess the concern about electromigration is not based on a real issue.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on April 13, 2015, 01:50:26 am
dunno ... I think the DC that killed those irons (especially in filip's case) was just too high. I think it was 24VAC -> gretc+capacitor .. and that was way over 24VDC (1.4 times over) so that's what killed the heater and not the DC per se ... IMO it's easier to believe few ppl had issues with AC->DC conversion then the whole electron migration ... as all those DC driven ones died in matter of days and not years ... in the "years" span it might be the culprit but for days... I just think they used too much DC :D ... I tested few irons since then on DC and they work ok (but you really don't want to run them on more then 24VDC no matter how your pwm is configured)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Hibone on April 13, 2015, 10:25:44 am
Thank you for the insight.

Dunno if it might be useful, but I found a comparison between original and clone hakko heaters, in the eevblog forum.

This forum prevents me to post the full link, thus, who's interested may google:

 "genuine-vs-fake-hakko-936-ceramic-heater-a1321"
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: neslekkim on April 13, 2015, 10:36:09 am
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/ge ... ter-a1321/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/genuine-vs-fake-hakko-936-ceramic-heater-a1321/)

Wasn't it on your second post you could add links?, or was it five?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pcbsmoke on April 24, 2015, 10:41:51 pm
I would like to build the soldering iron driver. I see that the pcb is available from Seeed and a BOM is available here:

http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Pat ... evelopment (http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Patrick:_Soldering_iron_driver_v1_development)

I know this is a lot to ask, but has anyone put together a supplier list to go along with the BOM to ake it easier to put together the orders?

Thanks.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on April 24, 2015, 10:46:23 pm
no supplier list :(

btw u sure you want to make this ? you can get much more elastic driver with more functions for the price below pcb and parts ?!
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pcbsmoke on April 25, 2015, 03:24:56 am
Thanks for the advice. I wasn't sure I how to build it or where to get the parts. I had not checked any prices yet.

I am experimenting with thermocouple sensors but I also want to experiment with a hakko 907. I have seen a few controllers that work with the hakko 907 ptc sensor. Are there any that work with thermocouple sensor like the solomon sl-30 iron? I would really like one that works with both but I don't know if that exists.

If you could point me in the right direction that would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on April 25, 2015, 07:02:51 am
if you want to play with it, change firmware etc, then this driver is ok as compared to most I seen it's the only open source one, but if you just want a driver that works out of the box then bunch of drivers on ebay offer simpler board, ac/dc input, both 2,3 and 4 wire operation (my driver support only 4 wire operation)...

most expensive part - the transformer - note that you need 24VAC transformer, 25VAC or worse 26VAC will quickly kill most of your clone irons so you need to shoot for something like 23VAC to be on the safe side.. on the other hand if you go too much below that it takes an age to heat up the iron... if you take too powerful transformer 24V it is more like 26-28V unloaded and if it is for e.g. 200W transformer the 50W iron is not enough to load it so it's still ~26V going into iron and while original heater will deal with that most clones will die in few days/weeks

most difficult to find part - mcp619 - it is standard low offset, low noise instrumentation op-amp from microchip but what I did not know when I chose it that it's rarely available "off the shelve" and you always have to back-order it.

the pic on the board, well it's a rarity these days to find 18f2550 on the shelves of stores + there was a huge demand for those for some ps3 or xbox360 hack so they are also quite hard to find these days

with so much cheap pcb prototyping companies out there, why don't you just take the idea, basic schematic, and make pcb yourself adapting it to your need?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pcbsmoke on April 25, 2015, 04:06:29 pm
Thank you for the good advice. This is very helpful. I have some ideas on how to proceed, now.

I was planning on experimenting with a cheap 24v transformer + a Solomon SL-30 iron. I have a PID controller plus an SSR for the test. Now I am thinking that I must a.) check the output voltage from that transformer in the circuit when it is live and b) put a dummy load resistor on it to give it some load. I have a whole bag of power resistors from an earlier project and I should be able to find one of them that will work. I didn't realize that only a couple of volts extra would fry the iron.

