It is fantastic that you are considering to be the liaison between us out in the West and Shenzen, however, I think others and yourself need to consider the time and effort on your side to package and re-ship the items to us. It takes a lot of effort to ship items let alone the time to create the proper export documents that you would have to generate... otherwise items could be stuck in the destination Country awaiting you (the shipper) to generate the appropriate docs...which will consume more of your time. There will be a lot of effort on your side beyond the purchasing of the gear that you and others should be aware of and I think that you may need to include some extra $$$ for your efforts... I prepare and ship a number of goods on a regular basis and I am constantly amazed at how much time this all takes... Just saying...
Anyway, wire transfers from Canada to Asia usually run about $45 and take anywhere from 15 to 30 minutes to process at the bank. Why so long? The Canadian banking wire transfer fields do not match to those in Asia and so it is a bit of a process. The $20 to $25 transfers mentioned by your manager is probably the cost for transfers to US destinations.
Sam
The bank wire transfers that I've been making are to Chinese PCB suppliers. I was pleasantly surprised at the cost - I had fully expected it to be in the $45 - $50 region based on past experience.
These wire transfers are being made from our US Dollar account. Like I mentioned earlier, wire transfers made from our Canadian Dollar account cost significantly more. I really have no idea why there is a difference. FWIW - we bank with Alberta Treasury Branch (ATB).
Something that that really frosts me is that I used to purchase PCBs made by a Chinese manufacturer but handled through a Canadian broker. The broker used to charge us for THEIR wire transfer fees to the manufacturer, which means that we paid wire transfer fees twice: to the broker as well as the broker's fee to the manufacturer. That only happened a couple of times before I found out about it - and it doesn't happen any more. I don't often get mad but that made me furious and I let everyone involved know exactly how I felt about it - including the PCB manufacturer. That policy changed soon after <grin>.
dwayne[/quote]
Good day Dwayne,
Good to know. Indeed, "our" Canadian banks like to sock it to us anyway they can... Thanks for the e-mail and I sent you one back.
[quote author="royco"]<snip> To make this sweeter, can somebody find a desktop sized wave solder machine or better yet a selective wave solder on the cheap for the through hole parts. <snip> [/quote]
Good day Royco,
Check Ebay often. I saw a desktop used wave soldering machine near the end of December and I think the bid price was about $1200 or so. Solder fountains appear less common, although Ebay had one for around $3600 or so.
[quote author="DwayneR"][quote author="ian"]Seeed is going to the factory on Monday and I have committed to buy one. Our goal is to get them at 3000 flat.[/quote]
Is there any chance that I can hop in with this purchase? I'd need to be able to arrange shipping to Edmonton, Canada.
I can do payment via PayPal or bank wire transfer - whichever is easiest. Bank wire is probably the least expensive, though. I think that our office manager says that it costs us something like US $20 to send a wire transfer in US Dollars. Oddly enough, it costs significantly more to send a wire transfer in Canadian dollars, even though its the same banking institution.
Anyway, please let me know. I'm also game for whatever accessories that others deem necessary.
Many thanks!
dwayne[/quote]
Good day Dwayne,
Small World... I do not know if you recall, but we met a number of times when I used to work at the AMC long ago...
Anyway, wire transfers from Canada to Asia usually run about $45 and take anywhere from 15 to 30 minutes to process at the bank. Why so long? The Canadian banking wire transfer fields do not match to those in Asia and so it is a bit of a process. The $20 to $25 transfers mentioned by your manager is probably the cost for transfers to US destinations.
As for the PnP, if you want to save some $$$ you will be welcome to use mine (Juki) once it arrives and I have it set up.
Good Day xinort, Excellent, thanks for the info and feedback! The machine looks very nice and obviously the manufacturer really thought it through. Cheers, Sam
Good day Ian and others that have seen and/or used this machine,
Does anyone know how the feeders advance? The commercial units use compressed air, but others I imagine may use a solenoid, etc. Also, how does the machine handle board registration (board edge, fixture hole, fiducial recognition, etc) as well as component picked misalignment (i.e. the machine picked up a part that was crooked in the feeder pocket)? Lastly, are the pickup nozzles changeable? I ask, as different nozzles are needed for different parts.
