Dangerous Prototypes

Dangerous Prototypes => Bus Pirate Support => Topic started by: DeathWolf on October 28, 2010, 05:07:03 am

Title: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: DeathWolf on October 28, 2010, 05:07:03 am
Is there any features in the v4 design that'll be present that wasn't in the v3? I've been told by someone to not buy the v3 since the v4 was coming out soon-ish... But if the v3 design has all the same features(it seems it can be updated to the v4 bootloader&firmware from what I read), then it wouldn't be a problem buying a v3 now, would it?

Thanks for any answers.
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: ian on October 28, 2010, 08:06:50 am
Hi DeathWolf - The v4 hardware design isn't finalized yet, and is still missing some key pieces like a bootloader. Once we actually have the hardware down, it will still lag behind the v3 capabilities wise until we work out a ton of new bugs.

V4 has a few new hardware features that can't be added to the v3 by software: on-board pullup voltage selection, native USB for faster binary mode stuff (when someone supports it), an EEPROM for some storage, two extra pins, and 4x the flash memory.

We'll continue to support the v3, the current firmware source supports both v3 and v4 so it's not a problem.

I wouldn't expect the v4 until next year, and then it will probably be another year before the firmware is running even partly as well as the v3. v3 will be the recommended hardware for a long time still.
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: shynecoleman on February 14, 2011, 09:18:01 am
I am waiting for the V4 as well.
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: chiva on April 15, 2011, 07:54:46 pm
That will be a nice piece of hardware when all of it's power is released.
Let's hope the software guys support the board in their applications
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: AdShea on September 02, 2011, 04:13:41 am
Is there a need for fast binary mode? Can't the USB-CDC stack do something like 10Mbps serial emulation?
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: ian on September 02, 2011, 06:54:42 am
The CDC stack can do around 1Mbps realistically, and it is double-buffered so it can probably sustain that. The binary mode will be able to take advantage of that too.
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: BrentBXR on November 19, 2011, 11:23:31 pm
The 4 sounds awesome. I own the 3.5b but I really dont mind waiting to purchase 4 also. My plan is to wait till the v4 is all worked out and working as well as the v3; as soon as its finished I am getting a v4 as well. Then I will simply upload the STK500 AVR programmer firmware onto the v3.5 and use it to program AVRs (Dont want that beautiful piece of hardware going to waste :) ) i mean to me just the on-board select-able pull-ups & of course alot more program space (which means more protocols and features from the community!) is worth purchasing the new version. Everything about it sounds awesome.

Ever since I got my Bus Pirate it as really inspired me to step my game up. All my best projects take alot of inspiration form the bus pirate (such as serial commands and syntax protocols( no more 1 char to do a function and nothing else; its awesome to send true commands to the AVR to send custom commands every time instead of pre-defined ones.), also something big on my own projects is now always starting in a 'safemode' which disables any functions that could possibly destroy the target, stuff like that.)

Anyone waiting for v4 is just silly! I mean the price is extremely reasonable. If the v4 was coming out within a month or something, then ok wait. but a year!? Its not like you wont find a use for the v3.
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: ian on November 20, 2011, 09:23:15 am
Thanks for the kind words :)
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: timotet on December 24, 2011, 07:48:40 pm
Hi
1st post here, thanks for all the great info.
Was wondering if version 4 was stable? I got a gift certificate to seeed and its time for a bus pirate.
thanks
tim
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: ian on December 24, 2011, 07:56:11 pm
V4 is stable-ish. Still plenty of features that don't work well, but we are fixing then really fast. I still think v3 is better, but in a year v4 (sooner with Brent's new features) will have stuff we can't do on v3.
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: timotet on December 24, 2011, 11:02:52 pm
thanks
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: cosminnci on December 27, 2011, 07:14:26 pm
on V4 the jtag part should the current how-to`s apply or does it need a different approach ?
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: ian on December 27, 2011, 07:28:43 pm
The JTAG terminal mode is included I believe, but OpenOCD jtag is not yet working because it uses some serial port hardware that we have not transferred to USB yet.
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: dgche8 on March 29, 2012, 09:48:18 am
Hello all!!

This is my 1st post and i am a complete noob to this wonderful world! I would like to purchase v4 of the BP but wanted to know if I should still wait? Thank you all in advance!!
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: ian on March 29, 2012, 06:03:09 pm
I would wait. There's still lots of little things about v4 that can make you miserable.
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: zeptonow on April 06, 2012, 12:02:19 pm
Hello
i am new too, or at least i think i will be.
[quote author="ian"]I would wait. There's still lots of little things about v4 that can make you miserable.[/quote]
What for example?
Are there going to be hardware changes, or just firmware issues?
If there are no hardware changes planned, why not purchase v4?
I assume you can help fixing bugs in v4 firmware without additional hardware (besides a computer), if you run into any problems, right?

bye

PS: The development bus pirate v4 kit at seeedstudio is assembled, right? I am not particularly good at soldering smd with my big shaking hands...
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: arakis on April 06, 2012, 12:10:02 pm
So far we haven't run into any hardware issues,the HW is fairly simple, and not much that can go wrong there, the plan is not to change the hardware much, we might change the PCB size etc...but the schematic or IO header pinout are not planed to be changed. If you'd like to play with it and try and help us develop it further, then defiantly go for the v4. there are still functions that have bugs in them, and some are not implemented yet side, but that's only the firmware.
IF you need the Bus Pirate as a reliable tool then go for the V3.