Re:
> with so much cheap pcb prototyping companies out there, why don't you just take the idea, basic schematic, and make pcb yourself adapting it to your need?
>

I think that is where this is is all heading to. I will start to gather information on that.

If anyone is interested, I could post a link to the first part of the project which has been worked out. I have managed to mount a thermocouple internally into a 110v ordinary plug-in soldering iron. I have a test video that shows readings at 200, 250, 300 and 350°C. I want a better controller for that iron plus the 24v irons. Maybe the same controller?? Not sure yet.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on April 25, 2015, 07:54:27 pm
not every heater but cheep ones - yes

open new thread under project log i'm sure ppl will be interested
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Ramparts on May 02, 2015, 10:02:18 am
Hi and greetings

I have a question that you may know,i am planing to buy an solomon sl-20 ,and i want to know if i can replace the original solder station plug and iron and replace directly with a hakko one .
If anyone has a schematick that i can use to replace i would appreciate

Best Regards

JOSÉ
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 02, 2015, 12:18:54 pm
sl20 use TC sensor, hakko uses RTD so no they are not interchangeable. you can use this or some other universal driver to drive both solomon and hakko but original hakko cannot drive solomon nor original solomon can drive hakko handle
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Ramparts on May 02, 2015, 12:32:13 pm
Thank you for your reply.
I get a little lost on this post because appeared to be 2 diferent pcb and pic chips ,also 2 diferent lcd displays
Also see a pcb that has a usb port.
Witch one do you recomen to use a hakko iron tip?
Do you know if it can handle a kada iron?

Best Regards

JOSÉ
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 02, 2015, 12:37:17 pm
http://sid.crsndoo.com/ (http://sid.crsndoo.com/) is where latest schematic, pcb, firmware can be downloaded from (Driver from this thread), and this driver can run both solomon and hakko .. no idea what's kada :(

here: http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/Open-S ... -1282.html (http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/Open-Soldering-Station-PCB-p-1282.html)
is the trough hole version od the pcb (made by dangerousprototypes)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Ramparts on May 02, 2015, 01:21:13 pm
Thank you for the reply.

i would post a url with the kada 852 station but the forum doesn´t let me :/
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 02, 2015, 02:06:04 pm
(http://http://i00.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/653/297/435/435297653_817.jpg) ???
that looks like HAKKO klon
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Ramparts on May 02, 2015, 02:45:26 pm
Yess !!!

that is the one !

do you think it could work with those irons ?

and i like the through hole project it´s a pitty that doesn´t have the pcb in pdf :/
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 02, 2015, 03:24:44 pm
that driver can run hakko but not solomon iron

the trough hole version have source in eagle so dl free version of eagle load the project and export as pdf (or whatever the proper way to "save as pdf" from eagle is, i don't use eagle)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Ramparts on May 02, 2015, 03:31:21 pm
So the original design can run both options like in the link you sent?
I Mean like the link that has the video tests.
I don´t use Eagle either i use DipTrace :/
But with pdf i can make a Pcb...
Maybe i will buy the pcb on the link you sent i just want to know witch is the best and the one that could offer me more iron possibilities.

:D

thank you for your reply´s
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on May 02, 2015, 03:57:16 pm
yes my design can run both, there's a jumper where you select if you are using TC or RTD sensor
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Ramparts on May 02, 2015, 04:02:47 pm
Despite of i like the latest pcb, i have to assume that your version is for last the easyest and the more simple to build ,and one thing that is difficult and anoy me is the projects that use coils,and your pcb doesn´t use any,so i am tempted to build yours.
can jumpers of your pcb be put in a case with switches for manually change them as i switch iron types?
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: pcbsmoke on May 10, 2015, 03:46:42 am
[quote author="pcbsmoke"]
I was planning on experimenting with a cheap 24v transformer + a Solomon SL-30 iron. I have a PID controller plus an SSR for the test. Now I am thinking that I must a.) check the output voltage from that transformer in the circuit when it is live and b) put a dummy load resistor on it to give it some load. I have a whole bag of power resistors from an earlier project ..[/quote]

In case anyone is interested I got around to testing that cheap transformer today. Ahri got me thinking...