Good day All, I just returned from inspecting and training on the used Juki PnP that I will buying and mentioned in my earlier post. I am totally amazed and bewildered at all of the intricacies involved with how PnP is done, used, and what parameters need to be inputted. After training and seeing all of the details needed for PnP'ing I can now see the issues facing the smaller and less commercial devices available. That is not to say that the smaller devices should not be considered, but one should really know and understand their limitations. In my case after looking, analyzing, and now being somewhat trained on a commercial unit I am even more convinced that the unit I am going with is my best direction. My advice to other considering a PnP... ensure you understand the costs, benefits, and limitations of the machine you are considering. Cheers, Sam
[quote author="bearmos"]I haven't hunted around too much, but $10k for a lightly used single owner Juki 575 with feeders sounds phenomenal. I think this choice is a really good fit for your situation.
Thanks for sharing! btw, how did you come across the unit?[/quote]
Good day Bearmos,
Indeed, I think the price is excellent all things considered. The owner is fantastic to deal with and more importantly he will demonstrate and train me on the unit. Like I said, can better deals be found? Possibly, but in this case I am getting info and training right from the owner, as opposed to 2nd or 3rd hand knowledge and this is worth a lot to me.
As for my search... I have been scouring Ebay, the web, a few SMT forums, and e-mailed a few brokers in the last 7 weeks or so. There is a ton (no pun intended) of equipment out there with a range of capability, prices, and condition. The trick is to narrow your search based upon your placement needs, cost, size, and infrastructure needs (single phase/ Three phase, etc)... Cost is a big one and should include additional feeders, transport, and future serviceability. As for links I used the following:
[quote author="ian"]That commercial PnP machine did you end up getting?[/quote]
Good day Ian,
I am just finalizing the deal now, but it is a Juki 575. There are a variety of units available on the market, but the balance for me was cost, size (because of transport logistics), power needs (single phase as opposed to three phase), feeder package (which is important, as feeders can add up pretty quickly), etc. The Juki's are highly regarded, straight forward to program, spares/replacement parts can be easily found, etc. Although the 575 is a "smaller" unit it is by no means a light weight... it weights 450kg and 973mm x 843mmx 1680mm in size... Smaller meaning that it's placement rate and total installed feeder quantity is smaller compared to the higher end placement machines. For me that is fine, as I am only looking to use the machine for prototyping and low production needs and will still be using a ECM for medium to high volume requirements. About the price... I believe I am paying a fair price for the unit given all of the accessories, free training by the owner, and for a relatively lightly used unit from the original owner. Can better bargains be found? Sure, but then there is increased risk ... to me anyway. Transport is also a consideration, as the unit needs to be properly packaged (crated, etc) and co-ordinated with the (International) transport carrier. Not a big issue, but certainly extra effort and attention is needed.
Personally I do think there is a market for a new machine catered to people/companies like myself. I do think that this market is currently in its infancy and so that is the reason that there are few (new) devices available and so the current prices are reflective of this. Secondly, it is a niche market, as a PnP would not be used or needed by the general populous... and so again pricing will be higher because of the lack of economies of scale.
In regards to this $3600 PnP, or the ones from Madell, etc... Perhaps I would of purchased one had I been able to see, touch, and experiment with the unit. Sadly, one does not know the strengths or weakness of a product until one has some real hands on time with it. In my case there is just none available anywhere close to me and so far virtually 0 feedback I could find on the Madell units and only a few comments on the $3600 PnP... and even these comments are only from first usage/impressions... what will they be in 6 months or even 1 year from now? $3600 or $7500 (Madell) + shipping is fair amount of $$$ to spend based upon a product's "spec". Like I said before I am not trying to dissuade anyone from these units, but my previous comments are things that entered into my decision.
Anyway, If all goes well I should have the machine by months end or so and if there is interest by others in this thread I can post my experiences.
Just a follow up to reflect what we decided to do for a PnP machine... Looking at this one and few other similarly priced machines, I decided to break the bank and go with an older commercial PnP machine (about $10K). The issue I had with the smaller and less expensive units are their lack of adequate feeders and support for BGAs, etc. Also, some like the Madell unit look somewhat "flimsy" and for almost $8K. Adding feeders, etc and the cost was quickly approaching $10K... and I could not find any online reviews of this unit... too many unknowns for me given the $$$ involved. The $3600 unit looked solid and the videos certainly show it works quite well. However, the PCB mounting and registration system did not inspire confidence with me... and I really cannot see how it can handle BGAs given that I do not see a vision system or laser registration. Lastly, there is the issue of support... both technical as well as spares. Using a known commerical system provides a lot of resources if needed. That is not to say that this $3600 unit is bad or poor value, but is just a little to risky for me as well as lacks the features that I require.