Yes the one that is on sale from Seeed is a fully assembled version..
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: zeptonow on April 06, 2012, 12:18:38 pm
thank you!
[quote author="arakis"]IF you need the Bus Pirate as a reliable tool then go for the V3. [/quote]
i definitely dont. Just thought it would be nice to play around a bit with controllers, flash roms, ...
[quote author="arakis"]Yes the one that is on sale from Seeed is a fully assembled version..[/quote]
I think i will try it out then.
bye
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: MichaelChen on October 21, 2012, 06:38:34 am
Well, same question as always. I've finally decided to buy a bus pirate, so I am debating between v3 and v4. I know that v3 is still the officially recommended one, but well, v4 is newer.

Anyways, I was wondering if the v4 can program an AVR and a CPLD (via JTAG), as those are the features I see myself using soon. Are these features working in the v4, or should I go for v3.
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: ian on October 21, 2012, 07:00:31 am
Both are not working in v4, best to go with v3
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: cohabo on November 12, 2012, 10:56:09 am
myMaidenPost: • Total members 2116 • Our newest member cohabo

Can't wait for the V4.
Excited about SDR.
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: torwag on November 21, 2012, 07:28:31 am
To all the V4 waiters...

Seriously, do not wait!

I know all those smartphone and tablet releases is poisoning peoples mind when it comes to release cycles and features releases. However the buspirate is NOT a smartphone or a tablet.
 
The V3 will always be functional and I assume that all features which will fit in the V3 will make it into the V3 even if V4 is officially out. It might has a few hardware-based features less compared to the V4, however, at the moment it is the stable reference platform, which even the V4 has to measure against.

Ian said it already, it will take the V4 a great amount of time to get close to the V3.

Early buyers might have to fight with bugs on the BP V4 rather then tackle bugs on there projects with the PB V4. Serious, having a buggy project and trying to tackle it with a buggy dev-kit is really frustrating! So stability and well tested performance is something you have to add to the V3 feature list !!!

This is open hardware, V4 is not a "Let's add a few more features and sell it again"-release. Its in many aspects a redesign and hence it will introduce its very own problems. The same problems and time consuming debugging it took the V3 to get as stable and useful as it is today.

And even if you are going to upgrade to the V4 anytime later, and do not see any need for having two buspirates in your toolbox, you can still hook-up the V3 permanently to a project to provide terminal-based low level access to your project.

We are talking here about $27.15 and not $300 or $600 dollars. If you wait a year for a more or less stable V4, you wait to save <$2 a month...

GET A V3 ITS AWESOME !!!
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: ian on December 05, 2012, 08:16:05 am
Thanks Torwag :)
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: Sleepwalker3 on December 20, 2012, 08:43:46 am
Thanks Torwag, I had been wondering myself whether V4 had got to being reasonably stable yet, so this is a great explanation of why you should still stick with a V3.x    I've known about the BP for ages, but only really realised today that it can program AVR's. I had been thinking about perhaps getting a USBtiny, but if a BP can do the same thing, then better to get that  :)
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: ibshadow on May 09, 2013, 07:00:10 pm
Hey guys can you tell me if Buspirate v3 or v4 can clone a DS1963 ibutton?  I have some equipment that is no longer supported by the manufacturers that i would like to make a backup copy of.
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: hftzfhz on December 29, 2013, 08:05:31 pm
So what is the current status of v3 vs v4? Which device would be recommended for a noob?
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: tayken on December 30, 2013, 06:41:38 am
v3 as it is stable. v4 is still "in development"
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: Rubi on January 21, 2014, 01:17:41 pm
I prefer the v4 version but it has a big drawback unfortunately.
The buspirate app does not really work with the v4 version.

Cheers
Rubi
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: ian on March 20, 2014, 08:37:29 am
I say go with v3. My plan is to make a polished "final" firmware for v3 soon, abandon v4, and then move to an all new v5. I'm frankly sick to death of dealing with USB on PICs.
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: arhi on August 31, 2014, 12:31:33 pm
so v4 is dead ... as expected, bp uses pps to get needed hw on same output pins and to change pin setup you have to reset, when you reset you kill usb connection ... has nothing to do with usb on pic but with design decision and way pps works ..

v5 will be ftdi again? maybe use some cheaper pic instead of ftdi for usb, then parallel connection to another pic for the work .. you get both fast transfers, full control and ability to use pps they way it works on v3 just with more flash and more speed and greater umpf
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: ian on August 31, 2014, 01:25:09 pm
You can change PPS on the fly, no problem. No reset needed. I never wanted to do a USB on-chip version, but tons of people pushed for it and I was stupid enough to follow the crowd instead of being the dictator of my project.

