Dangerous Prototypes

I can arrange a preorder of 3EEROM explorer board (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/2009/07/30/prototype-bus-pirate-3eeprom-explorer-board/) PCBs ($10) or kits ($15), prices include worldwide shipping. We need about 10 commitments for PCBs, and about twice that for full kits.

I don't know if this is still valid, but I would be interested in a 3EEROM explorer board as kit or assembled.

$10/pcb seems a little steep to me, given that shipping's about $3, and that they'll make 10pcbs for you through their Propaganda service for $49.  So, it seems like that "should" come in for more like $8.  For $10 I think that I'd prefer a board that's got perhaps >=10 footprints on it (temp sensors, ADC, DA, etc etc) for even more flavors of edutainment.

My $0.018 (now 10% off, limited time only)

I'm not setup to retail from my business (actually, I just can't), so everything has to go through Seeed. They list the extra PCBs from my orders on their propaganda service for $5-$6 each, and then shipping is $3 more. I'd buy the $49 service and give mine away, Seeed would be selling the extras.

You're right though, if I could just buy a panel and split it up they'd be less than a buck each. Maybe I should do that and just give out the kit for free? I'd have to eliminate the 1-Wire EEPROM, those seem way expensive (could be wrong), maybe a temp sensor instead? Any thoughts?

Edit: I just wanted to be clear that I don't get money from the extra PCBs they sell, but I guess Seeed uses it to subsidize the order.

I was thinking that there ought to be a better way for both you and Seeed to make something on the boards (or kits) within their existing structure.  My initial point was simply that the board's awfully small to be $7->$10, and hence not a great value for me personally.   However, if they're the 5 remainders from your Propaganda order , of course they're going to want to get $6-7+ for them, but that's their issue.

However, if you were inclined to run more of any similar design, I'd think that more people would be inclined to get one @$7->10 if they were laid out to support what you've got there already, plus perhaps a few of temp sensor, ADC, DAC, digipot, etc -- especially since Seeed probably charges about the same anyways.  Ultimately the reality is that a PCB is only a convenience here because these particular parts are trivial to wire-up.  So the value has to be there by having it be as useful for as many test devices as possible, or if it's going to be assembled as a long-lived educational tool.   In my mind, if they'd just let you step-and-repeat the original design even five-way, you'd both have more to sell/give away and net more on the deal.  However, I know that that's not how they want to do it. :-(

I was personally more interested in the PCB because I already have (samples of) the EEPROMs waiting to be spooned by my v3 BP.  For $4, I'd house my one or two devices in a socketed PCB to keep my breadboard clear, but not for $10.

Don't let me discourage you from spending $49 just so that they have something to sell and you to give away, because the economics of that don't scale particularly well.... -).  I was just trying to find a win-win-win for everyone, and am not sure that $10 for that particular PCB is it.

If the price is the same it could be interesting to do an all I2C board, with a place for the vast majority of common DIP devices wired to the same bus. I'm not sure where to start with that list. I'd be interested in any recommendations for ADC, DAC, digipots, etc.

Here's a list of parts from the manual that would probably be worth putting on a large PCB of footprints. It would be nice to have DIP and SOIC footprints for popular parts.

I2C
TC74 temperature sensor
PCF8574 IO expander
DS1077/1085 programmable oscillator
24LCxxxx EEPROM
DS1807 audio volume POT
LTC2631A DAC (?)
RTC (PCF8563/DS1307)
xxx(?) I2C to 1-Wire bridge

SPI
23K256 SRAM
LTC2640 DAC (?)
DS1801 audio pot
MCP6S26 programmable gain amplifier

1-Wire
Ds2431 eeprom
DS1822 temperature sensor
DSxxxx(?) ADC

PC Keyboard connector footprint

LCD adapter w/PFC8574 footprint

I probably went back and forth 2-3 times before I finally finished my previous message about what such a board might be.  Namely, is it just a motel for newly received parts until they get comfortable and find a permanent house to live in, or is it a educational omni-board that would be expected to house a wide-variety of parts "permanently" for demo/lab purposes?