It looks like someone took the initiative and is selling the TM220A on Ebay... for $5000 USD! That is a hefty mark up... The Ebay item is 150970514362. The ad does show some better pics and it looks like the machine has two placement heads which could explain the fast placement rate... whether it truly can do 7000 cph is another question. Secondly, it does not like the device uses any type of visioning system and so this would certainly limit the device's capability. That being said I think there is a market for a device like this, but not in this price point in my opinion.
Here are the specs from the Ebay ad: Version TM220A Applicable PCB 20mm*20mm～220mm*200mm XY axis moving range 305×350mm Z axis moving range 15mm Placement head quantity 2 Mounting capability 7000 components per hour Mounting accuracy ±0.025mm Applicable Components 0402-5050，SOP, QFN, IC Components supply configuration Tape reel, bulk package (IC) Tape width 8mm, 12mm, 16mm Feeders 16 External Dimension L 830mm×W 455mm×H 285mm Vacuum pump -92KPA (Mute type pump) Vacuum pump quantity 2 (included) Power supply 220V, 50Hz （convertible to 110V） Average working power 100W Weight 45KG (without packing: 25KG) Packing size 0.32m³
[quote author="jason"]Here's the completed jammer ready for mounting in my car (just in time for the holiday season when there is a lot more enforcement activity on the roads).
I measure an average current of 25 mA through each LED which is well under the 100 mA absolute maximum and corresponds to 250 mA of peak power given the 10% duty cycle on them. I could probably safely drive them even harder by using a smaller resistor but I don't want to do that until I've reduced the power dissipation of the 7805 further as it gets pretty warm to the touch with 15 volts on the input side.
Looking at the jammer with my IR-sensitive camcorder shows that the LEDs are extremely bright within their 20 degree beamwidth -- comparable to a 75-100 watt light bulb in terms of relative brightness on the display.
In the absence of anyone interested in doing formal testing with the unit, I'll be doing informal field testing myself over the months to come in combination with a Valentine One laser/radar detector and a V-8 pony car that likes to stretch its legs.
[/quote]
Good day Jason,
Great work! As a suggestion, you may wish to change out your linear regulator to a switcher, as this will reduce the heat dissipation quite dramatically... With the liner regulator you are dropping 13.8v - 5 v, or 8.8V which is a hefty amount. I would suggest you look at the LM2675 switcher IC (+ inductor, diode, etc) by National (TI), or the self contained modules by TI (i.e. PT5101 series), etc.
Secondly, you may wish to place a larger cap (47uf or 100uf) on your 5V rail in order to provide some localized charge for the LEDs... 0.1 uf are pretty small and really meant to reduce switching noise, etc.
[quote author="bearmos"] Wow, I'd be looking into doing small runs in house as well...that's considerably more NRE than I'm use to dealing with.
There's always this :) Really though, it seems like for one-off's assisted manual placement is a pretty good alternative when you take into account setup time for an automated machine. When you start talking about doing 16 boards at a clip, your techs might start getting a little upset though. Manncor has a commercialized version of the manual PnP(there are a few out there), but at > $4k it's a pretty hard sell.[/quote]
Good day Bearmos,
Just out of curiosity, what ECM NRE charges are you familiar with and also what part of the World are you located?
Indeed, I saw the DIY manual PnP and I may build one up to try... Certainly the price is right :) The commercial manual PnP would not be an option given their price point...
[quote author="kineteka"]We are seriously considering importing these and reselling them.
How many of you guys would be interested?
-Mike[/quote]
Good day Mike,
I cannot commit, as I am still exploring my options. Further because my needs would be for prototyping or low volume assembly, visioning would be a strong consideration (i.e. for BGA).
If I do decide on this device I will certainly let you know. Although it may just be easier for us to order directly, as we import overseas goods periodically and so are familiar with the logistics.
[/quote]