Its more these problems with v4 (all suck vs suck):
1. USB stack unstable, unmaintained open version vs closed unworkable undistributable microchip version
2. Speed sensitive things (SPI/I2C sniffing) take a huge hit on v4 due to USB overhead and lots of support questions about these
3. Development with active USB is a PITA, impossible to single step problems with any reliability
4. The extra flash in the PIC is (as i recall) not that easy to work with. You start to need stupid compiler tricks and stuff to address the top of it

We have a v5 with an ARM chip, but its so much more expensive - and - once we get enough flash to be useful, super more expensive (plus no PPS) :)

Currently, we are done with a redesign of the v3 using the cheaper, smaller FTDI x chip. It fits in a 5x5, and we're making a milled aluminum case for it. Slick, anodized black square with 1x10 pinout and laser etched labels on the pins.

I do like your idea of using a cheaper PIC instead of USB and making a parallel interface, that might get us somewhere, especially with a bigger, cheaper arm sans USB.
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: arhi on August 31, 2014, 01:55:54 pm
yup, usb on mcp sucks big time :( .. didn't know you managed to solve the pps restart issues .. cool
arm is too expensive unless you go cm0 with some prc manufacturer but then you have to purchase gzilion chips and support is zero so really not sure if that's the way to go ..

as for the usb part, mcp is shooting their usb2serial that's 18f something .. you can get usb capable pic for peanuts, way cheaper then ftdi and since you control firmware (even if you go with semiclosed mcp usb lib) you can get waaaaaaaaay more out of it then from ftdi ... I'd go with parallel communication, 8bit or 4bit depends on the chips .. for e.g. PIC16F1454 is ~1$, has USB and enough pins .. even if you go with SPI it can do 12MHz SPI!!! that's 1.4 megabytes per second (11mbps so basically just as fast as usb)!!! I doubt you need faster then that :D .. and for 1$ :) it's imo way better then any ftdi .. on the business side of the device .. well, that you have more experience for bus pirate then I do .. depends on what you want to achieve .. I'd personally go with XMOS just for kicks of it, it's great and interesting chip :D .. I would not go with arm .. I'd go either with XMOS + external flash or some pic with enough flash to put a lot of code in I can call from scripts.. it's really all about how you want to improve on 3b and what additional features you want .. XMOS is faster and more versatile then most of chips you can put there... it's on the other hand not nearly as easy to use as pic
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: Sjaak on September 02, 2014, 12:05:33 pm
I did play with the 16f1454 recently and it is a great bang for buck. There is a great bootloader for it: https://code.google.com/p/pic16f1454-bootloader/ (https://code.google.com/p/pic16f1454-bootloader/)
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: s7726 on December 18, 2014, 06:31:43 am
[quote author="ian"]Currently, we are done with a redesign of the v3 using the cheaper, smaller FTDI x chip. It fits in a 5x5, and we're making a milled aluminum case for it. Slick, anodized black square with 1x10 pinout and laser etched labels on the pins.[/quote]

Any idea when these might be available?
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: Coldblackice on April 11, 2015, 02:07:11 am
[quote author="s7726"][quote author="ian"]Currently, we are done with a redesign of the v3 using the cheaper, smaller FTDI x chip. It fits in a 5x5, and we're making a milled aluminum case for it. Slick, anodized black square with 1x10 pinout and laser etched labels on the pins.[/quote]

Any idea when these might be available?[/quote]

Wondering the same.
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: alank2 on June 09, 2015, 03:36:53 pm
So is the v4 a dead project at this point?  It is the only BP I have and it works fine for most things I've tried on it.  What does not work on it/is there a bug list for it?  Sometimes I'm tempted to get a v3 BP just so I've got the more stable version to work with...
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: dsummerbell10 on July 08, 2016, 11:26:25 pm
I was wondering the same thing as well if I should hold off or not. Thanks for the advice.
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: mikeb on September 09, 2016, 04:13:00 pm
[quote author="alank2"]So is the v4 a dead project at this point?  It is the only BP I have and it works fine for most things I've tried on it.  What does not work on it/is there a bug list for it?  Sometimes I'm tempted to get a v3 BP just so I've got the more stable version to work with...[/quote]
[quote author="dsummerbell10"]I was wondering the same thing as well if I should hold off or not. Thanks for the advice.[/quote]
No, it is not dead anymore! There is a new community project to make a good working stable firmware for BP v4
Firmware v7.0 is already available! ;) Please look - http://http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=8498
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: mopa7000 on May 26, 2019, 08:59:43 pm
[quote author="dgche8"]Hello all!!

This is my 1st post and i am a complete noob to this wonderful world! I would like to purchase v4 of the BP but wanted to know if I should still wait? Thank you all in advance!![/quote]
Is there any features in the v4 design that'll be present that wasn't in the v3? I've been told by someone to not buy the v3 since the v4 was coming out soon-ish... But if the v3 design has all the same features(it seems it can be updated to the v4 bootloader&firmware from what I read), then it wouldn't be a problem buying a v3 now, would it?
Title: Re: Buspirate v3 VS v4
Post by: radioaktivitat on July 29, 2019, 04:24:22 pm
Can i replace the PIC24FJ256GB106  to  PIC24FJ512GB610 ?
Does anybody use GB610 in v4 instead GB106?