Only in the latter case would it seem to me like a full kit could make sense.  Otherwise, as in my case, it would be a (perhaps socketed) PCB where I'd exercise my samples before they go into project specific protoboards.  And since I practically might only be interested in 1/3 of the devices in the full list above, I may not be a customer for a full kit of parts.

So, in the end, I'm totally at a loss to know if a full "Serial Explorer Kit" makes sense or not.  Clearly it could be a natural accessory to the BP, or dare I say it, the Arduino.  Were it both Arduino-shieldable as well as Pirate-boardable, its appeal might be significantly enhanced.

Your proposed list of parts is pretty much everything that I'd throw out there.  I'm loving the keyboard connector.  I might even suggest adding a tab on the PCB onto which a Wiichuck could be attached for cheap 3-axis I2C action.  Perhaps some type of waveform generator if that's not totally redundant w.r.t. a DAC.

The kit/PCB could also be a gentle introduction to SMT soldering for those so inclined.

Hi

Please count me in for a kit.

Cheers
Rubi

[quote author="ian"]
I can arrange a preorder of 3EEROM explorer board (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/2009/07/30/prototype-bus-pirate-3eeprom-explorer-board/) PCBs ($10) or kits ($15), prices include worldwide shipping. We need about 10 commitments for PCBs, and about twice that for full kits.
[/quote]

Count me in ...

Count me in as well. I'm a complete beginner and could use this.

[quote author="ian"]
Here's a list of parts from the manual that would probably be worth putting on a large PCB of footprints. It would be nice to have DIP and SOIC footprints for popular parts.

I2C
TC74 temperature sensor
PCF8574 IO expander
DS1077/1085 programmable oscillator
24LCxxxx EEPROM
DS1807 audio volume POT
LTC2631A DAC (?)
RTC (PCF8563/DS1307)
xxx(?) I2C to 1-Wire bridge

SPI
23K256 SRAM
LTC2640 DAC (?)
DS1801 audio pot
MCP6S26 programmable gain amplifier

1-Wire
Ds2431 eeprom
DS1822 temperature sensor
DSxxxx(?) ADC

PC Keyboard connector footprint

LCD adapter w/PFC
8574 footprint
[/quote]


Did this BP educational board ever get produced? ... it sounds perfect playing and learning with.
I would love to have one , to this end i would  even sponsor the upfront costs of a seed fusion run if there was a working design.

@poshpaws - I actually ended up making the board you describe, but without the SPI and Keyboard adapter. I'll try to get it out there soon.

I'd buy one too.

Bit of an old subject but is there anything progressing with these boards?
I'd definately be interested in ordering a couple, especially if they had a couple of each device (i.e. a couple of SPI, a couple of 1-wire components), after all, isnt that the benefit of these protocols, to access more than one device on the same bus (obviously using the same protocol)? And this board, along with the tutorials on the site would make a perfect example/starting point.
Maybe if two boards could be linked together extending the buses to other components??
I like the idea of the Wii controller connector as well.
I'm in the UK and would probably order 2 or three kits if they became available.

We did a redesign we're going to post in the forum this week. The through-hole parts were so expensive we should never get the assembeld or ket version to a reasonable cost. The new version has SMD footprints that will be mounted in the assembled version, and footprints for throuigh hole versions if you want to add your own or dump a chip.

Excellent. I am putting in an order for stuff at Seeed; is this where the boards will be sold? When will you have more info?

Will I be able to preorder this along with the rest of my stuff (including a BP v3!)?

Sorry for all the quesions!

Unfortunately no, I'll move the design to the forum tomorrow for public review, but it will still be a month or two before the PCBs are back and tested.

Cool, I will go ahead with my order anyway.
Look forward to seeing the designs later.

If you search on 3EEPROM on ebay, you can find a seller from Hong Kong selling the original 3EEPROM boards that are used in the Bus Pirate demo, if that helps

Yikes! $17, + $4 shipping. Almost as much as the Bus Pirate itself...

i am for one as well.

I am also a beginner, and would like a experimenters board that i could use to test out both the BP's capabilities and my capabilites as i learn with it.

It would help if someone could post a tutorial using a readily available and cheap board, the hands-on approach works.