The cheap 24VAC transformer output 26.7v - 26.8v unloaded. I tried a few combinations with dummy load resistors across the output leads and checked the voltage. They all got pretty hot even after only a few seconds. These were 10w power resistors (sand).

I decided to check the resistance of the soldering iron I was planning to use - a Solomon SL-30 iron. The heater on that iron was 13.1 ohms (cold). The voltage was 23.4v - 23.5v with a 15 ohm resistor. I also checked a 13 ohms combination of resistors in series (a 2 ohm resistor plus an 11 ohm resistor). The voltage with that combination was 22.8v - 22.9v.

If the resistance were to increase by 14.5% from cold (13.1 ohms) to hot (15 ohms) then the voltage from this transformer would still be under 24 VAC. I haven't measured the resistance of the soldering iron while it is hot, but it seems like the transformer will be okay.

I don't plan on connecting the dummy load resistor permanently. That was just for the test. I am thinking that the resistance from the soldering iron's heating element will be adequate.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: diogoc on May 10, 2015, 05:28:31 pm
That transformer shoud be ok. The tip is most of the time powered with a low PWM dutty, so the transformer is not allways with the maximum power.
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: rotaspec on September 23, 2015, 02:29:14 am
Hi all. Latecomer to this party but I have ordered a PCB from Seeedstudio.

I would like to know where I can download the source code to the firmware.
I need to alter it to suit the type of LCD (some 16x2 serial and some 16x1 parallel) that I have.
I tried the links but haven't found the files yet.
I have all the Microchip toolchains and a Pickit3.

TIA,
Gary
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: arhi on September 29, 2015, 06:04:33 pm
it's on sourceforge: http://sid.crsndoo.com/ (http://sid.crsndoo.com/)
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: radioelf on December 08, 2015, 06:51:05 pm
Hi.
Finally we it knows the type of thermocouple tip T12?. Thank
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: JanRy on June 29, 2016, 10:51:08 am
Hi all,
I know this is an old thread, but I hope someone still reads this and can help me.
I've just build the encoder version, but the encoder increments the values in both directions. What could be the problem?
I have uploaded the encoder firmware version.
Jan
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: JanRy on July 01, 2016, 09:52:59 am
Solved - by reducing the encoder pull-up resistors down to 4k7 (from 10k).
Title: Re: HAKKO (907ESD) and SOLOMON (SL-10/30) soldering iron dri
Post by: Harrie on July 10, 2016, 12:01:06 pm
Hi all,
Who can help me with the following problem:
Flickering display (16x2)
Soldering iron Driver V1.5 'Arhi'
Station built on schedule Soldering iron Driver V1.5 PTH cc-by-sa
http://dangerousprototypes.com (http://dangerousprototypes.com).
PCB ordered by SEED Open Soldering Station PCB (319010046)
Firmware version:
 SID 2014-06-21 bogdan-Kecman [R37] Debouncing modification added by maxxim
Software: MPLABX V3.35
Programmer: PICKIT2
No bootloader
24 Volt supply voltage AC, 10Ampere
Fuse 6 AT
MCU: PIC18F2550
Triac: BT139 (16A)
 Desoldergun 24v 80Watt.

  • The whole circuit checked for correct components (value) and connection.
  • adjustment according to data Bogdan Kecman.
  • The entire circuit works well, only the display flikkerd during a normal operation.
  • When the analog input is connect to the ground,  the display does not flikker.
  • When scrolling through the menu, or when making adjustments,  of calibrations the display does not flikker.
  • Have tried several 16x2 LCD displays (44780), has shown little effect.
  • Display COG 16x2 (nt7603 controller) the display does not flikker  when looked at straight form above, at a angle from below or above the display flikkers.
  • Several times i’ve adjusted LCD.c,have seen no change, so change dit back to original .
Did not mannage to fix the flashing display, what could bet he cause of this?
Harrie