Haven't checked price, but just saw this:

Demo: Sure-electronics DE-DP014

http://dangerousprototypes.com/2010/07/12/demo-sure-electronics-de-dp014/ (http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/2010/07/12/demo-sure-electronics-de-dp014/)

@mickm and tempmj: on the wiki there are a lot of demonstration using regular chips (some of them could be sampled for free or just shipping cost) This will give you basic knowlegde how to interface a chip with a particular bus. the demonstrations are here: http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Bus ... nstrations (http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Bus_Pirate#Chip_demonstrations) . Some of the demonstrations use an older syntax then the current firmware has a different output.

If I'm right there will be some demo boards to be released soon under the DP label which should you get going. However a  small  breadboard and a I2C or SPI eeproms (together with the datasheets) will also get you started. We made the firmware as robust and foolproof (not to harm anything) as we can (please note we are all human here ;))

@mickm: That cable isn't backwards. The only cable we support here is the cable that seed sells (I think you have a sparkfun edition). It is a long story and we did struggle a bit with it, but seeed is the official outlet, so that cable is supported. 

@liyin: that isn't a eeprom ;) I believe it is around 10-15U$ for two units without shipping (don't know anymore). They come with a demo board, which cycles through the ascii set (the onboard ascii set that is).

We try to do as much tutorials as we can but we also have a job besides DP and also need to innovate and make new designs. That link above shows a lot of demonstrations with chips that are very common/easily to get (samples or your local electrostore). Most of the v0 and v1 examples will work on the v3.. If something won't work please start a topic in de support section of the forum.

If you have a demonstration please notify Ian or someone else from the crew to add it and post it on the blog.

Ya, I wasn't sticking to the subject, the idea of tutorials & demo boards for the BP caught my attention. DP demo boards, sounds good.   :)
 
EDIT:  The DP Wiki is great, it puts the most important info in one place, and the clean looks really helps.

[quote author="liyin"]
Ya, I wasn't sticking to the subject, the idea of tutorials & demo boards for the BP caught my attention. DP demo boards, sounds good.   :)
 
EDIT:  The DP Wiki is great, it puts the most important info in one place, and the clean looks really helps.
[/quote]

I noticed that multiple times ;)

Time is not always on our side, but please have patience..

The new version came in. Pic attached. It'll be available as soon as I can test the SMD 1-wire chip.

---

The EEPROM board looks interesting - what IC's you plan on putting on there?
I also see a new PCB for the BP in there - only just got my BPv3 but might be putting a SEEED order in if these get produced!

I know its early days but do you have any rough dates for releases? Christmas in 4 months people!

3eeprom has 1-wire, I2C, and SPI EEPROMs. The new board has SMD versions to keep costs down, and through-hole versions if you want to read out your own DIP chips.

Hopefully this, the LCD adapter, and the programming adapter are on sale by the end of the month.

I might be waiting then. Makes more sense for me being in the UK to wait and put a large order in with SEEED to get the free postage (orders over $50 get free basic shipping for those that weren't aware).
Good stuff guys. Cant wait to hear more!

The 1-wire parts are really expensive. I wrote a discussion here:
http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/in ... opic=858.0 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/index.php?topic=858.0)

Do you have any thoughts about other parts you'd like on a demo board instead?

I dont know about which alternative components could be put on there but how about putting the traces, caps, resistors etc on the boards for the 1-wire components so that people can find and solder on their own stuff?
Maybe if there was space for two or three 1-wire components someone could stick an EEPROM and a temp sensor, mix the components and get a real expriance of the 1-wire system.

Yup, that's what we did.

I'm not sure if this is along the right lines or not, but did you mean alternative 1-wire components or did that include adding more i2c/SPI components in place of 1-wire stuff?
Because what I would like on one of these boards (and I know its not really an EEPROM) would be a RTC/Calendar. I don't know how much that would drive costs up? I'm sure the ones in the BP wiki weren't too expensive but I know keeping costs down is a concern and why the 1-wire components were scrapped.

That's perfect, basically anything non-1-wire. There are two RTCs that are pin-compatible (substitutable), that would be a perfect addition.

Same here.